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-   -   The Pre-SoV Workshop (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=47761)

Kinseth January 28th, 2014 01:38 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 1907444)
I actually think that the extra defense dice when engaged with 2+ opponents makes for more interesting tactical decisions overall. There are plenty of times where it will be the opponent who engages the Bladesmen instead of being the other way around. If COMBAT PROWESS gives the BLADESMEN an extra defense, the opponent may be more reluctant to engage the Bladesman with more than one unit to get extra attacks in. It also works to slightly mitigate powers like MOB ATTACK from the Cutters.

JANDAR'S FAVOR, on the other hand, is a static power that neither player can do anything about. There are other powers like that, and if this one didn't feel tacked on it could be okay, but as it stands I think it detracts from the elegance of the card. :2cents:

I understand your point of view on this, The myth behind these figures is such that they trained in Nastralund, the best of the best Bladesmen. These fighters more or less have been "Blessed" by Jandar. Hence why the ability to roll Jandar dice, and why they are "Tougher" than the average human.

Remember that while you might think of 4 Def dice with Jandars Favor = 6 Def dice, it isn't really the same. The ceiling of these guys isn't 6.

Sure we could boost their def to 5, and get the bonus with Combat Prowess to 6 if engaged with 2. Most players are not so concerned with giving the enemy a bonus +1 def. I don't think any opponent is going to think twice of moving 2 figures to engage with the hops of one defeating one of the bladesmen.

I think that this ability adds a nice flavor to them that is consistent with the theme of the figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 1907414)
I like EAGLE'S CRY alright, but it feels like it would be cleaner if it were modeled more after the Axegrinders' Strategic Bonding, something like:
Before taking a turn with the Nastralund Bladesmen, you may take a turn with one Valiant Warrior you control. If you do not take a turn with one Valiant Warrior you control, you may move one additional Nastralund Bladesmen during their turn.

I think this makes most sense, the Bonding before a hero moves made more sense when it was with Eltahale. It does not make much sense anymore to have the figures go first, and then a hero.

Ixe January 28th, 2014 03:15 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanieLoche (Post 1907754)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ixe (Post 1907749)
Even then, he is probably still a little overpriced. When he can't move after attacking, needing to destroy a figure inherently limits how many attacks he gets. Adding in the further penalty of reducing his number of attack dice just seems like an unnecessary burden, playing like a bad Bloodlust.

It's only for the played turn that his attack is reduced, not for the entire game.

Yes... I am sorry if it was ambiguous in my writing on how I thought it worked. I understood the ability. Even for just that turn, I feel like it plays like a bad version of Blood Hungry Special Attack (Brunak's ability. I mistakenly said bloodlust). When, for just that turn, he can only hit those adjacent to him anyway and that he destroys, it is already limiting on how many attacks he gets. Further reducing his number of attack dice for just that turn seemed an unnecessary penalty on top of an already limited ability..

Ixe January 28th, 2014 04:21 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 1907756)
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 1907444)
I actually think that the extra defense dice when engaged with 2+ opponents makes for more interesting tactical decisions overall. There are plenty of times where it will be the opponent who engages the Bladesmen instead of being the other way around. If COMBAT PROWESS gives the BLADESMEN an extra defense, the opponent may be more reluctant to engage the Bladesman with more than one unit to get extra attacks in. It also works to slightly mitigate powers like MOB ATTACK from the Cutters.

JANDAR'S FAVOR, on the other hand, is a static power that neither player can do anything about. There are other powers like that, and if this one didn't feel tacked on it could be okay, but as it stands I think it detracts from the elegance of the card. :2cents:

I understand your point of view on this, The myth behind these figures is such that they trained in Nastralund, the best of the best Bladesmen. These fighters more or less have been "Blessed" by Jandar. Hence why the ability to roll Jandar dice, and why they are "Tougher" than the average human.

Remember that while you might think of 4 Def dice with Jandars Favor = 6 Def dice, it isn't really the same. The ceiling of these guys isn't 6.

Sure we could boost their def to 5, and get the bonus with Combat Prowess to 6 if engaged with 2. Most players are not so concerned with giving the enemy a bonus +1 def. I don't think any opponent is going to think twice of moving 2 figures to engage with the hops of one defeating one of the bladesmen.

I think that this ability adds a nice flavor to them that is consistent with the theme of the figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 1907414)
I like EAGLE'S CRY alright, but it feels like it would be cleaner if it were modeled more after the Axegrinders' Strategic Bonding, something like:
Before taking a turn with the Nastralund Bladesmen, you may take a turn with one Valiant Warrior you control. If you do not take a turn with one Valiant Warrior you control, you may move one additional Nastralund Bladesmen during their turn.

I think this makes most sense, the Bonding before a hero moves made more sense when it was with Eltahale. It does not make much sense anymore to have the figures go first, and then a hero.

Changing the with probability of the dice, such as with JANDAR'S FAVOR, increases your average while decreasing your variance. You are right that 4 dice with that ability is different from 6 dice since you have a lower possible cap, but rolling 5 or 6 shields is already pretty unlikely and even more so on when it would actually matter. On average, you will get about the same results out of 4 defense dice with that ability and 6 defense dice without it. They'll survive more often than not against attacks of up to 4 attack dice, where they'll die about half the time against an attack of 4 dice. It's obviously not exactly the same, but it is a useful tool to try to quickly understand about what these numbers reflect and roughly translate to.

I agree that a defense bonus of 1 while doubly engaged is not much of a deterrent, but nothing is stopping you from playing with that number some more. What if it were a defense bonus of 2 or even 3? The numbers aren't necessarily right, but it can suddenly become a calculation between whether to get more attacks with more squad figures or denying the defensive bonus.

I understand the theme behind the ability and I do think that sounds quite cool. It may work just fine as is for all I know, though I do like the notion of them being better defensively when surrounded as well. You could even link Jandar's Oath to that, but that may prove to weaken them too much against range and single engagements. Something worth mulling over, at least.

IshMEL January 28th, 2014 06:03 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
A suggestion on a thematic defense bonus:

For each Valiant figure you control within 2 clear sight spaces of this Bladesman, this Bladesman may re-roll one defense die once.

Needs wordsmithing but it would get across the Valiant idea and work with the first power.

Ixe January 29th, 2014 10:01 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IshMEL (Post 1907841)
A suggestion on a thematic defense bonus:

For each Valiant figure you control within 2 clear sight spaces of this Bladesman, this Bladesman may re-roll one defense die once.

Needs wordsmithing but it would get across the Valiant idea and work with the first power.

I'm not sure if I agree with this one. While it would be a nice boost, the thing that I found most appealing about the Bladesmen is how they took the inherent weakness of being only a two figure squad and gained a bonus from that. I am worried that an ability that increases their defense for the more of them (or other figures) present will run counter to this sub-theme.

MegaSilver January 29th, 2014 02:53 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Based on the Sandworms from Dune, he's a fellow for your viewing pleasure:

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/...ps234336f6.jpg

Scytale January 29th, 2014 03:01 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Devour feels clunky to me. Or really, the combination of powers does: you need to know Underground Movement to understand Devour, and you need to know Disengage to understand Underground Movement. As a package it works, but I can't help but think there's got to be a smoother way to do it.

Does the mini fit on a single base?

MegaSilver January 29th, 2014 03:06 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 1908038)
Devour feels clunky to me. Or really, the combination of powers does: you need to know Underground Movement to understand Devour, and you need to know Disengage to understand Underground Movement. As a package it works, but I can't help but think there's got to be a smoother way to do it.

Does the mini fit on a single base?

The Mini fits easily on a single base: in fact, it stands very well on it's own.

Dok helped me with the wording of Devour. He stated that if you already know how Underground Movement works, then the other two are easier to understand. He suggested against combining the powers.

Of course, if someone comes up with a simpler wording that works, I'm up for it.

Evar-Scarcarver January 29th, 2014 03:11 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
I agree with Scytale, the way his powers read is bit clunky. (The only reason I understood it first time is because I scrolled up from the bottom of the page, and ended up reading them in reverse order) I love the concept though! I can totally imagine this guy bursting out of the ground and devouring people!

What if you mixed together a couple of the powers? Personally, I don't think this guy should be able to disengage if he's not using Underground movement. Ending the ability with "Ashi-Dhulu is never attacked when leaving an engagement with Underground Movement." might clean up the card a bit, and work better thematically.

kevindola January 29th, 2014 03:24 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
As Evar suggested: Get rid of disengage and add the disengage text to the end of UM.

Change Devour to:
Instead of moving and attacking normally, Ashi-Shulu may Devour. Choose a small or medium common figure on a non-water space within 4 spaces of Ashi-Shulu that is no higher than one level above Ashi-Shulu’s height. Destroy that figure and place Ashi-Shulu on that space. Ashi-Shulu does not taking any leaving engagement attacks when using Devour.

MegaSilver January 29th, 2014 03:26 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Evar-Scarcarver (Post 1908043)
I agree with Scytale, the way his powers read is bit clunky. (The only reason I understood it first time is because I scrolled up from the bottom of the page, and ended up reading them in reverse order) I love the concept though! I can totally imagine this guy bursting out of the ground and devouring people!

What if you mixed together a couple of the powers? Personally, I don't think this guy should be able to disengage if he's not using Underground movement. Ending the ability with "Ashi-Dhulu is never attacked when leaving an engagement with Underground Movement." might clean up the card a bit, and work better thematically.

The original version of Underground Movement did not allow Disengage, so adding that to the end of it would confuse people even more.

...

What if the powers were put in reverse order? Evar understood how it worked better because he read it in reverse order.

dok January 29th, 2014 03:49 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kevindola (Post 1908045)
As Evar suggested: Get rid of disengage and add the disengage text to the end of UM.

Change Devour to:
Instead of moving and attacking normally, Ashi-Shulu may Devour. Choose a small or medium common figure on a non-water space within 4 spaces of Ashi-Shulu that is no higher than one level above Ashi-Shulu’s height. Destroy that figure and place Ashi-Shulu on that space. Ashi-Shulu does not taking any leaving engagement attacks when using Devour.

As Mega says, Underground Movement on Earth Elementals does allow leaving engagement attacks. It would be quite confusing if UM read verbatim except that you don't take Leaving Engagement Attacks. There's really no precedent for identically-named powers being different, and when they differ in a somewhat subtle way like that it's even worse.

Given that that's a nonstarter, unless you want either:
  1. Devour to only work when unengaged, a-la Wolves of Badru (huge nerf to the figure),
  2. Complex language on resolving leaving engagement attacks before destroying the figure (not a good road to go down, and also a significant nerf), or
  3. Devour to give disengage when non-devouring UM does not (theme break IMO),
You need him to have Disengage as a standalone power. And really, what's the problem with Disengage as a standalone power?

Also, although this is a minor point, that language above would allow devouring onto a glyph, which the current language does not. Assuming you keep Disengage as a standalone power, if you want equivalence to the current power, you need:
Instead of moving and attacking normally, Ashi-Shulu may Devour. Choose a small or medium common figure on a non-water space that does not contain a glyph within 4 spaces of Ashi-Shulu that is no higher than one level above Ashi-Shulu’s height or three levels below his base. Destroy that figure and place Ashi-Shulu on that space.
... but then you end up with really similar language in the first two powers, which seems weird in its own way. Personally, I like the current language for the reason I suggested it to Mega: i.e. that I only need to read one power. I already know how UM and Disengage work. Each power piggybacks on the ones that follow.

That said, you could probably replace the current "before moving" and "may not attack" wording with the Kumiko/Augamo "instead of moving and attacking normally" line, as you suggest, leaving:
DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a small or medium Common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end Underground Movement if the figure were not there. Destroy the chosen figure and immediately place Ashi-Dhulu on that space using Underground Movement.
I think I like that more, actually.


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