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Just my random musings about Heroscape...
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Deadeye Dan Vs. Sudema

Posted July 30th, 2009 at 12:03 PM by Elginb
This is an example of two figures whose price disparity makes no sense to me. Both are niche figures, both filling very similar niches, but one costs 60 points while the other costs 140 points; one fits nicely into lots of armies without being overpowering, while the other is very difficult to fit into an army without seeming ineffective.

Now, I know that on first glance, it might seem like Sudema is more powerful than Deadeye Dan. Sudema has one more life and one more defense than DED. More importantly, she has twice the chance of destroying a hero (D20 roll of 17+) as DED (D20 roll of 19+), and Sudema has a 2/3 chance of killing squaddies, whereas DED only has a 50% chance of killing (small or medium) squaddies (but also to wound small or medium heroes).

Now, even though Sudema's raw stats are better than DED's, Sudema has to expose herself to engagement much more so than DED, in order to utilize her full niche potential-- that means that she can be bogged down by multiple low-cost squaddies and taken out by long range units fairly easily, or even multiple attacks from melee units. DED, by contrast, can sit comfortably behind a melee screen and pick off targets from afar, only fearing ranged units that make it past his meat shield (or, perhaps, Laglor-enhanced ranged units).

My estimation is that Sudema's statistical superiority is pretty much offset by her relative vulnerability-- she has a higher probability of succeeding with her specials, but will have fewer chances to activate them. I really see Sudema as just the melee version of DED, so it really befuddles me as to why she costs more than twice the points of DED.

I don't know that I would price her at 60 points-- her ability to move and attack* does help in a pinch-- but 80 point seems about right... I think people would still choose Raelin over her most of the time.

*yes, I know DED can move and attack, but not with his specials, and not very effectively.
Total Comments 11

Comments

Old
Shades fan's Avatar
I once took out a full life Silver Surfer with Deadeye, so he's alright in my book. My opponent was sure pissed though!
Posted July 30th, 2009 at 05:36 PM by Shades fan Shades fan is offline
Old
Darth Vader's Avatar
If Sudema were 80 points she would find her way into more of my armies. She can be devastating if lucky, but 140 is just too much to spend. I really see how these two units are similar, and it is really strange how their prices can be so different.
Posted August 5th, 2009 at 12:01 PM by Darth Vader Darth Vader is offline
Old
Hey-- my first blog entry and it got linked to on the front page. I mean, it was a slow blogging week, but still, that's kind of cool...
Posted August 5th, 2009 at 01:12 PM by Elginb Elginb is offline
Old
Killz's Avatar
My brother loves Sudema, I on the other hand love DED. But I think that Sudema is worth 140, I mean she has Braxas's noxtious breath, and she has killed a lot of my heroes.
Posted August 5th, 2009 at 02:28 PM by Killz Killz is offline
Old
I just have to say that after using DED to kill Krug, Mimring, and about 6 squaddies(2,000 point Facesbash[as I call] game) before recieving even 1 wound...he is pretty darn good in my book. Sudema, on the other hand, has never even wounded a character when I have used her.
Deadeye Dan rules!
Posted August 5th, 2009 at 03:57 PM by RhinoBarbarian RhinoBarbarian is offline
Old
scorpiusx's Avatar
Nice read!

A couple of advantages that Sudema has over the sniper:

-If she is engaged, she can still use her special.
-She can move around and use her special in the same turn.

Therefore, there is some stress pulled off of positioning for her. But still, I believe that she could be toned down 30-40 points (even though she does have a big "cool" factor in my book.)

-scorp
Posted August 5th, 2009 at 10:16 PM by scorpiusx scorpiusx is offline
Old
Samurai's Avatar
Quote:
But I think that Sudema is worth 140, I mean she has Braxas's noxtious breath, and she has killed a lot of my heroes.
not exactly, Braxas has the ability to fry three targets per marker, whereas Sudema can only fry one per marker. I agree with scorpiusx that Sudema should be toned down around 20-30 points to maker cost effictve. Verry cool but DED finds his way into more of my armies.
Posted August 9th, 2009 at 05:30 PM by Samurai Samurai is offline
Old
Braxas can attack 3x as much as Sudema, she has twice as much life, she can fly, and has better move and attack than Sudema.

The only drawback to Braxas is that she's a big target (though, being HUGE does give her immunities to other things). Sudema's only advantage over Braxas is that she can affect Large or Huge figures with her power.

I think Braxas is priced just about right for what she does, and I think that she should cost at least twice as much as Sudema, as she is at least twice as effective as Sudema. So, Sudema certainly shouldn't cost more than 105 points.

I think Sudema is closer to a third as effective as Braxas, so I'd still price her around 80 pts. Assuming Raelin is an outlier, I still think Sudema is about as effective as Saylind, Kelda, Thorgrim or Finn at 80 points, though in a much different way.
Posted August 12th, 2009 at 01:21 PM by Elginb Elginb is offline
Old
Blaze's Avatar
i agree, sudema's cost should be lowered.
Srsly, 140 points?
Posted August 18th, 2009 at 11:03 PM by Blaze Blaze is offline
Old
The B.I.V.'s Avatar
I was just thinking about this disparity the other day. The only explanation that I can come up with is that the creators were extremely cautious with her.

Put it in a historical perspective. She was the first real auto-killer (besides Chompy, but his power requires adjacency) and, as such, had the potential to be game-breaking. So the creators probably were a lot more conservative in her price than they otherwise would have been. Later figs like DED (and now Atlaga) have been priced lower, now that these effects have not proven to be game-breakers. In short: game developers make mistakes too.

Brandon
Posted December 2nd, 2009 at 01:59 PM by The B.I.V. The B.I.V. is offline
Old
Xn F M's Avatar
I think you're right on the money Brandon. And I think that begs the question: now that we know Sudema is overpriced, when will she get a support unit?

Maybe we'll get lucky with the DnD scape and get a necromancer or an evil cleric with some undead synergy.
Posted December 2nd, 2009 at 02:15 PM by Xn F M Xn F M is offline
 
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