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-   -   The Pre-SoV Workshop (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=47761)

Kinseth May 9th, 2015 11:23 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
What happens if they have height and common attack +1 glyph, 12 attack dice?

Special Attacks are always defined, you should completely spell out the special attack with its attack dice(As Dysole suggested).

Sir Dendrik May 9th, 2015 11:33 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill (Post 2020293)
Are you proposing to list some kind of COMBINED SPECIAL ATTACK power on the hero that the hero doesn't actually have? That seems like more of a bending of precedent to me. An entire special power on a unit that is not used by that unit but mentally cut and posted onto another card seems actually more complicated to me.

Well, what you are seeing is how complicated the power actually is when it's worded in a way that works in Heroscape. It's an elucidation of why people have been so resistant to this whole time: Because it's doing something that's kind of awkward on paper.

Quote:

Help me understand what you mean here. She is coordinating their fire, and calling in the shot. If AGENT COORDINATION doesn't mean she is COORDINATING what the AGENTS are doing, then I'm not sure what it would mean. (FWIW, I originally called it COORDINATED FIRE but I thought that was too generic a label for this effect. I didn't want to "steal" that power name from some other future unit that might create a new SP with that name that could be used on multiple cards.) I'm totally open to rewording ... I just want to understand why the current theme is not as obvious as I thought it was.
I'm anticipating that you're going to have to change the power in order for it to gel well into the game, by granting a special attack, etc. At that point Coordination is a little lacking, but I guess I'm just splitting hairs.

Quote:

Honest question ... do you think she will be able to sit in the start zone and the opponent won't be able to place his figures to make it so that the Agents can't target anything? If that's a likely scenario, then I need to add a distance component.
She doesn't have to sit in the start zone--she can move to a distant advantageous position every turn. I think this would be fairly common practice when using her, rather than having her move up and not attack, then die.

Just_a_Bill May 10th, 2015 12:27 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2020294)
Morgoloth's card grants those figures disengage but the card instead spells out what the power does instead of saying "They have disengage". ... I think if you don't have a clearly defined Special Attack, then you do not follow the theme as presented by other cards granting figures abilities they did not previously have.

You seem to be saying that I'm using the words "special attack" without including all the rules for special attacks that all the other cards have. If there is an example of another card that has a special attack that spells out all the rules for special attacks on the card, I've not been able to find it.

This is only making me more confused about where your objection really comes from. Disengage and Special Attack are not even remotely equivalent. DISENGAGE is a power title, which must explain all of its own rules on every card. The rulebook doesn't tell us a single thing about it. SPECIAL ATTACK is a basic game function that has all of its core rules explained in the rulebook. There is no special power called SPECIAL ATTACK.

The analogy doesn't apply. I know you don't intend this, but it really gives me the feeling that people are hunting for ways to prove that an inline creation of a special attack is horribly confusing and somehow wrong compared to all the other inline constructions on other cards, and violates some sacrosanct principle somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2020295)
What happens if they have height and common attack +1 glyph, 12 attack dice?

Of course not. Special attacks never receive attack bonuses. Good grief, it's easy to manufacture problems if we ignore the rulebook and common sense. I can do it all day, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Dendrik (Post 2020296)
Well, what you are seeing is how complicated the power actually is when it's worded in a way that works in Heroscape.

:Sigh: Okay, you guys win ... I call uncle. This little card is not worth trying to fight an uphill logic battle on like five fronts. Some good points have been made here, and I appreciate that, but I don't see a productive path forward. And really, the coup de grāce was Soundwarp's unchallenged assessment that it just doesn't seem fun (which is the bottom line), so I'm ready to cut my losses and get back to the other cards being discussed.

Thanks to everyone who participated.

Kinseth May 10th, 2015 12:36 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill (Post 2020299)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2020295)
What happens if they have height and common attack +1 glyph, 12 attack dice?

Of course not. Special attacks never receive attack bonuses. Good grief, it's easy to manufacture problems if we ignore the rulebook and common sense. I can do it all day, too.

I had an honest question so I could understand the power better, to better make a suggestion. I wasn't out to get you. The power is poorly worded to the point that I wasn't sure, and wanted your intentions.

Your response was just rude, and I am sorry I bothered even asking.

Just_a_Bill May 10th, 2015 01:04 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2020301)
I had an honest question so I could understand the power better, to better make a suggestion. I wasn't out to get you. The power is poorly worded to the point that I wasn't sure, and wanted your intentions.

Your response was just rude, and I am sorry I bothered even asking.

My apologies ... I thought your question was rhetorical, and I interpreted it to have an edge that you did not intend. That was stupid on my part. I should have asked for clarification, or just responded factually without the frustrated tone. I should not have been trying to respond to so many different people at once, and I should not have let myself get to the point of feeling dogpiled on. That's my fault, and I regret making you sorry you asked. One of the things I hate most in life is when I get smacked for trying to help, and it looks like that's what I did to you. I am very sorry about that.

It's nobody's fault but my own that I didn't write a text that made sense to the group, and nobody's fault but my own that I wrote an unkind reply. (Shouldn't even have a middle-of-the-night logic debate.) I am sorry.

IshMEL May 10th, 2015 01:08 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Another way around the design issue would be to give her a Treasure Glyph:

Microcorp Scanner ?
At the beginning of the game, place the Glyph of Microcorp Scanner in this card. The glyph cannot be removed from this card unless Agent B is destroyed.

Then the Glyph:
After an Agent with this glyph takes a turn, if etc.... During that turn, those Agents may use Coordinated Fire Special Attack.

Then spell out the SA the way you want it to work. I don't know if the solution is SOV-worthy but it would get around what is the main objection here, I think?

capsocrates May 11th, 2015 09:14 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
:headshake:

IshMEL May 11th, 2015 09:25 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Well OK then... Perhaps not!

capsocrates May 11th, 2015 09:32 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IshMEL (Post 2020449)
Well OK then... Perhaps not!

That wasn't directed at you specifically.

IshMEL May 11th, 2015 09:44 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 2020450)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IshMEL (Post 2020449)
Well OK then... Perhaps not!

That wasn't directed at you specifically.

No worries, I thought you were just answering my "would this be an SOV-worthy solution" question.

Scytale May 11th, 2015 12:30 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Complication for complication's sake is not a good thing. Perhaps never a good thing. What is it you are trying to accomplish by giving another card a special attack? There is almost certainly a simpler, more elegant way.

Giving a power to a card is a line that Fanscape has crossed with a T-glyph, but at least that is limited to a single unique figure. At the very least, the power you are granting must be clearly spelled out similar to what Dysole suggested.

I doubt I would vote Yea for such a unit. It would take a lot to convince me a power with such potential for problems is worth it.

Son of Arathorn May 12th, 2015 08:09 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2020499)
I doubt I would vote Yea for such a unit. It would take a lot to convince me a power with such potential for problems is worth it.

That goes for both of us.


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