A Neg Rep Rampage

you are all serious? A website based upon a game for ages 8+ and your going to treat it like it's some prestigious club for those that can only type perfectly? I haven't felt so punctually policed since the third grade, nevermind the fact that i have two boys 10- that like this site and post under supervision ocasionally, god forbid they have a typo, we might get a neg rep!
We have enough stress in our lifes without having to worry about being reprimanded for bad spelling in a place we come to to relax and enjoy our hobby.

Why? Is ollie's negrep as much of a blow to you as getting marked down in third grade was?

If you think he's so misguided, then why are you worrying about it?

Forgive me for resurrecting this blog. Not being able to create them, I don't even know if this will be seen or not, but I thought I'd ask.
Looking back on the neg rep you gave me, Ollie, it's actually rather funny. Back then, I was known far and wide in the fan art and fiction forum as a grammar maniac. If anything, I am known as more of one now. Therefore, getting neg rep of all things for bad grammar was, well, funny (Though not at the time).
I am posting this, however, because I feel that my thoughts on this were never resolved. You always seemed quite reasonable when talking about this topic, so I hope you will see this as a useful point of view, not a useless bump to the blog.
Looking back on this, I can see where you were coming from. I can also see that my posts were a little hot-headed (likely because receiving neg rep for bad grammar was the last thing I was expecting). I still hold to my previous opinion that you should send out PMs if you care about good grammar so much, and as far as I know, you still stick with neg rep. Those are our opinions. It is obvious neither of us is about to change them.
However, I have recently been thinking about this blog post, and have had a rather disturbing thought occur to me.
Some users (I know of one for sure, likely more) simply do not know good grammar. Sure, some do, and yes, some simply use 'text shorthand,' but there are those out there that literally have hardly any idea about correct grammar.
Now picture for a moment you giving them neg rep because of their horrendous posts. What are they supposed to do? Fix their grammar? How? This is yet another reason why I believe PMs are more in order than neg rep.
If I wanted to go on a campaign to fix the grammar on this site, I would talk to the people making the mistakes until they knew what they were doing wrong, and knew how to fix it. Then, if they still persist in using bad grammar for no reason, it may be time for neg rep.
So I ask you, are you still on this crusade for good grammar? And if so, how do you justify - for lack of a better word - neg repping the type of individual I described above?
~TGRF.

I think the point a lot of people miss is that getting a negrep is not the end of the world. In fact, I'd say that people do not give negrep enough. If someone makes a post that you negatively affects your experience on the site you can negrep them for it. It doesn't matter whether they mean to do something or do it without noticing.

Say I'm a parent and someone makes a post with some questionable language that I don't want my kids to see. I'm well within my rights to throw down a negrep, even if I'm the only person on the planet who finds that language rude.

Yes, I think you are completely correct. We're I in that position, I would likely do the same thing. And I also think neg rep is loathed far more than it's worth. I know that's the case with me.
So sure, getting neg rep isn't the end of the world. However, my question still stands. How can you 'justify' giving an 'ignorant' person neg rep when it is going to do nothing whatsoever to improve their posts?
It comes down to what you are trying to say with the neg rep. Are you trying to help the site by showing them how to make their posts better? Or are you telling them that their posts are bad, without offering any explanation of how to fix them?
For example, take the unnamed user I mentioned above. His grammar is terrible. Terrible. When I see his posts, I have two options, supposing I am a site supporter.
1. I can neg rep him for detracting from the quality of the site.
2. I can PM him and show him his mistakes, and show him how to fix them.
Think about it. Which one of these two methods is more likely to improve the site? And isn't improving the site what this entire blog is really about? Isn't that the entire point of this crusade? What, then, is the neg rep really doing?
~TGRF.

Let it go TGRF.

No one likes to get neg-rep but it is going to happen if you are on this site long enough for one reason or another no matter how unjustifiable you may think it is.
Neg-rep does not have to be justified, that is simply the way it is. If you read ollie's posts and try to get to know him through those posts I think you will understand who he is and that he has only the best intentions, always.

Having just gone through a similar situation on a different subject, my best advice is to just let it go. I wish I had. I am trying to be better.

Thanks for your words, Tornado. However, this is not a question about neg rep. The question is whether neg rep is the way to go with this particular issue.
I think Ollie is serious about wanting to change the standards around here, I'm sure he has the best intentions, and I'm behind him all the way. I just disagree with his methods. I have yet to see anything that shows how neg rep will improve things better than a PM. If you're truly serious about fixing something, you show how it's done. You don't simply tell the person they're doing it wrong.
Once again, this is not a question about neg rep, grammar, or Ollie's motives. It is a question of methods.
I believe the entire neg rep system is flawed, but that's not why I posted. I posted here because I still believe Ollie's methods on this subject are unjustified. I would like to fix them, or understand how they are justified.
I feel something needs to be done here. Maybe I'm completely off my rocker, or maybe I'm the wrong person to bring this up, but I will only let this go when it is resolved.

Well met!

I, too, have felt the pain of neg rep - there is someone on this site who, after a time of relatively consistent hits, still occasionally reminds me of his existence with a hit, all in reference to his displeasure with my salutation! I was outraged, wrote and ranted, was slapped down by the administrators, etc.

My feelings about it were all out of proportion, it's unlikely that anyone with significant clout in the Community would be so petty, and I'm pretty sure that my inevitable progress towards Godly Rep has not been unduly hindered.

It's not worth the disturbance to your wa.

How about neg rep and a PM? Even if you thought a neg rep was unfair you can't tell me it didn't at least make you consider how you were posting.

Well met!

There is also Reporting. From where I sit, if a post is truly egregious, Report it, and send a PM if you think it will help. If a post is merely annoying, then an instructive PM should be sufficient. What is a Neg Rep, beyond a PM, other than an anonymous punitive act.

In re-reading LordRaidor's Stickied introduction to Rep, the types of offenses he lists are mostly the kind that, if continued, would get you reprimanded or banned by the Admins. Bad intent or the infliction of emotional distress seems to be the intended target of Neg Rep, as opposed to personal annoyance at bad grammar, current txtng shorthand, or a person's $&@#ing salutation!

Addressing dok's earlier comment, a lot of the recipients of Neg Rep are kids, and most of the rest are kids at heart, and are less able to shrug off pedantic or unjust criticism. Also, in my own case, due to the anonymous nature of Neg Rep, it took me a minute to realize that the Neg Rep I was receiving came from one crackpot, rather than several respected members of the Community. [OK - it's possible that it came from one respected member of the Community.]

Anyways, I've never seen an example of Neg Rep doing anything that a PM and/or Admin intervention couldn't accomplish better. Any positive Neg Rep stories out there?

I posted in a thread, got neg repped, got really angry but realized my post was bad, and thus tried to scale back my posting where it wasn't needed. Neg rep worked exactly as it should.

I'm not saying neg rep is bad. I could get really... out of hand when I first came to this site, and neg rep walloped me into shape more than once. Neg rep has it's uses. I believe people as a whole may use it for more than it is intended, just as they do pos rep, but that's an aside.
I believe your suggestion, greygnarl, is an excellent one. Indeed, I suggested something similar above. Send them a PM telling them what to do. If they persist, neg rep away.
And yes, greygnarl, neg rep does get one's attention. But using it to get one's attention may not be the right course. It's purpose is, as I understand it, to penalize those that detract from the site. But it invariably causes a degree of anger, especially if given anonymously. That is why I would suggest using a PM first. It doesn't have the attention-grabbing power of neg rep, but it is a lot kinder and a lot more explanatory and helpful. Neg rep simply says, "You're doing it wrong. Stop."

Once again, I'm seeing a lot of attention put on the neg rep. That is not the question at hand. The question is, to me at least, what will be better at fixing grammar on this site: neg rep or a PM? I have expressed my opinion. I am going to PM Ollie and see if I can get his.

~TGRF.

P.S. I can see where someone might find your greeting annoying, kolakoski. You say 'well met!' on every post. This can get old. You might consider just saying it in PMs. Or, occasionally, say it in a thread, but only when you actually meet someone for the first time. No harm there.

I can see your point, TGRF. It makes more sense to help someone understand what they're doing wrong than to simply tell them they suck. But I also know Ollie is a great guy, and I've gamed with him on more than one occasion. I consider him a friend.

I appreciate your comment, Taeblewalker. It is important to note that I'm not going against Ollie here, just his methods. Like I said earlier, I'm sure he has only the best intentions, and genuinely wants to fix the standards. It is merely his methods that I question. Thank you for reminding me and any other viewers of that, TW.