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-   -   The Book of Beyonder (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34744)

GreyOwl February 12th, 2011 06:27 PM

The Book of Beyonder
 
The Book of Beyonder

C3G MARVEL SUPER SECRET EXCLUSIVE 9
SECRET WARS







The figure used for this unit is a Repainted HeroClix figure from the Avengers set.
Its model number and name are #008 / Wonder Man.




_________________________________________________________________
Character Bio - Originally a being from an infinite realm beyond the Marvel multiverse called the Beyond Realm, which was the sum of everything outside the multiverse (our multiverse was a drop in the sea that was the beyond realm), it became self aware and formed a being of immeasurable power. (He was originally described as millions of times more powerful than the entire multiverse.) The Beyonder first found our multiverse and used his firs hours to observe the actions of Steve Rogers. He found this to be an appropriate initial human form to take as he learned about this simple reality of limited dimension, which he, as a being of infinite dimensions, was planning on observing.

He later found what he thought to be a more suitable form. The Beyonder proved to be possibly the most powerful being created in the Marvel Universe. He seemed to have immense telepathic and telekinetic powers and could shapeshift and teleport (although he seemed somewhat omnipresent). The Beyonder appeared to have knowledge of all things past and present. Early on, he seemed nothing more than an observer but as time went on he did influence those around him more and more.
_________________________________________________________________

-Rulings and Clarifications-_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Incoming Synergy:
  • N/A
Outgoing Synergy:
  • N/A
_________________________________________________________________

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
  • N/A
-Heroscapers Community Contributions-

GreyOwl February 12th, 2011 06:35 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
NAME = BEYONDER

SPECIES = ENTITY
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = DEITY
PERSONALITY = INQUISITIVE

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 40

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 7
DEFENSE = 6

POINTS = 2500


MERE PAWNS
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, and instead of taking a turn with Beyonder, you may roll the 20-sided die.
• If you roll 1-9, your turn immediately ends.
• If you roll 10-17, choose one Unique Hero within 10 clear sight spaces.
• If you roll 18 or higher, choose up to two Unique Heroes within 10 clear sight spaces.
Take temporary control of each figure and immediately take a turn with each chosen figure. At the end of the turn, control of each chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before Mere Pawns was used.

SUPREME SUMMONING
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one figure within clear sight of Beyonder. You may either place the chosen figure on any empty space adjacent to Beyonder or choose another figure within clear sight of Beyonder and switch the chosen figures. Figures moved by Supreme Summoning never take any leaving engagement attacks.

NEVER-ENDING BATTLE
Any figure within clear sight of Beyonder that would be automatically destroyed instead receives four wounds.

SUPER STRENGTH

FLYING

Hahma February 12th, 2011 06:37 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Wow! This one's going to need about 500 playtests. :(

He can take turns with anywhere from 3-9 opponent's figures per round. Automatically!

I'll have to think on this puppy later. My mind is kind of fried after messing with some of the recent designs. :D

GreyOwl February 12th, 2011 06:40 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I'm sure the power level will need to be tweaked. Parts of this were pretty much a guess - it's hard to theoryscape at these power levels.

A3n February 12th, 2011 06:50 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
:shock: I don't know what to say. Good write up. Supremely powerful. & OMG 35 lives :D.

I don't know the character but on wiki it says:
Quote:

He was no longer omnipotent as many initially believed, being an incomplete Cosmic Cube, with less raw power and the same limitations of a complete cube. Nonetheless, he possessed vast psionic abilities allowing him to manipulate matter and energy at a cosmic level beyond all but the most powerful of cosmic entities.
So is this version supposed to be before that point was retconned?

Cheers

Hahma February 12th, 2011 07:16 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyOwl (Post 1339069)
I'm sure the power level will need to be tweaked. Parts of this were pretty much a guess - it's hard to theoryscape at these power levels.

Yeah, I know. Sadly, I don't have anything better to offer at the moment.

GreyOwl February 12th, 2011 07:23 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A3n (Post 1339073)
:shock: I don't know what to say. Good write up. Supremely powerful. & OMG 35 lives :D.

I don't know the character but on wiki it says:
Quote:

He was no longer omnipotent as many initially believed, being an incomplete Cosmic Cube, with less raw power and the same limitations of a complete cube. Nonetheless, he possessed vast psionic abilities allowing him to manipulate matter and energy at a cosmic level beyond all but the most powerful of cosmic entities.
So is this version supposed to be before that point was retconned?

Cheers

Yes, this is the pre-retconned version, the original one from Secret Wars. I'm not too fond of the retcon where they said all of Secret Wars was in his imagination (yet somehow Venom still exists..). And then he was retconned further into "he was a cosmic cube without a container". :roll: I'm sticking with the original all-powerful deity version.

And if you don't know the character, you should absolutely read Secret Wars and Secret Wars II. Fun stuff! :) But I'm glad I'm not the only one that doesn't recognize characters. I'd say about a third or more of the characters you guys pick are completely foreign to me...maybe someone should post a list of essential reading to catch up on each character? I nominate Spidey! :p

IAmBatman February 12th, 2011 09:12 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
My shot at some power tweaks here ... or language tweaks at the very least:

Quote:

SUPREME SUMMONING
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one figure within 10 clear sight spaces of Beyonder. You may either place the chosen figure on any empty space adjacent to Beyonder or choose another figure within 10 clear sight spaces of Beyonder and switch the chosen figures. Figures moved by Supreme Summoning never take any leaving engagement attacks.


MERE PAWNS
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, and instead of taking a turn with Beyonder, you may instead roll the 20-sided die.

* If you roll 1-8, nothing happens.
* If you roll 9-16, choose any one Unique Hero.
* If you roll 17 or higher, choose any two Unique Heroes.

Take temporary control of any chosen Heroes and immediately take a turn with each of the chosen Heroes. At the end of the turn, control of the chosen Heroes returns to the player who controlled the Hero before Mere Pawns was used. All Order Markers that were on the chosen Hero's card will stay on the card.
Still powerful, but with at least a few limitations to place it within the game ...

GreyOwl February 12th, 2011 10:34 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Hmmm...on Supreme Summoning, I'm not sure the 10 space limitation will mean that much. That's pretty far, and most cases will fall into it anyway, right? Plus thematicallly, he moved people across mutliverses...

On Mere Pawns, I don't like that he has a chance of failure. He's all-powerful and omnipotent, so it doesn't make sense to me. Plus if he has a 40% chance of failure, they don't seem like "mere pawns" anymore. :) But I can see getting rid of the option to move 3 unique heroes. Perhaps 1-16, choose one unique hero, and 17+ choose two?

IAmBatman February 12th, 2011 10:58 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I don't think he'd pass a competitive fun test (is he fun to play against) if there weren't some restrictions on those powers. I just don't want to play against a guy when there's absolutely zero way I can avoid him moving me pretty much wherever he wants or controlling me whenever he wants.
Anti-Monitor in the comics erased entire universes without a thought. In Heroscape, our version can destroy a bunch of Unique Heroes on his turn if he rolls a 20 for each.

GreyOwl February 12th, 2011 11:01 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Okay, how about something like this then?

* If you roll 1-8, choose one Unique Hero you control.
* If you roll 9-16, choose any one Unique Hero.
* If you roll 17 or higher, choose any two Unique Heroes.

IAmBatman February 12th, 2011 11:29 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Yeah, that's workable. Especially since, in under 2510 point games, it's essentially the same thing as what I posted. :-P

GreyOwl February 13th, 2011 08:28 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Exactly. The only difference is that thematically, this version doesn't come across like he failed at anything.

IAmBatman February 13th, 2011 09:00 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
What about Supreme Summoning? Any way we can get a limit on the range of that one? Even if the limit is just "clear sight" that'd be a nice check to put on it. (In fact, clear sight might be a better limit to put on it than 10 spaces).

GreyOwl February 13th, 2011 09:03 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Sure, I can live with "clear sight".

IAmBatman February 13th, 2011 09:16 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
SUPREME SUMMONING
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one figure within clear sight of Beyonder. You may either place the chosen figure on any empty space adjacent to Beyonder or choose another figure within clear sight of Beyonder and switch the chosen figures. Figures moved by Supreme Summoning never take any leaving engagement attacks.

GreyOwl February 13th, 2011 09:50 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
So you want to drop the line about not moving the figures onto terrain that could wound or kill them?

Hahma February 13th, 2011 10:08 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
SUPREME SUMMONING
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one figure within clear sight of Beyonder. You may either place the chosen figure on any empty space adjacent to Beyonder or choose another figure within clear sight of Beyonder and switch the chosen figures. Figures moved by Supreme Summoning never take any leaving engagement attacks and cannot be placed on terrain that would wound or kill them.

IAmBatman February 13th, 2011 02:26 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I don't like that line ... it feels too "customy." With the "switching" it would take fairly niche situations where you'd move one unit to the spot of another and it would end up hurting or killing that unit. So that wouldn't be a problem for me.
I think if we moved Beyonder's move down to 4, then he'd also be too slow to really easily set himself up next to molten lava or anything, and you could probably tie him down with engagement enough to stop him from getting too cheesy in that way.
I'd really prefer to avoid that line if possible.

GreyOwl February 13th, 2011 05:20 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I'm perfectly fine removing that line. I actually just left it in because you had it in your brainstorming ideas, so I thought you had a good reason for it. But if not, I say let's remove it.

IAmBatman February 13th, 2011 07:20 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
:lol: Yeah, that was a pretty old post. I guess my aesthetics have shifted since? :reapershrug: Also, the new lava rules help a lot.

GreyOwl February 14th, 2011 08:20 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
First post updated. Anybody see any other changes they'd like to discuss?

SirGalahad February 14th, 2011 08:35 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
just minor wording, which I can come back to.

IAmBatman February 14th, 2011 10:13 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I think we'll probably only know if further power checks are in order if we test this one. :-)

IAmBatman February 14th, 2011 10:14 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Should 3 army tests pretty much be our standard for Event Heroes?

Hahma February 14th, 2011 10:58 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 1340149)
Should 3 army tests pretty much be our standard for Event Heroes?

It should be the minimum IMO.

Griffin February 14th, 2011 12:17 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I agree. 3 Army Tests from 3 hand picked playtesters.

IAmBatman February 14th, 2011 01:14 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
So, I think this is probably ready for an initial, if GO agrees. I'm on Doctor Fate for the next few days, though. :-)

Griffin February 14th, 2011 01:43 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I will see about running some tests tomorrow night.

IAmBatman February 14th, 2011 01:53 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Sweet. :-) You da man.

Spidey'tilIDie February 14th, 2011 03:38 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 1340290)
Sweet. :-) You da man.

Yes, you be. Da Man, that is.

GreyOwl February 14th, 2011 04:19 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Sounds good to me!

IAmBatman February 16th, 2011 11:50 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT (BEYONDER)


- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST
/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS Event Hero rules prevent you from taking control of an opponent's Event Hero, so no mind control loops possible here.

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS Though if he's hitting the Mere Pawns rolls, he's very scary ...

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS He felt very like Beyonder

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS The changes to Mere Pawns let the opposing army get plenty of attacks in on him and feel like they had some control over their own destiny! Plus it's fun to have Doom steal Beyonder's powers!

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS


_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass? PASS @ 1800
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder vs. Anti-Monitor (Normally I wouldn't use Anti-Monitor in a playtest, but since I'm doing three others, and since I feel Anti-Monitor is his closest comparison for points, I thought a head-to-head could be a helpful start).
Spoiler Alert!

_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass? PASS
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder (1800) vs. Thor, Silver Surfer, Doctor Doom, Doombot x1, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Red Skull (1810)
Spoiler Alert!


_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder, Riddler, Speedy, Sentinel (x3) (3000) vs. Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Professor X, Jean Grey, Magma, Wolverine, Pyro, Blob, Mystique, Colossus, Angel, Beast, Molly Hayes, and Cyclops (3000)
Spoiler Alert!

_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder (3000) vs. Graviton, MODOK, Loki, Annihilus, Red Skull, HYDRA Agents x3, Punisher, Thanos, Super-Skrull, and Madame HYDRA (3000)
Spoiler Alert!

IAmBatman February 17th, 2011 01:50 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
OK, I updated Beyonder with his first two tests. I'm done for tonight, but please pay special attention to the second test and let me know what you think of the proposed tweaks! :-)
I will say, he feels very thematically spot on, he just needs a couple of changes to be more fun to play against!

whitestuff February 17th, 2011 02:01 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Doesn't sound like a fun battle... Sounds frustrating in fact. Hopefully the tweaks will help with that...

IAmBatman February 17th, 2011 02:03 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Yeah. There were lots of castle pillars on the map I was on, so even if I'd just been able to avoid being controlled when I wasn't in clear sight of Beyonder that would've made tons of difference! On a flat map, though, it wouldn't help, so I think a range of 10 spaces at maximum is needed so even if you turn me on my brethren, I can at least try to make you pay for it on the following turn!
Also having a slightly higher chance for him to miss the roll would be nice. Controlling 2 enemy figures is huge.

Hahma February 17th, 2011 09:28 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Seems like the proposed changes should help Bats. He can still feel like Beyonder but not feel so much like Beyonder that he totally sucks to play against. I can imagine how lame it would be to sit there and watch your army kill each other and not have any control or recourse and can't even get out of your own starting zone.

Perhaps healers like Wolvie and Deadpool as well as some special d20 defenses to help keep your army alive when they fight each other. You kind of have to build an army that counters itself against it's units to help minimize damage when Beyonder is doing his nasty work.

Nice work on this by the way you playtesting machine :thumbsup:

IAmBatman February 17th, 2011 09:56 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hahma
Nice work on this by the way you playtesting machine :thumbsup:

Thanks. :-) I took the day before yesterday off, though! :-P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hahma
Seems like the proposed changes should help Bats. He can still feel like Beyonder but not feel so much like Beyonder that he totally sucks to play against. I can imagine how lame it would be to sit there and watch your army kill each other and not have any control or recourse and can't even get out of your own starting zone.

Yeah, it was pretty rough. A lot of fun for the Beyonder side of things, though, and definitely felt thematic! I just think it needs to be reeled in a bit.
Also, it seems silly, thematically, for Beyonder to make guys fight when he can't even see them. He'd want front row seats!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hahma
Perhaps healers like Wolvie and Deadpool as well as some special d20 defenses to help keep your army alive when they fight each other. You kind of have to build an army that counters itself against it's units to help minimize damage when Beyonder is doing his nasty work.

Yeah, with almost 2,000 points, it's hard not to take units that can devastate your own guys! For instance, Thor was forced to use his God of Thunderstrike in his startzone, and Red Skull Dust of Deathed Silver Surfer. Doom's Elaborate Pit Trap did at least stop a turn or two in there, which was nice, though.
Spidey having his D20 power and being the last figure left besides Thor (and not being very good at hurting Thor) helped keep those two alive several more rounds, though. It took me about two rounds too long to realize that with just Thor and Spidey left I shouldn't bother with Mere Pawns anymore, and should switch to using Beyonder's normal attack from height on Thor. If I'd done that sooner, I doubt Beyonder would've taken more than like 15 wounds. Beyonder, on perpetual height, would've been 8 attack/7 defense, against Thor's 8/8, meaning Beyonder would probably just take a few more wounds than Thor before finishing Thor off.

GreyOwl February 17th, 2011 11:17 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 1343097)
Also, it seems silly, thematically, for Beyonder to make guys fight when he can't even see them. He'd want front row seats!

I think this is perfectly thematic, because he's omnipotent. He has front-row seats even he doesn't have line of sight.

That being said, I think all your suggested changes are good. I knew he'd have to be tweaked some way or another, it was just hard to say how without the playtesting.

IAmBatman February 17th, 2011 11:36 AM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Cool. :-) Well I'll wait until the OP is updated with the changes and resume testing at that point.

Hahma February 17th, 2011 12:56 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyOwl (Post 1343160)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 1343097)
Also, it seems silly, thematically, for Beyonder to make guys fight when he can't even see them. He'd want front row seats!

I think this is perfectly thematic, because he's omnipotent. He has front-row seats even he doesn't have line of sight.

That being said, I think all your suggested changes are good. I knew he'd have to be tweaked some way or another, it was just hard to say how without the playtesting.

Yeah, there has to be a little break in theme for the sake of gameplay as it doesn't do us any good to design a unit that nobody wants to play against because it's totally unfair and not any fun. Glad you agree with the changes Bats suggested as I think it's important to have playability and fun while maintaining as much theme as we can in achieving the playability aspect. :D

GreyOwl February 17th, 2011 05:26 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Okay, I think I got all the changes updated. You might want to make sure I didn't miss any though.

IAmBatman February 17th, 2011 05:47 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Looks good. Just a couple of small wording nitpicks - the second "instead" is redundant in Mere Pawns. Also, I think you should say "up to 2" and "up to 3" unique heroes so it's clear that he can use the power even if he's choosing only one unique hero.

GreyOwl February 17th, 2011 06:11 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Done.

IAmBatman February 17th, 2011 07:53 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
OK, I retested the second test and added it to that spoiler. :-) Please check it out for questions on direction moving forward!

Hahma February 17th, 2011 08:23 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Hmmmmmmmm............. well after reviewing your latest test results and comments Bats, there are two ways to look at this.

1. We move forward with him at 2000 points with 35 lives, which will afford the use of option 1-13 for Mere Pawns more often as at 2000 points you will be more likely to have other Heroes in your army than at 2200 or higher.

2. We move forward with him having 40 lives and maybe 300 more points and a little less likely to have other Heroes in his army unless people are playing 3000 point armies.

I guess option 1. would be more likely to use all of his powers, thought goodness gracious he'd be scary with Mister Mixosplsyxt in his army:shock:

IAmBatman February 17th, 2011 09:00 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
Yeah ... I guess I'm not too worried about him having anybody else in his army or not, so I don't mind seeing us rocket past 2,000 here. But 2,000 is a nice round number too and I think he could come in there with the life back down to 35.

Hahma February 17th, 2011 09:12 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - Design Phase
 
I guess not having someone else in his army isn't too bad either as it would make the roll for Mere Pawns more of a risk and not an auto benefit for him. Even if we did go higher it would be a good idea to keep that 1-13 option just in case people have a massive Event Hero beat down with Anti-Monitor and a bunch of heroes vs. Beyonder and a bunch of heroes. :D


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