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flameslayer93
May 12th, 2020, 08:54 AM
The Book of Durnipia

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019169485422592/image0.jpg?width=458&height=610

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Durnipia
EINAR
Rusalka
Unique Hero
Nymph
Inscrutable
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 80

Powers

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.


HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.

The figure used for this unit is Kiora, the Rising Tide from Arena of the Planeswalkers Battle for Zendikar.

Bio




Frequently Asked Questions:
Q: When Durnipia's Carried By Waves and Re-Tak-Shi's Swamp Ooze affect the same land spaces, what do they become?
A: Swamp Ooze turns the spaces into Swamp Water.
Q: When Durnipia's Carried By Waves affects a land space, can I place Shadow Tiles on that space with Mika Connour's Shadow Dance?
A: No, because Carried By Waves makes that space a non-land space.




https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019169485422592/image0.jpg?width=458&height=610

Owlman
May 12th, 2020, 09:55 AM
Initial thoughts:

https://i.postimg.cc/HnQ6VyBY/Kiora.jpg

flameslayer93
May 12th, 2020, 10:26 AM
There is definitely room for some water interaction powers on kiora. I know folks were also having fun with the idea of her being Durnipia (sp?), aka the character who gave Valguard his Lizard Arm and presumably Einar's Healer in Chief.

I personally want a healer in this set, and either Kiora, Avacyn, or Nissa look like they could play the part. We certainly only need 1 healer in the set, and we don't have to create a unit who's only trick is the capacity to heal (Kelda is already a thing, and she FLIES). Kiora's mini could give us water powers + healing. Or something else altogether, I'm not too picky as long it makes sense for the unit and MS.

Owlman
May 12th, 2020, 11:41 AM
There is definitely room for some water interaction powers on kiora. I know folks were also having fun with the idea of her being Durnipia (sp?), aka the character who gave Valguard his Lizard Arm and presumably Einar's Healer in Chief.

I personally want a healer in this set, and either Kiora, Avacyn, or Nissa look like they could play the part. We certainly only need 1 healer in the set, and we don't have to create a unit who's only trick is the capacity to heal (Kelda is already a thing, and she FLIES). Kiora's mini could give us water powers + healing. Or something else altogether, I'm not too picky as long it makes sense for the unit and MS.

I'm down for a healer too, although I think Avacyn could fill that role nicely, since she is prob gonna be an elf type figure, and if anyone needs help healing its Elves, IMO since most elves have very low defense making it easy to one kill them. Any other thoughts? I'm still gonna brainstorm her today. (Also she looks more like an Aquilla folower vs an Einar follower, sculptwise. Any others agree/disagree?)

I must insist she has some type of water thing, placing water tiles is super cool! (Water teleporting is cool too, but tbh it kinda copies the water elemental which we already have now that I think of it...)

Owlman
May 12th, 2020, 11:48 AM
Or here's a thought, to run with you healing thing flameslayer:

Knock out the water teleporting thing, and instead put this in:

Healing Waters:

After moving and before attacking w/Kiora, you may choose an adjacent figure who does not follow Utgar or Valkrill. Roll the 20 sided die. On an 8 or higher, you may remove 1 wound marker from that figure's Army Card. (If that figure occupies water terrain, you may remove 2 wound markers instead.)

NecroBlade
May 12th, 2020, 09:11 PM
Avacyn is the angel statue, Nissa is the elf. Either of those could do some type of healing, but I'm behind the idea of making this Durnipia.

I like the idea of healing and/or water. Healing on a roll of X, or X-5 if she's on water, or something like that, would be a great throwback to Marro Warriors.

Captain Stupendous
May 12th, 2020, 10:19 PM
Way back in the brainstorming thread I had originally suggested having this character represent Durnipia, and I still think that would be a good design direction. You can read the official lore about Durnipia in Valguard's bio (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8588) and the 10th Regiment of Foot's bio (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19518). Here's one possible draft for that direction that Astroking and I came up with:

Durnipia
Einar
5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

FIELDS OF THE FALLEN
Whenever a small or medium figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Durnipia is destroyed, you may place a vitality marker on this card, up to a maximum of 4.

A GIFT FROM THE GRAVE
Whenever an adjacent small or medium figure receives one or more wounds, you may remove one vitality marker from this card to ignore those wounds.

I could also see a design for this figure that leans more into the water elements. I think the ideas proposed already have promise, and will throw another ability out to consider:

WATER HEALER
Einar
5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a normal land space (is there a technical name for these?), that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. (I'm pretty sure c3v had a unit in public playtesting that did this with swamp water, so we could just use the wording from that).

HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Kiora, roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a ?13? or higher, remove a wound from that figure.

Astroking112
May 12th, 2020, 10:59 PM
I quite like the idea of basing this sculpt off of Durnipia. Even if she doesn't explicitly reference the alien lizard arm transplant, it's a fun piece of lore that fits the reptilian appearance of the sculpt. Just my :2cents:.

WATER HEALER
Einar
5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a normal land space (is there a technical name for these?), that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. (I'm pretty sure c3v had a unit in public playtesting that did this with swamp water, so we could just use the wording from that).

HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Kiora, roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a ?13? or higher, remove a wound from that figure.

Mika Connour (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?&p=1149382) sets a precedent for referencing land spaces. We can look at cribbing the C3V wording when **-***-** releases (there are a couple of differences, but the unit should be releasing relatively soon, so I'll leave it at that until then).

If Kiora is converting adjacent spaces to water, then it's critical to add something to this effect to the power:
...Kiora and any friendly figures adjacent to her do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.
Because the above draft does not have Slither, it would presumably have to stop its movement after every space. Extending that movement to figures adjacent to Kiora gives her a new niche for fording rivers and prevents her from clogging up her own starting zones.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2020, 08:01 AM
I'm on the fence about terraforming here. While fake placing water spaces is a neat gimmick, does it have a good role in the MS?

One upside is this would be my favored style of terraforming (since we don't have any extra plastic hexes in the box to give away). Another is that its already likely to be a thing when the Marro Slime comes out of C3V, so there will be precedent of it outside of the Greater Ice Elemental.

A downside is that we'll have to start cribbing in things like "Slither Aura" and such, and while that isn't directly a concern, the unit might start to feel a little more bloated especially to new players.

Now, keeping in line with simplifying how does everyone feel about this:


Durnipia
Einar/Atlantean/???/???/Medium 5
5 Life 5 Move 1 Range 2 Attack 3 Defense

WATER BLESSING:
Durnipia, and figures you control that are adjacent to her, may move over water spaces without stopping.

HEALING WATERS:
After moving and before attacking with Durnipia, you may choose a wounded Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20 sided die. On a 15 or higher, remove a wound from the chosen Hero. If the chosen Hero is on a water space, add 5 to your roll. Durnipia may choose herself with Healing Waters.



We get to keep Slither Aura, and Healing Waters is fairly easy to use. Plus, anyone in the water has a much higher chance to get healed. We can naturally tweak the d20 roll or the heal amount as needed.

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 09:42 AM
Eh.....If we are gonna do a healing ability, the description needs to be more along the lines of wording that's already in Scape, IMO.

I'm against the Vitality power as worded it feels overpowered IMO, since a recharge ability could make her super annoying in bigger battles. Although the ability to block a limited number of wounds makes sense to me, like this:

"Durnipia starts the game w/3 healing markers placed on her Army Card. When an adjacent figure you control would take a wound(s), you may remove any or all healing markers from Durnipia's Army Card, and ignore 1 wound for each marker removed."

Something like that. Also this chick really strikes me as an Aquilla person sculptwise, not an Einar person. Anyone else agree?




Now, keeping in line with simplifying how does everyone feel about this:


Durnipia
Einar/Atlantean/???/???/Medium 5
5 Life 5 Move 1 Range 2 Attack 3 Defense

WATER BLESSING:
Durnipia, and figures you control that are adjacent to her, may move over water spaces without stopping.

HEALING WATERS:
After moving and before attacking with Durnipia, you may choose a wounded Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20 sided die. On a 15 or higher, remove a wound from the chosen Hero. If the chosen Hero is on a water space, add 5 to your roll. Durnipia may choose herself with Healing Waters.



We get to keep Slither Aura, and Healing Waters is fairly easy to use. Plus, anyone in the water has a much higher chance to get healed. We can naturally tweak the d20 roll or the heal amount as needed.

I'm against Water Blessing, as we have something super similiar to that via the Ice Elemental, and the Healing as currently worded feels like she's a mini Sonlen.

In order for this Healing schtick to work, I think it would be cool if the figure being healed needs to be in water terrain, going back to my water tile placing idea.

What about this piggybacking sorta' off the vitality markers thing:

Durnipia
Aquilla
3-4 life
move 5/range 1/attack 2/def. 4
points: 60-80ish range?

Healing waters:

Durnipia starts the game w/3 healing markers placed on her Army Card. Once per Round, when an adjacent figure you control who occupies Water Terrain would take any wounds, you may remove 1 healing marker from Durnipia's Army Card, and that figure ignores any wounds.

Sea is at my command:

Durnipia starts the game w/ 2 water tiles placed on her Army Card. If Durnipia ends her turn on or adjacent to an empty space, you may place a water tile from her Army Card onto the space she currently occupies or the adjacent space if the water tile fits normally onto that space.

thoughts?

Confred
May 13th, 2020, 11:10 AM
Healing and water seem interesting

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 12:12 PM
Durnipia
Aquilla
4-5 life
move 5/range 1/attack 2/def. 4
points: 60-80ish range?

Healing waters:

Durnipia starts the game w/3 healing markers placed on her Army Card. When Durnipia or an adjacent figure you control occupies Water Terrain would take any wounds, you may remove any or all healing markers from Durnipia's Army Card, and ignore 1 wound for each marker removed. (Up to a maximum of 3.)

Sea is at my command:

Durnipia starts the game w/ 2 water tiles placed on her Army Card. If Durnipia ends her turn on or adjacent to an empty space, you may place a water tile from her Army Card onto the space she currently occupies or the adjacent space if the water tile fits normally onto that space.

(My thinking here is to make her a cheap healing-one trick pony piece, instead of giving her the ability to be a primary healer, since kelda and Rhogar already fill that spot nicely.)

Zetsubo
May 13th, 2020, 03:23 PM
I'm not a huge fan of making her Einar and I don't think this is the best sculpt to make Durnipia, but that's not a choice I'm absolutely against. Healing waters is a great reference to Marro Warriors Water Clone. Carried by waves isn't too overly complex and let's us have a terrain changing ability.

Kiora
5 Life 5 Move 1 Range 3 Attack 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Kiora that are no more than 2 levels above or below Kiora's base are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS:
After moving and before attacking with Kiora, you may choose a wounded Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20 sided die. On a 15 or higher, remove a wound from the chosen Hero. If the chosen Hero is on a water space, add 5 to your roll. Kiora may choose herself with Healing Waters.

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 04:42 PM
I'm not a huge fan of making her Einar and I don't think this is the best sculpt to make Durnipia, but that's not a choice I'm absolutely against. Healing waters is a great reference to Marro Warriors Water Clone. Carried by waves isn't too overly complex and let's us have a terrain changing ability.

Kiora
5 Life 5 Move 1 Range 3 Attack 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Kiora that are no more than 2 levels above or below Kiora's base are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS:
After moving and before attacking with Kiora, you may choose a wounded Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20 sided die. On a 15 or higher, remove a wound from the chosen Hero. If the chosen Hero is on a water space, add 5 to your roll. Kiora may choose herself with Healing Waters.


I'm not a fan of carried by waves power. Just one more thing to people to remember, especially if the goal of these figures is to introduce new people to the game. Actual terrain lets people know its there, IMO.

NecroBlade
May 13th, 2020, 10:30 PM
Can't do actual terrain if there isn't any in the set, though.

Healing Waters is great, but I'm not sure it matches up with grafting lizard arms onto people. I'd love to find a way to make it make sense, though, since both the water theme and tying into the lore with Durnipia are great ideas here.

flameslayer93
May 14th, 2020, 12:35 AM
If it helps, I can see grafting a lizard arm onto someone being a time-consuming process where as direct healing would be fairly quick.

Owlman
May 14th, 2020, 05:03 PM
Did some more brainstorming.

Since we already have several primary healer types in the game, I think the healing thing could be a split focus, with the primary focus being on a water themed power (or 2)

https://i.postimg.cc/RZSSY9nq/Durnipia.jpg

Durnipia
Aquilla
4 life
move 5/range 1/attack 2/def. 4
80-90ish pts?

Mental (Mystical?) Control over the oceans
(Or: vengeful ocean/waves/something, something)

Instead of attacking, If an opposing figure occupies water terrain within (6-8??) spaces of Durnipia, you may roll the 20 sided die. On a 1-9, nothing happens. On a 10-19, give that figure 1 wound. On a 20, destroy that figure. f you successfully wounded a figure in this way, you must roll 1 attack die. If a skull is rolled, give Durnipia 1 wound.


Healing waters:

After moving and before attacking, if Durnipia or an adjacent figure you control occupies water terrain, roll the 20 sided die: On a 1-8, nothing happens. On an 9-17, remove 1 wound marker from that Army Card. On a 18-20, remove 2 wound markers instead.

Captain Stupendous
May 14th, 2020, 07:21 PM
If we do want her to be Durnipia, then I would be strongly opposed to her fighting under any general other than Einar. Within the classic lore, Durnipia is consistently associated with Einar, and for her to be with a different general would be a significant break in theme.

Another thing to consider if we go the Durnipia direction is that I would prefer if possible for her to have an ability that was able to "heal" (most likely represented by preventing damage) squad figures because of the way she is featured in the bio for the 10th Regiment of Foot (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19518). While I don't feel as strongly about this point, it would seem a little strange to me if Durnipia was unable to synergize with the 10th Regiment, despite being specifically shown doing that in their official bio.

All that being said, I'm not 100% devoted to having her be Durnipia either. While I think it would be a cool tie in, I would also be fine if we leaned more into the water-based elements of a potential design and just came up with an original name and backstory for her.

Owlman
May 14th, 2020, 08:55 PM
If we do want her to be Durnipia, then I would be strongly opposed to her fighting under any general other than Einar. Within the classic lore, Durnipia is consistently associated with Einar, and for her to be with a different general would be a significant break in theme.

Another thing to consider if we go the Durnipia direction is that I would prefer if possible for her to have an ability that was able to "heal" (most likely represented by preventing damage) squad figures because of the way she is featured in the bio for the 10th Regiment of Foot (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19518). While I don't feel as strongly about this point, it would seem a little strange to me if Durnipia was unable to synergize with the 10th Regiment, despite being specifically shown doing that in their official bio.

All that being said, I'm not 100% devoted to having her be Durnipia either. While I think it would be a cool tie in, I would also be fine if we leaned more into the water-based elements of a potential design and just came up with an original name and backstory for her.

Well, Master Woo fights for Aquilla technically, even though his monks are Ullar. I don't see how breaking theme would be too bad here. Her sculpt feels like an Aquilla type figure, and not Einar is the thing.

In her bio, we could write she had a break from Einar or something, lol!

So long as we stick with a water based design I'm cool, in all honesty tho. Not a big deal to me changing her name/bio

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2020, 06:33 PM
Another thing to consider if we go the Durnipia direction is that I would prefer if possible for her to have an ability that was able to "heal" (most likely represented by preventing damage) squad figures because of the way she is featured in the bio for the 10th Regiment of Foot (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19518). While I don't feel as strongly about this point, it would seem a little strange to me if Durnipia was unable to synergize with the 10th Regiment, despite being specifically shown doing that in their official bio.
Sounds like a Sacred Band Defy Death type power. Giving something like that to a wider variety of units, especially ranged ones, should be done carefully, though.

Well, Master Woo fights for Aquilla technically, even though his monks are Ullar. I don't see how breaking theme would be too bad here. Her sculpt feels like an Aquilla type figure, and not Einar is the thing.
I don't think Master Woo existed in anyone's bio before he was a figure, though, is the point. If she's Durnipia, she should be Einar. If she's some other type of water thing, then Aquilla or whoever.

Pumpkin_King
May 17th, 2020, 07:46 PM
Water for sure has an association with Aquilla, but the 10th reg's lore overrides that for me. I agree, if she's Durnipia, she's Einar. We need more Einar rep in the box anyway.

Owlman
May 18th, 2020, 01:26 PM
Water for sure has an association with Aquilla, but the 10th reg's lore overrides that for me. I agree, if she's Durnipia, she's Einar. We need more Einar rep in the box anyway.

While I love Einar (he's my overall fave General) I strongly think she needs a water based design. That to me is a must, in some way. I'd rather have her allegiance be Aquilla (or even Ullar over Einar) but if the entire group is set on Einar I will yield to speed up the process here.

The coral elements on her sculpt scream "Water". (Plus since most folks want to go the statue route for the rhino's, I feel the same logic needs to be applied here regrading the sculpt, then.)

Is there general consensus for her to be Einar and also a water based figure? I don't recall Durnpia's species being specified, If I'm not mistaken, so seems we can take that liberty.

Pumpkin_King
May 18th, 2020, 04:18 PM
To be clear, I'm saying what you are in your last paragraph. Einar but also a water based design.

capsocrates
May 18th, 2020, 07:11 PM
I'm not a huge fan of making her Einar and I don't think this is the best sculpt to make Durnipia, but that's not a choice I'm absolutely against. Healing waters is a great reference to Marro Warriors Water Clone. Carried by waves isn't too overly complex and let's us have a terrain changing ability.

Kiora
5 Life 5 Move 1 Range 3 Attack 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Kiora that are no more than 2 levels above or below Kiora's base are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS:
After moving and before attacking with Kiora, you may choose a wounded Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20 sided die. On a 15 or higher, remove a wound from the chosen Hero. If the chosen Hero is on a water space, add 5 to your roll. Kiora may choose herself with Healing Waters.

This is a very cool direction. I would consider going for 2 wounds, like Ana Karithon did.


P.S. Owlman, could you please just post your brainstorms as plaintext? Your cards don't show up great on my screen and it makes them harder to read (so sometimes when I see them I just skip them :oops:)

Captain Stupendous
May 18th, 2020, 09:12 PM
I'll just reiterate that I'm fine with either of the two directions currently being discussed, either:

A): An Einar character named Durnipia with a healing focus who may or may not also have some water-based abilities.

B): An Aquilla character NOT named Durnipia with a water focus who may or may not also have some healing abilities.

While I like Zetsubo's design, I think I still have a slight preference for the version I suggested earlier which is quite similar, albeit with some key differences:


WATER HEALER
Aquilla (Or Einar if named Durnipia)
5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Kiora, you may roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a ?15? or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.


I like how this version of healing waters makes her more unique as a healer by allowing her to heal multiple heroes at once, but I'd also be on board with Zetsubo's version which has the potential to more consistently heal a single hero.

Owlman
May 19th, 2020, 12:20 AM
I'm not a huge fan of making her Einar and I don't think this is the best sculpt to make Durnipia, but that's not a choice I'm absolutely against. Healing waters is a great reference to Marro Warriors Water Clone. Carried by waves isn't too overly complex and let's us have a terrain changing ability.

Kiora
5 Life 5 Move 1 Range 3 Attack 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Kiora that are no more than 2 levels above or below Kiora's base are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS:
After moving and before attacking with Kiora, you may choose a wounded Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20 sided die. On a 15 or higher, remove a wound from the chosen Hero. If the chosen Hero is on a water space, add 5 to your roll. Kiora may choose herself with Healing Waters.

This is a very cool direction. I would consider going for 2 wounds, like Ana Karithon did.


P.S. Owlman, could you please just post your brainstorms as plaintext? Your cards don't show up great on my screen and it makes them harder to read (so sometimes when I see them I just skip them :oops:)

Lol sure thing! :)

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2020, 09:37 AM
OK, so we're basically at a point where we should decide on if this should be Durnipia or a someone else.

I'd like to get everyone's preference real quick. If it's going to be Durnipia, then Einar as the general is the most sensible choice, and if not, then Aquilla is the most sensible choice. If most folks want her to be Dunipia and follow Aquilla, that's fine too.

Capt Stupendous: Either Way
PK: I think Durpinia
flameslayer: Either Way, leaning someone else
Zetsubo: someone else
@Confred (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=4571) : ???
@Amarant (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=10927) : ???
@Owlman (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=45077) : Durnipia


I also think healing for 2 would be a good dial to tune if she just isn't worth the OM but I wouldn't complain if she was ultimately a sub-100 points hero since we certainly need some of those.

Owlman
May 19th, 2020, 11:21 AM
I'm strongly in favor of a sub 100 pt figure who can heal here and there for 1-2 wounds tops, and who can also be a tie up/annoyance around water terrain for enemy units.

I'm down for her to be Durnipia.

Pumpkin_King
May 20th, 2020, 05:00 PM
That's a great draft - and yes, I'm totally good with that being Durnipia. Great way to tie it into the lore.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 12:12 AM
https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/5/7/1/nothing_363197.png

I haven't been able to get on these as rapidly as I had hoped. Here's a figure cutout of her to mark my place for reminders.

She looks best in Ullar frame I think and snazzy in Jandar, but a little late to campaign for generals. I could see merfolk in Aquilla.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 12:29 AM
I'm not a huge fan of making her Einar and I don't think this is the best sculpt to make Durnipia, but that's not a choice I'm absolutely against. Healing waters is a great reference to Marro Warriors Water Clone. Carried by waves isn't too overly complex and let's us have a terrain changing ability.

Kiora
5 Life 5 Move 1 Range 3 Attack 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Kiora that are no more than 2 levels above or below Kiora's base are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS:
After moving and before attacking with Kiora, you may choose a wounded Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20 sided die. On a 15 or higher, remove a wound from the chosen Hero. If the chosen Hero is on a water space, add 5 to your roll. Kiora may choose herself with Healing Waters.

This is a very cool direction. I would consider going for 2 wounds, like Ana Karithon did.


P.S. Owlman, could you please just post your brainstorms as plaintext? Your cards don't show up great on my screen and it makes them harder to read (so sometimes when I see them I just skip them :oops:)

My initial thoughts were
Melted Greater Ice Elemental with targeted heal on water

or Melted Greater Ice Elemental with roll heal, enhanced if on water.

So I'm glad others are converging on this design.

In defense of the water aura is the sploosh at the bottom of her base.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 12:31 AM
I'm strongly in favor of a sub 100 pt figure who can heal here and there for 1-2 wounds tops, and who can also be a tie up/annoyance around water terrain for enemy units.

I'm down for her to be Durnipia.

I'd like the the other guy, the merfolk from AotP to be that figure.

What's Durnipia?

Also, fun link:
https://cgsociety.org/c/featured/flqd/kiora

Heroscaper Guy
May 23rd, 2020, 02:15 AM
I'm strongly in favor of a sub 100 pt figure who can heal here and there for 1-2 wounds tops, and who can also be a tie up/annoyance around water terrain for enemy units.

I'm down for her to be Durnipia.

I'd like the the other guy, the merfolk from AotP to be that figure.

What's Durnipia?

Also, fun link:
https://cgsociety.org/c/featured/flqd/kiora

Mentioned in some bios, i know valguard is one.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 05:26 AM
Mentioned in some bios, i know valguard is one.

She doesn't look at all like Valguard's species.

I'd rather her be Dragonborn before that.

flameslayer93
May 23rd, 2020, 06:38 AM
Mentioned in some bios, i know valguard is one.

She doesn't look at all like Valguard's species.

I'd rather her be Dragonborn before that.

Durnipia is theoretically Einar’s healer, and she attached an alien arm to Valguard. Durnipia’s species was never clarified.

Valguard on the other hand, is 90% human 10% alien.

Owlman
May 23rd, 2020, 01:00 PM
https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/5/7/1/nothing_363197.png

I haven't been able to get on these as rapidly as I had hoped. Here's a figure cutout of her to mark my place for reminders.

She looks best in Ullar frame I think and snazzy in Jandar, but a little late to campaign for generals. I could see merfolk in Aquilla.

While she does look alot like Aquilla, after looking t her bronze colored armor, she could be Durnipia/Einar after all. Einar tends to have orange/bronze colored themes.

Confred
May 24th, 2020, 05:42 PM
While she does look alot like Aquilla, after looking t her bronze colored armor, she could be Durnipia/Einar after all. Einar tends to have orange/bronze colored themes.

What is Durnipia?

Captain Stupendous
May 24th, 2020, 07:04 PM
While she does look alot like Aquilla, after looking t her bronze colored armor, she could be Durnipia/Einar after all. Einar tends to have orange/bronze colored themes.

What is Durnipia?

Durnipia is the name of a character referenced in the official bios for Valguard (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8588) and the 10th Regiment of Foot (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19518). She is a healer associated with Einar. Other than that, little else is known about her officially.

Pumpkin_King
May 24th, 2020, 11:45 PM
We just thought, in previous brainstorming, that we wanted a healer for the box and it would be nice to tie it in with previous lore.

Amarant
May 29th, 2020, 04:29 PM
I apologize for the slow response. I did not get an email notification when I was mentioned, but I usually do.

I'm in favor of tying her into the lore as a healer.

Astroking112
June 1st, 2020, 02:55 PM
Mika Connour (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?&p=1149382) sets a precedent for referencing land spaces. We can look at cribbing the C3V wording when **-***-** releases (there are a couple of differences, but the unit should be releasing relatively soon, so I'll leave it at that until then).

Following up on this, Re-Tak-Shi (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57356) was recently released with the following power:
SWAMP OOZE
All land or water spaces within 1 space of Re-Tak-Shi that are no more than 5 levels above or below Re-Tak-Shi's base are considered swamp water spaces.
If the pod is still interested in some kind of terrain-changing ability, then something along the lines of this wording would be a good precedent to follow. It is worth noting that swamp water is also counted as water for all abilities, so Re-Tak-Shi already "helps" the Water Elementals and other units that rely on water tiles.

Pumpkin_King
June 9th, 2020, 09:46 PM
Bumping. What are we feeling here?

Confred
June 11th, 2020, 10:10 PM
Mika Connour (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?&p=1149382) sets a precedent for referencing land spaces. We can look at cribbing the C3V wording when **-***-** releases (there are a couple of differences, but the unit should be releasing relatively soon, so I'll leave it at that until then).

Following up on this, Re-Tak-Shi (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57356) was recently released with the following power:
SWAMP OOZE
All land or water spaces within 1 space of Re-Tak-Shi that are no more than 5 levels above or below Re-Tak-Shi's base are considered swamp water spaces.
If the pod is still interested in some kind of terrain-changing ability, then something along the lines of this wording would be a good precedent to follow. It is worth noting that swamp water is also counted as water for all abilities, so Re-Tak-Shi already "helps" the Water Elementals and other units that rely on water tiles.
I think the Merfolk Hero could be the terrain changer. and Kiora doesn't need to be one

Confred
June 11th, 2020, 10:23 PM
She looks good in Jandar.

What if the waves at her feet was actually ice?

https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/5/7/1/nothing_854806.png

Captain Stupendous
June 11th, 2020, 11:15 PM
I'd be a little hesitant to add a snow or ice terrain based power when there's not any in the set, and the fact that it is currently very difficult for new players to obtain snow or ice makes the problem worse.

Healing Prayer is an interesting take on a healing ability, although I'm not sure I like it more than the previous direction based around treating adjacent spaces as water, complimented by a healing ability that was more effective when targeting figures in water.

Confred
June 13th, 2020, 02:48 PM
I'd be a little hesitant to add a snow or ice terrain based power when there's not any in the set, and the fact that it is currently very difficult for new players to obtain snow or ice makes the problem worse.

Healing Prayer is an interesting take on a healing ability, although I'm not sure I like it more than the previous direction based around treating adjacent spaces as water, complimented by a healing ability that was more effective when targeting figures in water.

I agree with all said here.

Pumpkin_King
June 17th, 2020, 04:51 PM
WATER HEALER
Aquilla (Or Einar if named Durnipia)
5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start or end their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Kiora, you may roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a ?15? or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.
I like how this version of healing waters makes her more unique as a healer by allowing her to heal multiple heroes at once, but I'd also be on board with Zetsubo's version which has the potential to more consistently heal a single hero.
I really liked Cap S's draft here. How do we feel about this as a starting point? I added a phrase to the first power, bolded.

Captain Stupendous
June 17th, 2020, 07:38 PM
WATER HEALER
Aquilla (Or Einar if named Durnipia)
5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start or end their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Kiora, you may roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a ?15? or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.
I like how this version of healing waters makes her more unique as a healer by allowing her to heal multiple heroes at once, but I'd also be on board with Zetsubo's version which has the potential to more consistently heal a single hero.
I really liked Cap S's draft here. How do we feel about this as a starting point? I added a phrase to the first power, bolded.

I think this works as a good starting point, and I really like your added phrase for the most part. Personally, I would prefer the wording "Kiora and friendly figures who start their turn adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space." I think that only applying this ability to figures who start their turn adjacent to Kiora is just slightly more intuitive than applying it also to figures who end their turn adjacent. Also, making a movement power conditional on where a figure ends their movement seems like it might run into the same problems that plague charging assault? Namely, what happens when a figure moves through water in an attempt to end their move adjacent to Nahiri, but ends up dying from a leaving engagement or falling damage along the way? All that being said, I still think your version is clear enough and would be happy to move forward with it if others preferred it as well :)

How are we all feeling about 15 as the target number for the healing ability? When I first proposed the power I hadn't put too much thought into the specific number, and basically just chose something I didn't think would be too broken.

I also think an argument could be made for giving her a range of 5-7 with her normal attack if we wanted to. Not saying that's necessarily a better direction, just a possibility to consider.

Pumpkin_King
June 17th, 2020, 08:36 PM
Also, making a movement power conditional on where a figure ends their movement seems like it might run into the same problems that plague charging assault?

You're probably right on this count.

15 seems fine for now, that's a dial we can turn in testing.

We could do a range and justify it as some kind of bolt from her trident, but I'd have to see how the diversity of ranged units vs melee pans out.

Zetsubo
June 18th, 2020, 01:28 PM
15 sounds like a good spot to test at. If we do give her range, then I'd say equal range to her healing ability. If she lets figures move through water without stopping if they are adjacent to her at any point in moving, then that would cover instances where they start and stop next to her

flameslayer93
June 19th, 2020, 03:08 PM
I’m a-ok with either range or melee here. Range would help give her value when compared to Kelda, which is nice.

15 is a good value for the healing, especially if it can be boosted.

Captain Stupendous
June 19th, 2020, 07:54 PM
I’m a-ok with either range or melee here. Range would help give her value when compared to Kelda, which is nice.

15 is a good value for the healing, especially if it can be boosted.

Agreed. I think we should choose one direction for now, with the understanding that it might be best to change it for the variety of the set as a whole, either in the mix of range/melee heroes, or point cost diversification.

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2020, 04:01 PM
WATER HEALER
Aquilla (Or Einar if named Durnipia)
5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start or end their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Kiora, you may roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a ?15? or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.
I like how this version of healing waters makes her more unique as a healer by allowing her to heal multiple heroes at once, but I'd also be on board with Zetsubo's version which has the potential to more consistently heal a single hero.
I really liked Cap S's draft here. How do we feel about this as a starting point? I added a phrase to the first power, bolded.
Flame, do you want to edit OP?

flameslayer93
June 27th, 2020, 07:46 PM
OP updated. I've set the tentative cost to 80 because I can see the movement bit being strong on water heavy maps, but purely in a non-competitve sense.

Captain Stupendous
June 27th, 2020, 08:29 PM
OP updated. I've set the tentative cost to 80 because I can see the movement bit being strong on water heavy maps, but purely in a non-competitve sense.

80 sounds like a good place to start. A part of me would prefer a different value just for the sake of being different from Kelda, but I'm okay with it.

However, as I mentioned above, CARRIED BY WAVES should probably be edited to only work for figures who start their turn adjacent to Kiora, not end their turn. Otherwise I think we run into the same problems that we have with Charging Assault. Other than that I really like this as a solid start.

flameslayer93
June 27th, 2020, 08:36 PM
Fixed.

Pumpkin_King
June 29th, 2020, 04:28 PM
I like that draft. Did we all agree on her theme? If so we can change it to Durnipia/Einar and possibly come up with a species name.

Captain Stupendous
July 5th, 2020, 05:46 PM
I like that draft. Did we all agree on her theme? If so we can change it to Durnipia/Einar and possibly come up with a species name.

I don't have a strong preference either way. Either Durnipia/Einar or RANDOM ALIEN NAME/Aquila works for me. The only combination I'm set against would be Durnipia following Aquila.

Pumpkin_King
July 6th, 2020, 06:18 PM
Let's go with the former. Flame, could you edit the OP?

Captain Stupendous
July 25th, 2020, 06:14 PM
@flameslayer it doesn't look like the OP has been updated yet with the name and general of the figure. It seems to me like we're almost ready to get Durnipia into editing? Is it too soon to start thinking about the left box stats? Also, what planet would she be from? Possibly Arctorus? I don't necessarily love using a planet that was introduced by C3V as the home planet for a character who has existed in classic lore for much longer than C3V has even been around, but I wouldn't get too hung up on that. I think a case could also potentially be made for having her hail from Valhalla. How about:

Durnipia
Einar
Aquan
Unique Hero
Priestess
Merciful?
MEDIUM (probably 5)

Pumpkin_King
July 28th, 2020, 07:33 PM
Valhalla or Feylund, I don't think it super matters.
flameslayer93

Also let's vote for editing :up:

Captain Stupendous
July 29th, 2020, 10:04 AM
I'm fine with editing, as long as its okay that we haven't 100% nailed down the left-box stats yet.

I had initially suggested the following stats as a starting point for discussion:

Durnipia
Einar/Feylund
Aquan?
Unique Hero
Priestess
Merciful?
Medium (probably 5)

Would we also want to take this opportunity to make the wording for Carried By Waves more similar in syntax to Re-Tak-Shi's Swamp Ooze ability? A reworded Carried By Waves could look something like this:

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

Pumpkin_King
July 30th, 2020, 06:00 PM
Sorry, I realized I hadn't commented on leftbox stats!

That list looks good for leftbox. No synergy that I can see, which in this case was good.

I also just noticed the taking-out of "start or end" - I'd like to ask a rules person when we get to editing if that's feasible. We very well could run into a Kozuke situation.

Captain Stupendous
July 30th, 2020, 08:59 PM
Sorry, I realized I hadn't commented on leftbox stats!

That list looks good for leftbox. No synergy that I can see, which in this case was good.

I also just noticed the taking-out of "start or end" - I'd like to ask a rules person when we get to editing if that's feasible. We very well could run into a Kozuke situation.

Right, I had suggested that the "start or end" wording be removed from "CARRIED BY WAVES" specifically in order to avoid a Kozuke situation. However, if a rules person thinks there is a way to grant the water movement ability to figures that end their turn adjacent to Durnipia, I'd be happy to give her that functionality (I'd prefer it actually, provided that it didn't cause rules problems; however I'm doubtful about whether those issues could be avoided).

As far as leftbox stats go, I think the species "Aquan" is serviceable, although I'd be open to other ideas as I'm not in love with it as a new species.

I'd also slightly prefer for a personality other than "merciful" if only to distinguish her a little more from Kelda. However, I couldn't think of something appropriate at the time so threw merciful in there as a placeholder.

Theoretically, could leftbox stats be changed after editing, provided the changes didn't raise any new synergy implications?

Pumpkin_King
July 31st, 2020, 07:12 PM
I think so. Our process is a little more fluid than VC's.

Stoic, unyielding?

flameslayer93
August 1st, 2020, 08:10 AM
Would Rusalka work?

from wikipedia
According to Vladimir Propp, the original "rusalka" was an appellation used by pagan Slavic peoples, who linked them with fertility and did not consider rusalki evil before the 19th century. They came out of the water in the spring to transfer life-giving moisture to the fields and thus helped nurture the crops.

[{snip}

Modern popular culture

Regarding representations of the rusalka in modern popular culture, folklorist Natalie Kononenko says, "the currently dominant presents her as something like a mermaid, though she is pictured as having legs rather than a fish tail ... The current view of the rusalka as a seductive or seduced woman was probably influenced by written literature. In the past, her image was more complex and she more closely resembled a nature spirit, found not only near water but in fields, forests, and mountains, rather like the vila ...".This would help explain why she summons water and the healing. Also, being humanoid.

Captain Stupendous
August 1st, 2020, 06:54 PM
I like this. While I'm a little disappointed that it leans more into a mystical angle rather than the alien vibe, I do really like how it also ties in with Feylund's tendency of borrowing mythological species from earth.

Pumpkin_King
August 5th, 2020, 03:31 PM
I'm still satisfied with using Durnipia, but if we wanted to go with the mythos angle, having a pre-existing mythical creature would soften the blow for me.

flameslayer93
August 5th, 2020, 05:05 PM
Whose to say her name isn’t Durnipia?

Pumpkin_King
August 13th, 2020, 05:20 PM
We chatted about this in discord - to bring the chat onto the board here, I had misunderstood. I would be happy to have her be a pre-existing mythological figure with the name Durnipia. Are we good to finalize design here?

Captain Stupendous
August 13th, 2020, 06:07 PM
I think we're in a good place to finalize the design. Here's a recap of where I think we're at. I added the personality "Inscrutable" as I thought that fits a mythological nymph-like creature from Feylund better than any of the other suggestions (merciful, stoic, or unyielding). However, if others feel otherwise I don't have a strong preference one way or the other and would still love to hear other options.

It also features my proposed change to Carried by Waves to make the wording more consistent with the precedent set by Re Tak Shi.

EINAR
Durnipia
Rusalka
Unique Hero
Nymph???
Inscrutable
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 80

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each friendly figure within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.

flameslayer93
August 14th, 2020, 12:25 PM
Inscrutable seems like a pretty reasonable personality for her, plus its not exactly used a bunch.

Not too sure about the class yet. Nymph can work, and it would make it easier to discern what a Rusalka is.

Pumpkin_King
August 17th, 2020, 07:01 PM
Nymph is usually a race but we can use it as a class here for sure. I'm good with this draft. :up:

Strack9
October 2nd, 2020, 12:52 AM
What would the interaction be between the Carried by Waves power and similar terrain changing powers such as the Greater Ice Elemental's Ice Cold power? Would the latest power to change the properties of the space take precedence, or would the space in question somehow have simultaneous properties?

Astroking112
October 2nd, 2020, 02:11 AM
What would the interaction be between the Carried by Waves power and similar terrain changing powers such as the Greater Ice Elemental's Ice Cold power? Would the latest power to change the properties of the space take precedence, or would the space in question somehow have simultaneous properties?

Any spaces affected by both Carried by Waves and Ice Cold should be treated as ice. Carried by Waves is based off of a similar power from C3V's Re-Tak-Shi (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57356), where there is a ruling that the terrain is first converted to swamp water and then turned to ice by the Greater Ice Elemental.

As to the interaction between Carried by Waves and Swamp Ooze (whether the terrain is treated as water or swamp water), I'm not sure. I believe that this should get cleared up in Editing.

Strack9
October 3rd, 2020, 07:11 AM
Just curious

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.
Is land space defined in Heroscape? Is it any tile type that's not a 0 hight tile or any space that is undefined (i.e. is a Road Space a Land Space or not?).

flameslayer93
October 3rd, 2020, 08:00 AM
Just curious

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.
Is land space defined in Heroscape? Is it any tile type that's not a 0 hight tile or any space that is undefined (i.e. is a Road Space a Land Space or not?).

Yes to everything. :)

Strack9
October 3rd, 2020, 08:20 AM
So while Re-Tak-Shi (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57356) and Kiora occupy the same sphere of influence,
Re-Tak-Shi would cancel Kiora's power entirely if he changed the space under Kiora to Swamp Water. But if he were just beyond that space, would he be changing her water to Swamp Water? or would she change his Swamp water to Water?

I suppose it could be solved by changing her power to "same-level Land Spaces", but I think there might eventually need to be a design hierarchy of what land types can be turned into or else there may be a future land changing loop.

for example, right now nothing can change Ice into Water, because of the perpetual loop with the Greater Ice Elemental

As long as nothing can be turned into a Land Space, every type changing power will have a starting point.

flameslayer93
October 3rd, 2020, 08:58 AM
Very true. We will likely need to ask Scytale about the best way to handle the interaction.

We could have Kiora simply create Swamp Water, or drop that part of the power altogether.

Scytale
October 3rd, 2020, 02:00 PM
Ugh. Given the arguments we had between Re-Tak-Shi and GIE, I don't even want to think about Re-Tak-Shi and Kiora interactions.

flameslayer93
October 3rd, 2020, 02:10 PM
Pumpkin_King

I do believe that would give us good reason to drop the qater creating portion.

Strack9
October 3rd, 2020, 04:42 PM
What if she creates a new kind of space like Wave Space or Sea Water and then define it like the rulebook does for Swamp Water; "counts as water for abilities that use water.

It would be a shame to have to scrap the Carried By Waves power. I kind of like it

Scytale
October 3rd, 2020, 06:59 PM
What if she creates a new kind of space like Wave Space or Sea Water and then define it like the rulebook does for Swamp Water; "counts as water for abilities that use water.

It would be a shame to have to scrap the Carried By Waves power. I kind of like it
The first half or second half? The first half only mildly limits moving around in engagements (and triggers a few water-based powers, like working as a defensive booster for Microcorp). The second half doesn't require the water conversion.

Captain Stupendous
October 3rd, 2020, 07:22 PM
I actually don't think the interaction between Durnipia and Re Tak Shi is any worse than the Greater Ice Elemental and Re Tak Shi. I'm posting both powers below for reference. Note that the wording for Carried By Waves is slightly different than what is on the first page currently, as it is my suggested wording from a page back which I think is more consistent with the precedent set by Re Tak Shi.

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.


SWAMP OOZE
All land or water spaces within 1 space of Re-Tak-Shi that are no more than 5 levels above or below Re-Tak-Shi's base are considered swamp water spaces.


Since Durnipia's Carried By Waves only converts land spaces into water, and Re Tak Shi turns both land or water spaces into swamp water, any space between the two of them will always end up as swamp water, following the same logic by which anything between the Greater Ice Elemental and Re Tak Shi ends up as ice.

Shoutout to @Skinderella on discord for helping to point out this interaction. I think that with my proposed wording for Carried By Waves we should be all good as far as this specific interaction goes, unless there's something I'm missing.

Strack9
October 4th, 2020, 01:18 AM
What if she creates a new kind of space like Wave Space or Sea Water and then define it like the rulebook does for Swamp Water; "counts as water for abilities that use water.

It would be a shame to have to scrap the Carried By Waves power. I kind of like it
The first half or second half? The first half only mildly limits moving around in engagements (and triggers a few water-based powers, like working as a defensive booster for Microcorp). The second half doesn't require the water conversion.
I like the first half because it lets Healing Waters always have a potential target.

Pumpkin_King
October 4th, 2020, 03:46 PM
Another option is "All spaces within 4 CSS count as water spaces for the purposes of Special Powers on army cards you control". IT would eliminate a little of its offensive/disruption ability, but make it less of a headache for RTS/GIE possibly?

Captain Stupendous
October 6th, 2020, 08:38 PM
Another option is "All spaces within 4 CSS count as water spaces for the purposes of Special Powers on army cards you control". IT would eliminate a little of its offensive/disruption ability, but make it less of a headache for RTS/GIE possibly?

I don't see the problem with the current interaction? Unless I'm missing something, it seems relatively clear that any spaces between Durnipia and Re-Tak-Shi will always be turned to swamp water, and all spaces between Durnipia and Greater Ice Elemental will be turned to ice.

Astroking112
October 6th, 2020, 09:16 PM
My reading would also be that tiles affected by both powers always end up as swamp water anyway, since Carried by Waves only affects land spaces and Swamp Ooze affects both. I don't know if that's the correct or best approach, but it's the route that makes the most sense to me.

That said, the deeper concern is how this kind of interaction might get expanded on in the future. I don't think that it's immediately intuitive which order to apply these kinds of powers in, and short of setting up a hierarchy of terrain-changing effects (which I'd really prefer to not do here), these interactions will only get more complex as more terrain-changing powers emerge. I think that it's a valid question to ask whether this level of complexity rules-interaction-wise is justifiable for the project, with a variety of other factors like how common our players will be experiencing the issues once they start expanding the game playing in as well. :2cents:

NecroBlade
October 6th, 2020, 10:12 PM
IMO the interaction is fine as-is, and the answer is already given to us by the RTS/GIE interaction. RTS turns everything to swamp water, then the GIE turns it into ice, per RTS' R&C. RTS has a constant effect, while GIE's use of "while..." means you have to check the status of the space, then apply the effect if able. Durnipia also uses "while..." so the interactions would be:

Spaces within 1 of both RTS and Durnipia are water. RTS turns them into swamp, then Durnipia checks if she's on a land space and if so turns them into water
If RTS is within 1 space of Durnipia, she does not change adjacent spaces. RTS changes Durnipia's space to swamp water, then when she checks she is not on a land space and does nothing

Bonus theme: engaging the healer with the vile Marro corrupts her waters with swamp (although it doesn't actually affect her negatively, since figures already don't have to stop in swamp water, and swamp water still counts as water for her healing; on a related note, maybe we can differentiate that by saying "subtract 5 from your roll if the figure is on a swamp water space).

Captain Stupendous
October 10th, 2020, 12:54 PM
How does everyone feel about my suggested changes for Carried by Waves vs what is in the OP? I'll share them again as a refresher:

Current Wording: CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.


My suggested wording: CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

Also, just for reference, Re-Tak-Shi's Swamp Ooze ability which I based my suggested wording on. Note that I also think the interaction between Swamp Ooze and Carried by Waves is clearer with my suggested wording: SWAMP OOZE
All land or water spaces within 1 space of Re-Tak-Shi that are no more than 5 levels above or below Re-Tak-Shi's base are considered swamp water spaces.

Once we've finalized the wording on her powers and confirmed the leftbox stats, I think she should be just about ready for public review?

flameslayer93
October 10th, 2020, 12:59 PM
Looks good to me. After some serious high level analysis, I'm thinking the terraforming bit is worth keeping in the context of MS and because RTS already included a contingency plan that feels as though it was made specifically for water creation powers, we should proceed. :)

I'll update the OP when I'm back on my laptop.

Astroking112
October 11th, 2020, 02:44 PM
I think that basing the wording off of Re-Tak-Shi makes the most sense here. I hadn't realized that the current wording included clauses about her being forced to be on a land space; that seems unnecessary to me and I'd prefer to mirror the closest terrain-changing precedent. I'm no editor, of course, but I think that it also results in a more understandable card.

NecroBlade
October 11th, 2020, 09:27 PM
I get why (because of RTS), but it's kinda weird that she doesn't change non-land spaces.

Pumpkin_King
October 12th, 2020, 09:05 PM
What non-land spaces would it make sense to change? Not lava, surely.

I'm good to put her in public review. Cap S's wording is solid.

Scytale
October 13th, 2020, 12:07 PM
IMO the interaction is fine as-is, and the answer is already given to us by the RTS/GIE interaction. RTS turns everything to swamp water, then the GIE turns it into ice, per RTS' R&C. RTS has a constant effect, while GIE's use of "while..." means you have to check the status of the space, then apply the effect if able. Durnipia also uses "while..." so the interactions would be:

Spaces within 1 of both RTS and Durnipia are water. RTS turns them into swamp, then Durnipia checks if she's on a land space and if so turns them into water
If RTS is within 1 space of Durnipia, she does not change adjacent spaces. RTS changes Durnipia's space to swamp water, then when she checks she is not on a land space and does nothing

Bonus theme: engaging the healer with the vile Marro corrupts her waters with swamp (although it doesn't actually affect her negatively, since figures already don't have to stop in swamp water, and swamp water still counts as water for her healing; on a related note, maybe we can differentiate that by saying "subtract 5 from your roll if the figure is on a swamp water space).
I don't buy it. The "while" on GIE does not have the effect you claim (the GIE-RTS interaction works for other reasons), and and I'm not convinced that a land space adjacent to RTS is not still a "land space."

A land space between RTS and Durnipia is not clear. Both are able to change the other's space types to their own, and both do so simultaneously and continuously.

This is still a no-go. The two powers do not play together in any predictable way. Even the d20 roll-off doesn't work, as it creates a memory mechanic of what the spaces became when figures moved close together, or an annoying d20 roll-off every time a figure needs to check what the space is.

Captain Stupendous
October 13th, 2020, 12:42 PM
IMO the interaction is fine as-is, and the answer is already given to us by the RTS/GIE interaction. RTS turns everything to swamp water, then the GIE turns it into ice, per RTS' R&C. RTS has a constant effect, while GIE's use of "while..." means you have to check the status of the space, then apply the effect if able. Durnipia also uses "while..." so the interactions would be:

Spaces within 1 of both RTS and Durnipia are water. RTS turns them into swamp, then Durnipia checks if she's on a land space and if so turns them into water
If RTS is within 1 space of Durnipia, she does not change adjacent spaces. RTS changes Durnipia's space to swamp water, then when she checks she is not on a land space and does nothing

Bonus theme: engaging the healer with the vile Marro corrupts her waters with swamp (although it doesn't actually affect her negatively, since figures already don't have to stop in swamp water, and swamp water still counts as water for her healing; on a related note, maybe we can differentiate that by saying "subtract 5 from your roll if the figure is on a swamp water space).
I don't buy it. The "while" on GIE does not have the effect you claim (the GIE-RTS interaction works for other reasons), and and I'm not convinced that a land space adjacent to RTS is not still a "land space."

A land space between RTS and Durnipia is not clear. Both are able to change the other's space types to their own, and both do so simultaneously and continuously.

This is still a no-go. The two powers do not play together in any predictable way. Even the d20 roll-off doesn't work, as it creates a memory mechanic of what the spaces became when figures moved close together, or an annoying d20 roll-off every time a figure needs to check what the space is.

I agree that the current wording in the OP is unclear. That's why I proposed a change that I think should remove any ambiguity between the interactions.

Current Wording:

CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

My new suggested wording:
CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

Also, just for reference, Re-Tak-Shi's Swamp Ooze ability which I based my suggested wording on:

SWAMP OOZE
All land or water spaces within 1 space of Re-Tak-Shi that are no more than 5 levels above or below Re-Tak-Shi's base are considered swamp water spaces.

Since Re-Tak-Shi converts all land or water spaces, but Durnipia only converts land spaces, no matter the order in which their abilities are applied RTS's Ooze will always override Durnipia's Carried By Waves.

Scytale
October 13th, 2020, 12:50 PM
Since Re-Tak-Shi converts all land or water spaces, but Durnipia only converts land spaces, no matter the order in which their abilities are applied RTS's Ooze will always override Durnipia's Carried By Waves.
That relies on the theory that land spaces converted to swamp water are no longer land spaces. Could Mika place a shadow tile on top of a grass space that's been converted to swamp water by RTS? I'm not sure of the answer to it, though the thought that it is no longer a "land space" is a reasonable interpretation.

If we buy that, it does fall into the same argument that we allowed for the GIE-RTS interaction, that there is only one final result. So I agree it works.

Captain Stupendous
October 13th, 2020, 01:01 PM
Since Re-Tak-Shi converts all land or water spaces, but Durnipia only converts land spaces, no matter the order in which their abilities are applied RTS's Ooze will always override Durnipia's Carried By Waves.
That relies on the theory that land spaces converted to swamp water are no longer land spaces. Could Mika place a shadow tile on top of a grass space that's been converted to swamp water by RTS? I'm not sure of the answer to it, though the thought that it is no longer a "land space" is a reasonable interpretation.

If we buy that, it does fall into the same argument that we allowed for the GIE-RTS interaction, that there is only one final result. So I agree it works.

I thought it was clear from RTS ability that all land or water spaces are considered to [instead] be swamp water spaces for all purposes. I suppose you COULD interpret the power to mean that all land or water spaces are considered to be swamp water spaces in addition to their original designation. However, this seems like a poor reading of the power and goes against the precedent set by GIE (water tiles affected by GIE aren't still considered to be water in addition to ice, right? For example, Water Clone isn't boosted if a Marro Warrior is standing on a water space affected by GIE?)

Scytale
October 13th, 2020, 01:07 PM
Since Re-Tak-Shi converts all land or water spaces, but Durnipia only converts land spaces, no matter the order in which their abilities are applied RTS's Ooze will always override Durnipia's Carried By Waves.
That relies on the theory that land spaces converted to swamp water are no longer land spaces. Could Mika place a shadow tile on top of a grass space that's been converted to swamp water by RTS? I'm not sure of the answer to it, though the thought that it is no longer a "land space" is a reasonable interpretation.

If we buy that, it does fall into the same argument that we allowed for the GIE-RTS interaction, that there is only one final result. So I agree it works.

I thought it was clear from RTS ability that all land or water spaces are considered to [instead] be swamp water spaces for all purposes. I suppose you COULD interpret the power to mean that all land or water spaces are considered to be swamp water spaces in addition to their original designation. However, this seems like a poor reading of the power and goes against the precedent set by GIE (water tiles affected by GIE aren't still considered to be water in addition to ice, right? For example, Water Clone isn't boosted if a Marro Warrior is standing on a water space affected by GIE?)
Yeah, it's certainly a reasonable interpretation, and almost certainly the right one. It's weird because "land space" is pretty much defined as "not a flat tile," and it still isn't a flat tile. But yeah, it's swamp water.

Captain Stupendous
October 13th, 2020, 01:08 PM
Since Re-Tak-Shi converts all land or water spaces, but Durnipia only converts land spaces, no matter the order in which their abilities are applied RTS's Ooze will always override Durnipia's Carried By Waves.
That relies on the theory that land spaces converted to swamp water are no longer land spaces. Could Mika place a shadow tile on top of a grass space that's been converted to swamp water by RTS? I'm not sure of the answer to it, though the thought that it is no longer a "land space" is a reasonable interpretation.

If we buy that, it does fall into the same argument that we allowed for the GIE-RTS interaction, that there is only one final result. So I agree it works.

I thought it was clear from RTS ability that all land or water spaces are considered to [instead] be swamp water spaces for all purposes. I suppose you COULD interpret the power to mean that all land or water spaces are considered to be swamp water spaces in addition to their original designation. However, this seems like a poor reading of the power and goes against the precedent set by GIE (water tiles affected by GIE aren't still considered to be water in addition to ice, right? For example, Water Clone isn't boosted if a Marro Warrior is standing on a water space affected by GIE?)
Yeah, it's certainly a reasonable interpretation, and almost certainly the right one. It's weird because "land space" is pretty much defined as "not a flat tile," and it still isn't a flat tile. But yeah, it's swamp water.

I feel like its the only reasonable interpretation, unless you're willing to say that water turned to ice still counts as water for the purpose of Microcorp, Water Clone, and the like, which doesn't seem reasonable to me.

flameslayer93
October 13th, 2020, 01:57 PM
Alright OP Updated (even with a flashy new title). I've included a couple FAQs concerning RTS and Mika Connour. I can add in the interaction with other water spaces too, if its needed.

If Scytale is sufficiently happy with Carried By Waves as is, I call that we move to Public Review.

Captain Stupendous
October 13th, 2020, 02:03 PM
Alright OP Updated (even with a flashy new title). I've included a couple FAQs concerning RTS and Mika Connour. I can add in the interaction with other water spaces too, if its needed.

If Scytale is sufficiently happy with Carried By Waves as is, I call that we move to Public Review.

Thanks flameslayer! Looks good. The only thing I'd mention is that Healing Waters still references Kiora instead of Durnipia. Other than that I think we're ready for public review as long as Scytale thinks the "spaces considered to be something else are not also considered to be the original thing" argument is reasonable and good to proceed with.

Based on the ratio of ranged to melee units in the set I still think that we should keep the possibility of boosting her range in the back of our minds, but I don't think that's necessary yet unless the rest of the pod wants to adopt it.

flameslayer93
October 13th, 2020, 02:09 PM
You saw no such mistake. :p

Pumpkin_King
October 13th, 2020, 09:11 PM
Well done, folks. This one is tricky.

Pumpkin_King
October 25th, 2020, 06:30 PM
Okay, so - flameslayer called the vote for public feedback, and I forgot to vote, so here we go, :up:

Let's get her and the Sentinels to PF phase.

Captain Stupendous
October 25th, 2020, 06:38 PM
:up: from me for Public Feedback Phase.

Strack9
October 29th, 2020, 02:27 AM
since its for an entry level type Master set, what would be wrong with taking the rulings and interpretations out of it and just adding the red below:
CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces instead of land spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

Captain Stupendous
October 29th, 2020, 01:06 PM
since its for an entry level type Master set, what would be wrong with taking the rulings and interpretations out of it and just adding the red below:
CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces instead of land spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.


Hmmm, that would make the power clearer I think. The only "problem" with this change would be that the wording would no longer as closely match the precedent set by Re-Tak-Shi in her "Swamp Ooze" power. I could potentially see some players becoming confused by trying to figure out what the difference is between spaces that are just "considered swamp water spaces" (Re Tak Shi) and spaces that are "considered water spaces instead of land spaces" (Durnipia), when our intent is to make the powers function the same, with the only difference being the terrain types affected, and the terrain types they are changed to.

Pumpkin_King
November 8th, 2020, 06:47 PM
Alright, I'm calling the vote - we're in public feedback. flameslayer93 change the thread title please?

Pumpkin_King
November 8th, 2020, 08:43 PM
It is time to welcome public feedback on this thread! We're always open to feedback, but this is when we specifically are asking you for your opinion on a unit! We're interested in getting outsider thoughts on the unit in the main post of this thread so that we can catch any potential errors and make the most polished units possible.

We do ask that all commenters keep in mind the core goals of the AotV project when giving their feedback. For reference, they are:

1. To be compatible with Classic/Official Heroscape, and completely VC-compliant: that is, designing with C3V and SoV figures in mind, and focusing on the AOTP figures that would be acceptable to SoV (figures that are pre-painted or usable without paint).

2. To provide an affordable and user-friendly entry point to both new and returning players, that captures the feel of a true Master Set.

3. To create balanced units that are relatively simple, easy to understand, and feel at home in a self-contained set together. Units will come from a wide range of themes, and capture the diversity of theme Heroscape is beloved for.


These tenants of the project are important cornerstones for each design. Although other units can be very complex or otherwise rely on other units that they were not packaged with, that is not within the scope of this project.

Each unit should be interesting when compared only against the rest of AotV; they should still be exciting when taken out of the box, but we are assuming that this is an entry-level product for the game. Think of the original Rise of the Valkyrie Master Set, before any expansions were added, and when all of the units were just standalone unique characters.

That said, we welcome your feedback now, and we'd love to hear what you think about this unit! The Public Feedback Phase in this thread will end on 11/22/20, unless otherwise noted.

Strack9
November 11th, 2020, 02:47 AM
For me, I think being Carried by Waves should thematically work no more than 1 or 2 levels higher than her base. For sure less than her height of 5. Water travels downhill so I'm good with more spaces at lower levels. For example, the GIE only freezes what it's standing on (same level), and RTS slimes everything her shoulders rub against (5 levels higher compared to height of 6) plus the ooze runs downhill as well.

So, like:

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or 5 levels below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

I like where you all have taken this figure. I think I'll try to run a game with her tonight!

Captain Stupendous
November 11th, 2020, 11:06 AM
For me, I think being Carried by Waves should thematically work no more than 1 or 2 levels higher than her base. For sure less than her height of 5. Water travels downhill so I'm good with more spaces at lower levels. For example, the GIE only freezes what it's standing on (same level), and RTS slimes everything her shoulders rub against (5 levels higher compared to height of 6) plus the ooze runs downhill as well.

So, like:

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or 5 levels below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

I like where you all have taken this figure. I think I'll try to run a game with her tonight!

I like this suggestion. The only reason I proposed 5 spaces initially was because I was basing the power as much as possible off of the precedent set by Re Tak Shi, but I don't see any mechanical reason why changing the number of levels above her base that she affects would be a bad idea. I also agree that it would help to convey the theme a little better.

Strack9
November 12th, 2020, 04:50 AM
So I soloed a 500 pt. Durnipea vs. Durnipea match yesterday on the Sidewinder map.

Durnipea 80
Valguard 110
Dreadgul Raiders x4 260
Guilty 30
Marcu 20

Vs.

Durnipea 80
Microcorp Agents x3 300
Fen Hydra 120


My Thought with the former was just put Valguard and Durnipea together for fun and see if there were any unexpected times when Durnipia felt worth the order marker.

The thought with the latter was to make her the centerpiece of the army; Survivability for the Microcorp A’s and healing where it’s most appreciated: the hydra.


First Round: Both sides made use of Durnipia’s pseudo-slither to ford the river to the right of their start-zone. The Dreadguls found the glyph of Oreld (intercept order) but pulled the “X”. The Microcorps got 1 shot off and good positioning while the Hydra moved up.

Second Round: I could have moved Durnipia up to really beef up some Microcorp’s Defense but it seemed better to defend with offense so the Microcorps took the Glyph of Dagmar (initiative +8 ) and kept the right side of their map clean while Valgard and one Dreadgul made it through on the left to put 3 wounds on the Hydra and Kill an Agent.

Third Round: I had poor foresight when I moved my Hydra up in the first round, so I tried to 1. reposition 2. Heal/fortify 3. Resume Blasting but the Dreadguls Killed the Hydra before Durnipia could get there and tied down the Agents so that Guilty could start pinging over the top of the melee. Durnipia did bring a couple of M. Agents up to 6 Def and get an attack in on her 1 order-marker of the game.

Fourth round: Durnipia soaked a couple more attacks before falling while Dreadgul and Microcorps took each other out at around the same speed, but with Guilty getting 4 kills the Agents couldn’t keep up. GG.


Thoughts: Durnipia with Valgard was responsible for about 15 extra movements but wasn’t ever worth an order marker. Even if Valgard and Guilty had been injured I think it would have been tough keeping her close in an (almost) all melee army, and I definitely wouldn’t have liked giving up height with either one of them to go down to the river to be baptized.

Durnipea with the Agents of Hydra (All hail Hydra!:)) also granted 15 extra moves and got the Agents some great high spots within range to be bolstered. She also had the potential to do some healing if I had played better or if the Hydra’s luck would have been better. She did manage to help some water-specialized figures but any aggro that would have gone their way was easy to turn on her instead since she was so close, and with a better chance to hit. Maybe I got an extra attack or two from a primed Agent out of the deal, but I would have gotten 3 extra attacks had I put her order marker on them instead.

Final thoughts: I did get some of her points back out of the movement augmentation. Raelin would have done the same protection job from a safer distance and Kelda would have been able to reach the Hydra and almost surely healed something without as much finagling, but neither could have potentially done both. However, it’s going to be quite a specialized build that wants to do both. I didn’t really explore her potential to gum up a choke point yet but for 80 points, Rats x2 are going to be better at that. What sets her apart from the other healers currently, is her ability to heal multiple Heroes (and herself) at the same time so maybe with the Lawmen or a Laglor ranged pod. I think if I’d want to take her over Kelda, though, I’d like to see the heal chance go up. Right now I’d rather take one 95% chance to heal than two or three 30% chances . . .

. . . I’m gonna try some other armies out so I can develop my thoughts more

Strack9
November 20th, 2020, 06:14 AM
I hope I'm not being overenthusiastic to what is being hoped for from public feedback, but I have more thoughts so I'll post them. If I'm overstepping then please ignore anything that is too much.

I know the healing dial is a moving target, but I want to make a case for it starting at a roll of 6-20.

First there’s the feel of it.

For the major healers of ClasicScape, Rhogar starts healing at 6 and Kelda starts to level up at 6.

Secondly there’s the question of if it’s too powerful inserted into VC.

Is it too powerful for 1 army?

Despite being technically able to heal 61 wounded heroes who are all on a map made entirely of water, the reality is that she will rarely get a chance to even double heal. Most times the Aura of 4 while on water is just for flavor since water is usually one of the most disadvantageous spaces on the map, so mostly she’s healing wounded heroes who are adjacent. And even if you had a Re-Tak-Shi/Othqurik combo going where you had multiple heroes reliably on water, the opponent could just pick them off one at a time. But just for hypothetical’s sake, say you had a clump of high defense heroes that your opponent wanted to whittle down evenly like the Wildwoods. I don’t think it would be an insurmountable challenge for most matchups. (I tried surrounding her with the Monarch, 3 Sentinels and 2 Runners to see if I could keep healing a wall around her against 3 consistent attacks of 3 (PK’s X8 ) on even ground, and broke even after 6 tries)

Is it too powerful in a team battle?

It might depend on how many teams, but my gut feeling is that you would have to work extremely hard with singular purpose to abuse this power by healing too many people.

Is it too powerful for Durnipia to heal herself?

Cyprien and Sonlen pay a premium for their abilities to attack and possibly heal themselves in the process, but they have good attacks and chances to multi attack even. The Ice troll, who's close in price, has a better attack, a better chance to heal, and bonds. If Durnipea's going to dabble in a clean-up roll, her mitigating factor is her absolutely average stats. Her regeneration gives her some usefulness if she's the last one left, but certainly not remotely overpowered. (actually I think a "6-20" Durnipia vs. an Ice Troll Berserker would be a pretty close matchup)

Thirdly, will it be fun to play with the rest of the master set it comes in. There’s a lot of heroes in the AotP set and not so much water on the cardboard map pieces that the enjoyment is going to come primarily from helping her team jump across rivers. Maybe her water making power will interact with Jace somehow, but if you’re bringing her to be a healer, to me it would feel more fun for her to heal more reliably, especially if it’s only for 1 point at a time.


On being a Rusalka and a Nymph:
I have less pause at her being a Nymph than a Rusalka, but I don't think she should be both. At least not for her class. Rusalka is my least favorite for this sculpt.
The nature of rusalkas varies among folk traditions, but according to ethnologist D.K. Zelenin they all share a common element: they are the restless spirits of the unclean dead. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid)
I'm not against a Nymph per se, but personally, I’d prefer something more general/universal like a Merfolk. Einar gives me more of an impression of being Imperial or Regal or Bold. Nymphs seem more flighty/aloof. Merfolk can be interpreted in all kinds of different ways, from mythologies to D&D to MtG. IMHO It gives a wider chance to possibly mesh with a future Merfolk that might have a different sculpt-type.

In her armor, with her staff, I see Durnipia as the Queen or a General of the Merfolk of the seas of Feylund who were perhaps disdainful of the realms of land until the Doomstone fell into the hands of evil at the battle of the Nine Wizards, forcing all kingdoms of Feylund to ally together, or perish.

Maybe she’s a Warlord even; Brought by Einar not only for her ability to sustain his armies, but to lead his legions across the Rubicons of Valhalla. There are more synergy combos to think about if you go down that road (although she herself can never go down any roads since she washes them out :)).


What if her 4 space sphere of influence over water, was for both her healing ability and her gift of slither:

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or 5 levels below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move on a water space within four clear sight spaces of Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

Effectively not too different but slightly more useful in maps that have start-zones with water/swamp-water. Your figures still have to plant themselves in water first to cross water later.

Finally, I think the wording for Healing Waters should more closely resemble other healers:
HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a 6 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.

[/Thoughts]

Captain Stupendous
November 20th, 2020, 11:57 AM
Strack9 Thanks so much for your playtest and in depth feedback! I can't speak for all of the pod members here, but personally your most recent post is exactly the kind of engagement and feedback I was hoping for, so thank you!

First, I like your proposed wording for Healing Waters to bring things more in line with the other healers and would suggest adopting it.

I also can definitely see how Healing Waters could be underwhelming in practice. Lowering the target number is an obvious solution to that, and I'm definitely open to exploring that direction. 6+ seems a little low to me, but I think its worth considering.

An alternate possibility would be to borrow a page from Marro Warriors and make Healing Waters affect everyone within 4 spaces, and then just give a boost to the roll if they're on a water space. Something like this was suggested very early in the thread, but never in a form that could heal multiple heroes, which I think is an interesting feature of the current design. It would end up looking something like this:

HEALING WATERS V2
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each other friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card. If that figure is on a water space, add 5 to your roll.

This version is strictly better than the current draft, which I'm okay with if the current version proves to be underwhelming in practice. I'd also be okay with raising Durnipia's price point higher than 80; in some ways I'd prefer it actually, if only to distinguish her more from Kelda.

I also think that the concerns about the pairing of Rusalka and Nymph are justified. Personally I lean slightly toward using Nymph as a species over Merfolk, mainly because Merfolk is already an established D&D species. Since D&D lore is technically canon within heroscape, I could see how making her a merfolk might mean that we'd have to make her consistent with the attributes of D&D merfolk.

I think I'd prefer the Nymph species and just Healer class, although I'd be open to exploring a more "regal" direction for her as well. Another potential option for species that's already been used before is "Sidhe" which is the species of the c3v Eilan Sidhe (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=48071). Google defines "Sidhe" as the fairy people of Irish folklore, said to live beneath the hills and often identified as the remnant of the ancient Tuatha Dé Danann.. I think I'd still slightly prefer Nymph over Sidhe, but wanted to mention it, especially since there's precedent for it.

I'm less convinced that expanding the range for Carried By Waves to a 4 space radius is necessary? It also strikes me as just slightly less thematic, since the terraforming part of the ability only affects spaces next to her.

Anyway, thanks again for your feedback and the playtest. It's SUPER helpful and exciting to get input from people outside the pod itself :)

Strack9
November 21st, 2020, 02:42 AM
I also can definitely see how Healing Waters could be underwhelming in practice. Lowering the target number is an obvious solution to that, and I'm definitely open to exploring that direction. 6+ seems a little low to me, but I think its worth considering.

I'm sure play-testing will bear out an appropriate number.

An alternate possibility would be to borrow a page from Marro Warriors and make Healing Waters affect everyone within 4 spaces, and then just give a boost to the roll if they're on a water space. Something like this was suggested very early in the thread, but never in a form that could heal multiple heroes, which I think is an interesting feature of the current design. It would end up looking something like this:

HEALING WATERS V2
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each other friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card. If that figure is on a water space, add 5 to your roll.

FWIW, Adding the word "other" prevents her from healing herself which I think is also an interesting feature of the current design. It gives her a little something to do once all the heroes to heal are gone.

V2 seems alright to me too. I'm not sure how I feel yet. I suspect the usefulness of covering 61 spaces with healing potential will drive the to-hit numbers up on principle, but that in practice the 1 or 2 heroes able to have been healed, could have been gotten adjacent to and would have valued a higher % chance to be healed that the power night have offered if it were more restrictive who it could target.

I'd also be okay with raising Durnipia's price point higher than 80; in some ways I'd prefer it actually, if only to distinguish her more from Kelda.

In any case, if someone comes up with a situation or tactic that makes it too powerful for a reliable multi-heal, another aspect that could be dampened would be to restrict it to a max of 2. Kelda heals 1 hero, 2 hit-points reliably (maybe all the way). Durnipia heals 2 heroes, 1 hit-point reliably.

I also think that the concerns about the pairing of Rusalka and Nymph are justified. Personally I lean slightly toward using Nymph as a species over Merfolk, mainly because Merfolk is already an established D&D species. Since D&D lore is technically canon within heroscape, I could see how making her a merfolk might mean that we'd have to make her consistent with the attributes of D&D merfolk.

Not necessarily. The crossovers of general species between universes are already present. You’ve got Dragons from Icaria and Toril, Dwarves from Eberon and Feylund. Elves, Giants, Ogres from different planets. The Orcs from Grut are blue and bald, while the Orcs from Toril are Black and harry. Perhaps the Merfolk from Feylund are pipedal like the ones from MtG. You'd only have to make her consistent with the attributes of D&D if she comes from Toril or Eberon.

I think I'd prefer the Nymph species and just Healer class, although I'd be open to exploring a more "regal" direction for her as well. Another potential option for species that's already been used before is "Sidhe" which is the species of the c3v Eilan Sidhe (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=48071). Google defines "Sidhe" as the fairy people of Irish folklore, said to live beneath the hills and often identified as the remnant of the ancient Tuatha Dé Danann.. I think I'd still slightly prefer Nymph over Sidhe, but wanted to mention it, especially since there's precedent for it.

Nymph or Sidhe are fine choices and I’d be happy seeing either of those or whatever else. Merfolk is just where I ended up in my own mind, trying to come up with an Einar-like back story for her appearance.

I'm less convinced that expanding the range for Carried By Waves to a 4 space radius is necessary? It also strikes me as just slightly less thematic, since the terraforming part of the ability only affects spaces next to her.

I agree. It's not necessary at all, and my thematics are subjective. I was just putting my musing to text "if she can heal with the water 4 spaces away, maybe it's because she can control all the water around her, and if so, maybe she can surge people forward with that water in addition to the water next to her". It wouldn't have made any difference in any of the maps I play-tested on since none of them had a second water barrier to cross if you landed in the first one.

On the other side of the thematics coin, I think it would also make sense, and she'd still be useful, if she could only heal heroes that were adjacent to her since that's where the water she brought with her is.

Pumpkin_King
November 23rd, 2020, 02:51 PM
Wow, thank you for all the feedback, Strack!

I'm okay with Nymph, and I think those are good ideas. I'd be fine with a radius difference between her heal and her terraform, with a Marro-like bonus for those on water. The slither stretching 4 spaces seems like a lot?


Going to extend the public feedback for a week or so.

Astroking112
November 26th, 2020, 09:56 PM
I'm not sure why this design is Durnipia. I like the design itself a lot, but the focus on water and overall aesthetic of the design heavily imply Aquilla here. I know that this was a point of discussion much earlier in the process, but I feel like either a new, water-focused character following Aquilla or Durnipia (paying homage to her existing lore) were very promising directions for this character. The design in the OP is almost entirely leaning towards the former, but it is still called Durnipia. It's certainly fine to take a new spin on existing characters, but for a relatively obscure pull from official bios, I don't feel like this adds much to the presented character. Especially given that we don't have any Aquilla characters in our box yet, I feel like a new character based on the Rusalka mythos is much more fitting here.

I also agree with Strack9's comment about 5 spaces being too much thematically. I do think that the height limits should match on either side of her base, though--even though water flows downhill, it'll be much easier for new players to remember if it's just one static cutoff on either side. To that end, I'd suggest limiting the water conversion to just within 2 levels above or below her base, or some other similarly small value.

I also agree with Captain Stupendeous that it would be good to set a high roll cutoff for healing any heroes, even on land (perhaps 18+), and just provide a bonus to the D20 for being on a water space, a la the Marro Warriors. That would let her be more valuable in a variety of team builds or the Master Set in general, but especially useful on maps with water (which often place water in inopportune locations anyway). These values could of course be tuned in playtesting.

My final concern is perhaps the greatest: as it stands, Durnipia is going to really block up your own units. Since she only grants the ability to move through water without stopping to figures that begin their turn adjacent to her, your own units will have to stop adjacent to her (assuming the power isn't intended to be optional), even if they're squad figures or something else that doesn't need healing. Other units then wouldn't be able to move through them, since they would have to stop in the water. It may be fine just in our box of mostly heroes and wide-open cardboard mats, but Durnipia being best at hindering your own army's movement has the potential to be super frustrating.

NecroBlade
November 27th, 2020, 11:15 AM
@Strack9 you're awesome.

Some general thoughts on some of the points being discussed.

The only things we know about Durnipia from the lore is she's a healer and she's employed by Einar. There's no reason she couldn't have water-focused magic. The golden staff/armor are also very Einar (opulent). Any figure could of course be its own new thing, but there's also nothing that tells me this definitely isn't Durnipia.

I agree that +/- 5 levels seems like a bit much. I think the movement should be reworded to allow friendly figures to not have to stop in water adjacent to her, regardless of whether or no they started there. That would actually have the intended effect of helping your army while hindering your opponent's.

I thought (and hoped) we were moving in the "Marro Warrior" direction of any healing but a boost on water spaces. If we wanted to tie that in to the magic value of "6", how about 16+ with +10 on water? No strong feelings either way on being a self-healing healer, though I think Sonlen is the only other one currently.

I'd be OK with "Merfolk" here. Or we could take the Heroscape-y path of making up something similar (like Trolticor or Gryphillin).

Astroking112
November 27th, 2020, 04:15 PM
The only things we know about Durnipia from the lore is she's a healer and she's employed by Einar. There's no reason she couldn't have water-focused magic. The golden staff/armor are also very Einar (opulent). Any figure could of course be its own new thing, but there's also nothing that tells me this definitely isn't Durnipia.

I think that it's largely a "your mileage might vary" sort of thing, to be fair. To me, this feels like an excuse to throw in a reference, rather than a good reason to use up Durnipia, which makes it feel like a reference just for the sake of a reference. I'd much rather have this new character--who feels very much like an Aquillan unit--along with an eventual Durnipia design that feels more uniquely Einar. Aquilla in general is tied to water like Einar is to earth or Jandar to ice: those tropes can be bucked at times like with evil frost trolls in Utgar, but I think that those instances should have similarly strong justifications for why, and Durnipia being an obscure name from two official bios doesn't feel like enough to me.

This design can be called Durnipia for sure, but I don't think that necessarily means that it should be called Durnipia. Especially since we already have Katryn shaping up to be an Einar Icarian and the Pheonix brainstorming drafts have heavily leaned towards Einar, I think that we shouldn't try to force this draft into another Einar unit when Aquilla is unlikely to receive much love other than the upcoming Merfolk Roilmage sculpt. At the very least, if Pod 2 wants this design to be Durnipia, then I think that it should do something more with the character than feel like a fantasy merfolk healer straight out of Aquilla's troops (I was fond of the Sci-Fi alien transplant direction for Durnipia, for example, but that's inherently a redesign of a strong design that I don't think needs one). :2cents:

NecroBlade
November 28th, 2020, 02:09 PM
(I was fond of the Sci-Fi alien transplant direction for Durnipia, for example, but that's inherently a redesign of a strong design that I don't think needs one). :2cents:

Sci-Fi alien transplants can't have water magic? ;)

Anyway, you're absolutely right that it's a "your mileage might vary" sort of thing. We tend to approach these things from different sides and that's fine. I'll shut up about it unless I'm asked, and let Pod 2 do it's thing. (Which I've probably said before, but I'm also trying to balance keeping the discussion going and moving the project forward.)

Captain Stupendous
November 28th, 2020, 04:13 PM
Thanks everyone for all the feedback!

Personally I think the design still fits the feeling of Durnipia fairly well. Given that Durnipia is only briefly mentioned in two bios (10th Regiment of Foot and Valguard) and all we know is that she is "Einar's healer", as long as the design has a healing emphasis and fits well enough in Einar I think we're good. I understand the traditional association of water with Aquilla, but I don't think we can't see some other water based designs show up in other generals from time to time. I also think its helpful that the emphasis of the design is on healing, rather than water utility, as in many ways the water terraforming serves to increase her healing potential. Healing as a mechanic is also fairly rare in Heroscape, so any design with a healing focus will already stand out for that reason, which in my mind makes the association with Durnipia even easier to justify.

Also, I think at this point we're actually in more need of Einar designs than Aquilla to round out the set? According to my notes, we currently have two designs that have a strong possibility to end up as Aquilla (Arlinn Kord human form as a native american hero and the merfolk roilmage as an Aquilla elementar) and only two potential Einar designs (Durnipia and Katryn). I know early brainstorming had floated the Phoenixes as an Einar squad, but that was before Axentia had hit public playtesting. In the interests of making the set feel at home alongside c3v, I'd be hesitant to make the phoenixes anything other than Jandar to match Axentia.

As far as the species goes, I agree that Rusalka is perhaps a bit obscure, and that the more generic Nymph or Merfolk would probably be a slight improvement. Of the two I lean towards Nymph, if only because the Merfolk Roilmage looks just like a Merfolk but will probably end up being an Elementar or something else, and it would be a little strange for Durnipia to be a merfolk but not the Roilmage. For the class I'm open to suggestions, but thought perhaps "Lady" might work? Its kind of a reference to the 10th Regiment of Foots bio when one of the soldiers refers to her as "Madam Durnipia."

Regarding all the comments about the "Carried by Waves" power, how would people feel about this?

CARRIED BY WAVES V2.0
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space for the remainder of their turn.


Putting this all together gives us:

Durnipia
EINAR
Nymph
Unique Hero
Lady
Inscrutable
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 80 (probably could be increased to 90 or 100 now, given the increase in power of both abilities?)

Powers

CARRIED BY WAVES V2
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space for the remainder of their turn.

HEALING WATERS V2
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each other friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card. If that figure is on a water space, add 5 to your roll.

flameslayer93
November 28th, 2020, 05:39 PM
I still prefer Pheonixes under Einar because red on blue is absolutely hideous. :)