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Subtypes, Shmubtypes, or 'Why Are You Being So Ornery?'

Posted January 28th, 2009 at 06:00 AM by hippogog
Updated January 28th, 2009 at 11:00 PM by hippogog
If you take a look at my custom figures (Hippogog's Customs Thread), you'll see that I don't use the Personality trait, and that I refer to the Species and Class traits, collectively, as Subtypes. Some members have wondered why I take this alternate, non-official approach, and so this article is an attempt to explain the reasoning behind it.

Keywords, Nothing More

From a game mechanics perspective, the Personality, Species, and Class traits are simply keywords that ability text may reference. This is the sum total of their significance. They have no intrinsic value, and in the absence of abilities, they would not be important at all.

If, however, in a rule-book somewhere there were a rule stating "Figures with a Tricky Personality have Phantom Walk" or "Orc Warriors have Orc Champion Bonding" then this lack of intrinsic significance would not be the case. As far as I know, no such rules exist.

Okay, So They're Just Keywords; But Isn't Personality Different From Species And Class?

Yes and no. You may have noticed that the official game treats Personality differently from Species and Class, in the way it references them in ability text. For example, Otonashi's Attack the Wild ability reads:

"When attacking a figure who has a wild personality, Otonashi rolls 2 additional attack dice."

In contrast, Tornak's Orc Warrior Enhancement ability reads:

"All friendly Orc Warriors adjacent to Tornak receive an additional attack die and an additional defense die."

In this comparison you can see that the Personality designation (Tricky) is referenced as such, while the Species and Class designations (Orc and Warrior, respectively) are not. Mechanically this is different, but it is of no consequence since the various Personality designations are personalities exclusively. In other words, there are no personalities that are also species or classes, and so when a personality is referenced, there is no need to specify that it is a Personality. In our example with Attack the Wild, the following text would be sufficient:

"When attacking a Wild figure, Otonashi rolls 2 additional attack dice."

As a result, we can see that a figure is "Wild" in the same way it is "an Orc" or "a Warrior." The text "Wild figure" translates to "a figure with a Wild Personality" in the same way that "an Orc figure" translates to "a figure with Species Orc." The point I'm trying to make here is that the three traits are essentially the same, mechanically, even though ability text references them differently.

In addition, since a Species or Class designation is referenced without specifying it as a Species or Class, we can deduce that it's not important whether a particular designation is a Species or a Class. For example, a figure with Species Beast would be considered "a Beast" in the same way that a figure with Class Beast would also be considered "a Beast" (it doesn't matter that Beast is a Class and not a Species - even if it were in both categories, the distinction would not matter). This is important, because it points out that the distinction between Species and Class has no mechanical significance.

So They're All The Same And They're Just Keywords - What Of It?

If you agree that the three traits are essentially the same, mechanically, then you must also agree that deeming a particular word a Personality, Species, or Class, is arbitrary, from a rules perspective. It's arbitrary because the rules don't care whether the word is considered a Personality, Species, or Class. The word "works" the same way, no matter what it is called. This means that the only difference between these traits is in their flavor. I don't have a problem with flavor itself (in fact, I rather like artwork and flavor text), but I do have a problem when flavor interferes with mechanics. In my mind, the distinction made between Personality, Species, and Class is an interference of this sort.

For example, a new player might ask, "What is the difference between Species and Class?" The answer - nothing. The player might then ask, "Then why is it in the game?" The answer - flavor. Is this acceptable? In my mind, the answer is no, since it creates confusion (i.e. the confusion is not worth the enhancement brought by the flavor).

If there is no rules significance to the distinction between Species, Class, and Personality, then in my mind the distinction shouldn't exist. This doesn't mean the game can't have concepts that one would associate with Species or Class (like Human or Soldier), it just means that labeling a particular value as a Species or a Class, when there is no rules-based reason to do so, seems to be in error.

Okay, Okay. So They're All Just 'Subtypes' - Why Not Keep Personality?

This decision is more a matter of taste. I'd much rather have a Mutant Cyborg Warrior than a Terrifying Mutant Cyborg or a Terrifying Mutant Warrior. In my mind, the Terrifying doesn't bring as much to the table as the Warrior or Cyborg. Instead, it sort of muddies the water, and takes up space where something more meaningful could be. I'd rather have a very specific and potent 3 word Species/Class designation, than dilute the figure's description with a Personality. If I want for a figure to be seen as Relentless or Precise, I will simply reflect these qualities in the figure's abilities.

In addition, choosing a Personality for a custom figure can be arbitrary in a way that selecting a Species or Class is not. Many times a Species or Class will jump right out at you, while the Personality could be anything. And even when you have an idea of what kind of Personality you are going for, you can get bogged down when you have to choose between "Terrifying" and "Ferocious."

A Possible Objection

In the official approach, there is a list of Personalities, Species, and Classes, and each figure gets one value from each list. It's possible that the official designers see this as a balancing mechanism, since a figure will be able to benefit only from the abilities that reference its particular Personality, Species, or Class, and no others. Since my scheme allows for multiple Species or Class designations, this will not be the case with my approach. For example, suppose I created the following custom figure:

Name: Grut Elite
Allegiance: Utgar
Subtypes: Orc Archer Warrior
Type: Common Hero

As both an Orc Archer and an Orc Warrior, this figure would benefit from both the Orc Archer Enhancement (Swog Rider) and Orc Warrior Enhancement (Tornak or Grimnak) abilities. Is this the sort of thing the official designers were trying to avoid when they wrote the rules? I don't think so. Consider that Swog Rider is a common figure (meaning that you can play with multiples), and that two of them would each grant their bonus to a squad of Arrow Gruts, for a double-bonus identical to the one in my figure's case. Similarly, Tornak and Grimnak would each grant their bonus to a squad of Blade Gruts, again for a double-bonus.

The point is, I don't see the current scheme as motivated by balance concerns, or even a means to prevent these type of concerns (as my example illustrates, even the current scheme doesn't prevent double bonuses and the like, for single Species, single Class figures). This could have been offered as a not-so-obvious counter-argument, however, so I wanted to at least chime in on it.

Why You Bein' A Flava-Hata?!

Some players might say that the flavor benefit of having the Personality, Species, and Class traits is worth the extra complication, and I can understand that. I would simply disagree, and that would be that. As I stated, I am a fan of the flavor aspects. I love artwork and figure sculpts as well as flavor text and biographies. From a game design perspective, however, I simply don't like the Personality trait, or the distinction made between Species and Class.

Thanks very much for reading. I hope this article has been informative and educational, and has provided at least some justification for my particular approach. You may not agree with me, but I hope you can at least see where I'm coming from.


Thanks!

-hippogog
Total Comments 9

Comments

Old
Jexik's Avatar
I agree with the 'possible objection' part. I think making Krug a Relentless Beast, and not a Warlord Beast was intentional. I also think they didn't want figures to do be able to bond with completely different groups. So far, pure bonding always has a Class component. Allowing a figure to have two classes would disrupt this balance. (The same thing could be said for species, general, and so on). Why not have split personalities? Why not have two movement values? Attacks?

The last few they actually don't have too much of a problem with, if you look at Sgt. Drake or the Monks two methods of movement. There are also tons of special attacks.
Posted January 28th, 2009 at 11:01 AM by Jexik Jexik is offline
Old
hippogog's Avatar

The Bonding Issue...

With regard to the movement values, attack values, and so on, I don't see those as part of the discussion, since those are simply numbers and not keywords. And as you state, abilities allow for multiple types of movement and various types of attacks as it is.

With regard to the bonding issue, consider that, even in the current scheme, a figure with only 1 Species and 1 Class designation can still bond with multiple squads, since more than one squad can have that same bonding ability (e.g. Alastair Macdirk bonding with both Knights of Weston and Macdirk Warriors, via Human Champion Bonding). In my mind, this is no different from say, a Troll Beast Darklord (1 Species and 2 Classes) bonding with both Arrow Gruts (via Beast Bonding) and Wolves of Badru (via Darklord Bonding).

-hippogog
Posted January 28th, 2009 at 08:23 PM by hippogog hippogog is offline
Updated January 28th, 2009 at 10:14 PM by hippogog
Old
Jexik's Avatar
But what if it goes the other way, to synergy benefits received? If a figure were both a Soldier and a Scout, it could have +3 movement with Marcus and Venoc Warlord. I'm not sure if spending 220 points for 3 extra movement would necessarily be imbalanced, but I doubt it was intended.

Also, I find it interesting that you bring up mechanics for your 3 subtype idea, when most of the subtypes you uses (with the exception of Beast) currently have no mechanical meaning in the game. There is no synergy with being a Construct, a Mutant, or a Cyborg, or even a Warrior despite that one being on a lot of cards. I think it was interesting that the designers chose to make Major Q10 Merciful- that was a stark contrast to the rest of the soulborgs and hints at a backstory.

Perhaps the best objection was brought up by Necroblade. There are already cards that use all of their distinctions, including personality, like Parmenio. As an Einar Warlord, he can bond with the Sacred Band or the Romans. Since he's Disciplined (and can make other figures disciplined) he helps out the Sacred Band's army defense bonus. As a Unique Hero and a Medium Human, he's liable to all sorts of special abilities and powers.

Lastly, there's Brunak. Here's a clear case where they could have tried to have two species designations. Is he a Troll, or is he a Manticore? Eh, screw it, Trolticor. And we all got a new word.
Posted January 28th, 2009 at 09:08 PM by Jexik Jexik is offline
Old
hippogog's Avatar

Benefits Received...

Quote:
But what if it goes the other way, to synergy benefits received? If a figure were both a Soldier and a Scout, it could have +3 movement with Marcus and Venoc Warlord. I'm not sure if spending 220 points for 3 extra movement would necessarily be imbalanced, but I doubt it was intended.
I see what you're saying here, and I'm sure there are other scenarios where the multiple-species, multiple-class approach will result in a sort of double-bonus not currently possible in the game. My argument is that this may not necessarily result in a balance issue, and that concerns of this sort are not what motivated the official designers to limit these traits to one designation each. In other words, I see the possible balancing benefit of the official approach as incidental, not as a motivating or deciding factor.

Quote:
Also, I find it interesting that you bring up mechanics for your 3 subtype idea, when most of the subtypes you uses (with the exception of Beast) currently have no mechanical meaning in the game. There is no synergy with being a Construct, a Mutant, or a Cyborg, or even a Warrior despite that one being on a lot of cards.
I do use several subtypes that currently aren't in the game, but I don't see a problem with this. A keyword doesn't have to be significant from its inception. It's introduction simply means that it is now "available to be referenced." In other words, mechanical significance is not a prerequisite for a keyword's existence.

Many Species and Classes already in the game have no mechanical significance currently, and additions like Mutant and Cyborg will be no different. New abilities can always be created later that reference these keywords, thus giving them mechanical significance. Until then, they serve simply as flavorful descriptors (with the potential to become mechanically significant).

Quote:
I think it was interesting that the designers chose to make Major Q10 Merciful- that was a stark contrast to the rest of the soulborgs and hints at a backstory.
The selection of a Merciful Personality for Major Q9 is peculiar, and definitely gives rise to a potentially interesting back-story. I don't see this as a counter-argument to my post, however. If you're saying that this sort of flavor benefit is worth keeping the Personality trait, then I see where you're coming from there. Like I said above, however, I would simply disagree.

Quote:
Perhaps the best objection was brought up by Necroblade. There are already cards that use all of their distinctions, including personality, like Parmenio. As an Einar Warlord, he can bond with the Sacred Band or the Romans. Since he's Disciplined (and can make other figures disciplined) he helps out the Sacred Band's army defense bonus. As a Unique Hero and a Medium Human, he's liable to all sorts of special abilities and powers.
I see this more as an observation than an objection. Sure the game includes abilities that reference the Personality trait. This is to be expected. It doesn't, however, follow that the Personality trait is worth using in my own customs, simply because it is being used in the official game.

Quote:
Lastly, there's Brunak. Here's a clear case where they could have tried to have two species designations. Is he a Troll, or is he a Manticore? Eh, screw it, Trolticor. And we all got a new word.
Again, I don't see this as a counter-argument to my modified approach. As with Q9, this seems to be a flavor-based argument in support of the current system. While I like the flavor of the new word Trolticor, in my mind the creation of a new word like this is a mistake (more on this in another blog post).

As always, thanks for the comments!

-hippogog
Posted January 28th, 2009 at 10:14 PM by hippogog hippogog is offline
Updated January 28th, 2009 at 11:08 PM by hippogog
Old
R˙chean's Avatar
I've read and I've read again. Then I went back and read it yet again. My only question is: AND?????

It is like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. All this wonderful dialogue and structure, banter and discussion, yet for the life of me I can not ascertain the end goal. What is the point?

Is this an effort to bring about change? If so, then of course that is a waste of time and effort.

Is it to argue why something, in your opinion, isn't right and why your way is better? If so, then I fail to see any value in such an exercise.

<continues to scratch head>
Posted January 28th, 2009 at 10:19 PM by R˙chean R˙chean is offline
Old
hippogog's Avatar

Merely An Explanation...

Quote:
I've read and I've read again. Then I went back and read it yet again. My only question is: AND?????

It is like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. All this wonderful dialogue and structure, banter and discussion, yet for the life of me I can not ascertain the end goal. What is the point?

Is this an effort to bring about change? If so, then of course that is a waste of time and effort.

Is it to argue why something, in your opinion, isn't right and why your way is better? If so, then I fail to see any value in such an exercise.

<continues to scratch head>
Thanks for the comment.

If you check out my customs thread, you'll see that some members have wondered why I take an alternate approach in my treatment of the Personality, Species, and Class traits in the design of my custom figures. The blog post is an attempt to explain the reasoning behind my alternate approach, nothing more. The comments I've made in the back-and-forth discussion with Jexik are simply responses to his various objections to the alternate approach.

Hope this helps clarify things.

-hippogog

P.S. I read your Hextreme New Year blog post. Sounds like it was a fun trip!

P.P.S. I realize now that some of you will have gotten to this blog post without having seen the comments made by others in my customs thread. I'll edit the original post so that it's clear the post is a response to concerns brought up in that other thread. Thanks for the heads-up on this R˙chean.
Posted January 28th, 2009 at 10:39 PM by hippogog hippogog is offline
Updated January 28th, 2009 at 11:32 PM by hippogog
Old
In actuality by changing the left side of the card you made it so people whould have to buy more of your customs on eBay (which was the purpose of you posting your customs in the first place here till everyone got on you for that.) in order for them to be usable to the full potential as they were created.

Not trying to cause a flame war or anything I just am stating the obvious.
Posted January 29th, 2009 at 11:58 AM by Onacara Onacara is offline
Old
hippogog's Avatar

Not Obvious, And Not True...

Quote:
In actuality by changing the left side of the card you made it so people whould have to buy more of your customs on eBay (which was the purpose of you posting your customs in the first place here till everyone got on you for that.) in order for them to be usable to the full potential as they were created.

Not trying to cause a flame war or anything I just am stating the obvious.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that my customs will be incompatible with the official game, and that a person would have to be playing with only my customs in order to use them?

If this is what you're saying, I disagree completely. The changes I've made don't make my customs incompatible with the official game at all. My figures simply lack a Personality designation, and can have more than one Species or Class designation. This doesn't create any issues with the core rules, as far as I'm aware.

I'm a designer first and an eBay seller second (and in fact, no longer an eBay seller of custom Heroscape figures). None of the design decisions I made with these customs were motivated by a desire to sell them. I make the figures for the joy of making them, and part of the joy is in making them the best figures they can be. I feel that my alternate approach helps me accomplish this.

In short, I went with this new approach for the sake of simplicity and clarity, and so I could make the customs I wanted to make. eBay has nothing to do with it. I hope you can see this.

Thanks,

-hippogog
Posted January 29th, 2009 at 07:27 PM by hippogog hippogog is offline
Updated January 29th, 2009 at 08:56 PM by hippogog
Old
The B.I.V.'s Avatar
Sounds like someone has a case of the MUN-DAYZ!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik
I think it was interesting that the designers chose to make Major Q10 Merciful- that was a stark contrast to the rest of the soulborgs and hints at a backstory.
The backstory was actually explained in one of the videos on heroscape.com. Q10 tells Sgt. Drake that he was scheduled to be dismantled on Alpha Prime because he was malfunctional (because he refused to kill an unarmed foe)...

Brandon
Posted January 15th, 2010 at 05:14 PM by The B.I.V. The B.I.V. is offline
 
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