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Yodaking September 12th, 2018 11:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I was on the other side of the debate from Japes on this one.

IAmBatman September 13th, 2018 06:11 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Yeah, I think it was LO, not Yodaking. :2cents: Though I'm sympathetic to points being made there as well.

I'll make testing her next up after Atlantean Palace Guards. I would've prioritized it, but I thought things were still in flux.

japes September 13th, 2018 08:31 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2222026)
Your objection has been noted, japes. If there are a large number of objections, we should look into revising the rules. However, if it's just you and Yodaking, I think we should move forward.

As it should.

quozl September 13th, 2018 08:52 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2222027)
I was on the other side of the debate from Japes on this one.

Oops! Sorry about that. I misremembered.

Ronin September 15th, 2018 12:05 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2222019)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2221977)
Cool. :up: Did we want to make any other tweaks to the VDO rules, such as increasing potential damage for passengers? Or is that change sufficient?

I think we'll need more playtesting to make that determination.

We could make that tweak if we wanted to shoot a little cheaper for the vehicles, or if testing shows the price of the Sports Car creeping up past 150.

I wouldn't jump to it mainly because it's not an immediately necessary balancing measure without special powers in vehicles, and it would be kind of a blow to Commons/Squads operating vehicles. (And I can foresee some really thematic possibilities in that arena, like a Blackhawks squad)

So with the ruleset seeming mostly settled here... let's move the Sports Car to public testing.

Yodaking September 15th, 2018 01:35 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (VOTE Public Testin
 
If you need a vote, I've been following along enough to give you a yea.

I was thinking the other day about a driving a bulldozer through the Warehouse Ruins breakable wall DO and knocking down other DO's like trees.

IAmBatman September 15th, 2018 09:30 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (VOTE Public Testin
 
Cool with this direction. :up: If/when it gets to public testing it is high on my priority list.

Scapemage September 15th, 2018 10:43 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (VOTE Public Testin
 
Testing can't be a bad thing. yea

quozl September 15th, 2018 10:46 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (VOTE Public Testin
 
Yea, baby!

IAmBatman September 19th, 2018 07:49 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (VOTE Public Testin
 
Make this an official yea from me, and this passes to public testing.

Ronin September 19th, 2018 10:48 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Awesome, I'll post it up in the testing thread.

Thanks for the bump, Bats.

IAmBatman September 19th, 2018 11:44 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
No worries. :up: I've been keeping this one on my radar to clear the streets for an eventual Batmobile LD.

IAmBatman September 20th, 2018 08:16 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Any recommendations on who to test the Sports Car with? Not OM hubs for sure. With the no special powers rule I guess it would be mostly not very mobile melee figures who want to get into the battle fast?

Yodaking September 20th, 2018 08:20 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Since using it as armor is a concern, I'd certainly draft it with low defense low life melee figures vs. ranged attackers. Drive up using the car as armor vs. the ranged attacks, then jump out and punch away.

Yodaking September 20th, 2018 08:24 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Can we get the current rules being tested linked to the FP.

Ronin September 20th, 2018 08:32 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Good idea! Added.

Also threw in some bullet points on some of the tweaks that have been discussed.

Yodaking September 20th, 2018 09:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Thanks!

Bats, (and any other heroes that were around back then) when the rules were first created was the idea of trying to run over people while driving a car ever discussed?

Ronin September 20th, 2018 09:27 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
The Sports Car has that as a special power, rather than having that baked into the rules.

I think that makes sense - it's the big thing for a regular car, but the Mole Machine, for instance, can focus on something else without the overhead of trying to mow people down.

Yodaking September 20th, 2018 09:39 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
That makes sense. I just really want to run some one over with a Zamboni machine being driven by Deadpool so I guess I'll have to get working on a card.


http://img.ifcdn.com/images/7553544a...946c5939_1.jpg


Steamroller might make for a better DO though.


http://i.imgur.com/HJDDKMN.jpg

IAmBatman September 21st, 2018 10:40 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Yep we did it in the special rules, ultimately (there was some discussion but we didn’t want to go too complex).

I’m struggling to come up with good builds that make these worth 150 points when you have to be temporarily nullified to use them. I’d love some army build suggestions here as I’m drawing a blank.

Ronin September 21st, 2018 10:45 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
This is what I came up with when I was brainstorming builds for the initial:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2216137)
Finally putting armies together for the initial (I know, running behind). This is what I have so far:

Sports Car, Conan, Mantis, Zombie (670)
Sports Car x2, Walker x4, Selene, Jubilee, Lurker x2, Roamer, Skrull Infiltrator (1000)
Sports Car, Lady Blackhawk, Rover, Sage, Selene, Jubilee (1030)
Sports Car, Mantis, Zombie, Larfleeze, Alien Drone, Atom (1000)
Sports Car x2, Alien Drone x4, Robot, Skrull Infiltrator (1000)
Sports Car, Star-Lord, Nebula, Mantis, Stature (1000)

Kinda playing around with the possibilities. The way the vehicle rules work, a lot of OM hubs don't let you take a turn with a figure occupying a vehicle, but I did find a couple things of note:

-Mantis can move OMs to the card of a figure occupying a vehicle (Sage can't)
-If Rover's Companion is in a vehicle, you can reveal an OM on his Companion's card and choose whether to take a turn with Rover or his Companion

Beyond that, some strategies:

-Exploiting the DOs for Selene's auto-wounding power
-Leveraging multiple movements or activations to quickly load up cars (Lurkers + Walkers, Robot + Alien Drones)
-Drafting figures that might not mind taking a wound when a vehicle is destroyed (Conan, Alien Drones)
-Leveraging the mobility from vehicles for bonding pairs (Star-Lord + Nebula)

I'll start running the games either tonight or tomorrow morning. Open to other suggestions.

I didn't really mess around with squads operating vehicles, so that could be something to play with.

Ronin September 21st, 2018 10:47 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I don't feel like you need anything too juiced to make the Sports Car a decent value, though. Just throw a ground-pounder or two that appreciates the mobility in there and it can do pretty decently for you, between the mobility and the auto-wounds.

Scapemage September 21st, 2018 04:19 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I wonder if it would be any good to run some sort of Civilian army where you have a bunch of low cost squaddies driving around beefy cars. There's enough Civilian support in game to at least play with the idea.

IAmBatman September 21st, 2018 04:20 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Hmm, I might try that. I'm thinking I'm going to try pretty low point tests for this.

Tornado September 21st, 2018 05:32 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Torq it up! :)

IAmBatman September 21st, 2018 05:47 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I'm going lazy/cheap on this. Not learning new figs or printing new cards. It'll be enough to keep the finer points of the VDO rules in mind.

Tornado September 21st, 2018 05:48 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Probably a good idea. :)

IAmBatman September 21st, 2018 05:50 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I'll be lucky if I mess up fewer than half a dozen things. :-P

IAmBatman September 22nd, 2018 11:47 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Got one quick test in tonight with another lined up for tomorrow, hopefully. The car is coming in strong so far, with the Civilians pairing up nicely.

I'm not 100% sure I played the test right as the car's special power nullification shouldn't affect a figure being activated through Crowd Movement, I don't think, but it's possible that I should've attacked once less an Order Marker with the Civilians as a result of the powers not working in the car thing (i.e. I moved the car with a Civvie and since I activated them with a move and since their Crowd Movement wouldn't work, I'd be committing to attacking with them instead of the Civvies outside?).

I'm honestly not sure how that works and it might've made it slightly closer if I weren't attacking all four times while also driving around. I definitely didn't have any Civilians in the car contribute to Strength in Numbers or move with Panic, though. Those two are plenty clear.

quozl September 23rd, 2018 12:06 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
That is weird. To me, it looks like you could still move with 8 citizens you control and attack with any 4 citizens you control but since you don't control the civilians in the vehicle, they would not be among that number.

IAmBatman September 23rd, 2018 08:18 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Hmm so if I reveal the Order Marker on the Civilians and move the car rather than moving a Civilian in the car, at that point did I cut off the rest of my turn? Or can I still activate seven other non-car Civilians since the power still affects them?

IAmBatman September 23rd, 2018 08:49 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
OK, I probably had a tad more of a margin of victory than I should have with the Civilians (probably not by much, though) due to being a bit unrestricted with Crowd Movement. Here's how I'm translating the way I should have played it, though:

Quote:

CROWD MOVEMENT
You may move up to 8 Civilians that you control each turn. However, you may attack with only 4 Civilians, even Civilians that you did not move this turn.
If a figure inside the car is nullified, they don't have this power. But they're still a figure in a four figure squad. So as long as four other figures haven't moved yet, they're eligible to move and drive/exit the car. For other Civilians on the map, so long as fewer than 8 Civilians, including ones in the car, have moved (which includes driving/exiting the car) they're still eligible to move. This would have affected some of the timing of what I did with them and would've made some moves I made ineligible, but I think it was mostly order of operations rather than what I accomplished on an Order Marker, so probably not a big deal in terms of game results.

I'm hoping to get feedback on whether you all feel I'm translating things correctly here! :-) Weird interaction for sure.

Tornado September 23rd, 2018 08:57 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Going to need a rules lawyer here. I think you are on the right track.

quozl September 23rd, 2018 10:26 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2224909)
Going to need a rules lawyer here.

Thanks! I'm on the job.

Here's the vehicle rule:
Quote:

After revealing an Order Marker on one of your Army Cards, before taking a turn with a figure you control occupying a vehicle, you may move that vehicle. You may only move a vehicle once for each Order Marker you reveal.
And here's Crowd Movement:
Quote:

After revealing an Order Marker on this card and instead of moving normally, you may move up to 8 Citizens you control. Instead of attacking normally, you may attack with any 4 Citizens you control, even Citizens that did not move this turn.
So to use Crowd Movement, you have to control all citizens that move. If they are inside a vehicle, you do not control them. Notice that the vehicle rules themselves contradict this by saying "you control occupying a vehicle". That's actually impossible!

Yodaking September 23rd, 2018 10:58 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Why would you not control your figures in the vehicle? Your' opponent doesn't control them and they are not dead or otherwise incapacitated.

Ronin September 23rd, 2018 11:18 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
You only 'control' figures on the battlefield. If a figure's off the battlefield, no-one controls it, even if it isn't destroyed.

It's part of why we defined 'in play' to include undestroyed figures that aren't on the battlefield - it gives a good shorthand that includes those figures.

Yodaking September 23rd, 2018 11:28 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
So then the rules need to be amended to refer to those figures in cars as figure in play rather than figures you control right?

IAmBatman September 23rd, 2018 12:54 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2224922)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2224909)
Going to need a rules lawyer here.

Thanks! I'm on the job.

Here's the vehicle rule:
Quote:

After revealing an Order Marker on one of your Army Cards, before taking a turn with a figure you control occupying a vehicle, you may move that vehicle. You may only move a vehicle once for each Order Marker you reveal.
And here's Crowd Movement:
Quote:

After revealing an Order Marker on this card and instead of moving normally, you may move up to 8 Citizens you control. Instead of attacking normally, you may attack with any 4 Citizens you control, even Citizens that did not move this turn.
So to use Crowd Movement, you have to control all citizens that move. If they are inside a vehicle, you do not control them. Notice that the vehicle rules themselves contradict this by saying "you control occupying a vehicle". That's actually impossible!

Ah, gotcha, so I canít activate both the car and Crowd Movement on the same Order Marker because both are essentially instead of moving normally.

OK that invalidates my first test (I will retest) and makes me think I would probably never draft the car and civilians together, due to the importance of crowd movement to them.

So with the rules is it instead of moving normally with just that figure or instead of moving normally with the whole squad?

Ronin September 23rd, 2018 01:22 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2224959)
So with the rules is it instead of moving normally with just that figure or instead of moving normally with the whole squad?

I took it as the former, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure I did my due diligence and looked at the old Sports Car/Mole Machine tests to see if it came up (or whether it was addressed in the design threads).

Definitely worth clarifying either way, while we're tinkering around with the rules.

IAmBatman September 23rd, 2018 01:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I think it is the former too and what’s happening here is that Crowd Movement is the latter. So you could drive the car with a Civvie and move three other figures, but couldn’t use Crowd Movement for the full 8.

Yodaking September 23rd, 2018 03:36 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Might be too late now, but I kind of feel only heroes should be jumping into the cars and driving around. It's not that a common street thug can't drive, it's more of a mechanical issue where I wouldn't want to see a 3-4 figure squad driving around in 3-4 different vehicles all on the same turn, so the theme would be that squad figures just don't take the individual initiative to jump into a vehicle while a hero does have individual initiative.

IAmBatman September 23rd, 2018 04:12 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Well we could solve that by making it instead of moving normally with the whole card, I guess. I’ll need a decided upon direction for that before I can do any more squad testing.

quozl September 23rd, 2018 06:08 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2224971)
I think it is the former too and whatís happening here is that Crowd Movement is the latter. So you could drive the car with a Civvie and move three other figures, but couldnít use Crowd Movement for the full 8.

This is what I am assuming to be the case (and the intent).

IAmBatman September 23rd, 2018 07:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Yep. And I think that would’ve made my test much closer. Do we want to forge ahead as is or nerf squads any by making it instead of moving normally for the whole card?

quozl September 23rd, 2018 07:56 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
I don't see a reason to nerf squads yet.

Yodaking September 23rd, 2018 08:06 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
If we create tanks or helicopter gunships that provide a SA option in the future, then we should be sure to require at least 2 figures in the vehicle to use the SA then. One driver, one gunner. That will at least keep the 4 figure common or unique squad limited to only driving and shooting with 2 tanks or helicopters per OM instead of 4.

IAmBatman September 23rd, 2018 08:21 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Sounds good. The special power nullification already cuts out abuses by turn bonding heroes.

IAmBatman September 24th, 2018 03:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)
 
Even with the change, the Civilians really like a Sports Car to drive around. I did, notably, go 6/7 on the 50/50 Hit and Run roll, so that affected these tests, but I also improved my win margin from the prior test did to the power of an unwounded, never activated Huntress.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: SPORTS CAR

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Civilians (x4), Huntress, Sports Car (150) (500) vs Batman (200), Robin (Dick Grayson) (100), Green Arrow (150) Atom (50) (500)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________
Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Human Torch (225), Sports Car (150), Thing (325) (700) vs Black Canary (190), Oracle (110), Green Arrow (150), Red Arrow (150), Robin (Dick Grayson) (100) (700)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

AFTER CHANGE TO SQUAD MOVEMENT

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Civilians (x4), Huntress, Sports Car (150) (500) vs Batman (200), Robin (Dick Grayson) (100), Green Arrow (150) Atom (50) (500)
Spoiler Alert!


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