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IAmBatman May 22nd, 2019 08:48 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yep. And since these rules are more or less meant to work for enclosed structures as well, there is plenty of likelihood of additions for things a figure can stand on.

#5 was the easy to answer question, though. I'm going to try to review the rules and bumble my way through 1-4 tonight.

IAmBatman May 22nd, 2019 10:11 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrNobody (Post 2283369)
1) Moving into vehicles. This is something I’ve never got. Maybe I’m missing something, but why not make them similar to the already-existing concept of glyphs; you enter a vehicle by moving onto a space that vehicle already occupies, and your move ends there. This would also make people entering vehicles take LEAs, which is something I’m for.

How do you move onto an occupied space?

How is that better than ending movement on an adjacent space allowing you to enter the vehicle?

We don't mention whether or not a figure takes leaving engagement attacks when entering the vehicle - just that they don't take them from figures occupying the vehicles. This could all probably be spelled out more clearly and succinctly, though. The fact that figures outside the vehicle and figures inside the vehicle are never engaged probably makes the LEA language that's there currently unnecessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrNobody (Post 2283369)
2) Specific entry/exit points. Again, it’s just complication where I don’t feel it’s totally needed. Plus, removing this will make it a lot easier for people not using the exact mini listed.

This isn't something necessary or that will be necessary for most vehicles. It's more to open up potential design space for hypothetical massive vehicles like a space ship, where just entering from any old space would seem unthematic. Most vehicles simply won't have these spaces specified.

But some enclosed structures, like the Small House, or the Port-a-Potty might, as might some large vehicles. Even something like an 18-Wheeler would be odd to enter from the side of the trailer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrNobody (Post 2283369)
3) Exiting a vehicle you control vs. one you don’t take place on different parts of your turn? That’s the way I’m reading it at least. Exiting a vehicle you control happens after moving, but exiting an opponent-controlled vehicle takes place instead of movement? Honestly just not a huge fan of the whole exiting section, but I don’t have any immediate suggestions for changes.

I won't argue that the rules could probably be written better/more succinctly, but both happen instead of moving normally on your turn. It's just that if you're in the vehicle, you can move the vehicle before exiting. We could potentially slow that down and just make it so you have to give up your whole move just to exit, but that would diminish the value of the vehicles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrNobody (Post 2283369)
4) Destroying vehicles; who exactly gets the excess wounds? So a car has 2 people in it, and 1 person on top. The car had 1 life left and took 4 wounds, making an excess of 3 wounds. So do all 3 of those figures receive 3 wounds each or is it 1 wound per figure? I honestly just liked the old unblockable attack die system better.

I believe it's all the figures take three wounds. Should be written more clearly - open to new language. I believe this was a @Tornado idea for balancing the VDOs as a pod-hideout, so he can comment more on it.

Tornado May 23rd, 2019 12:02 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
You got it right Bats. That can be adjusted as needed.

Not sure if I agree with 3. You can now.attack after moving from inside the car which is huge. Hard to say until we.try this stuff out. :)

I know it looks like a lot but I think it will all play pretty smoothly once you try it.out or at least that is the goal. :)

MrNobody May 23rd, 2019 02:25 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
For standing on DOs, I've kind of been in the same place where I've just made up rules on the fly. But if we're moving towards DOs as a draftable and balanced part of the game experience, should now be the time to work on standardizing that as well? I'm just thinking an aerial view of the "mini" showing spots a figure could stand on linked in the books would be plenty. (Assuming there are still people around who have them)

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2283560)
How do you move onto an occupied space?

How is that better than ending movement on an adjacent space allowing you to enter the vehicle?

We don't mention whether or not a figure takes leaving engagement attacks when entering the vehicle - just that they don't take them from figures occupying the vehicles. This could all probably be spelled out more clearly and succinctly, though. The fact that figures outside the vehicle and figures inside the vehicle are never engaged probably makes the LEA language that's there currently unnecessary.

"A figure may enter a vehicle by moving onto a space that vehicle currently occupies. A figure may only onto that space and enter the vehicle if all conditions for entering that vehicle are met. After entering the vehicle, that figure's movement immediately ends."

I dunno, that wording is probably crap, but you get my point. The current system just seems at odds with how you move onto pretty much everything else in the game. You don't activate a glyph by ending your move adjacent to it, then doing an extra thing to actually get onto it. You just move onto it, and there you go. Same with moving onto terrain and destructible objects. I feel that rooting the "moving into stuff" process in the same mechanics as the "moving onto stuff" process will make it a lot more intuitive than having an extra thing you have to do.

I just misread the line about LEAs. That's entirely my bad.

Quote:

This isn't something necessary or that will be necessary for most vehicles. It's more to open up potential design space for hypothetical massive vehicles like a space ship, where just entering from any old space would seem unthematic. Most vehicles simply won't have these spaces specified.

But some enclosed structures, like the Small House, or the Port-a-Potty might, as might some large vehicles. Even something like an 18-Wheeler would be odd to enter from the side of the trailer.
That makes sense I suppose. I can see the argument for something big like a space ship or the 18-Wheeler. I'd still push for simplicity on something like a porta-potty though. I will mention that my system of entering a vehicle would allow for more streamlining here. :p Just designate a side of a hex as the "door" and allow figures to only enter a vehicle by crossing over that side of the hex. I can make a diagram if that sounds like nonsense.
Quote:

I won't argue that the rules could probably be written better/more succinctly, but both happen instead of moving normally on your turn. It's just that if you're in the vehicle, you can move the vehicle before exiting. We could potentially slow that down and just make it so you have to give up your whole move just to exit, but that would diminish the value of the vehicles.
Could it just be written so both occur after your movement? You can't move a vehicle you can't control (I think) so it would be the same effect, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2283586)
I know it looks like a lot but I think it will all play pretty smoothly once you try it.out or at least that is the goal. :)

I think you're vastly underestimating my stupidity. :p

But all joking aside, that's really where a lot of my concerns come from. I'm not a smart guy, and I like games I can understand. Like I said, I'm drawn to Heroscape over other games because of the simplicity. It's something the original designers of the game seemed to really strive for. I like that I don't have to crack open a rulebook for 90% of the games I play. I've always had to have the rules beside me for vehicles and I probably always will, but I'd like to minimize how many times I have to look at them. Like I get we'll probably never get them down to the simple perfection of the SI or Spell rules, just cause there's a lot more going on. But it would be cool to get as much of it as possible to click in the way those 2 rulesets do. You pretty much never need to look at those PDFs because the rules have this "duh" factor to them. That's where I'm coming from.

If the rest of C3G disagrees with my ideas, I can see why and I wouldn't be upset about it or anything. I'll still try my best to chip in and help no matter what, cause I want my Tardis. :)

Yodaking May 23rd, 2019 03:07 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
On the porta-potty, we ran into the issue where a row of them would create a LOS barrier they you couldn't shoot through, but you could just walk through that same wall. In real life a porta-potty only has one door, you don't enter on one side of a row of the and exit on the other side. If you want to do that you'll have to cut or blow a hole in it, which requires an attack.

A3n May 23rd, 2019 06:53 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2283608)
On the porta-potty, we ran into the issue where a row of them would create a LOS barrier they you couldn't shoot through, but you could just walk through that same wall. In real life a porta-potty only has one door, you don't enter on one side of a row of the and exit on the other side. If you want to do that you'll have to cut or blow a hole in it, which requires an attack.

Or if you are a few old guys planning to rob a bank you cut the back out of it ahead of time & make sure you have a change of clothes to hide your escape. ;)

~A3n, Going in Style

IAmBatman May 23rd, 2019 08:47 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
MrNobody I'm completely fine with your taking a crack at some simplified/clearer wording based on your suggestions. I definitely am in hopes that the final version of this has better pictures/art to go with it to improve the understanding of the rules, but that's out of my purview. I've taken the wording about as far as I can at this point.

Really, though, the biggest thing we're trying to nail down right now is the mechanics, followed by perfecting the wording (in Final Editing, probably).

I'd be fine with doing that change to the movement. I'd love to see you take a crack at writing it out. :-) I find when writing rules I often get too caught up chasing corner cases and over-explain to the detriment of clear flow.

johnny139 May 23rd, 2019 08:54 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I think it makes sense to at least try the more complex version, see what plays intuitively, see what makes you go back to double check the rules a bunch, and chart a course from there. Everyone being a bit rusty might work in our favor. :lol:

IAmBatman May 23rd, 2019 08:55 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
For sure. :-) I'm all about T-Spinny spearheading that when he gets back from his trip. I know Ronin and I are both poised to jump on tests after him.

The biggest thing to figure out is if this version is fun! The last version failed that test.

Ronin May 23rd, 2019 10:22 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2283631)
For sure. :-) I'm all about T-Spinny spearheading that when he gets back from his trip. I know Ronin and I are both poised to jump on tests after him.

The biggest thing to figure out is if this version is fun! The last version failed that test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny139 (Post 2283630)
I think it makes sense to at least try the more complex version, see what plays intuitively, see what makes you go back to double check the rules a bunch, and chart a course from there. Everyone being a bit rusty might work in our favor. :lol:

:word: to both of these.

I think the first run at this that got black-flagged on the last lap taught us that there's a lot going on here and we're not necessarily gonna nail it in one take. Might take a few more iterative improvements on the ruleset.

Definitely appreciate the ideas for simplifying, Nobody! Don't ever feel like you're being disrespectful by talking about what parts of a design do and don't work for you.

Lord Pyre June 4th, 2019 12:39 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I have a question that is probably answered somewhere but I can't find it. Why do you have to reveal an OM to move a vehicle? I was looking over Lady Blackhawk, and she's an adventurer but doesn't work with Mr. Fantastic while driving a car. Considering driving basically replaces your turn, it doesn't seem overpowered to not require an OM to drive it.

I've actually never played with the car, and it looks pretty fun.

Tornado June 4th, 2019 03:38 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Good question. I actually did not play it that way. :)

IAmBatman June 4th, 2019 03:45 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Was that one we put on after I ran the Civvies and they terrorized while driving?

Tornado June 4th, 2019 03:59 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Not sure but I did not play it that way. I moved a VDO with an OM-less turn but never moved more than one VDO per revealed OM.

Lord Pyre June 4th, 2019 04:10 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2287182)
Was that one we put on after I ran the Civvies and they terrorized while driving?

Wow that sounds hilarious! But it could easily be "instead of taking a turn with a figure" rather than "instead of moving" to prevent weirdness like that, couldn't it?

IAmBatman June 4th, 2019 04:21 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yeah, something like that is probably possible. I'm waiting for the initial test to be posted before suggesting any more rules changes, though.

Tornado June 4th, 2019 04:23 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
So I take it you want me to run it as written? :)

IAmBatman June 4th, 2019 04:24 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2287208)
So I take it you want me to run it as written? :)

Typically that's how we do it. :-P I believe Ronin is officially the LD here, though.

Lord Pyre June 4th, 2019 04:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I wasn't even necessarily trying to hijack a test in progress, it was just an observation I made that I wanted to keep in the sanctum since you guys were working on stuff anyway. :)

IAmBatman June 4th, 2019 04:42 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Seems like it was pretty relevant! :-) Thanks for posting.

MrNobody June 4th, 2019 04:42 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
The idea is so that you can’t load Red Ghost and the Super Apes in a car then have them move it 4 times per turn, right? It almost seems easier to limit it so just the driver can drive.

IAmBatman June 4th, 2019 04:45 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I'd like to do it the way you're saying, yes. I'm honestly not sure where the rules left off.

quozl June 4th, 2019 05:10 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrNobody (Post 2287224)
The idea is so that you canít load Red Ghost and the Super Apes in a car then have them move it 4 times per turn, right? It almost seems easier to limit it so just the driver can drive.

I thought's that what the latest version says: only the driver can drive.

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 03:48 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
@Tornado are we waiting for you to run the initial here or are you waiting for @Ronin for confirmation on what to run? Either way :bump:

Tornado June 25th, 2019 03:50 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I think I lost a little interest when I learned how the rules work. :)
I will try to get to it soon-ish. I want to make sure the next release is kosher first.

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 03:52 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2290545)
I think I lost a little interest when I learned how the rules work. :)
I will try to get to it soon-ish. I want to make sure the next release is kosher first.

:lol: That's not great. This has been a tough nut to crack for sure.

Yeah, my focus has been on Christmas in July as well, but I find stuff like this (campaigns, skyscrapers, etc.) is easy to just ignore in lieu of ongoing releases if we let ourselves.

Tornado June 25th, 2019 03:55 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yeah, I know. I am going to try mock up a Danny the Street and see if that gets me going again.
I just do not like the OM reveal requirement to drive a car so I have not given it much thought in a while.

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 03:59 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
OK, that's in here:

Quote:

MOVING VEHICLES

In addition to the Size, Life, and Defense values contained on destructible object cards, Vehicles have a Movement value. After revealing an Order Marker on one of your Army Cards, instead of moving normally with all of the figures associated with that card, if one of the figures from that card occupies the Driver space a Vehicle, you may move that Vehicle.
You may only move a Vehicle once for each Order Marker you reveal.
Do you think you'd like it better if you just got to do it when activating a card, instead of activating all figures on that card? The goal is to prevent squads from dominating with them over Unique Heroes, but that might be doable without the OM restriction.

Tornado June 25th, 2019 04:08 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I think you should only be able to drive one VDO per revealed OM.
So you could activate Lady B with Mr F and she could drive a car but you could not drive 2-4 cars, just one per OM.

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 04:19 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I'm down with that. And you're running the initial, so I think it's reasonable you can tweak the rules to find what's fun.

quozl June 25th, 2019 04:20 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
So instead of this:

Quote:

After revealing an Order Marker on one of your Army Cards, instead of moving normally with all of the figures associated with that card, if one of the figures from that card occupies the Driver space a Vehicle, you may move that Vehicle.
You may only move a Vehicle once for each Order Marker you reveal.
We do this:

Quote:

Instead of moving normally with an Army Card you control, if one of the figures from that card occupies the Driver space for a Vehicle, you may move that Vehicle. You may only move a Vehicle once each player turn.

Yodaking June 25th, 2019 04:21 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2290563)
I think you should only be able to drive one VDO per revealed OM.
So you could activate Lady B with Mr F and she could drive a car but you could not drive 2-4 cars, just one per OM.


Makes sense to me. Spell rules have a one spell cast per OM reveal and it helps quite a bit to limit issues.

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 04:21 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
That looks nice and clean to me. :up: Would love to hear from Ronin, but I'd say if you feel inspired, Tornado, run with it.

Tornado June 25th, 2019 04:25 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Cool. I have had the Sports Car card out for awhile now and use it as a wound marker holder for whatever I am testing. :)
Where were we for cost? 100?

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 04:27 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yes. Cost is probably the final thing we'll dial in, though. Not like it particularly matters if it ends up lower or higher.

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 04:33 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Ronin has expressed his apathy for steering the thread to me on Discord, so I've got the go-ahead to update the text here (and will momentarily). Hope that gets you unstuck, Tornado!

Tornado June 25th, 2019 06:55 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Setting up shortly. :)

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 07:21 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Sweet!

Tornado June 25th, 2019 11:21 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Got one test in. Fun stuff.

IAmBatman June 25th, 2019 11:36 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2290702)
Got one test in. Fun stuff.

Cool. Fun is the key. So you feel the rules are working now?

Tornado June 25th, 2019 11:57 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yea, I think we are on the right track. :)

IAmBatman June 26th, 2019 12:02 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Sweet. :-) Thanks for taking the wheel.

Tornado June 26th, 2019 10:44 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
OK, here are the results.

Sports Car x2(200), Mr. Fantastic(235), Invisible Woman(215), Lady Blackhawk(110), Iron Man: Hasbro(240) vs. Frankenstein, Dragon Man, Wendigo & Skrull Infiltrator[1000]

R1:
DM moves. Sue and Reed hop in the Blue Car, Reed declares "I am driving'". Frank moves. Lady B takes the wheel of the Red Car, Reed puts up on the road. Frank moves. Iron Man jumps in the Red Car and Lady B floors it, reaches out the window firing wildly and missing Frank.

R2: Lady B Hits and Runs(9+2), wounds Frank, returns misses Frank, Kicks out Iron Man who jets off to high ground and misses Frank who takes one big step and puts his foot on the bumper of the Red Car, the Sword of the Archangel crashing through the windshield and skewering Lady B for 2wounds, Wendigo Leaps, but fails to put his fist through the driver's side window. Lady B Hits and Runs(3+2), misses Frank and flees, Iron Man continues to roll pathetic(3/20skulls), misses Frank, Sue and Reed are too far away to attack. Frank turns his head, spins and charges, misses Tony, Wendi goes after Lady B but fails again. Reed Hits and Runs(3), misses Wendigo, then stretches out an arm to slap Wendigo for a wound. Frank takes a swipe from Tony and runs Reed through an open window for a wound, Wendi continues to claw away like Cujo on the side of the Red Car.

R3: Tony finally strikes Frank but his Undead nature resists, Reed H&R(13) wounds Frank, and punches Frank for another wound. Frank rams his sword through the car door and deep into Reed's leg for 2wounds, Wendigo smells blood and manages to wound Lady as she puts back her seat to avoid claws. Reed H&R(16), wounds Frank, then backs over him to finish the job(actually a normal attack). Frank has OM2. Stark wounds Wendi, Reed H&R(12), wounds Wendi, misses with a punch. Wendigo reaches in and yanks Lady B through the windshield and consumes her, heals, a Skrull Infiltrator appears in the driver's seat, "Nice Ride", Wendi spins, strides and rams his head in the driver's side window of the Blue Car, but his jaws just snap air as Sue throws up a force field.

R4: Tony continues to do nothing, Reed H&R(12), wounds Wendi, misses with a strike. Wendi misses Reed. Stark 2wounds Wendi, Reed H&R(2), misses, misses. Wendi snatches Reed's arm and slurps him up like a noodle, heals, jumps in Blue Car, "Hello pretty", 4wounds Sue. Tony misses Wendi. DM flies in, misses Stark.

R5: Wendi eats Sue, heals, Hits and Runs(6) Tony and 2wounds him with a claw. Tony misses. Wendi H&R(18) wounds Tony, KOs Tony.

Winner: Wendi 2/7 wounds, Dragon Man: Full, Skrull Infiltrator, Sports Car: Full, Sports Car: Full.

Fun game! Was pretty neat trying to run people over and shooting out the window.
This feels tailor made for the F4. Sue is able to hide inside the Sports Car where no one can attack her directly, so now you must either attack the Car with 8 Defense(+2 from Sue) or in this case, Reed with 9 Defense. Also being able to Hit&Run and attack each time with Reed is really nice, especially when you roll low and you only get a turn with him.
However once you defeat Reed, you can takeover the Car and go after Sue directly.

The Skrull Infiltrator is an eye opener as they are a pretty hard counter to any VDO for a measly 10 points. Once you KO the Driver you can immediately take over the VDO for yourself. It may be a good idea to draft a SI or two whenever one drafts a VDO.
Shooting out the windows from the Car felt right, but punching out the window was a little weird like at the end when Wendigo killed Stark from low ground while inside the Car.

Tornado June 26th, 2019 10:45 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
I want to try them again but with lower cost armies, like around 600-700 against a less dominant opponent. Pretty solid so far.

IAmBatman June 26th, 2019 11:43 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Glad punching out the window of a car felt wrong, because it shouldn't be doable! :-)

Quote:

Figures inside a Vehicle that is Large or smaller are considered adjacent to each other and the Vehicle itself, but are never considered adjacent to or engaged with figures outside of the Vehicle. If enemy figures occupy the same Large or smaller Vehicle, they are considered engaged.
Now punching other figures within the car? Totally fair game.

Tornado June 26th, 2019 11:59 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
OK, I was going to suggest range only. :)
Cool, I think it only happened once with Wendigo who could have just got out first.
Everyone on the Adventurer team has Range, that Range 2 on Reed is huge.

IAmBatman June 26th, 2019 12:03 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Yeah, but it at least stops Reed from using Rubber Wrap, which I find to be his most annoying weapon.

quozl June 26th, 2019 12:11 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Waiting for new Initial Test
 
Does it mean that adjacent figures outside the vehicle can't attack figures inside the vehicle?


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