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-   -   [Pod 2] The Book of Nephda (Kiora the Rising Tide) - Editing (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57233)

NecroBlade November 28th, 2020 01:09 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astroking112 (Post 2431128)
(I was fond of the Sci-Fi alien transplant direction for Durnipia, for example, but that's inherently a redesign of a strong design that I don't think needs one). :2cents:

Sci-Fi alien transplants can't have water magic? ;)

Anyway, you're absolutely right that it's a "your mileage might vary" sort of thing. We tend to approach these things from different sides and that's fine. I'll shut up about it unless I'm asked, and let Pod 2 do it's thing. (Which I've probably said before, but I'm also trying to balance keeping the discussion going and moving the project forward.)

Captain Stupendous November 28th, 2020 03:13 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
Thanks everyone for all the feedback!

Personally I think the design still fits the feeling of Durnipia fairly well. Given that Durnipia is only briefly mentioned in two bios (10th Regiment of Foot and Valguard) and all we know is that she is "Einar's healer", as long as the design has a healing emphasis and fits well enough in Einar I think we're good. I understand the traditional association of water with Aquilla, but I don't think we can't see some other water based designs show up in other generals from time to time. I also think its helpful that the emphasis of the design is on healing, rather than water utility, as in many ways the water terraforming serves to increase her healing potential. Healing as a mechanic is also fairly rare in Heroscape, so any design with a healing focus will already stand out for that reason, which in my mind makes the association with Durnipia even easier to justify.

Also, I think at this point we're actually in more need of Einar designs than Aquilla to round out the set? According to my notes, we currently have two designs that have a strong possibility to end up as Aquilla (Arlinn Kord human form as a native american hero and the merfolk roilmage as an Aquilla elementar) and only two potential Einar designs (Durnipia and Katryn). I know early brainstorming had floated the Phoenixes as an Einar squad, but that was before Axentia had hit public playtesting. In the interests of making the set feel at home alongside c3v, I'd be hesitant to make the phoenixes anything other than Jandar to match Axentia.

As far as the species goes, I agree that Rusalka is perhaps a bit obscure, and that the more generic Nymph or Merfolk would probably be a slight improvement. Of the two I lean towards Nymph, if only because the Merfolk Roilmage looks just like a Merfolk but will probably end up being an Elementar or something else, and it would be a little strange for Durnipia to be a merfolk but not the Roilmage. For the class I'm open to suggestions, but thought perhaps "Lady" might work? Its kind of a reference to the 10th Regiment of Foots bio when one of the soldiers refers to her as "Madam Durnipia."

Regarding all the comments about the "Carried by Waves" power, how would people feel about this?

Quote:

CARRIED BY WAVES V2.0
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space for the remainder of their turn.
Putting this all together gives us:

Quote:

Durnipia
EINAR
Nymph
Unique Hero
Lady
Inscrutable
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 80 (probably could be increased to 90 or 100 now, given the increase in power of both abilities?)

Powers

CARRIED BY WAVES V2
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space for the remainder of their turn.

HEALING WATERS V2
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each other friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card. If that figure is on a water space, add 5 to your roll.

flameslayer93 November 28th, 2020 04:39 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
I still prefer Pheonixes under Einar because red on blue is absolutely hideous. :)

Captain Stupendous November 29th, 2020 11:35 AM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flameslayer93 (Post 2431395)
I still prefer Pheonixes under Einar because red on blue is absolutely hideous. :)

I mean, I'm not a fan of the red on blue either, but I think that full VC consistency needs to be more important than aesthetic concerns.

flameslayer93 November 29th, 2020 02:30 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous (Post 2431496)
Quote:

Originally Posted by flameslayer93 (Post 2431395)
I still prefer Pheonixes under Einar because red on blue is absolutely hideous. :)

I mean, I'm not a fan of the red on blue either, but I think that full VC consistency needs to be more important than aesthetic concerns.

Its hard to say if Axentia will stay Jandar though. We don't really know. ;)

Astroking112 November 29th, 2020 03:02 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
Pheonixes in general have very strong justification for Einar. I think that Axentia is the exception rather than the norm there (much like how dwarves can be found either in Aquilla or other generals on occasion), but I can delve further into that when the time for designing the Pheonixes actually comes around. Suffice it to say that I think they will feel noticeably out of place under a different general than Einar, regardless of whether Axentia does or not. ;)

I quite enjoy Einar's themes and overall feeling, but this design noticeably does not mesh well with them as it stands. An Inscrutable Nymph feels right out of the "dark fantasy" that Aquilla is known for, has strong ties to nature, an undercurrent of wildness that is trademark Aquilla, and is very much based around water with both of her powers. Pretty much every aspect of the design feels right at home under Aquilla, and I don't see a strong reason to tie her to Einar here other than the name of Durnipia. The presentation feels like a noticeable disconnect to either give Einar more units or make an obscure reference for the sake of it, rather than a decision to improve the theme of this design, which is why it feels so off to me.

In terms of making her a Lady, keep in mind that she would then have synergy with the Skeletons of Annellintia. It feels weird in my opinion, but it's honestly less disconcerting to me than her being under the wrong general. ;)

Pumpkin_King November 30th, 2020 05:32 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
I'm beginning be swayed by her not being Durnipia, Astro.

Captain Stupendous November 30th, 2020 06:43 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
I'm fine with her not being Durnipia. I've always said I could see this figure fitting in just fine as either Durnipia under Einar, OR a random name under Aquilla. Personally, I think the current design fits well enough under either general. The "regal" looking sculpt and color scheme works well under Einar in my opinion, and healing as a mechanic is tied directly to Durnipia's lore. I tried to lean more into that with the "Lady" class, but I forgot about the Annelinta synergy, which I agree doesn't really fit. Right now both Einar and Aquilla are looking like they have around the same amount of figures, so I don't think it will have a significant difference on the balance of generals represented either way. Personally I think that the tie in to the existing lore is more interesting than a completely new character, but others mileage may vary (and does, apparently :) )

flameslayer93 December 1st, 2020 02:32 AM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
Fwiw, I'm not married to Durnipia/Einar or the Rusalka bit. Not hyper enthused about doing a redesign of we go the alien priestess route (since the water stuff would seem off for her), but we can always give the Roilmage water creating power(s) so the "need" isn't especially there.

Shiftrex December 3rd, 2020 03:14 AM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
-> Public Feedback based on the main post

This is a really cool sculpt to dedicate to a part of classic scape that we don't have yet. I think that it has the potential to work with the overall theme of using water to heal. The armor is enough to pull the character into an 'Einar' type of unit for me visually at least.

I had to look up what a Rusalka was, pretty interesting take on what we are seeing. Though I'm curious because the basic definition I found placed this as an often malicious entity that is associated with water, not saying that it can't be a good version of a Rusalka but it was a bit unexpected. The personality is probably good to have, placing this entity as unfamiliar or unexplainable or hard to understand helps with the species being a healer instead of malevolent. Nymph as a class strikes me as odd, is there a reason this isn't just the species instead?

The stats look pretty solid, nothing stands out as unexpected.

The powers have me confused and probably means that she has a curve for play that is a bit above what I'm thinking. The current version of ferrying things across existing water requires the figure start adjacent to her, which means that she would need to be developed first or be in a position to be moved to the front of the formation on your OM 3 so you can hope for an initiative switch and cross water. Though, I'm wondering in what situations I'd opt for this instead of just crossing water traditionally... plus moving her to the front of my formation early just greatly limits by movement ability by enabling only those figures that start their turn next to her.

The healing ability being tied to water is really fun, I like that. She can also heal a lot of characters on the right map by being in water which is traditionally a dangerous place to be in terms of height... but she can make her own water if she is up towards the front.

I like the powers, but I personally find the Carried by Waves power to be a bit clunky right now. Maybe I'm not reading it properly or I'd just need to see it used properly to understand how it is useful because as it is... I think it would cause obstacles for general movement instead of enabling freer movement.

Potential to be a really effective healer map dependent or positioning dependent.

Strack9 December 3rd, 2020 10:18 AM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
I like this
Quote:

Originally Posted by NecroBlade (Post 2431060)

I thought (and hoped) we were moving in the "Marro Warrior" direction of any healing but a boost on water spaces. If we wanted to tie that in to the magic value of "6", how about 16+ with +10 on water?

I like how this clears up hindering friendlies too
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous (Post 2431374)
CARRIED BY WAVES V2.0
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space for the remainder of their turn.

As far as name, general, class, etc, I'll probably be satisfied at wherever Pod2 ends up as long as she's good at healing. For me, though, it would be a nice bonus if she ended up being able to heal herself too.

Skinderella December 4th, 2020 08:29 PM

Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
 
I really like Durnipia, she has a unique toolkit and fun abilities. I haven't tried her out myself but I've always had a small worry that she could easily put you at a disadvantage if not played carefully. She lacks a lot of the tools other healers have to easily heal others, whether it's mobility with Kelda, the range and sheer amount you can do in one turn with Sonlen, or the bulk and low rolls of Rhogar. For Durnipia you have low mobility and situational range which requires you to put your figures in a disadvantaged place. The potential heal is huge, but armies don't often consist of many heroes nor do maps usually have chunks of water where you can safely put heroes into where the trade off of likely height disadvantage and limited movement would be worth it. I do not see much of a reason to draft her over Kelda who has far better mobility and far greater healing with the same bulk for the same points.

The water focus she has sounds like a lot of fun, but you cannot make full use of her kit with figures that actively enjoy water tiles since they are almost entirely squads and/or commons. She could be a huge boon to hero heavy teams (something I personally really enjoy), the first ideas to come to mind were Talingul builds and Monk builds, potentially Fen Hydras too since water does not bother them. The fear here though is that her kit plays against the play styles of the teams mentioned where they require getting close to the opponent, but are then forced onto water for a low chance heal. She could work in a ranged pod, but why not just draft Ana Karithon who then doesnít require the Order Marker, you can heal every turn with a greater chance and more potent heals, and can also provide a small defense buff against the right units. And for only 20 points more.

I'm not 100% sold on her character stuff either. Iíd rather she was her own character instead of being Durnipia but am not against her being Durnipia either. She feels more like an Aquillan unit to me, being water focused and being part fish. She could work as an Einar unit and Iím not opposed to this either, but Einar always felt like a historical, militaristic general. Sure they could summon a merfolk healer, but I think militaristic merfolk would have vastly different goals than any land dwellers. And I just donít see why theyíd summon a merfolk to heal their forces than justÖ.any other healer that naturally lives on land and wouldnít hinder their army. I know the hope is to make an even number of units per general, but Aquilla has fewer units than Einar anyway, and no master set has ever had equal units per general.

I donít like Nymph as a class at all. As a race sure, but as a class it really stands out to me. I would much rather see something like Princess, Warrior, Priestess, or maybe something new like Deep Mage. As for her race, as long as itís fish themed I think it will fit, she sits in a unique spot against other Scape units where there is nothing to compare her to. Finfolk, Nymph, Merfolk, Naiad, Nereid, Siren, or whatever the upcoming fish people C3V are working on could be. Rusalka could also work but it comes across as a more evil race upon research.

I like a lot of the suggestions that have already been made. Making her heal more like the Marro Warriors and not a requirement to be on water is a great step. It makes her far less map dependant and makes her a bit more engaging and fluid. In fact I think this one change will help her drastically. Iíve said it on the discord before but I like the idea of her being a ranged unit, even if it means lowering her attack to 2. Or even reversing this and keeping her range 1 but increasing her attack or defense so she can easily wade into the front lines, which is where she'll often want to be if her heal is changed to be buffed on water.

Overall though I do really like this design and where itís heading, there is a lot of potential here but I think she just needs some fine tuning and tweaks before being perfect.


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