Writing Without Stabilisers.

I understand Ollie's rant and actually agree to some extent but my spell checker is my newest editor.

My dictionary has been lost for many years but my thesaurus (which is as old as a dinosaur but not the same as one) is very well worn.

At Megasilver, I understand that during the revolution American's chose Santa Clause over Father Christmas and all that kind of thing, so why not speak dutch? I think you'll find that it's more of a dialect issue. I was just poking fun at it. But...
I often wonder if any North American knows the correct spelling of donut.

The earliest known recorded usage of the term dates to an 1808 short story describing a spread of "fire-cakes and dough-nuts." Washington Irving's reference to "doughnuts" in 1809 in his History of New York is more commonly cited as the first written recording of the term. Irving described "balls of sweetened dough, fried in hog's fat, and called doughnuts, or olykoeks."

Olykoeks meaning "oily cakes" for those unversed in 19th century Dutch dialect.

My charge is not laziness; it's that you are missing out. It makes me happy that several of you use dictionaries as well. That's perhaps the reasonable middle ground to hope for.

A Heroscape analogy is always appropriate. The efficiency argument sounds to me eerily similar to the argument "I use Q9/Raelin/Rats in every game because that gets the job done with little fuss." Much as there is plenty of pleasure to be had playing that army, if that's all you do I'd say you were missing out.

I believe this holds even in a time-sensitive work environment, though in a slightly different way. There, you turn off your spelling checker to save time. With a little practice (which is not painful for the same reason that it's not painful practising doing well with the elf wizards in Heroscape) I believe that you can turn out more effective functional messages in the same time. You'll make more spelling errors possibly, because you're no longer happily following trails though dictionaries or using the spelling checker, but the time saved not fixing the odd stray spelling can be instead used to make sure that your sentence structures and word choices most clearly convey your message (or add a bit of extra information, or a funny aside, or to use a nice word you came across in the dictionary the other day when you were writing with time to spare). I'd rather read a well-written short message with a spelling error than perfectly spelt inelegant management-speak.

In other news, real-life is perhaps telling me that I take this stuff too seriously. Over the last week we've broken two cars. We currently have a courtesy car while the cheaper fix is done, and so for the next day or two I'm driving a car that I would refuse to buy on language considerations alone. It's a "partial zero emissions vehicle". Aargh. That makes no sense. And is ugly. And makes no sense.

Usually I can get over my dissatisfaction with branding and advertising and just buy the product that is the better purchase given my needs. However, leaving aside for the moment that this car is out of my price range by an order of magnitude, I genuinely don't think I could bring myself to buy one. Does this make me weird? Or weirder than you otherwise thought I was at any rate.

Ollie, I think you have a good point about wanting everyone to spell better and write more clearly. HOWEVER, I think you have to draw the line somewhere. You have to realize that people are here to discuss HeroScape, not necessarily discuss it with perfect grammar and spelling. If they are completely garbled and no one can understand them, that's one thing. But we are talking about spelling errors in understandable posts.
Now, I'm sure you aren't about to neg rep anyone for this (At least I hope you aren't ).
I completely disagree with this. It is how you write, and you are welcome to write that way if you so wish. HOWEVER, unless you are English - which I'm not sure if you are or not because I forgot to check - this is - no offense - . I let the face say it all.
That aside, I still think a PM is far more polite and explanatory than neg rep with a link. Back in the days when I was a new user, and didn't know too much about this site in general, I got some neg rep. I promptly panicked.
Now, I'm not saying this will be the universal reaction of all users. More experienced ones will notice it and keep on going. However, new users, and even people like me in extreme cases, will not be too happy when they receive neg rep for what they might consider a dumb reason.
Not to say that this is a dumb reason for neg repping people. I just don't think it is the best, that's all. I think better reasons could be implemented than grammar mistakes.
Back to what I was saying, if a fairly inexperienced user sees neg rep for what they might consider a dumb reason, it could turn them off.
A few friends of mine, in posting what they thought was a pretty good army, got caught up in a debate over a completely different topic. There was a lot of banter, and the end result was that they left the site, probably never to return unless I can talk them into it. Guess what? they got a lot of neg rep, and for some pretty dumb reasons, too. Namely, not agreeing with the general 'scaper opinion. Dumb reason, isn't it?
This is what I am saying: neg rep can turn people off. Even if the user in question has been around a long time, a dumb enough reason can go a long way. Once again, this is not a dumb reason, I was speaking in generalities there.
So, what am I saying? I'm saying two things. First, I do not think this is reason enough to neg rep people. Note the emphasis. I think you have a point, but I don't think it can be used as an excuse for neg rep.
Second, I'm saying be careful in what you do and evaluate the impact of what you do. One simple action can do quite a lot. I understand your reasoning behind neg repping for this cause, but a friendly PM can easily encourage users while pointing out their mistakes, while neg rep can easily discourage them. It comes down to this: Do we want to discourage our members? No. We want new members.
If we believe something needs correcting, what better way to show that we are serious than by helping our members? What will the impact be if, instead of neg rep, the user receives a kind PM pointing out the mistakes, telling them your viewpoint, and showing them how they can correct and do better? Do you think, perhaps, that the user will be appreciative of all the time you have spent helping them to contribute to the site? Sure, some may overlook it, but most probably won't. The point is that a PM of that kind shows how much time you are willing to spend in an effort to correct this. To me, that would say that the author of the PM wants to help me out, and is ready to spend the time to do so. What does neg rep say? To me, it says that the repper thinks that my post was bad, not that he wants to help me correct it.
So, do you believe in this cause to the point that you are willing to help people write the way YOU want them to? If that is the case, great! Most people would just leave some neg rep and be done with it, probably not really caring if the person improves or not. You are obviously an exception. You clearly wish for people to improve. The question is, will you act on that wish?
We want to encourage people to come to the site. You want them to use proper grammar and spelling. Why not combine these, and produce a friendly PM?
Thoughts?
~TGRF.
P.S. I am sure that there are typos in the above text. I need a spellchecker because of my typos. In short, I still need the training wheels. The spell checker, for some reason, does not pick all of my typos up. So, if you see a typo, please don't be offended. In fact, you could even send me a PM about it if you want me to fix it.

Thanks for the thoughtful (and nicely typed ) comment, The Grim Reaper's Friend.

There's some stuff in there with which I agree, but let's cover the stuff with which I disagree or is just plain wrong first:

You seem concerned about new users. Don't be. As I've said more than once in the "rampage" thread, I do not neg rep new users for this reason. The only posts I'll be negrepping for writing issues are those by people who have been here sufficiently long that they know (or should know) that getting worked up about neg rep is stupid. Which leads to the second, and perhaps most important, point...

Neg rep says "I don't like this post" not "I don't like you". If I'm sending the neg rep then it's a subjective call on my part. It's up to the recipient of a neg rep how to interpret it. The correct, in my opinion, response is to evaluate the post that was negrepped, decide whether it is something that they're happy to have posted in that way, adjust attitude and practices accordingly (or not), and then move on.

Smaller point: you say that there are more important issues which should garner neg rep. I agree completely. Nowhere did I say I'd only be negrepping for writing issues. I'll continue to give neg rep to homophobic posts, for example, even if their grammar and spelling are perfect.

Smaller point still: yes, I'm English. There was a rule of thumb commonly cited when I joined the site that you should write your posts as your 5th grade teacher taught you to write. That is, there is no compulsion to worry too much about style (which is why I spun the stabiliser post into a separate thread from the rampage one---one is about how you should spell better; the other is about how spelling is not the most important piece of writing). If you want to negrep for style, that's fine (It's also fine to negrep those who don't use American English if you find that detrimental to your experience on the board). I don't use mine for issues like this (though writing in red font or talking like a pirate, to take two completely arbitrary examples, is probably enough to rule out ever getting a pos rep for that post, or for that matter to rule out me reading it usually) but you should if you want to.

In short (as if I ever write anything "in short"): neg rep indicates dissatisfaction with a post. I'll continue to use it to express such. You should too, and I think the more people that use neg rep the quicker the imaginary stigma associated with it will dissipate. Stopping imagining that stigma will make you a happier, more productive poster. And yes, I'm willing to help anyone to the extent that I can with their writing. PM me. If a neg rep starts that conversation, that's a good thing.

And in case the extent of my "rampage" is concerning you, since making that blog post I've issued, I'd guess, half a dozen neg reps for it. As discussed in this thread and the other one, an occasional typo or spelling error is fine and I'll only be negrepping posts that reach the level of not showing (what I consider to be) sufficient respect to the reader.

Happy posting.

Edit: "neg rep" or "negrep"? Verb or noun?

More polite? Sure, depending on how you think about neg rep.

More explanatory? That depends entirely on the content of the negrep/link/PMs in question. ollie's link is more than explanatory enough.

However, there are other considerations that are worth having. One obvious one is, which is more effective? Like it or not, negrep is very effective a lot of the time, particularly when given to relatively new (but not completely new) users. It's a feedback system, and feedback systems (as I argued earlier in this very blog post, when talking about spelling) are very effective teaching tools.

I've heard a few claims that people have gotten negrep for this reason, but I am very skeptical. I could believe that they got negrep for being dismissive of general opinion while writing unproductive posts with poor grammar and spelling, but simple disagreement, particularly when backed up with any kind of rational argument, pretty much never gets you negrep.

I got in a long-winded argument with a bunch of highly respected veterans on the site pretty much right after joining. I got several posreps on that thread, and not a single negrep. Disagreement doesn't get you negrep unless it's accompanied by poor writing or other obnoxiousness.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'll do this point by point, going through both of your replies.
First, Ollie, you say don't be concerned about new users. Looking back on my comment, I realize I really came off that way. What I was trying to say is that neg rep can have an effect, that's all.
Second, you also say that neg rep sends the message that the post in question is bad, not the user. While I agree completely with this - provided that the following comment on the neg rep doesn't say somethign like, "you are stupid" - it may be that not everyoen realizes that. They might not have read the rep thread by admin what's-his-name. (Pardon the phrase, Ollie.)
Third, I'm not saying this is the only reason you will be neg repping people. I'm just saying that I simply don't think that this point is really worth a neg rep rampage. Sure, typos and misspellings can be annoying, but I wouldn't go as far as neg repping them. That's all. Ironically, I misspelled 'misspellings'.
The only thing I have to say on the smaller point still is that I can't neg rep. That's right! You are safe! (Just kidding.)
I'm glad to hear that you are willing to help anyone. A neg repper that is willing to improve the site is alwasy welcome.

Now, on to Dok.
When I said more polite and more explanatory, I meant more polite in the sense that a kind word is better than neg rep, and more explanatory in the sense that a PM can contain where you went wrong and how to improve it, whereas a neg rep, even with the link, does not. It simply explains why you got the neg rep, not where the mistake was, or how to fix it.
Ah. An excellent point, Dok. I, of all people, should know how often PMs are ignored. I've waited to hear from Bunjee on becoming a contributor for about a year and a half now. Way more than half the people I PMed for a rating on some fan fiction haven't written back. Yes, people do ignore PMs. I think a good title can help with this, but that si beside the point. I ahd never considered neg rep being more effective, which it probably is. Good point.
About the dumb neg rep, well, I was talking to them today, and it seems that they got a bad combo of abnormally rude members and diverse opinions. It wasn't pretty.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts!
~TGRF.
P.S. I think I got everything spelled right in there...

I think you're misunderstanding the type of posts I'm negrepping under the banner of this "rampage", The Grim Reaper's Friend.

I'm not negrepping posts that could be entirely fixed with a cheery "everyone is spelt with the n before the last e" (or "something is spelt s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g", or "have is spelt h-a-v-e", or "is is spelt i-s", or.... have you taken my advice and turned the spelling checker off?!).

I'm negrepping posts where I believe the author has not shown sufficient care and attention. That is, I think the author would, for the most part, be able to fix the post him/herself but he/she wasn't sufficiently bothered to do so the first time. Specific corrections are not useful in these cases.

I'm going to recklessly read between the lines and decide that you're actually worried about receiving negrep yourself. Leaving aside that you shouldn't be in any case, assuming you are happy with the way you post, you don't have to worry about catching every typo to avoid negrep from me. Proofread your posts; give them a bit of love; "spell check" them if you must and you won't be hearing from me.

... Well, you see, the strange thing is, I do proofread my posts... every time. It takes me longer to post because of it, and I still miss a ton of stuff. Obviously, I'm being extra careful on this blog given the topic, but I proofread every single one of my posts, regardless of where it is. And with all that... I still heard from you, which is why I am here.
Thank you for that clarification though, about its not being the spelling so much as the carelessness. This changes things. I agree that careless posting is deserving of neg rep. Not a whole lot, but one dock ought to do it. However, in my case, for example, one might be paying a lot of attention to their posts. In the end, I suppose you can't really tell. Since one dock only takes away a few points, it isn't enough to really hurt if the person is proofreading their posts, but at the same time, it is enough to catch the attention of those that aren't.
One last thing before I leave you to your reppign adventures, I am not posting because I am scared of getting neg rep. I am posting because I believed, at the time of posting, that I had a point that I needed to show you, for the good of the community, and I made that point. That is why I posted what I did.

I now consider your cause to be valid and worthy. Neg rep away. Just remember that some (like me!) may pay very close attention to what they say.
~TGRF.
P.S. Something you might implement in determining whether or not something is a typo is to look for the same misspellings elsewhere.

EDIT: All three times I've posted here, you are offline when I start and online when I finish. Weird.

I'm a fairly good speller, proofread my things as I go, read through the dictionary for fun, and rarely use the spell check function until I've finished what I want to write. That said I find the autospell correct jigger in Firefox to come in handy when I've misspelled a word and am in a hurry. Oh and I don't know if this is what you meant when you said style editor but here. http://iwl.me/

Dysole, that is not what I meant. It's way cooler than that. Thanks for sharing! I put in this blog post. Not what I expected!

The Grim Reaper's Friend, glad to know my surveillance team are earning their keep (and you really should stop visiting those sites).

I've changed my mind. I hate that site Dysole. I put in the introduction from one of my published math papers and this happened.

My 2010 Gencon report
My 2011 Gencon report

I can live with those.

Thank you! I have been wondering where that thing was. And what did you mean, Ollie? You completely lost me on your reply. What site?