Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

How about something like this:

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Interesting idea. You lose synergies, but gain partial immunity. That is cool!

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Make a scenario loosely based on Captain Jack Sparrow's story
Then see how well and accurate he performs

Example:
Map starts with Glyph Of Brandar
Player A starts the game with Treasure Glyph Of Brandar on the Army Card of one of his Unique Heroes of his choice. Player A wins when his figure that has Treasure Glyph Of Brandar on its Army Card ends its turn on the Glyph Of Brandar.
Player B wins when one of his figures destroys Player A's figure that has Treasure Glyph Of Brandar on its Army Card
---
Initially, I felt the treasure map mechanic should be cut from Captain Jack Sparrow's card and redirected to a scenario specifc rule or Glyph. But the idea is growing on me, it could result in a more rounded figure. Heavier cards are becoming the expected and the norm.
-
With That said, in the above scenario, Player B could perhaps start with Treasure Glyph Of Treasure Map.
--
Captain Jack Sparrow camps the objective of the figure he's reserving his bullet for.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

This might make me sound stupid but what is the scenario used for? Is it just to test how powerful Jack Sparrow is? Or is it just a scenario based on Jack's story?

---

Going back to the Cursed Treasure Glyph, I'm just curious as to who wants it? It seems that we have a lot of different ideas on how to do the glyph and it just seems too much for us to handle at our current pace. Especially considering that the gold wasn't really that important for Jack himself. I think it might work better if it was done in a specific map and scenario, but as a glyph itself I recommend dropping it and just focus on Jack himself. Of course if you guys are adamant about it I don't mind working the glyph out.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

We don't have to create a cursed treasure glyph to complete a Jack Sparrow design, but I'd like to have one. I think we should concentrate on Jack first and finish him up, then resume the discussion on any additional glyphs.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

@Hotcakee a scenario is a map with special rules.
Not only could it be fun in and of itself, but playing such ways could reveal unforseen design issues "this power wasn't necessary" "I wish he could do this" "this power didn't work as expected" "this power was too much work for its effect/was too convoluted" etc
I'm off today so hopefully I'll get some concourse time and mock up some cards to play test

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I think it's a design better saved for when we do Barbosa
Exception being if we think Barbosa and the curse are critical to determining Jack's power level, which I don't think it is.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I'm okay with finishing Jack without the cursed glyph, and then adding the glyph as a scenario later.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

So the card I'll be playtesting is:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...f_original.jpg


JACK'S COMPASS
If Captain Jack starts to move and isn't engaged, he may add 2 to his Move as long as he ends his move on a Glyph.

RESERVED BULLET SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the beginning of the game, choose a Unique Hero. Captain Jack may only use this power on the chosen figure and only once per game.
RESERVED BULLET SPECIAL ATTACK (v2)
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the beginning of the game, choose a Unique Hero. Captain Jack reserves this special attack for the chosen figure and may use it only once per game.

PARLEY
If an opponent begins a turn with any figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15-19, the turn ends. If you roll a 20, take temporary control of that figure, its Army Card, and that turn.
----
Reserved Bullet Special Attack was surprisingly difficult to word and I'm still not 100% on it. If it's not carefully worded it'll seem as if for all figures you may either attack normally or with this special attack, but against the chosen figure only this attack may be used.
Alternate wording (v2) offered for flavor.

My Stab
 

RESERVED BULLET SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the beginning of the game, choose a Unique Hero. Once per game, Captain Jack Sparrow may attack the chosen figure with this special attack. Captain Jack Sparrow may not use this special attack on any figure other than the chosen figure.

~Dysole, giving it a whirl

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I think this version reads pretty clearly imo.
I tried to base this on Doctor Doom's mind exchange. It makes sense to me, but if there's a way to make it clearer I'm open for suggestions.
I still like the idea of making Jack's Compass a treasure glyph instead of an ability. In the movies other people stole and used Jack's compass, so it would make sense thematically.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

It's your design, so it should be your call. The power could be reworded as: Jack starts the game with the Jack's Compass glyph on this army card.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I'm fine with that. Sounds fun. You're the design lead.


Didn't get to playtest had surprise visit by the in-laws

Edit: Ana Karithon:
TURN UNDEAD SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 4. Attack 4.
Turn Undead Special Attack can be used to attack only Undead figures.
>>>
RESERVED BULLET SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the start of the game choose a Unique Hero. Reserved Bullet Special Attack can be used to attack only the chosen figure and only once per game.

Edit2: Looking at Doctor Doom:
PARLEY (v3) (Doctor Doom) (HoF)
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker from any Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15-19, the turn ends. If you roll a 20 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen figure and take that turn with the chosen figure. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before the Parley. All order markers that were on the chosen figure's card will stay on the card.
Edit2.1> The reason why I didn't state "take an immediate turn" is because you've already "immediately chosen" and thus this action is already in the immediate time.

If the chosen figure is a squad figure, should we be able to use all other members of that squad or just the one chosen for the Parley?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I think to keep it in keeping with official examples, taking control should only work on unique and uncommon heroes.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Such a limitation would drastically weaken the card and break theme - Jack especially fools the randoms. The current wording works, but only affects one figure.

Updated version for playtest:
HEART'S DESIRE
Start the game with 1 Treasure Glyph of Jack's Compass on this card.

RESERVED BULLET SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the start of the game choose a Unique Hero. Reserved Bullet Special Attack can be used to attack only the chosen figure and only once per game.

PARLEY
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker from any Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15-19, the turn ends. If you roll a 20 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen figure and take that turn with the chosen figure. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before the Parley. All order markers that were on the chosen figure's card will stay on the card.
----

Do we want the Treasure Glyph be named Jack's Compass or a more generic Treasure Compass?
If named Jack's Compass, do we want it to be an Ancient Artifact?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

What if we called it Tia Dalma's Compass or Calypso's Compass as that is where Jack originally got it from.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

This gets me thinking. Are you guys okay with Jack Sparrow taking turns with entire enemy squads? Or would you prefer he only takes a turn with one figure from a squad?

Also I think Parley should effect common figures. As Confred said, the randoms are the most easily influenced by Jack.

I think this version works.

I did some quick little research and according to the wikis and guides Jack's Compass seems to be its official name.

I say yes. It is a unique item.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

My version of Reserved Bullet Special Attack said "figure" at the end thinking a hero will always be a figure, but somehow maybe a power could make the chosen no longer a hero? But I'm fine with that change.
Edit: it's probably "chosen hero figure"

As for Parley, I haven't decided. I could choose just one figure for simplicty's sake or I could go with a more wordier whole squad version that feels a little better.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I changed figure to hero just for the sake of consistency. I think if you refer to a specific figure as a hero at the start of a power, then it should be called hero whenever it is mentioned in the same power. Just ocd on my part.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

UPDATED for testing:

HEART'S DESIRE
Start the game with 1 Ancient Artifact Treasure Glyph of Jack's Compass on this card.

RESERVED BULLET SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the start of the game choose a Unique Hero. Reserved Bullet Special Attack can be used to attack only the chosen hero and only once per game.

PARLEY
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker from any Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15-19, the turn ends. If you roll a 20 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen figure and take that turn with the chosen figure. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before the Parley. All order markers that were on the chosen figure's card will stay on the card.

---
Parley multiple figures would be fiddly, talking about sentences and not just a word or two

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Name: Captain Jack Sparrow
General: Aquilla

Life 4
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 4

Points: ???

Reserved Bullet Special Attack
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the start of the game choose a Unique Hero. Reserved Bullet Special Attack can be used to attack only the chosen hero and only once per game.

Parley
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker from the Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15-19, the turn ends. If you roll a 20 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen figure and take that turn with the chosen figure. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before the Parley. All order markers that were on the chosen figure's card will stay on the card.

Heart's Desire
At the start of the game place the Jack's Compass Treasure Glyph on this Army Card.

...

Jack's Compass
Permanent Treasure Glyph
This figure may add 2 to their move as long as they are unengaged prior to moving and end their move on a glyph.

...

So this is where Jack is at now. Does anyone have anymore suggestions? If not then we need to decide on a point cost for Jack.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Do you want the SA reserved for an opponent's Unique Hero?

Parley is still messy. What if there is more than one squad figure within 4 spaces. What about Common Heroes (that only need one card)? Which squad figure gets to move first--the opponent's or the one you control? Which ones get to attack first? It would be much cleaner to limit the power to Unique Heroes.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Yes. Good catch.

I see what you mean. I wouldn't mind limiting the use of Parley to effect only heroes, even though its a bit of a theme lose. I think we could make it work with common heroes as well as unique ones though.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

PARLEY (v3.2)
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker on any Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15-19, the turn ends. If you roll a 20 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen figure and take that turn with the chosen figure. If the chosen figure is a squad figure, no other figures in that squad may take this turn. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before the Parley. All order markers that were on the chosen figure's card will stay on the card.
---
Alternate, with different function:
PARLEY (v4)
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker on any Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13-17, figures you control cannot be attacked this turn. If you roll a 18 or higher, the turn ends.
===
Edit: PLAYTEST 1: Captain Jack {100} vs Agent Carr {100}
Map: Mole Hills
Glyphs: Random unknown, power side down, no traps.
1)
Carr wins initiative and makes his way towards the north glyph.
Captain Jack makes his way for the south glyph.
Carr reveals +1Atk Glyph, but doesn't feel like staying in place to use it.
Captain Jack makes it to his Glyph without needing his special power, +2 not being enough, would have made it one turn sooner if it was +3, but +2 is still probably fine. Captain Jack reveals treasure glyph of teleport and picks it up.
2)
Carr wins initiative and makes his way towards Captain Jack, keeping to the high grounds.
Captain Jack teleports to even higher ground and normal attacks at +1, inflicting 1 wound.
Carr ignores Parley roll of 4 and Reckonings for 2 wounds, 6atk vs 4+1def.
Captain Jack uses his Bullet and inflicts 3 wounds. Carr is at 1Life and Jack is at 2Life.
Carr ignores Parley roll of 9 and Reckonings for 2 more wounds, ending the game.
Agent Carr Wins with 1 Life remaining.
and Captain Jack drops his compass for Agent Carr to use later.
:::
Commentary: I'm glad his Attack was at 3. When facing Carr, it didn't feel like Captain Jack was swashbuckling, it felt like he was dancing as if trying to avoid a mouse squealing to get a word in - which was kind of funny. The Reserved Bullet felt good. It was a close battle, and if Parley worked once, it may have gone the other way.
= Captain Jack could use a little power boost, perhaps reducing Parley from 15 to 9?
or utilize him as a Glyph grabber and make him cheaper, around 70-80-90?
I could humor the thought of as low as 70 due to his Glyph being a prize for the opponent that kills him.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I'm a little reluctant to drop Parley's roll to 9. I'll do some play tests this week to see how well Parley does in an Army scenario. I'll test him at around 80-100 points.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

So I just ran some play tests with Jack at 90 points and here's what went down.

I started the first couple games using Parley on Heroes only just because we talked about it and I wanted to see if that was a legitimate thing to do. The short answer was a resounding no. Squads ate Jack alive. His best showing only had him making it to the third round. Parley must be used on squads for Jack to be effective.

Next I did some tests with Jack where Parley needed a 15. Jack did very well here. He was able to interrupt a lot of figure's turns, especially squads. Jack would often purposely surround himself in a sea of enemies just because it gave him a better chance of using Parley. This felt thematic and something Jack would do.

Lastly I tested Jack with Parley only needing a 12 to work. I know Confred suggested 9, but I felt that having a better than 50% chance of ending another figure's turn seemed a little too much, so I split the difference. And I think I found the sweet spot. Jack's Parley worked enough to be effective but not enough to be broken.

So 12 seems to be the best option for Parley. Note however that Jack never had the opportunity to actually take a turn with an enemy hero. This with out a doubt makes Jack more dangerous then my playtests showed, but it happens so rarely that it really shouldn't effect Jack's overall point cost too much.

Jack's Reserved Bullet came into play a few times. It felt thematic when it worked. In one play test it gave Venoc Warlord 5 wounds. The other two times it came up it seemed to disappoint. Both times only dealing 1 wound to the target hero. But that's the luck of the dice for you.

Jack's Treasure Compass did not come into play very often but was quite useful when it did. A couple of times he was able to snatch up an important glyph right before the enemy could. Another time he used his bonus movement to escape a tricky situation.

I also like the fact that the Compass becomes available when Jack gets taken out. During one of the play tests Isamu killed Jack then snatched up the compass. There was a feeling oh s#!@ as Isamu with bonus movement is a dangerous thing.

It provides a nice element of strategy. Jack was most effective close to enemy squads, but dying close to the enemy gives them a potential game changing weapon. It forces the player to really think about the best way to utilize Jack.

I think the playtests revealed a good amount about Jack, and since this post is already too long as is, I'll start another post to suggest a final draft of Captain Jack.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Name: Captain Jack Sparrow
General: Aquilla

Life 4
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 4

Points: 100

Reserved Bullet Special Attack
Range 5. Attack 6.
At the start of the game choose a Unique Hero an opponent controls. Reserved Bullet Special Attack can be used to attack only the chosen hero and only once per game.

Parley
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker on the Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, the turn ends. If the target figure is a hero and you roll a 20 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen hero and take that turn with the chosen hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen hero returns to the player who controlled the hero before the Parley. All order markers that were on the chosen hero's card will stay on the card.

Heart's Desire
At the start of the game place the Jack's Compass Treasure Glyph on this Army Card.

...

Jack's Compass
Permanent Treasure Glyph
This figure may add 2 to its move as long as it is unengaged prior to moving and ends its move on a glyph.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I like it. Got a few wording tweaks (and there are probably more :) ):

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Here's the card with the tweaked wording
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/a...P.jpg~original

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

That looks good to me Mac :thumbsup: Anyone else have more suggestions?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Should we do the usual 'Scape thing a put PARLEY 12 above the power? But other than that it looks good.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Adding the 12 does seem like a good idea. The card looks great!

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I wouldn't add 12 to the name of a power that has additional effects for rolling numbers other than a 12.

~TAF, randomly inputtingly

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

If we were going to have different power levels of Parley, I could see adding the number. Parley, as constructed here, is a Jack thing. Elizabeth tried to use Parley, but it backfired on her. Even if we do another character down the road with a similar ability, I imagine the power name will be different based on that character's theme.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

good point then it gets my :thumbsup:

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I agree with putting a value next to "Parley"
12 also sounds good because my next number suggestion was 11.

Parley wording:
1) "you may immediately choose that figure to Parley." This line was added for squads, especially common figures, especially for gaining control of them.
The lead design has removed the function of controlling commons, but for targeting purposes I think having the phrase is still a good idea as it clarifies the rest of the power, but it's not required and can be reworded using different classifiers. It is good because say you had 2 squads of Stingers and only one Stinger was within 4 spaces, the stinger player could argue saying that he was activating four of the others. The way it is written now checks if the figure is in range and if that figure had an order marker removed. Removing that line won't break the power, but keeping it does clarify.
2) Tweaked the 20 result a little to make the "12 or higher" not invalidate the turn.

PARLEY 12 (Hotcakes edit)
If an opponent reveals a numbered order marker on any Army Card of a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Captain Jack, you may immediately choose that figure to Parley. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, the turn ends. If the chosen figure is a Unique Hero and you roll a 20 or higher, instead of ending the turn, take temporary control of the chosen hero and take the turn with the chosen hero. At the end of the turn, control of the chosen hero returns to the player who controlled the hero before the Parley. All order markers that were on the chosen hero's card will stay on the card.

3) Why "reveals a numbered order marker on any Army Card" vs "reveals a numbered order marker on the Army Card? to protect against rules lawyering. I will not fight against "the" if the lead reads this and still decides he wants it to be "the"
3b) I also didn't want "any Army Card of any figure", just too many "any"s, but one "any" is needed, since both could be used, I chose the first in order.
4) I tried condensing, "instead of ending the turn, take temporary control of the chosen hero and take the turn' with the chosen hero'.", but it added confusion, "Does this mean I can the turn with any figure? with my next order marker?" etc etc, it wasn't as clear as I had imagined, which was "of course the turn would be with the chosen hero". Since it wasn't so obvious, I kept the stricken through line there.

Original

Edit: Reserved Bullet Special Attack (Mac edit commentary)
5) "Reserved Bullet Special Attack can only be used to attack the chosen hero and only once per game." vs "Reserved Bullet Special Attack can be used to attack only the chosen hero and only once per game."
re: Ana Karithorn, most recent official unit with wording related to this special power:
"TURN UNDEAD SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 4. Attack 4.
Turn Undead Special Attack can be used to attack only Undead figures."
vs
"Turn Undead Special Attack can only be used to attack Undead figures."

Edit: HEART'S DESIRE
At the start the game, place 1 Treasure Glyph of Jack's Compass on this card.
or
At the start the game, place 1 Treasure Glyph of Jack's Compass on Captain Jack's Army Card.
or
At the start the game, place 1 Treasure Glyph of Jack's Compass on Captain Jack Sparrow's Army Card.
6) I removed "Ancient Artifact" title from "place 1 Ancient Artifact Treasure Glyph of...", because that would be a given on the Compass's reference card.
7) Mac was correct in phrasing, "At the start of the game, place" vs "Start the gave with" that was my original version. While no official units place Glyphs that I know of, several place markers and the latest, most updated official unit with such a special power are the Mezzodemon Warmongers, that have the "place" phrasing.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

If the majority think the number should be in Parley, we'll put it in. I don't see us ever using Parley on another figure with a different value. The number is unnecessary.

Adding back "you may immediately choose that figure to Parley" does nothing in my mind to clarify anything. Even with that in there, the figure's controller could still say they weren't going to activate that figure. Either way it doesn't matter since the power doesn't require knowledge of which figures are to be activated with an OM. If there's a Stinger near Jack and an OM is revealed on the Stinger's card, Jack can use Parley.

"...any Army Card of a figure..." is not correct, IMO. "Any" and "a" don't go together unless "a figure" can have multiple cards, which is not the case. The current wording works, but this "...the Army Card of any figure..." would work, too.

It's up to McHotcakes if Parley will allow taking a turn with a squad figure. IMO, the current version that stops squads from doing anything and either stops a hero or gives you temporary control of the hero is sufficient.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Captain Jack, what mini are you guys using for this. This was going to eventually be done with my pirate customs, but you guys are already on it. sweet.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Here you go. It's a Disney mini figure.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

So this is what we have so far:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...8_original.jpg

:thumbsup:

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Looks good to me.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Nice work! Cool figure.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I like the current version of Parley. As far as I'm concerned I think Jack is ready to go. So unless somebody else has something else to add to him he gets a :thumbsup: from me.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Well my :thumbsup: makes 3

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

So it seems that we all approve of Jack how he is. Are we ready to move on to the next design?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

:thumbsup:

So who's next with what?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I believe its you

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Yes. You are next on the list.