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-   -   Diplomacy (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53767)

Ranior July 20th, 2017 09:30 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2157543)
You'd be great, Wriggz. I'm so pleased you're interested!

Just post below if you want to play. I think each of these guys said he was interested in another round; if not, just say so. @Zetsubo and @All Your Pie , either of you guys want to play again? I'm leaving someone out but I don't remember whom.

1. Kinseth
2. Quozl
3. Ranior
4. Kevindola

It is marrowick. I am guessing he must have been Germany as I dont think anyone claimed that yet and I dont remember seeing post game thoughts from them. Given that plus the fact Germany was slow on orders at the end has me guessing we arent likely to get him again.

Glad to see someone else interested though! Excited for another round.

Dad_Scaper July 20th, 2017 09:48 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
1. Kinseth
2. Quozl
3. Ranior
4. Kevindola
5. Wriggz

Kinseth July 20th, 2017 09:57 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Id offer to run it, if DS wants to play

Dad_Scaper July 21st, 2017 12:29 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Thanks but I like running it.

marrowick July 21st, 2017 08:52 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranior (Post 2157567)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2157543)
You'd be great, Wriggz. I'm so pleased you're interested!

Just post below if you want to play. I think each of these guys said he was interested in another round; if not, just say so. @Zetsubo and @All Your Pie , either of you guys want to play again? I'm leaving someone out but I don't remember whom.

1. Kinseth
2. Quozl
3. Ranior
4. Kevindola

It is marrowick. I am guessing he must have been Germany as I dont think anyone claimed that yet and I dont remember seeing post game thoughts from them. Given that plus the fact Germany was slow on orders at the end has me guessing we arent likely to get him again.

Glad to see someone else interested though! Excited for another round.


I'll play again, I quite enjoyed it. The reasons for my absence is that I've been away the past few weeks working at a summer camp and only had internet access on the weekends.

Ranior July 21st, 2017 09:50 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marrowick (Post 2157607)


I'll play again, I quite enjoyed it. The reasons for my absence is that I've been away the past few weeks working at a summer camp and only had internet access on the weekends.

Aha! I used to be just like that during summers. I use to always have to take off from CoN and stuff during the summer months since I had so little time to get on the internet.

Glad to have you back!

Just need one more at this point it looks like.

kevindola July 25th, 2017 04:21 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Still looking for one more?

Dad_Scaper July 25th, 2017 04:28 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Sure.

wriggz July 25th, 2017 05:54 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I hope I'm not stealing someone's chair. I'm happy to stand aside if all the players from the first round want to play again.

It seemed like marrowick was out when I signed up, so I am willing to give those who already played preference. Although this is D_S's game so it is his call.

Kinseth July 25th, 2017 05:56 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
7 Seats, looking like we have 6 chairs filled, we will need one more.

All Your Pie July 25th, 2017 07:52 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Yeah I'll jump in on this. Reading the various theories of play from y'all has piqued my interest again.

Dad_Scaper July 25th, 2017 08:52 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
1. Kinseth
2. Quozl
3. Ranior
4. Kevindola
5. Wriggz
6. Marrowick
7. AYP

Looks like a full table!

How's everyone's schedules? Start right away, or wait for a week or two for some summer thing, or what?

kevindola July 25th, 2017 08:59 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I can start anytime

Kinseth July 25th, 2017 09:15 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
On vacation Sunday - Thursday next week.

marrowick July 25th, 2017 09:16 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I currently have no plans that would cause me to be unavailable for an impactful amount of time.

wriggz July 25th, 2017 10:17 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
any time works for me. I look forward to guiding <insert country name here> to ultimate victory.

Ranior July 26th, 2017 12:46 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I can start whenever.

I will be at gencon so those fourish days in August will create a hard time for me. I am pretty sure kevindola also goes so we may want to have a hiatus then. Apart from tht though I am clear.

dok July 26th, 2017 02:44 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Interesting to read about "carebears" and people not being willing to stab in the back here. I haven't played Diplo in a while, but I've played another similar game that has some of the same dynamics - Shogun, a.k.a. Samurai Swords, a.k.a. Ikusa (it's been re-printed a lot).

I played it a lot when I was young with friends, but 7 years back or so I started playing it with some folks online. I quickly discovered that not only did most of the players in the "core" group stick with their alliances until the end (i.e. "carebear" style), but when I stabbed my ally in the back, the other players all agreed to basically lay down arms and gang up on me to punish my terrible, horrible, no good betrayal.

At first I was just annoyed by what felt to me like an absurd style of play, but after thinking about it it sort of made sense to me. These players were playing a ton of games with each other regularly, and their reputation for faithfulness was extremely valuable. Due to the mechanics of Shogun, a betrayal can be considerably more sudden and more devastating than in Diplomacy - if you get caught with your pants down you can go from winning the game to dead man walking in one turn. Thus, this ability to trade on their past loyalty was extremely valuable for these players. It was valuable enough that they were willing to sacrifice some wins on occasion in order to keep their reputation, because this got them more wins in the long run. Basically, they were playing not one game, but an iterated game. This justifies their style of play from a game theory perspective.

That said, I didn't personally enjoy this style of play. So I convinced the organizers to set up a multi-game tournament event where all the players were anonymous. Much like the game you just played, players were not allowed to reveal their identities until after the game was over. I did manage to figure out who some people were just from their style of communication, and people did stretch these rules a bit (one player tried to get me to ally with him by arguing that another player was the current tournament points leader), but overall this led to a much more stabby-stabby style of play, with alliances getting betrayed at key moments and each player constantly on guard against the others. This suited my tastes - it was a very fun event.

With that in mind I'm a bit surprised that you had a sticky alliance with anonymous play, but I suppose Kinseth has played open games where reputation mattered often enough that that style of play is somewhat ingrained for him, and he has come to appreciate the allied win as its own sort of fine wine.

Dad_Scaper July 26th, 2017 02:45 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Ok. I'll start it when I get around to it. Maybe this evening.

Marrowick, on behalf of all of us who use this message board and don't have the patience for enormous signature blocks, thank you for changing yours.

edit: Dok, you put your finger upon the exact reason for anonymous play. Though I've seen what you're describing in your Shogun game in face-to-face games of Diplomacy that were, with that set of players, isolated. Some people just play that way. It's probably when those people mix with the rest of us that Diplomacy becomes a game that - it's been said repeatedly on forums like BGG - ends friendships.

In some groups of players, the stabber is vilified and targeted immediately. And if you correctly suss out that you are in such a group, then have fun attacking the first stabber with everybody else and benefiting slightly more than your allies, and if you are not in such a group, but it serves your interest to have that environment, then see if you can create it. :twisted:

kevindola July 31st, 2017 03:23 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I have nothing that would stop me from participating as soon as reasonable.

Dad_Scaper August 3rd, 2017 01:33 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I have now created the game "mittens" on the same judge. The privacy password is "venocsrule." The judge's email is, again, dpjudge@floc.net, and the web interface is at http://www.floc.net/dpjudge/. Let me know if you have any trouble logging in.

Dad_Scaper August 3rd, 2017 02:41 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Only two spots left!

Once the game starts, I will set the movement deadline for S1901M out a week, so everyone has time to get to know each other. Please let me know about other game management things as they come up, just like last time, for those of you who played in it.

Kinseth August 3rd, 2017 02:46 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Oh snap, I better jump on that quickly!

wriggz August 3rd, 2017 11:32 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Looks like only one spot left.

Interestingly Aug 3rd Germany declared war on France and august 4th UK declare war on Germany.

Spidey'tilIDie August 7th, 2017 08:06 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
This game really intrigues me! Is there a way to "watch and learn" as a game progresses? Maybe a way to get your feet wet in Diplomacy? As I said I'm intrigued but it seems a bit daunting.

Dad_Scaper August 7th, 2017 09:38 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
The best way to learn is to play. And then play a few more times. There are some good resources out there to read about it. Check out www.diplom.org.

kevindola August 7th, 2017 09:44 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I watched the 'How to play Diplomacy Tutorial' on youtube (5 parts). Took about 30 minutes, but was immensely more helpful than the rulebook (imo).

But I'd recommend just playing too. I think there's one spot available.

Dad_Scaper August 14th, 2017 12:11 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Which one of you ding-dongs still hasn't signed up?

Please don't say so here. Just go sign up, or shoot me a PM explaining what the issue is. I'll be glad to help.

Dad_Scaper August 15th, 2017 09:53 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie (Post 2159124)
This game really intrigues me! Is there a way to "watch and learn" as a game progresses? Maybe a way to get your feet wet in Diplomacy? As I said I'm intrigued but it seems a bit daunting.

Spidey, feel free to sign up if you want. It's now a race between you, with all the clues in this thread, and whichever nimrod has declined to register so far.

Ready, set, go!

wriggz August 15th, 2017 10:12 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2159749)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie (Post 2159124)
This game really intrigues me! Is there a way to "watch and learn" as a game progresses? Maybe a way to get your feet wet in Diplomacy? As I said I'm intrigued but it seems a bit daunting.

Spidey, feel free to sign up if you want. It's now a race between you, with all the clues in this thread, and whichever nimrod has declined to register so far.

Ready, set, go!

Having not used the Judge software before, I want to confirm I did it Right, I should be "Power 4"

quozl August 15th, 2017 11:18 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
It looks like I'm the nimrod. Sorry guys but I don't have time to play currently.

Dad_Scaper August 16th, 2017 08:00 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Ok. I'm sorry to hear that, Q, but if things change you can hop in next time.

Spidey, are you ready to join?

Kinseth August 16th, 2017 08:57 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie (Post 2159124)
This game really intrigues me! Is there a way to "watch and learn" as a game progresses? Maybe a way to get your feet wet in Diplomacy? As I said I'm intrigued but it seems a bit daunting.

Wanna join us?

kevindola August 18th, 2017 01:04 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
@scorpiusx indicated to me he is down to clown

I always have trouble signing in, but hopefully if you follow these instructions you can get in:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2158748)
I have now created the game "mittens" on the same judge. The privacy password is "venocsrule." The judge's email is, again, dpjudge@floc.net, and the web interface is at http://www.floc.net/dpjudge/. Let me know if you have any trouble logging in.


scorpiusx August 18th, 2017 09:00 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Yeah I am up for getting slaughtered in my first ever game.

-scorp

scorpiusx August 18th, 2017 11:39 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Looks like the game has started? Btw are we supposed to keep our nation identity private? I told kevindola who I was already, (not realizing that might need to hidden information.) I think it would be more fun if I knew who was who, but if that isn't a shared sentiment I can respect that.

-scorp

wriggz August 19th, 2017 01:26 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpiusx (Post 2159887)
Looks like the game has started? Btw are we supposed to keep our nation identity private? I told kevindola who I was already, (not realizing that might need to hidden information.) I think it would be more fun if I knew who was who, but if that isn't a shared sentiment I can respect that.

-scorp

I have no reason to keep my identity hidden, as you will all only know me through my posts on this site. I would ask that communication regarding the game does go through the official Press, since offline communication can be a boon to those players building stronger alliances.

scorpiusx August 19th, 2017 03:40 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Well, I will go ahead and say it.

GOBBLE GOBBLE, this Turkey is out to squabble.

-scorp

Dad_Scaper August 20th, 2017 03:00 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
No press or communication about the game outside of the judge. Not. A. Word. Not here, not on the phone, not by email or Facebook post or chatter by the water cooler. That is cheating, and even the lightest most innocent-seeming remark can betray something important.

If anyone has any objection to continuing as we are please let me know privately. One option is restarting with the same seven but with new opportunities to select powers, so things may be different.

It's a fun game and I don't want to be so harsh as it's starting but I need to be clear on this point.

Kinseth August 20th, 2017 10:55 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I would prefer we reset the countries.

scorpiusx August 20th, 2017 12:37 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2159960)
No press or communication about the game outside of the judge. Not. A. Word. Not here, not on the phone, not by email or Facebook post or chatter by the water cooler. That is cheating, and even the lightest most innocent-seeming remark can betray something important.

If anyone has any objection to continuing as we are please let me know privately. One option is restarting with the same seven but with new opportunities to select powers, so things may be different.

It's a fun game and I don't want to be so harsh as it's starting but I need to be clear on this point.

???

Afraid I don't understand why one form of private communication is cheating while another isn't? Only thing I can think of is if say I was telling everyone I was Austria when I was really Turkey, but that sort of fiction would make itself evident rather quickly.

Ultimately I joined the game to have fun with my fellow Scapers and friends. I know AYP, Ranior, and kevindola through CoN and this seemed to be a good opportunity to interact with both them and the other Scapers I haven't had the pleasure to talk with much. Keeping things rigid and strict keeps things more stodgy and official; more work than fun. And the reason I play games is to have fun; to scheme and banter and **** talk with old and new friends alike, just like I would on an actual tabletop.

But maybe I am alone in that sentiment, and since I am new to Diplomacy I would like know if there is a reason for keeping things so rigid that actually affects the gameplay.

-scorp

wriggz August 20th, 2017 04:04 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpiusx (Post 2159970)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2159960)
No press or communication about the game outside of the judge. Not. A. Word. Not here, not on the phone, not by email or Facebook post or chatter by the water cooler. That is cheating, and even the lightest most innocent-seeming remark can betray something important.

If anyone has any objection to continuing as we are please let me know privately. One option is restarting with the same seven but with new opportunities to select powers, so things may be different.

It's a fun game and I don't want to be so harsh as it's starting but I need to be clear on this point.

???

Afraid I don't understand why one form of private communication is cheating while another isn't? Only thing I can think of is if say I was telling everyone I was Austria when I was really Turkey, but that sort of fiction would make itself evident rather quickly.

I doubt anything of note has happened before the first movement phase and don't think abandoning the game makes sense.

Ultimately I joined the game to have fun with my fellow Scapers and friends. I know AYP, Ranior, and kevindola through CoN and this seemed to be a good opportunity to interact with both them and the other Scapers I haven't had the pleasure to talk with much. Keeping things rigid and strict keeps things more stodgy and official; more work than fun. And the reason I play games is to have fun; to scheme and banter and **** talk with old and new friends alike, just like I would on an actual tabletop.

But maybe I am alone in that sentiment, and since I am new to Diplomacy I would like know if there is a reason for keeping things so rigid that actually affects the gameplay.

-scorp

The press system is very quick and easy, so it is possible to get chummy and relaxed there. You can even send messages to multiple people. You should not feel stifled.

However, as I have mentioned using any other system can disadvantage people not privy to those systems.

I don't think there is anything wrong with people knowing who is who, it might impact your decision making prospect if you think you know one of your friends can or can't be trusted, but that is the same game you play with strangers.

scorpiusx August 20th, 2017 04:13 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I've also used the press system and don't have any problems with it. I am fine relegating any further private communication to the press system now, but I would definitely ask that we keep the current game standing if that's okay with everyone else. Just seems like a hassle to reset everything, especially after people have already begun to strategize their nations, (plus I am a new player and have been doing lots of studying on how to efficiently play my particular nation and would hate to have to switch things up now.)

-scorp

Dad_Scaper August 21st, 2017 11:32 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I was at GenCon last week and not as involved as I would normally be. My apologies.

First of all, let's be clear that I rule by fiat. If I ask you guys how you feel about something, it's because I want to know. But as GM, my decisions are final.

Second of all, I am not new to GM'ing online Diplomacy games. I would venture to guess that I have GM'ed more online games then any of you have played, and possibly more than all of you have played online put together.

Third of all, I did not lightly use that stern warning. Those of you who played in the last game will recall that I never adopted that tone one time in the past, and it is rare that I do so.

Fourth of all, let me explain why: As I understood the post in question several things had happened. (1) "Gunboat" - anonymous play - had broken. (2) Two players were communicating about the game off the judge.

I don't really care if gunboat gets broken. That happens sometimes. It's not good, because - like it or not - dealing with "Germany" is different from dealing with "Wriggz," and you won't read press the same way, so it is a bad thing. But it happens sometimes. (Edit: Just an example off the top of my head. I have no idea who is playing which power. I suppose I could use my GM powers to look it up but in order to protect the game itself I don't ever do so, barring an emergency not present at this time.)

Where it becomes more dangerous is in situations in which players are also communicating with each other off-judge. If Germany and France are friends at a high school, or communicate regularly via text or something, and the game comes up in casual conversation, one of two things will happen. Either (1) France has said something significant about the game, or (2) Germany will mistakenly *think* France has said something significant about the game. This is unavoidable

As wriggz said, that situation is unfair to all the rest of the players. Not because France and Germany will deliberately cheat, but because any time the subject of the game comes up, they are sharing opportunities to suss out clues from each other, and to find those clues, whether those clues are imaginary or not.

So. I have run games in this situation before. I did then what I've done now, which is make sure that all the players understood what had happened, and all consented before going forward. (Edit: Please write me privately if you object. There is no need to post your thoughts here, whether you object or not.)

I agree with Scorpius that this game *could* go forward, and if people are excited about their powers then it probably should. Gunboat being broken for one player is not a big deal; it happens. We can "forget" it happened and move on, pretending it did not. However, if I learn or deduce that there has been off-judge communication about the game in this context, players will be ejected.

Those are the conditions of going forward. I regret that we are starting the game with a stern warning, but in my experience it is necessary that we do so. If anyone has any objections to this path, please write me privately. Or leave, or ask me to leave, if you think I've been too harsh.

Kinseth August 21st, 2017 11:38 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I am good with carrying on. Since we have some newbies here, it is understandable.

With the standard being clear, going forward, let the games begin!

kevindola August 21st, 2017 11:55 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I would like the game to continue as-is

wriggz August 21st, 2017 01:15 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2160024)
It's not good, because - like it or not - dealing with "Germany" is different from dealing with "Wriggz," and you won't read press the same way, so it is a bad thing.


I'm not sure if this is an insult or a complement.

Dad_Scaper August 21st, 2017 02:50 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wriggz (Post 2160033)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2160024)
It's not good, because - like it or not - dealing with "Germany" is different from dealing with "Wriggz," and you won't read press the same way, so it is a bad thing.

I'm not sure if this is an insult or a complement.

See that? I can play Diplomacy, too. ;)


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