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-   -   The Book of C3G Destructible Object Rules (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55039)

Tornado September 24th, 2018 05:23 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Did not really see that. Pretty scary.

quozl September 24th, 2018 05:28 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
So this is the test before we said that Crowd Movement would not work on civilians occupying a vehicle?

EDIT: Nevermind. I misread the first line.

IAmBatman September 24th, 2018 05:55 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
It really shines with squads due to their ability to use it efficiently. Halfway through my second test, which is all hero, and it was KOed already without doing any damage.

quozl September 24th, 2018 06:06 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Maybe we should make it hero-only then....

Lazy Orang September 24th, 2018 06:23 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2225297)
Maybe we should make it hero-only then....

Before doing something that drastic, maybe give activating a vehicle a once-per turn restriction? I wouldn't be happy seeing an arbitrary restriction that means a beat cop can't drive a police car, a thug can't drive a getaway car etc..

Ronin September 24th, 2018 06:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
You could also just have moving a vehicle replace movement for the whole card, like Bats was saying. Softer restriction that doesn't eliminate squads driving cars, just keeps it from being super-efficient.

IAmBatman September 24th, 2018 07:50 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Second test is in. When looking at one fairly solid win where it outperformed Batman and one big loss where it basically did nothing I'd say the Sports Car is just going to perform better with squads as is. Being able to drive in and out of traffic and have other squaddies locking down heroes in engagement so that you get more Hit and Run rolls in makes Hit and Run very powerful. The Civilians in particular love it since they're basically all board control and cheap meat shields and lack the offensive punch that the Car provides so nicely.

The nerf Ronin mentioned would be my preference. I still think it'll perform better in certain armies, like the Civvie one, but I'm ultimately OK with that as long as it's priced appropriately.

quozl September 24th, 2018 09:02 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Let's try it out.

Yodaking September 24th, 2018 09:06 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I'm cool with that too.

Tornado September 24th, 2018 10:45 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Sounds worth a try.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2018 06:26 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Ok, y’all cook up the verbiage and I’ll rerun that Civvie match tonight with those rules to see what a difference it makes.

Yodaking September 25th, 2018 12:20 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Here are the current moving & exiting rules:

MOVING VEHICLES

In addition to the Size, Life, and Defense values contained on destructible object cards, vehicles have a Movement value.
After revealing an Order Marker on one of your Army Cards, before taking a turn with a figure you control occupying a vehicle, you may move that vehicle. You may only move a vehicle once for each Order Marker you reveal.
When moving the vehicle, follow standard movement rules, with one exception: vehicles do not make or receive leaving engagement attacks.

EXITING VEHICLES
After moving a vehicle you control, you may place a figure from the vehicle's Army Card on an empty space and adjacent to the vehicle. You may exit with any or all of your figures on the same turn. Figures cannot move during a turn in which they exit a vehicle.


I think it would need to be updated to something like this:


MOVING VEHICLES
In addition to the Size, Life, and Defense values contained on destructible object cards, vehicles have a Movement value.
After revealing an Order Marker on one of your Army Cards with one or more figures occupying a vehicle, instead of moving any figures on that Army Card you may move that vehicle once.
When moving the vehicle, follow standard movement rules, with one exception: vehicles do not make or receive leaving engagement attacks.

EXITING VEHICLES
After moving a vehicle you control, you may place a figure from the vehicle's Army Card on an empty space and adjacent to the vehicle. You may exit with any or all of your figures on the same turn. Figures cannot move during a turn in which they exit a vehicle.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2018 04:10 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Looks good to me. :up: Hoping to rerun my civilian test tonight.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2018 09:52 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Squads are no longer a concern. This totally nerfs them, in a good way. At least slow moving, melee squads like the Civilians. I suppose someone ought to still test the SHIELD Agents or someone like that.

I editing my test post to include my third test and attached my results to the OP.

Ronin September 25th, 2018 10:10 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Awesome. Thanks, Bats. :up:

Squads in cars were the big thing I wanted to hit in public testing. Glad to have that sorted out first-thing.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2018 10:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
They should still have decent efficiency with ranged squads, but as long as there's a mult-attack hero ready to take out a bunch of squads that are in position, giving up your full move is a lot.

Yodaking September 25th, 2018 10:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Would you ever have the Hired Guns jump into a van and ride across the board or up to the top of a hill, then jump out and attack?

IAmBatman September 26th, 2018 07:42 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Maybe. Depends on how far away you want to get them. They have to spend a turn piling into the car, which means they will probably leave some initial movement spaces on the table to do so. On a large enough map, though? Sure.

Scapemage September 26th, 2018 11:29 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
1-2 in the new tests, but within a fair margin each time. The Civilians weren't as strong as I thought they might be, especially after the squad balancing. I think it's looking good so far. 150 seems fair thought we may need lots of tests on this one to iron out rules kinks.

IAmBatman September 26th, 2018 12:38 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I'd like to see a test done with a ranged squad by one of the remaining testers, hopefully, but otherwise I'd say it's pretty close. If anything, 150 feels a tad high right now (discounting that first Civvie test where they were unrestricted).

IAmBatman October 13th, 2018 05:44 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Just need one more tester, I think, and we could move this forward. :-) Once these two existing VDOs are costed, I'll have a long enough runway to do the Batmobile.

Ronin October 16th, 2018 03:53 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Tests from LordVenoc:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordVenoc
Here is the test. I really want to like this, but sadly didn't. If anything here seems off from what you were going for with this, let me know and I can retest. Let me know if there are any questions.

Spoiler Alert!


IAmBatman October 16th, 2018 08:15 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Well that's definitely a bummer. What are your thoughts here, Ronin?

Ronin October 17th, 2018 04:18 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I've been mulling it over and I'm kind of mixed. On the one hand, I don't think he was optimally playing the car. On the other hand, 'difficult to play optimally' isn't exactly a feature.

I do feel like some of his complaints are a little contradictory, though, and sort of cancel each other out. It's a bit unfair to say that it's inconvenient to use and also that you have to babysit the thing to keep the opponent from stealing it - why do they want it and why do you want to protect it, if it's such a pain?

I do think a small point drop might not be a bad idea. I'd really like another test from an Ally to get more perspective from someone who wasn't part of the development here.

Lazy Orang October 17th, 2018 04:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2230262)
I've been mulling it over and I'm kind of mixed. On the one hand, I don't think he was optimally playing the car. On the other hand, 'difficult to play optimally' isn't exactly a feature.

I do feel like some of his complaints are a little contradictory, though, and sort of cancel each other out. It's a bit unfair to say that it's inconvenient to use and also that you have to babysit the thing to keep the opponent from stealing it - why do they want it and why do you want to protect it, if it's such a pain?

I do think a small point drop might not be a bad idea. I'd really like another test from an Ally to get more perspective from someone who wasn't part of the development here.

One of the least thematic and most frustrating aspects (from having played them without the drafting options) is how poorly it works with bonding - figures can't be within X spaces or clear sight of other figures for bonding, which makes a lot of synergy bloody frustrating. Is there a potential work-around here?

Scapemage October 17th, 2018 04:30 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I agree. The comments are concerning but I'd like to see more plays from people who don't have the insider context as to why we're making the changes.

Yodaking October 17th, 2018 04:35 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Well, since you are paying to draft the car can't we say only your figures have the keys needed to drive it? That would eliminate the 'babysitting to prevent your opponent from running you over with your own car' issue.

Scapemage October 17th, 2018 04:44 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2230274)
Well, since you are paying to draft the car can't we say only your figures have the keys needed to drive it? That would eliminate the 'babysitting to prevent your opponent from running you over with your own car' issue.

I don't think I realized we didn't have this rule. In fairness when we have figures who place glyphs on the board, they are fair game for all, but they don't cost points. In this situation the gameplay experienced is soured by creating a new point of contention on the map.

Lazy Orang October 17th, 2018 04:49 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2230274)
Well, since you are paying to draft the car can't we say only your figures have the keys needed to drive it? That would eliminate the 'babysitting to prevent your opponent from running you over with your own car' issue.

It also eliminates a large part of the fun of having them around and the ability to place them on the map as terrain you can interact with. I'd rather drop their cost than do this.

Scapemage October 17th, 2018 04:56 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2230285)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2230274)
Well, since you are paying to draft the car can't we say only your figures have the keys needed to drive it? That would eliminate the 'babysitting to prevent your opponent from running you over with your own car' issue.

It also eliminates a large part of the fun of having them around and the ability to place them on the map as terrain you can interact with. I'd rather drop their cost than do this.

They can be separate things, I think. If I pay the point cost for a VDO, I bring it with my army and it's mine to use, but I can always just throw some VDOs into a map for fun. In this instance they wouldn't be player locked since nobody would be paying points for them.

Lazy Orang October 17th, 2018 05:02 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scapemage (Post 2230288)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2230285)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2230274)
Well, since you are paying to draft the car can't we say only your figures have the keys needed to drive it? That would eliminate the 'babysitting to prevent your opponent from running you over with your own car' issue.

It also eliminates a large part of the fun of having them around and the ability to place them on the map as terrain you can interact with. I'd rather drop their cost than do this.

They can be separate things, I think. If I pay the point cost for a VDO, I bring it with my army and it's mine to use, but I can always just throw some VDOs into a map for fun. In this instance they wouldn't be player locked since nobody would be paying points for them.

I still think the ability to commandeer someone's car is just too fun and evocative to ditch. :shrug:

Tornado October 17th, 2018 05:11 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
You could make it so it starts as only for one army but add in a Hotwire power to allow a chance for another team to steal it.

Yodaking October 17th, 2018 05:24 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scapemage (Post 2230288)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2230285)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2230274)
Well, since you are paying to draft the car can't we say only your figures have the keys needed to drive it? That would eliminate the 'babysitting to prevent your opponent from running you over with your own car' issue.

It also eliminates a large part of the fun of having them around and the ability to place them on the map as terrain you can interact with. I'd rather drop their cost than do this.

They can be separate things, I think. If I pay the point cost for a VDO, I bring it with my army and it's mine to use, but I can always just throw some VDOs into a map for fun. In this instance they wouldn't be player locked since nobody would be paying points for them.


Yup, you draft it and it's yours for the game. When no one drafts it, it's still up for grabs by either team. Right now we are just talking about a Sports Car, but since the plan is to introduce combat vehicles like helicopters and tanks for certain people to draft and use, then I'll never draft one of those figures if my opponent can easily just use my helicopter or tank against my own units.

IAmBatman October 17th, 2018 08:22 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I know that if/when I do a Batmobile there'll be restrictions in the powers to protect it from being stolen. I do think that restricting use by the other team could open up interesting design areas for hot-wiring powers.

But, honestly, I think the key is that if you're going to bring a vehicle to play, plan to use it. The sports car is never going to be worth its value for transportation. Not on any but the hugest maps. The only reason to bring it is to spam hit and run, which means keeping a driver in the car.

quozl October 17th, 2018 09:02 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I think it's sad that nobody has thrown the car yet in any of the playtests.

IAmBatman October 18th, 2018 08:17 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Yeah, I could see that. I was more focused on using it as a vehicle.

I wonder if we couldn't find a middle ground on the control issue and create a power like this:

ANTI-THEFT SYSTEM
If this Sports Car is in your Army and there are no Wound Markers on this card, another Player's figure may not enter or occupy this Sports Car.

So basically you only get in if you break in?

Tornado October 18th, 2018 09:26 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Oh I like that. It leaves space for a Hotwire power.

Lazy Orang October 18th, 2018 09:59 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2230478)
Yeah, I could see that. I was more focused on using it as a vehicle.

I wonder if we couldn't find a middle ground on the control issue and create a power like this:

ANTI-THEFT SYSTEM
If this Sports Car is in your Army and there are no Wound Markers on this card, another Player's figure may not enter or occupy this Sports Car.

So basically you only get in if you break in?

I could live with that as a compromise.

Yodaking October 18th, 2018 03:05 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Would that be a power on every card then or just a general rule for VDO's added to the rule book?

IAmBatman October 18th, 2018 07:30 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
It’d be a power to add as appropriate and desirable. The Mole Machine might work completely differently.

I hesitate to further complicate the base rules if we can avoid it.

Ronin November 12th, 2018 06:19 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I didn't forget about this!

(Okay, I did a little bit. I gotta refresh myself on what's going on here, though - thoughts on any course corrections later tonight)

Ronin November 12th, 2018 08:38 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2230478)
Yeah, I could see that. I was more focused on using it as a vehicle.

I wonder if we couldn't find a middle ground on the control issue and create a power like this:

ANTI-THEFT SYSTEM
If this Sports Car is in your Army and there are no Wound Markers on this card, another Player's figure may not enter or occupy this Sports Car.

So basically you only get in if you break in?

I'd be willing to give that a shot. I'm not sure it would make a huge difference, but if it provides some deterrent to an opponent just running a Civilian into it when you leave it unoccupied, it's probably not all bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2230802)
Itd be a power to add as appropriate and desirable. The Mole Machine might work completely differently.

I hesitate to further complicate the base rules if we can avoid it.

Agreed, especially with the bold.

My one hesitance on accepting the Anti-Theft System power was that I was thinking we might be setting ourselves up to have to do something similar on a lot of future vehicles.

But there is room to shake it up, like you said, and I can see some of the really character-specific vehicles having restrictions on who can operate them anyway.

Yodaking November 12th, 2018 09:26 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Yeah, not just anybody should be able to jump into a tank or helicopter and how to make it work. Really even just something like a big rig semi or construction vehicle is something that would be difficult for an untrained human to use effectively while under the pressure of a combat situation much less an alien from another world. Tons of people don't even know how to work a clutch, so you could restrict the Sports Car some by saying it's a manual transmission rather then automatic.

Just a general interest question, Star Lord left Earth long before he was old enough to drive, so if he returns to Earth for the first time as a 30 year old man and he jumps into a car, how bad of a driver is he going to be?

Tornado November 13th, 2018 08:28 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Earth is the only planet with cars in the Marvel universe?

Tornado November 14th, 2018 11:16 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
So what should I test to wrap this up?

Lazy Orang November 14th, 2018 11:20 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2235798)
Earth is the only planet with cars in the Marvel universe?

Probably not, but it's likely that they wouldn't all work the same way.

That being said, that's a situation where even a theme nerd like me has to call that it's a game, not a simulation. Besides, almost anyone probably could drive - they'd just be a danger to themselves and others, but in the midst of battle I don't imagine proper road safety will be a high priority. :)


(Bearing in mind this comes from someone who does not and will never drive...)

Scapemage November 14th, 2018 12:51 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I agree. Most heroes I'd anticipate being able to figure it out to a sense enough to drive across a reasonably sized battlefield. It would be a cool thing to do in another game (even Classicscape) where home planets are provided for every unit to restrict the ability to certain planets, but we don't have that luxury here.


Tornado, we've seen a lot of Civilian tests, but not yet tests with other common heroes. Low cost ones such as the zombies might be worth a try to see if pairing the car with a 50-point Walker is worthwhile.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2235950)
(Bearing in mind this comes from someone who does not and will never drive...)

I'm curious here, why don't / won't you ever drive? I realize I do not know your exact age nor the laws of the UK regarding driving.

Lazy Orang November 14th, 2018 02:51 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scapemage (Post 2236001)
I agree. Most heroes I'd anticipate being able to figure it out to a sense enough to drive across a reasonably sized battlefield. It would be a cool thing to do in another game (even Classicscape) where home planets are provided for every unit to restrict the ability to certain planets, but we don't have that luxury here.


Tornado, we've seen a lot of Civilian tests, but not yet tests with other common heroes. Low cost ones such as the zombies might be worth a try to see if pairing the car with a 50-point Walker is worthwhile.

Even a Homeworld designation in Classic wouldn't work for me. Not buying that a Human from Toril can't work out how to drive something if you then make it so a Roman Legionnaire can....

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2235950)
(Bearing in mind this comes from someone who does not and will never drive...)

I'm curious here, why don't / won't you ever drive? I realize I do not know your exact age nor the laws of the UK regarding driving.
I have no interest in doing so - I've never got along with cars (I remember they used to make me feel queasy when I got into them when I was tiny), the idea of controlling a gigantic chunk of metal moving at terminal velocity that could easily kill myself and others terrifies me and I find it much more fun and relaxing to use public transport. (The fact that I live in a small market town I can traverse in under an hour also helps. :)) The cost of running a car also seems prohibitive - even with the ridiculous costs of public transport these days, that's still likely more cost effective, and, as I said, more enjoyable.

~Lazy Orang, sorely tempted to just make up crap about UK driving law and troll you into believing it. :razz:


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