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-   -   The Book of C3G Destructible Object Rules (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55039)

Scapemage March 13th, 2019 09:44 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
Yea to more testing with this. It seems more sound.

Tornado March 13th, 2019 10:07 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
Still waiting on a ruling for throwing figures into cars.

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 11:16 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2263077)
Still waiting on a ruling for throwing figures into cars.

I've given mine. I guess it's a matter of whether folks agree with me or not.

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 02:31 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
@Ronin @quozl you two are good with rules clarifications. Any comments here would be much appreciated.

Ronin March 13th, 2019 02:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
What am I, supposed to remember to reply to things now?

Not immediately sure about the language, but I think we should probably clarify it one way or another.

I kind of like the idea of being able to throw people into em, especially since we're shooting for consistency with bigger structures/buildings. Magneto slam dunking someone into a porta potty is pretty great. Might open up weird exploits, though.

I like quozl's suggestion, but might slightly modify it so that a figure could enter a vehicle by moving during your turn. (Not necessarily that figure's turn)

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 02:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
OK, I can go with that wording (moving during your turn). I'd like to let Martian Manhunter still direct someone to a car, etc. I'll adjust it.

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 02:43 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
OK, I believe under my edited version you can now be thrown into a vehicle, but only during your turn.

Tornado March 13th, 2019 03:39 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
Yea

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 03:42 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
That's four yea's with me. I'd like at least five to move forward. Once we get them, I'll link the changes to the OP and post in the playtesting thread.

Yodaking March 13th, 2019 04:46 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
https://michaelhyatt.com/wp-content/...18875Small.jpg
yea

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 04:58 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
Cool, thanks! :-) On Spring Break so trying to move some stuff along (and playtesting is harder to do with Bat Toddler in the mix).

I'll update the OP and post in playtesting in a bit here.

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 05:07 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - VOTE for return to Playtesting
 
OP and TP updated with changes.

Tornado March 13th, 2019 05:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Nice work Bats!

Ronin March 13th, 2019 05:28 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
:up:

I'll prioritize our last few April Fools units (and probably Red Skull as well), but I can do a new initial for the Sports Car with these rules at some point in the next couple weeks.

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 06:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2263274)
Nice work Bats!

Thanks! Good teamwork. Appreciate it, all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2263276)
:up:

I'll prioritize our last few April Fools units (and probably Red Skull as well), but I can do a new initial for the Sports Car with these rules at some point in the next couple weeks.

Thanks! Sounds perfect. :-)

Tornado March 13th, 2019 06:29 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I really hope this leads to bigger things. :)

IAmBatman March 13th, 2019 07:44 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2263311)
I really hope this leads to bigger things. :)

Of the structural variety, for instance. :-)

If things go well with testing, we can port it over to the Enclosed Structure rules. But I'd prefer to wait until we've at least had someone take it for a spin first to see if there are any wrinkles to iron out.

Tornado March 13th, 2019 08:15 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Solid.

Scapemage March 23rd, 2019 01:47 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
https://www.heroscapers.com/c3g/art_dept/VDOmock.jpg

Here's a first attempt with 7 (max) occupancy. It's not amazing.

IAmBatman March 23rd, 2019 01:57 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
It doesn't look bad. It's not my favorite approach since it'd be asking you to place the figure over information you'd likely want to reference.

I appreciate your doing the mock up, Scapey!

Scapemage March 23rd, 2019 02:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yeah that's a problem with having one card as a solution to begin with. Perhaps one generic vehicle card you could print one copy of for each of your vehicles could work.

Tornado March 23rd, 2019 03:12 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
For a two seater, it works OK with the upper right hexes.

quozl March 23rd, 2019 08:02 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
What if we just put the steering wheel on the card and had you place the driver there and then not worry about where all the passengers are? They're just all considered adjacent to the driver and each other. That way we're just adding a symbol to the card instead of a bunch of hexes.

Lazy Orang March 23rd, 2019 08:09 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2266595)
What if we just put the steering wheel on the card and had you place the driver there and then not worry about where all the passengers are? They're just all considered adjacent to the driver and each other. That way we're just adding a symbol to the card instead of a bunch of hexes.

I'd like mechanical room to designate other significant/important parts of vehicles/structures that might matter, but I don't mind this direction at all.

We could also try doing internal maps as separate from the card itself.

IAmBatman March 23rd, 2019 08:20 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2266595)
What if we just put the steering wheel on the card and had you place the driver there and then not worry about where all the passengers are? They're just all considered adjacent to the driver and each other. That way we're just adding a symbol to the card instead of a bunch of hexes.

I like that idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2266596)
We could also try doing internal maps as separate from the card itself.

That would be the other direction I'd support, though it's definitely higher maintenance. Still, two cards per vehicle wouldn't be terrible, and would let us do things very clearly.

A3n March 24th, 2019 08:14 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I'm still concerned that this is going too far in the simulation realm & is detracting from the straight forward HS rules. When we started adding rules we said that they should all only be a "light" touch in addition to standard rules.

Margloth March 24th, 2019 08:26 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A3n (Post 2266813)
I'm still concerned that this is going too far in the simulation realm & is detracting from the straight forward HS rules. When we started adding rules we said that they should all only be a "light" touch in addition to standard rules.

At this point, I think C3G is enough of a separate identity, and Heroscape (unfortunately) is 'dead' enough, that all players are somewhat advanced and appreciate more complex additions.

You could argue that Heroscape would never have introduced something so complex, but then again Heroscape never did much more than dip its toe in the Superscape world. If, for instance, the Marvel license had allowed the game to survive, I think they would definitely consider increasing the complexity.

Long and short of it is, yes, Heroscape official might not have ever added vehicles of this complexity, but they also probably wouldn't have churned out hundreds of Superhero designs either.

Margloth March 24th, 2019 08:32 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2266600)
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2266595)
What if we just put the steering wheel on the card and had you place the driver there and then not worry about where all the passengers are? They're just all considered adjacent to the driver and each other. That way we're just adding a symbol to the card instead of a bunch of hexes.

I like that idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2266596)
We could also try doing internal maps as separate from the card itself.

That would be the other direction I'd support, though it's definitely higher maintenance. Still, two cards per vehicle wouldn't be terrible, and would let us do things very clearly.

You could probably just have 2-3 basic 'vehicle interiors' anyway, since the layout of most vehicles should be pretty generic. Then you could just add a line like glyphs, that's an instruction line and not a special power, that says something like: "This vehicle requires a 4 passenger vehicle interior card. For rules concerning vehicle interior layouts, see page blah blah of the vehicle blah blah ruleset."


And then certainly if the vehicle was abnormal, you could have a custom interior card. Like, a the X-Jet with lots of seats or a quinjet with an area in the back to put a two space vehicle inside of it. Vehicle-ception!

IAmBatman March 24th, 2019 08:47 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Well vehicles already list occupancy, so we're covered on who all can be there. And the rules set covers they're all adjacent.

So, really, I think quozl's suggestion of just having a spot to indicate the driver should be fine and non-invasive and easy to add.

As for rules complexity, I believe in practice that this will actually feel simpler and less intrusive. The problem with the current VDO rules is they basically make it feel like when you get in the card, your Hero is no longer themselves and can no longer do anything. This set should more or less make it so they can do what they currently do, but inside a car.

I think it'll work just fine, but we'll see. As always, testing will show!

Tornado March 24th, 2019 09:01 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Sounds good so far.

Ronin May 19th, 2019 11:18 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Setting up, open to army suggestions.

IAmBatman May 19th, 2019 11:27 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Hmm ... Lady Blackhawk, any ranged figures that you want to shoot and run, and anybody good at dodging attacks from range?

Tornado May 20th, 2019 11:56 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I think I am going to try this next. What are drafting the Sports Car at currently?

I certainly will try an F4 build with Lady Blackhawk. Anything else to try? X-Men maybe for double drivers?

I think these new rules will allow me to design the Lawmaster as a VDO, which will be really cool.

Ronin May 21st, 2019 01:02 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2282575)
I think I am going to try this next. What are drafting the Sports Car at currently?

I certainly will try an F4 build with Lady Blackhawk. Anything else to try? X-Men maybe for double drivers?

I think these new rules will allow me to design the Lawmaster as a VDO, which will be really cool.

We don't really have a point cost figured out yet - we need an initial. Which you're welcome to run if you'd like! I'm not feeling possessive here.

Tornado May 21st, 2019 07:05 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Any guess on a point value?
Leaving for a short vacation Thursday so I am running out of time to get a test in this week.

A figure like Invisible Woman would be safe from attack in a Car correct?
You would have to destroy the card first?
Are we doing damage transfer?

IAmBatman May 21st, 2019 07:28 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I believe the link in the OP is current.

Figures outside the car cannot engage figures inside the car, so Invisible Woman would be safe in that regard (and also invisible, so no ranged attacks). That said, another figure could enter the car and attack her that way, unless the car is at maximum occupancy.

I don't believe we have damage transfer planned currently, since you can (other than with someone like Invisible Woman) ranged attack an occupant from outside the vehicle.

She does seem like a good choice, though. Get Mister Fantastic behind the wheel with her riding shotgun and that seems like a pretty solid use of the car. That or maybe Thing in the car with her, since he's slow moving.

Tornado May 21st, 2019 07:40 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I was.thinking Lady Blackhawk for the driver.

IAmBatman May 21st, 2019 07:50 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I'd consider doing that in one test and a bonding army using the car (like Fan Four or original X-Men) for another test.

Ronin May 21st, 2019 09:14 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2282794)
Any guess on a point value?

Didn't even have a WAG yet - the hope is that they'll come in a little lower than they were, so I was gonna try em lower (maybe like 50?) and see how it went, adjust from there.

Tornado May 22nd, 2019 06:27 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Cool. Probably have to wait until next week though.

IAmBatman May 22nd, 2019 08:08 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
No worries. This isn't exactly a quick moving thread ....

Tornado May 22nd, 2019 12:05 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I am a little extra motivated now that I am leaning in this direction for Lawmaster. :)
Plus it lays some groundwork for buildings. The Partial Cover rules in particular opens up some interesting possibilities for inside play.

IAmBatman May 22nd, 2019 01:50 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
:word: and it unlocks the Batmobile too, so I remain motivated. I think if you, Ronin, and I all lean in on this one, we can get it going.

MrNobody May 22nd, 2019 04:18 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I know this has already been a slog, and Iíve been hesitant to speak up because of that, but I guess I should; I really donít like the number of added complications in this new set of rules.

The partial/full cover stuff is cool. I like that, and I do think itíll add to the game. But a lot of the other stuff added in this update seems like a lot of complication for very little gain. The reason I like Heroscape is its simplicity. I like that I donít have to crack open a rulebook every time I play, and thatís what draws me to HS again and again over other games. I guess I feel like this is a step away from that guiding principle.

Going through, here are the things sticking out to me;

1) Moving into vehicles. This is something Iíve never got. Maybe Iím missing something, but why not make them similar to the already-existing concept of glyphs; you enter a vehicle by moving onto a space that vehicle already occupies, and your move ends there. This would also make people entering vehicles take LEAs, which is something Iím for.

2) Specific entry/exit points. Again, itís just complication where I donít feel itís totally needed. Plus, removing this will make it a lot easier for people not using the exact mini listed.

3) Exiting a vehicle you control vs. one you donít take place on different parts of your turn? Thatís the way Iím reading it at least. Exiting a vehicle you control happens after moving, but exiting an opponent-controlled vehicle takes place instead of movement? Honestly just not a huge fan of the whole exiting section, but I donít have any immediate suggestions for changes.

4) Destroying vehicles; who exactly gets the excess wounds? So a car has 2 people in it, and 1 person on top. The car had 1 life left and took 4 wounds, making an excess of 3 wounds. So do all 3 of those figures receive 3 wounds each or is it 1 wound per figure? I honestly just liked the old unblockable attack die system better.

5) What DOs can you stand on? This is less about the rules, and more about DOs in general. Iíve never been clear what DOs are meant to be stood on top of and which arenít. I totally admit I could just be an idiot and Iím missing something, but that could be a nice thing to provide some clarity on, even just in the Books.

I hope this doesnít come off as disrespectful, because that really isnít my intent. I know you guys have been working on this long before I even got sanctum access and have put way more thought into it than I have. This current iteration of the rules just isnít at a point where Iím personally excited about them, and I figured Iíd make my thoughts known.

IAmBatman May 22nd, 2019 05:52 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Lot to parse here. I'll take the low hanging fruit first:

Definitely not taken as disrespectful. I think we've had the battle between being elegant and thematic throughout this thread and I'm not surprised to see it continue. I definitely want to try to keep things elegant, but it seems like everyone has a little something they want to include for thematic or gameplay reasons and then there are things we need or want for clarity and competitive balance and next thing you know you have a dozen extra clauses .... that said, I'm happy to see things trimmed wherever reasonable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrNobody
5) What DOs can you stand on? This is less about the rules, and more about DOs in general. I’ve never been clear what DOs are meant to be stood on top of and which aren’t. I totally admit I could just be an idiot and I’m missing something, but that could be a nice thing to provide some clarity on, even just in the Books.

The following DOs can be stood on:

Manhole Cover
Parked 18-Wheeler
Turbo Lift
Warehouse Ruin

quozl May 22nd, 2019 05:57 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

The following DOs can be stood on:

Manhole Cover
Parked 18-Wheeler
Turbo Lift
Warehouse Ruin
and anything else a figure could physically stand on.

Tornado May 22nd, 2019 07:02 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yeah, that is how we have always played it.

Yodaking May 22nd, 2019 08:46 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yeah, I've just made a call on standing on a DO right there whenever anyone asks about doing so during a game and it's always based on whether the figure in question can rest it's base on top of it or not. Like I have some pretty big toxic waste barrels, so if someone wants to stand on it with a single based figure I let them. It mostly comes up in terms of vehicles though, I have a wide assortment of vehicles that I sometime spread around the map when we play. Some provide flat surfaces that a figure can easily stand on, while others are sloped and the figure slides off instead of staying put. So some cars I let people climb onto and end their move their, while others I don't. The back of a pick-up truck is a popular spot in some of our games.


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