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Zelrig and small maps

Posted May 6th, 2009 at 07:16 PM by dok
This is just a slight edit of a reply I just made in a map comment thread, archived here for easy reference.

On several occasions when critiquing maps, I've criticized maps where Zelrig can hit more than a couple hexes of the opposing start zone in his first activation with a Majestic Fires attack. I feel that on an ideal map, there should either there should be 13 hexes of separation between start zones, or there shouldn't be a possible landing space for Zelrig in the first turn where he can hit the opposing startzone, or at least, the startzones should be configured such that no more than a few hexes can be hit with one Majestic Fires attack.

I've had this discussion a few times on the board, to the point that people who follow those thread might think I'm more strident about this issue than I really am. I feel pretty strongly about this, but at the same time I don't think it's actually that big of a deal, if that makes sense.

The common counter-argument is that Zelrig costs 185 points because he can frag commons quickly, and this effect is part of that. The central problem with this "it's built in to his cost" argument is that a first-turn, initiative-winning Zelrig bomb has a drastically different effect than a Zelrig attack in any other situation, and I really don't believe that specific effect was built into his cost.

If Zelrig takes two turns to reach the opposing start zone, then even an opponent who loses initiative has a turn to scramble and spread some pieces out, or to move to deny good Zelrig perch locations, or even to engage Zelrig. Similarly, on maps without sufficient separation, a player who wins initiative has a chance to spread out if they are concerned about a Zelrig strike.

It's only when you are on a small map and you lose initiative that you are stuck getting hit with a full Zelrig strike before you have a chance to react. And that is potentially devastating.

Is Zelrig designed to counter massed commons, and is that power built into his cost? Yes, absolutely.

Is Zelrig designed to have an especially devastating effect on massed commons on maps that have relatively little separation, when Zelrig wins initiative, and is that power built into his cost? That seems like a hard sell to me. If that were really the case, then it would seem to me that a corollary would be that he's a bit underpowered on maps where he doesn't have a 50% chance of pulling this off. His impact is so different in this case that I can't believe this was the situation he was designed for.

As a side argument, Zelrig vs. commons on a tiny map places an enormous amount of importance in the first initiative roll. I don't like that additional element of chance.

Again, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. It only matters if the opponent is common-heavy and loses initiative, and even then Zelrig could end up throwing blanks on Majestic Fires. And at the end of the day, Zelrig does cost 185 points, and it's not a disaster if he occasionally dominates a game, even if I don't feel dominating the game this way is an ideal outcome. My point is that I definitely feel that a Zelrig number greater than three is a flaw, albeit a small one. It doesn't make a map bad, but it's a point against it in my mind.
Total Comments 20

Comments

Old
Jexik's Avatar
I've played 3 games at tournaments on Fire Isles with Zelrig involved, and the guy using Zelrig lost every one of those games. (I was that guy one time).

The one thing I kind of like about the Zelrig bomb is that on most maps, most of the time, you want to lose initiative the first round, and win it the second round. He kind of messes with that ideal. The only other situation where I don't think that is true is where both players are playing very similar armies and they're racing to glyphs with rats and they don't have a special attack...
Posted May 6th, 2009 at 08:03 PM by Jexik Jexik is offline
Old
Cleon's Avatar
One thing that I do like about playing against Zelrig is although he's devastating, I think he helps your units move out. On smaller maps like Fire Isles he flies over with all order markers on him ready to burn away. In response, you place your order markers looking to quickly advance, possibly reach height, and take him down before he kills 185pt.+ of your army. If you successfully take him down before he destroys you 185pt.+ (a little more doesn't hurt you too too bad) of your army and within the first round, I look at it as an advantage. Now, it's most likely the beginning of the next round, you already have units spread out, probably a good some on height, and closer to glyphs than the opponent's figures are. Meanwhile, your opponent is starting the round clumped up as if they haven't started yet and looking at units that have already covered ground and have taken a position. This works better with an army of lots of solid common squad figures, like the 4th Mass, and also keep in mind you're going for defeating Zelrig within the first round and losing less than 185pt. or so before he goes down.
Posted May 6th, 2009 at 09:02 PM by Cleon Cleon is offline
Old
ollie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok
The common counter-argument is that Zelrig costs 185 points because he can frag commons quickly, and this effect is part of that. The central problem with this "it's built in to his cost" argument is that a first-turn, initiative-winning Zelrig bomb has a drastically different effect than a Zelrig attack in any other situation, and I really don't believe that specific effect was built into his cost.
I still think that the specific effect is fairly costed, particularly in tournaments where it's unlikely that all maps will allow this possibility. Without the option for that initial devastation I don't think he's worth anything like 185pts (compare him to Nilfheim).

I've tried using him as clean-up a few times (he's a ranged flyer after all) but 185pts is obviously too much in that role alone.

Even an total success of seven kills on the first turn is not usually game-winning, becuase the units hit are usually cheap commons.

That said, I like larger startzone separation too because it encourages more strategic play. Zelrig isn't the reason for me.
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 07:09 AM by ollie ollie is offline
Old
Aldin's Avatar
*shrug*

The Airborne Elite can achieve a similar effect for 2/3 the price. As is, I almost never see Zelrig at tourneys. Would it really be broken to allow him the chance to devestate the 4th or Glad/Blasts?

The more I think about it, the other side of the question is, "is it fair to only have map designs that allow Zelrig's opponent to essentially guarantee negating his special attack?"
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 09:18 AM by Aldin Aldin is offline
Old
Jexik's Avatar
I'd say, "no" to that Aldin. If 1 in 4 maps in a tournament pool allow a potential Zelrig bomb on the first turn, it'll still only work if all of the following occur:

A) Your opponent is fielding mostly commons.
B) He doesn't have Raelin.
C) You win initiative.
D) You get at least one, but probably at least two skulls on Majestic Fires.

Considering how many tourney maps there are (BoV and otherwise) that allow a rat player to get all of the glyphs on the second turn if they win initiative, I think Zelrig is pretty reasonable even on small maps.

Back to what I said earlier, and Cleon reiterated. Even when that does happen, your opponent will likely get a good counterattack in because they'll still have all three of their turns left. If Zelrig dies in the opening round, the Zelrig player still would lose a bit of board position, even if he killed 200 points worth of stuff.
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 09:55 AM by Jexik Jexik is offline
Old
dok's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin
The more I think about it, the other side of the question is, "is it fair to only have map designs that allow Zelrig's opponent to essentially guarantee negating his special attack?"
To say that is to imply that Zelrig's only value is to hit unmoved figures in the start zone. I don't think that's remotely true, nor do I think that you think that, for that matter, so this argument leaves me unmoved.

I'm ranging a bit into theoryscape here, but to me, a lot of Zelrig's value can be captured not by what he kills before he dies, but by how much he restricts what your opponent can do. If your opponent is playing any common army that relies on adjacency, or any common army that tends to swarm around opposing figures, Just having Zelrig on the board with an unrevealed OM can restrict what moves they make in a 13 hex radius. If Zelrig forces your opponent to avoid massing at strategic points, and if your opponent ends up attacking Zelrig on height while your other troops move around free, that's a lot of value gained, even if he doesn't "kill his points".

Jexik, how many of those hurdles were cleared in the Zelrig-on-Fire-Isles games you saw? Were any of Zelrig's opponents 21+ hex common armies?

At any rate, I'm going to make an effort to not point out the close start zones every time I see them on a new map, unless they're extremely close (say, 10 hexes or less with a clear path) or if the mapmaker erroneously claims that the map is "Zelrig-proof" when it isn't. My feelings are fairly well known, and given that I don't feel it's a map-breaker by itself, there's really no point in being a curmudgeon about it.
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 11:09 AM by dok dok is offline
Old
But dok...Zelrig not being able to have a shot at it greatly reduces his point value based on his regular attack/defense/life factors...and as Jexik pointed out it's not a given that he will kill anyone.
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 11:51 AM by Onacara Onacara is offline
Old
dok's Avatar
Ona, are you implying that Zelrig is weak and not worth his point investment on maps like Mole Hills, Marr Highway, Highways and Dieways, Broken Skyline, Hot Heights, and the dozens and dozens of other tournament maps where Zelrig can't hit the opposing start zone on turn 1?

If that's the case, then why does spider_poison call him an A- unit?

I reject the idea that Zelrig needs the threat of the first-turn bomb in order to be an effective tournament figure. As others have pointed out, the first turn bomb is not always effective anyway, and I've argued how he can be useful without being used in an early rush.
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 12:07 PM by dok dok is offline
Old
It doesn't need to be on turn 1..it could be on turn 2..but once turn 3 happens he is not as effective of scary as he was before. In tournament play he is going to reach the start zone by his second marker and can still cause as much damage as he could on his first against an opponent utilizing all of their start zone spaces.
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 01:03 PM by Onacara Onacara is offline
Old
dok's Avatar
Well, Marr Highway is probably the only common tournament map where Zelrig can't hit the opposing start zone in turn 2. So it sounds like we're in agreement on his value on maps with the most common amounts of start zone separation (say, between 14 and 18 hexes).

That one guaranteed turn of maneuver can make a big difference for a lot of armies. Armies with bonding can selectively move 5-8 figures and generally reduce the maximum exposure. Or, if you're using fast commons, you can move four figures up six hexes in various directions, so that most of Zelrig's landing spots would leave him engaged with a single figure.
Posted May 7th, 2009 at 02:15 PM by dok dok is offline
Old
R˙chean's Avatar
I am of the opinion that even if every map in a tournament allowed for the Z bomb to hit on turn one, that a Zelrig lead army still would not win that event.

Zelrig is a game changer but he really doesn't dominate they way many people fear. In my experience, his bark is worse than his bite

He makes a player think twice about fielding mass commons, but he doesn't make the leap from there to being a dominant tournament figure, even if all the maps catered to his power.
Posted May 8th, 2009 at 11:15 AM by R˙chean R˙chean is offline
Old
kolakoski's Avatar
Well met!

I agree with Dok about small maps. I'd go further and say that any map so small that any combat can occur before turn 3 in the first round should be rejected from consideration when there are so many fine maps available that avoid the issues that Dok raises.

I also agree with Dok about Zelrig's value and usefullness in general. I would gladly take the following army to tournament:

185 Zelrig
120 Krug
120 Raelin v2
60 Izumi
10 Isamu
495

David
Posted May 11th, 2009 at 10:26 AM by kolakoski kolakoski is offline
Updated May 11th, 2009 at 10:39 AM by kolakoski
Old
dok's Avatar
I'm a bit too much of a squad-addict to go with the army you suggest there, kolakoski. But I might consider Zelrig, Raelin, Stingersx3, Isamu.

R˙chean, you may be right that a Zelrig army will have a hard time winning a tournament, simply because there are armies against which Majestic Fires is not really useful. The 7-hex, all-unique 470 point Vydar pod is probably the most obvious example. That said, a Zelrig-based army in an all-Z-bomb map pool is likely to ruin the day for a lot of common squad armies that lose initiative. Again, I don't feel this effect is necessary in order for Zelrig to be a strong figure.
Posted May 11th, 2009 at 10:54 AM by dok dok is offline
Old
Jexik's Avatar
I'm with R˙chean, although I think that it's possible for Zelrig-led army to win a tournament. He just needs to be backed up by good hero-killers.

I came very close to winning a tournament with Zelrig in my army (I went 4-1). The only map I lost on was Fire Isles, when I won the first turn's initiative. I killed 7 Knights of Weston and got 3 wounds on Thorgrim in my first two turns, and guess what? I lost the game.

BATTLE REPORT

I really think the whole Zelrig-bomb problem is imagined to be a lot worse than it is. I'm pretty sure that spider's ranking assumes that there will be some 'Zelrig-friendly' maps in a tournament pool, because many 1-MS maps are small.

I won't even consider bringing Zelrig to a tournament unless at least half of the maps are small enough for a potential first turn bomb and I expect to see lots of commons based on that area's metagame.
Posted May 11th, 2009 at 10:56 AM by Jexik Jexik is offline
Updated May 11th, 2009 at 11:22 AM by Jexik
Old
LongHeroscaper's Avatar
I have raised my voice about this matter before, but here it goes again. Well, it is basically what Jexik, R˙chean and other said. Let Zelrig be Zelrig. The fact that a map is small and Zelrig can hit the starting zone the first round does not automatically make it unbalanced to play the dragon.
I think what you said "a Zelrig-based army in an all-Z-bomb map pool is likely to ruin the day for a lot of common squad armies that lose initiative" captures the source of the different point of view. I think Zelrig is a cure for commonScape, you think Zelrig is a disease for commonScape.
Posted May 11th, 2009 at 11:56 AM by LongHeroscaper LongHeroscaper is offline
 
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