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-   -   Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33458)

Elginb September 11th, 2011 11:20 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
These guys look interesting. I can see D_S' concerns-- a screen of 1 defense units can still be a very effective screen just because it limits the mobility of the advancing army (I've used Venoc Vipers to good effect as 0 defense blockers-- just the fact that your opponent has to waste a turn killing them to get unengaged is a boon for you).

At the same time, I don't see these guys as being better than the Harquebus, who I think are actually a very effective 60 point, 4-figure ranged squad with a defense of 1. Did you playtest at all against the Harquebus? Sure, the archers have better ranged defense, but the Harquebus have better offense in more situations.

Then again, if they have a good screen, I can see them getting high ground and 3 attack dice much of the time. But the chances of them being better than the 4th Mass are slim, so we're if they're priced wrong, they're probably not off by more than 10 points.

Anyway, I vote YES to reviewing the Skeleton Archers!

Killometer September 12th, 2011 01:16 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Harqs were one of the first comparisons that came to my mind for these guys, too.

dok September 12th, 2011 01:42 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
I think the original Aubrien analogy put forward by the designers is probably the most apt. Aubriens are 2/2 all the time, with a range of 7, and average roughly 4 attacks per OM. These guys are 2/3 at range, with a range of 7, and get 4 attacks per OM.

The differences are that the Skeletal Archers eat startzone spaces faster and lose power as their opponents close in, with the counterbalancing benefit of having more figures and therefore more wounds, and stronger ranged defense. All in all, 10 points cheaper sounds fairly reasonable.

My biggest complaints with those guys would be theme related. I really dislike same-sculpt squads just in principle, and add to that a "skeletal" personality and a "horde" class... really guys, what's wrong with terrifying archers? ;)

Killometer September 12th, 2011 01:47 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
I connected them with Harqs because they're both 60 point, 4 member, 1 defense ranged squads with a fairly easy way to bump their attack.

dok September 12th, 2011 01:56 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killometer (Post 1478898)
I connected them with Harqs because they're both 60 point, 4 member, 1 defense ranged squads with a fairly easy way to bump their attack.

Oh, sure, I get it. I just think that when you drill down to the stats, they are going to play more like the Aubriens more of the time.

FWIW, I would be pretty concerned about the power of these guys if it wasn't for startzone space restrictions. These guys really seem like they are designed to play behind a wall of rats, but the startzone limit comes into play really fast. Still, it might be a concern in low point games - I would bet that SAx3+ratsx3 would beat 17 minutemen on most maps.

Typhon2222 September 12th, 2011 02:42 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 1478896)
My biggest complaints with those guys would be theme related. I really dislike same-sculpt squads just in principle, and add to that a "skeletal" personality and a "horde" class... really guys, what's wrong with terrifying archers? ;)

:lol: If it helps, Reaper sells these guys in various different paint jobs for the archers' bows. They come in red, blue, and yellow, and maybe something else. So you can assemble a squad with whatever combination of colors you want. :up:

As for "skeletal" personality and "horde" class.... We hear ya dok, believe me! Problem is that we're working on several general/overlord kinda figures who can controls/summon various subtypes of our undead units. A bit like Kato Katsuro, but with more specificity. Some can control only Horde (four-man squad) and Thrall (three-man squad) classes. Others can summon Minion (common heroes) and Horror (uncommon heroes) classes as well. Some are limited to overseeing only Skeletal units. Others can summon various other non-Skeletal kinds of undead as well. So we have to use the personality and class fields as indices for all this. It's too bad this means sacrificing a little bit of sexy, but hey, we gotta work within the number of index boxes 'Scape has given us. ;)

Typhon2222 September 12th, 2011 02:55 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elginb (Post 1478843)
These guys look interesting. I can see D_S' concerns-- a screen of 1 defense units can still be a very effective screen just because it limits the mobility of the advancing army (I've used Venoc Vipers to good effect as 0 defense blockers-- just the fact that your opponent has to waste a turn killing them to get unengaged is a boon for you).

At the same time, I don't see these guys as being better than the Harquebus, who I think are actually a very effective 60 point, 4-figure ranged squad with a defense of 1. Did you playtest at all against the Harquebus? Sure, the archers have better ranged defense, but the Harquebus have better offense in more situations.

Then again, if they have a good screen, I can see them getting high ground and 3 attack dice much of the time. But the chances of them being better than the 4th Mass are slim, so we're if they're priced wrong, they're probably not off by more than 10 points.

Anyway, I vote YES to reviewing the Skeleton Archers!

Glad they're of some interest, Elginb! :oops:

I totally take your point about the Vipers. One difference that comes to mind though is that Vipers don't give anything up by serving as screens. Being cruise missiles, they want to engage and attack enemies anyway, and if they're not killed, they'll keep on attacking. Whereas Skeleton Archers can only serve as screens by permanently sacrificing their own attacks.

Sertorius September 12th, 2011 03:21 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
The "horde" class and "skeletal" personality are not elegant solutions, but it had to be that way for the greater undead faction we have going (typhon said it succinctly above).

I would have no problem putting up a different version of the card for SoV, if it came to it:
Undead
Common Squad
Archers
Terrifying (or the like)
Medium 4
I could also redo the image with some color variety, if required, but please god don't make me.

robbdaman September 12th, 2011 03:50 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
That's all and good but keep in mind that the SoV and C3V may not fit within the confines of your greater undead faction and vice versa. I would say customs submitted should be done in mind for the current units in Heroscape, not a collective of other customs that may or may not make it in SoV.

Sertorius September 12th, 2011 04:23 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Hence why I just said that changing the sidebar of the card is a non-issue. It takes 5 seconds in MSE.

:confused:

flameslayer93 September 12th, 2011 04:42 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Well, it's time to try this out, at least for the Tactical Combat Unit. Any readers who dislike the figures used on the card can easily find approximately 50 other viable figures from the A&A minis on troll and toad. That's a lot of three man squads! Of course the AE will also make great proxies or heck even toy soldiers(which I use). Auggie has a whopping 46 teams of Airbornes, so no shortage there. And it's not like many of us don't have at least 1 set of MS1 figs that we would mind giving up;). Toy Soldiers come in a variety of packages, but I found a 16-figure count one at my local dollar store. With so many options for figures, I find it hard, nay next to impossible, for anybody to believe they cannot try these guys out for a spin.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WSHCNRa4Ho...OMBAT+UNIT.jpg

So my cardshopping skills stink, but I guess that can be fix'd by somone more skillful than I.

Now then, the real part of the submission(after the squad itself) is this article here:

http://flameslayer93.blogspot.com/20...mbat-unit.html

And there is even a battle report of them in action with the newly minted Capt. John Varan here:

http://flameslayer93.blogspot.com/20...bloodbath.html

Thank you for any criticism and for looking at my custom:)

Elginb September 12th, 2011 08:52 AM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhon2222 (Post 1478907)
Whereas Skeleton Archers can only serve as screens by permanently sacrificing their own attacks.

Okay, now I'm confused. What do you mean by "permanently"? Certainly you don't mean that once any opponent's figure engages a skeleton archer that the archers can't attack the rest of the game. Do you mean that if any archer is engaged, then NO archer can attack that turn? If that's not what you mean, then I don't see why they can't act as their own screen fairly effectively...


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