Heroscapers

Heroscapers (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/index.php)
-   Misc Customs Project Forum (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=74)
-   -   Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31300)

Dysole July 19th, 2016 04:32 PM

Six of One
 
That's part of the reason I liked C1. It didn't mention elevation changes. The rework of Expert Climbing isn't bad. I've never liked the way that power has been written but I'll see if I think it's okay here.

~Dysole, updatingly

Confred July 19th, 2016 06:46 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Honestly, Expert Climbing doesn't seem simpler than C1.
It still has the "ignoring height" problem and adds what doesn't really need to be.

I think climbing over obstacles is pretty important, as is jumping. I think climbing better than others is less important than simply being able to do it.

Note: C3G doesn't make wording official

Confred July 19th, 2016 10:54 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I had planned on doing a big write up when I got home, nowtime, but my arm is killing me.

The gist is this:

There are the things we want her to do.

And there are the specific mechanics that enable that to happen.

I was going to research every route and explain every version. I was going to take every proposal and research each line by line and reveal any inconsistency to law and then list the revised version against all the other revised versions.

but my arm hurts.

Feel free to do it for me :P

If you don't know how, or where to start, start with linking figures with similar power. Ideally link them and then copy word for word the segment of interest.

thanks,

Confred, Power Codex

Confred July 20th, 2016 11:48 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by William099 (Post 2102383)
Check out ghost Rider Grim c3g for elevation ignoring powers. Lizard has it too.

C3G figures
Spoiler Alert!

After looking at them, I don't think there is anything to gain. I welcome explanation of otherwise, but I'd prefer to stick to our homebrew.

What she needs
Ability to climb
' to climb over obstacles
' to escape out of engagements
' to leap over gaps, such as ravines or from one building to another.

Note: She doesn't have to do any of these great, just be able to do them.

Let's look at official figures that deal with climbing, elevations.
Official figures
Spoiler Alert!


Now let's customize:
"FLYING"
When counting spaces for Faith's movement, ignore elevations. Faith may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If Faith is engaged when she starts to fly, she will take any leaving engagement attacks.
.... sorry out of time ! gotta run, but posting to get the ball rolling and to save progress.

Note: Take a look at Sgt. Drake

McHotcakes July 20th, 2016 01:43 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Confred (Post 2102641)
It still has the "ignoring height" problem

See here I think is where we are having a fundamental difference of opinion. You believe that if we ignore Faith's height it means that she can't climb at all. C3G and I believe that ignoring her height doesn't limit her ability to climb, it let's us ignore her height value.

A figure with a height of 4 normally has a height value of 4. Meaning they cannot move higher than 4 levels up in a single move. If we ignore height while climbing it wouldn't set the figure's height to 0, it would mean that their ability to climb is limited by their move and not their height.

Quote:

C3G doesn't make wording official
True, but people have used the wording without incident. C3G still has the same base rules as classic scape. Height limits are still in effect in their game. I don't believe the wording of Expert Climbing or similar powers fundamentally go against the official game rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confred (Post 2102732)

Let's look at official figures that deal with climbing, elevations.
Official figures
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...194&original=1
CLIMB X3
When moving up or down levels of terrain, Fyorlag Spiders may triple their height.
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...d_original.jpg
Spiders are older figures, but SCALE confirms wording correctness.

These powers, though official, aren't exactly the same thing that I think we are going for with Faith.

With Scale it sets the height value of the cutters to 5 instead of 3. They can climb up 5 levels in a single turn, and drop 5 levels without getting hurt. If they simply stayed at height value of 3 they would be a very impractical unit. The power gives them average climbing power.

Climb x3 sets the spiders' height value at 6. This is done to compliment their move of 7. With this combination a spider can move up 6 levels of elevation in a single move even though their height is only 2. Again if this power wasn't there the spiders would be a horribly impractical unit. The power is there to make the figure practical as opposed to making them excel.

Let me clarify. By giving the spiders 3 times its height while climbing it sets a limit. If a spider has a boost from Valda it still couldn't climb more than 6 levels up. If all of its move took place on a road it still couldn't climb more than 6 levels up. It would make sense that normal figures and even the cutters would be limited by their climbing size, but why the spiders? Logically a creature that can easily walk up walls should be limited only by its move instead of its size. Which I don't think was what was intended.

With that said, let's take a look at Faith. If we use a version of the power that let's Faith ignore the first 6 levels while climbing then that means she can theoretically climb up 11 levels in a single turn. So then we give her a power that triples her height. Giving her a height limit of 12. Well what if she is boosted by Valda? She couldn't climb higher than 11 levels up, even though she has the move to. So we quadruple her height. That gives her a height value of 16 so she can climb 15 levels up in a single turn. What if she also has a road bonus? With her base move of 6+plus her ability to ignore the first 6 levels+the glyph of Valda+the road bonus that sets her potential climbing ability to 17. That means we would have to to quintuple her height. And yes we could do that, but what if there is some C3V custom or another HoF custom down the road that boosts her move even more? Now she is limited by her height value. Basically the point I am trying to make is that height value shouldn't have any real impact on a figure that can scale a skyscraper with relative ease.

I apologize for the rant but I'm just trying to relate my opinion and my logic behind it. I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. So I'll state this and leave it.

Adding a height limit for a figure that is capable of climbing incredible peaks makes little sense. Ignoring her height value is the most practical and logical solution to the climbing question, even if it isn't "official." I don't think we need to be bound by precedents in the official rules that don't really fit with what we are going for, and that have limits that were most likely unintended.

Confred July 20th, 2016 01:55 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
@McHotcakes first, don't think your explanations upset me. I encourage them!
You have a good point with the limits. Faith would defiantly climb unlimitedly. I don't want the climb to be free though, like it is with flying, and I'm not saying you're saying that.

But I do think there is a better way to word it.

William099 July 20th, 2016 02:06 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
As far as the benefit of c3g vs homebrew, I figured it would just make it easier to hash out a power since a lot of the leg work was done in establishing the precedent. I know myself when I make powers for my personal cards, it's easier not to pull from scratch and the c3v, c3g and such kind of feel like the resident custom experts. Ntm using a framework to direct the homebrew prevents extreme power creep.

JC McMinis July 20th, 2016 06:55 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I think if we word it like flying, but limit how high she can go it would work. That was how I worded it on the last card I posted, maybe I had the height up to small of value.

Confred July 20th, 2016 11:31 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
" When moving up levels of terrain, Faith ignores height limits. "

ADVANCED FREERUNNING (C3)
When moving up levels of terrain, Faith ignores height limits. Faith may pass by figures without becoming engaged, and climb over obstacles such as ruins. Faith may subtract 1 die from her falling and extreme falling rolls.

The 2space/1space climbing thing has grown on me :P
but for now the above example is pretty clean.

ADVANCED FREERUNNING (C4)
When moving up levels of terrain, Faith ignores height limits. When moving down levels of terrain, Faith may subtract 1 die from her falling and extreme falling rolls. Faith may climb over obstacles such as ruins and pass by figures without becoming engaged.

PS: I don't like "freerunning" and "runner" together for aesthetic reasons.

It would be jolly if she could leap.

Cavalier July 21st, 2016 11:31 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Extreme falling is damage is a d20 roll (18 or less the figure is detroyed). Are meaning to take that out all together with the proposed wording?

Confred July 21st, 2016 01:39 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavalier (Post 2102943)
Extreme falling is damage is a d20 roll (18 or less the figure is detroyed). Are meaning to take that out all together with the proposed wording?

Good catch. I honestly didn't look into the rule. I figured it was just one additional unblockable die.
The most important aspect of that post is in blue.

Tornado July 21st, 2016 06:38 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Just to chime in here.

Expert Climbing(Hellfire Motorcycle ect.) got a re-wording because no one really understood how to play it. I am not entirely sure the current version quite gets there but it is better.

What exactly are the effects/abilities that you want her to have in regards to climbing/movement?


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.