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flameslayer93
May 12th, 2020, 08:48 AM
The Book of Alabaster Sentinels

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567020339977257010/image0.jpg?width=814&height=610

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JANDAR
Alabaster Sentinels
Animata
Unique Squad
Sentinels
Loyal
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 1
MOVE 4
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 4

POINTS 60

Powers

FLESH TO STONE
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 2 to the Defense value of this card.

HEADLONG CHARGE
An Alabaster Sentinel can add 4 to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

The figures used for this unit are the Rhox Veterans from Arena of the Planeswalkers.

Bio



https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567020339977257010/image0.jpg?width=814&height=610

flameslayer93
May 12th, 2020, 09:15 AM
Here's my draft of these guys from the Pre-Brainstorming thread:


Rhinos of the Endless Desert

Jandar/Statues/Sentinels/Unique Squad/Dauntless/Medium 6

1 Life/3 Troops/4 Move/1 Range/2 Attack/4 Defense

Living Statues: If there are no revealed order markers on this Army Card, add 2 to the defense of this Army Card. If there are revealed order markers on this Army Card, add 1 to the move of this Army Card for every revealed Order Marker.

Desert Strength: Rhinos of the Endless Desert on a Sand space roll 1 additional combat die when attacking or defending.

70 points


I'll happily edit more in as I find them, but some sort of animated statues has been the general direction most scapers have been comfortable with. We don't have to give Avacyn the same statue powers as the Rhox, but I'll let that pod decide her fate.


I think probably the most important thing to ask ourselves about this design is what should the species actually be? That will tie these guys into whatever backstory, and may eventually result in c3v synergies.


Although my vision was for them (and Avacyn) to come from Valhalla, we can just easily say the statues are Animata from Arctorus or somewhere else, like D&D-land.


*Bold: I realized I never had a class in there lol.

Owlman
May 12th, 2020, 09:50 AM
I like the living statue thing, but since these guys are Rhino warriors, but I think they should have some type of automatic shield ability. Below is a draft I made weeks ago:

https://i.postimg.cc/P5dmQcrQ/Greyvox-Stone-Warriors.jpg

flameslayer93
May 12th, 2020, 10:18 AM
The tricky part with calling them anything but statues or some sort is that the figure (and its complete lack of paint) needs to match the design. Without any gray on them, or any sort of color other than monochrome beige, we are kind of stuck calling them statues. We are trying to design the set with as low of a cost of entry as possible, and one of those costs is in time investment. :)

Owlman
May 12th, 2020, 06:46 PM
Eh, I dunno, "Stone" in their name kinda helps with that me thinks! (Or perhaps something like "Greyvox Elemental's", or whatever...?)

What about "Stone Warriors of Lindesfarme"...? Or some other desert area of Valhalla!

NecroBlade
May 12th, 2020, 09:26 PM
I'd like to see some kind of "living statues" power that ties these and Avacyn together with a little bit of theme and a little bit of synergy. Here were a couple ideas:

LIVING STATUE POWER 1
After any turn, you may reveal your 'X' Order Marker on this card. While your 'X' Order Marker is revealed on a card with Living Stone, all figures you control with Living Stone add 3 to their Defense and cannot take turns.

This one is more direct synergy. Time it right and have your hero and squad create some bottlenecks and/or tank on a glyph.


LIVING STATUE POWER 2
At the start of each round after placing Order Markers, place a Shield Marker on this card for each Order Marker on it. Add 1 to [this]'s Defense for each Shield Marker on this card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card, flip a Shield Marker over to a Sword Marker. Add 1 to [this]'s Attack for each Sword Marker on this card. At the end of the round, remove all Shield and Sword Markers from this card.

This one is more of a thematic connection, since it's almost anti-synergy, since you only have 4 OMs and therefore 4 markers to go around. As an example, if their base stats were 1A/2D, with all 4 OMs the become 1/6 before revealing any. Revealing the 1 makes them 2/5; 2 = 3/4, 3 = 4/3. We would also only be using 4/5 of the shield/sword markers here, but that's not a problem if we want a single marker to use somewhere else.


On a related note, reusing the species Animata seems very appropriate.

Captain Stupendous
May 12th, 2020, 09:48 PM
Here's my draft of these guys from the Pre-Brainstorming thread:


Rhinos of the Endless Desert

Jandar/Statues/Sentinels/Unique Squad/Dauntless/Medium 6

1 Life/3 Troops/4 Move/1 Range/2 Attack/4 Defense

Living Statues: If there are no revealed order markers on this Army Card, add 2 to the defense of this Army Card. If there are revealed order markers on this Army Card, add 1 to the move of this Army Card for every revealed Order Marker.

Desert Strength: Rhinos of the Endless Desert on a Sand space roll 1 additional combat die when attacking or defending.

70 points


I'll happily edit more in as I find them, but some sort of animated statues has been the general direction most scapers have been comfortable with. We don't have to give Avacyn the same statue powers as the Rhox, but I'll let that pod decide her fate.


I think probably the most important thing to ask ourselves about this design is what should the species actually be? That will tie these guys into whatever backstory, and may eventually result in c3v synergies.


Although my vision was for them (and Avacyn) to come from Valhalla, we can just easily say the statues are Animata from Arctorus or somewhere else, like D&D-land.


*Bold: I realized I never had a class in there lol.

I definitely like this direction for the Rhox, although I think the Living Statues ability could possibly be improved slightly with the following tweak:

1 Life/3 Troops/6 Move/1 Range/2 Attack/4 Defense

Living Statues: If there are no unrevealed order markers on this Army Card, add 2 to the defense and subtract 2 from the movement of this Army Card. A Rhino cannot make a leaving engagement attack if there are no unrevealed order markers on this card.

It's fairly similar, with a couple key differences.

Obviously the LEA clause is completely new, but I think its good for thematic reasons.

The biggest difference is that this version encourages you to place your "1" on the Rhinos, whereas the previous version encouraged you to place the "3" on the rhinos. However, I think this wording might be a little easier to understand, as it's no longer necessary to check for two slightly different triggers ("If no revealed order markers" then "number of revealed order markers").

I'm still not personally a big fan of a sand-based bonus ability, although I wouldn't dismiss it outright.

Captain Stupendous
May 12th, 2020, 09:58 PM
I'd like to see some kind of "living statues" power that ties these and Avacyn together with a little bit of theme and a little bit of synergy. Here were a couple ideas:

LIVING STATUE POWER 1
After any turn, you may reveal your 'X' Order Marker on this card. While your 'X' Order Marker is revealed on a card with Living Stone, all figures you control with Living Stone add 3 to their Defense and cannot take turns.

This one is more direct synergy. Time it right and have your hero and squad create some bottlenecks and/or tank on a glyph.


LIVING STATUE POWER 2
At the start of each round after placing Order Markers, place a Shield Marker on this card for each Order Marker on it. Add 1 to [this]'s Defense for each Shield Marker on this card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card, flip a Shield Marker over to a Sword Marker. Add 1 to [this]'s Attack for each Sword Marker on this card. At the end of the round, remove all Shield and Sword Markers from this card.

This one is more of a thematic connection, since it's almost anti-synergy, since you only have 4 OMs and therefore 4 markers to go around. As an example, if their base stats were 1A/2D, with all 4 OMs the become 1/6 before revealing any. Revealing the 1 makes them 2/5; 2 = 3/4, 3 = 4/3. We would also only be using 4/5 of the shield/sword markers here, but that's not a problem if we want a single marker to use somewhere else.


On a related note, reusing the species Animata seems very appropriate.

Definitely agree that animata would be a good fit here as a species.

Of your other proposed abilities, I think I like the first one a bit better? It feels a little more like a "generic" ability that you would expect to see on multiple army cards, whereas the second one seems a little more specialized. I might slightly prefer this wording for the first ability:

LIVING STATUE POWER 1
After any turn, you may reveal your 'X' Order Marker on this card. While your 'X' Order Marker is revealed on a card with Living Stone, all figures you control with Living Stone add 3 to their Defense as long as they have no unrevealed order markers on their army cards.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2020, 08:08 AM
@NecroBlade (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=1508) , any reason why Avacyn and the Rhinos need to share a power? I get the Rhinos getting something like this (they'll likely only have 1 or two powers), but Avacyn will already have Flying (or something very similar). Giving her a power that only reflects her stone body sadly means we won't have room to really make her play differently from the Rhox. (We can give her a third power, but I personally feel that any third powers should be a bare bones as possible for simplicity within the MS... this isn't the C3G after all).

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 09:17 AM
Not a statue fan power fan, really. I think we need to do more outside the box thinking still, lol.

Elemental ability makes sense, and the Animata does too.

Confred
May 13th, 2020, 11:10 AM
Power name (lol)
Look Left, Look Right

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 12:14 PM
Or here's a longshot...what if we gave Nahiri figure the ability to summon these elemental animata things to the battlefield?

In addition to her flame sword ability, let her work some literal magic and summon these guys....?

Zetsubo
May 13th, 2020, 03:37 PM
Personally I like this statue power the best. It may be a bit wordy, but it doesn't seem overly complicated.

LIVING STATUE POWER 2
At the start of each round after placing Order Markers, place a Shield Marker on this card for each Order Marker on it. Add 1 to [this]'s Defense for each Shield Marker on this card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card, flip a Shield Marker over to a Sword Marker. Add 1 to [this]'s Attack for each Sword Marker on this card. At the end of the round, remove all Shield and Sword Markers from this card.


I don't think we should be trying to design Avacyn with the Rhox. Even if she becomes a statue as well, limiting her abilities to be in line with the Rhox cuts creativity for both units.

NecroBlade
May 13th, 2020, 10:06 PM
@NecroBlade (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=1508) , any reason why Avacyn and the Rhinos need to share a power? I get the Rhinos getting something like this (they'll likely only have 1 or two powers), but Avacyn will already have Flying (or something very similar). Giving her a power that only reflects her stone body sadly means we won't have room to really make her play differently from the Rhox. (We can give her a third power, but I personally feel that any third powers should be a bare bones as possible for simplicity within the MS... this isn't the C3G after all).

They're both statues and I figured it would be another way to introduce mild thematic and mechanical synergy to the set. But there's nothing wrong with 3-power cards either, as long as they're relatively simple (the-artist-formerly-known-as-Atrixus says hi).

Pumpkin_King
May 14th, 2020, 10:48 PM
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/296042826075209729/403611113469771787/FU_SHI.jpg

I did a stone power on a custom a while back. Similar to what we’re discussing.

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2020, 08:21 AM
Personally I like this statue power the best. It may be a bit wordy, but it doesn't seem overly complicated.

LIVING STATUE POWER 2
At the start of each round after placing Order Markers, place a Shield Marker on this card for each Order Marker on it. Add 1 to [this]'s Defense for each Shield Marker on this card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card, flip a Shield Marker over to a Sword Marker. Add 1 to [this]'s Attack for each Sword Marker on this card. At the end of the round, remove all Shield and Sword Markers from this card.



I'd be cool with this. We would need to make sure that stats are in line for them to have up to +4 attack (unless we limit it to 2-3) and -


Typing that out, I realized something wierd. Why would they have a ton of defense only when you have OMs on them, but when they are sleeping they only get barebones defense?


For example, let's say they have base 3 defense (because you can realistically get them to 7 defense with the proposed power). Well, if you aren't putting OMs on them, their defense stays at 3. But since their supposed to be made of stone, they should always have good defense especially when they're sleeping. Seems like a weird interaction to me.


Edit: I get you can drop the X on them for +1 defense, but that makes them only weaker in the long run...

Edit 2: You also don’t need Markers for this power, unless you just want them to be safe from OM removal powers.

Ericth74
May 16th, 2020, 11:17 AM
I'm not part of this pod, but I had this idea.

Move 4

Defense 4 or 5

For each revealed order marker on this card lower the defense by 1

You could add an x marker power too. If you reveal the X marker in this card, you may add 1/2 to its move. It could be for just the turn or for the rest of the round.

So in theory, the more usage the weaker it is. And its simple to understand.

Owlman
May 16th, 2020, 12:58 PM
What about since they are Rhino figures, (or at least animata/elementals/whatever they are) in the form/shape of rhinos, some kind of charging power is warranted. I like the throw back to the Kozuke power, and to my knowledge no other classic figure has that.

Any thoughts on that specifically?

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 02:54 PM
That’s why I gave my stone power regular defense after they’d “moved” - to signify them moving around “as normal” - and then auto shields when they hadn’t, to signify them turned to stone again. I think we can do this without having to count order markers or use the tokens.

I’d be into a charging power but we may want to differentiate it from the Kozuke.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2020, 06:04 PM
I'm not part of this pod, but I had this idea.

Move 4

Defense 4 or 5

For each revealed order marker on this card lower the defense by 1

So in theory, the more usage the weaker it is. And its simple to understand.
That's a great, simple take on the theme. I like it.

What about since they are Rhino figures, (or at least animata/elementals/whatever they are) in the form/shape of rhinos, some kind of charging power is warranted. I like the throw back to the Kozuke power, and to my knowledge no other classic figure has that.

Any thoughts on that specifically?
Kozuke's Charging Assault should never be used for anything ever. :p I'd go similar but simpler and different:

A [Rhox Veteran] can add 2 to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

capsocrates
May 18th, 2020, 06:47 PM
Personally I like this statue power the best. It may be a bit wordy, but it doesn't seem overly complicated.

LIVING STATUE POWER 2
At the start of each round after placing Order Markers, place a Shield Marker on this card for each Order Marker on it. Add 1 to [this]'s Defense for each Shield Marker on this card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card, flip a Shield Marker over to a Sword Marker. Add 1 to [this]'s Attack for each Sword Marker on this card. At the end of the round, remove all Shield and Sword Markers from this card.
I don't think we should be trying to design Avacyn with the Rhox. Even if she becomes a statue as well, limiting her abilities to be in line with the Rhox cuts creativity for both units.
I don't understand the point of the Shield and Sword markers. They seem identical to "unrevealed order markers" and "revealed order markers"respectively...


I'm not part of this pod, but I had this idea.

Move 4

Defense 4 or 5

For each revealed order marker on this card lower the defense by 1

So in theory, the more usage the weaker it is. And its simple to understand.
That's a great, simple take on the theme. I like it.
I also like it, for whatever it is worth.

What about since they are Rhino figures, (or at least animata/elementals/whatever they are) in the form/shape of rhinos, some kind of charging power is warranted. I like the throw back to the Kozuke power, and to my knowledge no other classic figure has that.

Any thoughts on that specifically?
Kozuke's Charging Assault should never be used for anything ever. :p I'd go similar but simpler and different:

A [Rhox Veteran] can add 2 to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.
I like that. That power will be hard to use so you could even do something dramatic like +4 move. Which would be cool if they are a 4-move squad.

Captain Stupendous
May 18th, 2020, 08:38 PM
I like a lot of the ideas being discussed! At this point, if I had to combine my favorites into a single design, I think it would look something like this (with the understanding that the specific stat values could be adjusted):

Rhox Veterans
1 Life / 4 Move / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 3 to the Defense value of this card.

Headlong Charge
A Rhox Veteran can add 4 to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

Owlman
May 19th, 2020, 11:19 AM
I like the above headlong charge, except i'd word it so they have to end their movement adjacent to an opposing figure to add 3/4 movement.

Also, I think they should have 3 move +4 or 4 movement +3. 8 movement seems a little much to me.

Instead of a 6 defense, what about 4 defense and they get 2 automatic shields against normal attacks if they have no unrevealed OM's? I'm still getting "Tough" vibes from these guys.

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2020, 11:22 AM
2 autoshields against 80% of the game just means they are nigh unkillable. I'd rather 1 autoshield or simply +defense.

Personally I prefer base 4 move and +3 move from "Headlong Charge". Not a fan of requiring engagement... that just makes them Kozukes.

capsocrates
May 19th, 2020, 11:52 AM
The +4 move was because it will be hard for them to actually end a straight-line movement adjacent to someone--so might as well make it a lot of movement. There are many maps where terrain blockers will get in the way and they won't even be able to use the full +4. I think 4 +4 move is fine.

I agree that requiring ending engaged reduces the originality. It also makes it even harder to use.

Zetsubo
May 19th, 2020, 03:39 PM
Since charging is an aggressive move, what about adding a slight attack boost incase they do end up adjacent to someone after a straight line charge?


Typing that out, I realized something weird. Why would they have a ton of defense only when you have OMs on them, but when they are sleeping they only get barebones defense?

Now that its pointed out, yeah that does seem weird.

That makes me wonder, are we wanting the rhinos to be living beings that can turn to stone for defense, or are they actual statues walking around? If they are always statues, then why would their defense be temporary? Stone is still strong even if it happens to be moving. Augamo is also essentially a stone statue that moves and it has an always active defense.

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2020, 09:39 PM
Excellent point Zetsubo.

Then would this work?

Rhox
-blah blah blah

3 troops 4 move 1 range 3 attack 5 defense

Headlong Charge: +3/4 move if they move in a straight line

Captain Stupendous
May 19th, 2020, 09:50 PM
Excellent point Zetsubo.

Then would this work?

Rhox
-blah blah blah

3 troops 4 move 1 range 3 attack 5 defense

Headlong Charge: +3/4 move if they move in a straight line

I think that would work, even if it is a little less interesting than some other powers that have been suggested. I think deciding on what theme we want to represent (either the living beings that turn to stone, or actual walking statues) is important to move forward. My slight preference would be that they are living rhinos that can magically turn to stone in order to boost their defense. That way we can still thematically keep the second power:

Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 3 to the Defense value of this card.

However, I wouldn't oppose the other thematic direction that they are always statues if that's what enough others wanted.

Owlman
May 20th, 2020, 03:00 PM
Excellent point Zetsubo.

Then would this work?

Rhox
-blah blah blah

3 troops 4 move 1 range 3 attack 5 defense

Headlong Charge: +3/4 move if they move in a straight line

I like this, except I'd like to see a 3 movement instead of 4. Not a huge deal, but if everyone wants em to be statues living stone is pretty slow. (Granite Guardians are waving at ya! lol) :P

Pumpkin_King
May 20th, 2020, 04:28 PM
The Granites effectively have 4 move because of their power. It'll be much harder for the Rhox to activate their power, so I think 4 to compensate is probably fine.

Pumpkin_King
May 20th, 2020, 04:30 PM
Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 3 to the Defense value of this card.However, I wouldn't oppose the other thematic direction that they are always statues if that's what enough others wanted.
I also like this a lot. I think you can still justify it by saying the stone hardens or softens based on if they move or not. This version is nice and simple.

capsocrates
May 22nd, 2020, 10:50 PM
I also very much like the Flesh to Stone power in post 28

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:31 AM
Here's my draft of these guys from the Pre-Brainstorming thread:


Rhinos of the Endless Desert

Jandar/Statues/Sentinels/Unique Squad/Dauntless/Medium 6

1 Life/3 Troops/4 Move/1 Range/2 Attack/4 Defense

Living Statues: If there are no revealed order markers on this Army Card, add 2 to the defense of this Army Card. If there are revealed order markers on this Army Card, add 1 to the move of this Army Card for every revealed Order Marker.

Desert Strength: Rhinos of the Endless Desert on a Sand space roll 1 additional combat die when attacking or defending.

70 points


I'll happily edit more in as I find them, but some sort of animated statues has been the general direction most scapers have been comfortable with. We don't have to give Avacyn the same statue powers as the Rhox, but I'll let that pod decide her fate.


I think probably the most important thing to ask ourselves about this design is what should the species actually be? That will tie these guys into whatever backstory, and may eventually result in c3v synergies.


Although my vision was for them (and Avacyn) to come from Valhalla, we can just easily say the statues are Animata from Arctorus or somewhere else, like D&D-land.


*Bold: I realized I never had a class in there lol.

Ooh, this is not what I imagined at all, but I like it.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:33 AM
I like the living statue thing, but since these guys are Rhino warriors, but I think they should have some type of automatic shield ability. Below is a draft I made weeks ago:

https://i.postimg.cc/P5dmQcrQ/Greyvox-Stone-Warriors.jpg

I wouldn't want two defense powers on the same card.

I'd also prefer to stay away from Greyvox as a type.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:34 AM
The tricky part with calling them anything but statues or some sort is that the figure (and its complete lack of paint) needs to match the design. Without any gray on them, or any sort of color other than monochrome beige, we are kind of stuck calling them statues. We are trying to design the set with as low of a cost of entry as possible, and one of those costs is in time investment. :)

What is the official word on this for all figures in this project? Will we be able to paint figures and create a painting guide?

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:40 AM
I'd like to see some kind of "living statues" power that ties these and Avacyn together with a little bit of theme and a little bit of synergy. Here were a couple ideas:

LIVING STATUE POWER 1
After any turn, you may reveal your 'X' Order Marker on this card. While your 'X' Order Marker is revealed on a card with Living Stone, all figures you control with Living Stone add 3 to their Defense and cannot take turns.

This one is more direct synergy. Time it right and have your hero and squad create some bottlenecks and/or tank on a glyph.


LIVING STATUE POWER 2
At the start of each round after placing Order Markers, place a Shield Marker on this card for each Order Marker on it. Add 1 to [this]'s Defense for each Shield Marker on this card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card, flip a Shield Marker over to a Sword Marker. Add 1 to [this]'s Attack for each Sword Marker on this card. At the end of the round, remove all Shield and Sword Markers from this card.

This one is more of a thematic connection, since it's almost anti-synergy, since you only have 4 OMs and therefore 4 markers to go around. As an example, if their base stats were 1A/2D, with all 4 OMs the become 1/6 before revealing any. Revealing the 1 makes them 2/5; 2 = 3/4, 3 = 4/3. We would also only be using 4/5 of the shield/sword markers here, but that's not a problem if we want a single marker to use somewhere else.


On a related note, reusing the species Animata seems very appropriate.

I like the idea of a statue synergy. I haven't yet seen Avacyn, is she Animata - or what has that species type?
Statue as a type makes sense otherwise - or even Object ;)

Power 2 here is more wonky than I would like.


POWER IDEA
Members of this squad add 1 to their Attack and subtract 1 from their Defense for each revealed order marker on their Army Card.

Attack 0
Defense 6

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:43 AM
@NecroBlade (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=1508) , any reason why Avacyn and the Rhinos need to share a power? I get the Rhinos getting something like this (they'll likely only have 1 or two powers), but Avacyn will already have Flying (or something very similar). Giving her a power that only reflects her stone body sadly means we won't have room to really make her play differently from the Rhox. (We can give her a third power, but I personally feel that any third powers should be a bare bones as possible for simplicity within the MS... this isn't the C3G after all).

From what I'm gathering, Avacyn in this project is an animated statue.
It makes sense then that animated statues work as a tribe - like that one Marines commercial with the chess pieces.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:46 AM
Or here's a longshot...what if we gave Nahiri figure the ability to summon these elemental animata things to the battlefield?

In addition to her flame sword ability, let her work some literal magic and summon these guys....?

I'd prefer elementals to look like elementals.

Statues are good for these due to their otherwise awkward posturing.

with Nahiri, there's very little visual cues to tie them. She's the sword, they're the shield?

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:50 AM
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/296042826075209729/403611113469771787/FU_SHI.jpg

I did a stone power on a custom a while back. Similar to what were discussing.

What's neat here is instead of being tough with no power, it's literally reversed.

What if these had a totem effect:


POWER 1
If there are no order markers on this card, adjacent friendly figures add 1 to their Defense.

POWER 2
Members of this squad add 1 to their Attack for each order marker on this card.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:59 AM
I like the above headlong charge, except i'd word it so they have to end their movement adjacent to an opposing figure to add 3/4 movement.

Also, I think they should have 3 move +4 or 4 movement +3. 8 movement seems a little much to me.

Instead of a 6 defense, what about 4 defense and they get 2 automatic shields against normal attacks if they have no unrevealed OM's? I'm still getting "Tough" vibes from these guys.

What if the charge risked their toughness entirely and it was like Wolves of Badru.


AWOKEN CHARGE POWER SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 4 special. Attack 4.
Choose 4 spaces in a straight line from this figure. Roll Attack dice once. The closest figure on the line rolls defense dice. If it's destroyed, immediately place this figure on its space. If it's not destroyed, destroy this figure. Continue doing this for the closest figure on the line or until there are no figures on the line. If there are no other figures on the line, move this figure to the end of the line.
I realize that's dang wordy, but somebody smarter than me could probably chop it down and clean it up.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 11:00 AM
The +4 move was because it will be hard for them to actually end a straight-line movement adjacent to someone--so might as well make it a lot of movement. There are many maps where terrain blockers will get in the way and they won't even be able to use the full +4. I think 4 +4 move is fine.

I agree that requiring ending engaged reduces the originality. It also makes it even harder to use.

I like this idea of instead of the requirement being engagement, be straight line. The idea evokes momentum.

Astroking112
May 23rd, 2020, 11:44 AM
The tricky part with calling them anything but statues or some sort is that the figure (and its complete lack of paint) needs to match the design. Without any gray on them, or any sort of color other than monochrome beige, we are kind of stuck calling them statues. We are trying to design the set with as low of a cost of entry as possible, and one of those costs is in time investment. :)

What is the official word on this for all figures in this project? Will we be able to paint figures and create a painting guide?

None of the figures in the core set (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2282737&postcount=2) should require any painting. These units were all identified and added to the Master Set with the intent that they can be justified without any paint--much like the elementals in Classic HeroScape or the recent shadow faction in SoV.

There have been some people interested in designing extra cards for the remaining units that we couldn't justify being unpainted, but that is outside the scope of this project (at least until the entire main box is completed). For these guys, please assume that they will remain unpainted.

capsocrates
May 23rd, 2020, 03:11 PM
I'm hoping we'll do a wash for card pictures

Pumpkin_King
May 26th, 2020, 10:54 PM
Just to make my vision for this clear, I feel like these guys should be Jandar and Animata. I think we should go ahead with the power in post 28 (I’d quote it but I’m phone posting). I think an attack aura would be interesting but we should probably ease up on synergy right th t now and just make a beat stick melee unique squad. For that purpose I like the various Charge powers. Can someone whip one up based on previous versions?

Captain Stupendous
May 26th, 2020, 11:34 PM
Just to make my vision for this clear, I feel like these guys should be Jandar and Animata. I think we should go ahead with the power in post 28 (Id quote it but Im phone posting). I think an attack aura would be interesting but we should probably ease up on synergy right th t now and just make a beat stick melee unique squad. For that purpose I like the various Charge powers. Can someone whip one up based on previous versions?

As far as powers go, this is the direction I would prefer as well. That would give us something looking like:

Stoneskin Sentinels
1 Life / ?4? Move / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 3 to the Defense value of this card.

Headlong Charge
A Stoneskin Sentinel can add ?4? to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

Given the way the defensive power works, I would slightly prefer the left-side box and bio to suggest a race of rhino-like creatures who can magically turn to stone at will, rather than animated statues. If they're always statues, it doesn't make as much sense to me why they'd be harder to kill just because they're standing still. However, this isn't a point that I feel overly strongly about and could probably be persuaded either way.

Pumpkin_King
May 27th, 2020, 01:45 AM
I think there's precedent for, say, a gargoyle who can harden its skin but is always a statue.

Captain Stupendous
May 28th, 2020, 09:31 PM
That's fair I suppose. I guess I just feel like if it could go either way, why not choose the thematic explanation that more closely reflects how the ability works?

I know we're allllllllmost there, but I figured that if we did want to go the "always a statue, just sometimes doesn't move" route, I thought of another ability and statline that could be fun. I'm not necessarily convinced its better than what we already have, but that's what brainstorming is for :)

Stoneskin Sentinels
4 Move / 1 Range / 4 Attack / 6 Defense

LIVING STATUES
At the start of each round, before placing order markers, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-8? you may not take a turn with the Stoneskin Sentinels this round.

HEADLONG CHARGE
A Stoneskin Sentinel can add ?4? to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

I think they'd be very swingy, but also very unique and fun to play. Also interesting in that they've got crazy good stats for a melee squad, but that's kinda justified because I don't think you'd want to send them into engagement without some support of some kind.

Confred
June 3rd, 2020, 12:52 AM
Just to make my vision for this clear, I feel like these guys should be Jandar and Animata. I think we should go ahead with the power in post 28 (Id quote it but Im phone posting). I think an attack aura would be interesting but we should probably ease up on synergy right th t now and just make a beat stick melee unique squad. For that purpose I like the various Charge powers. Can someone whip one up based on previous versions?

As far as powers go, this is the direction I would prefer as well. That would give us something looking like:

Stoneskin Sentinels
1 Life / ?4? Move / 3 Attack / 3 Defense

Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 3 to the Defense value of this card.

Headlong Charge
A Stoneskin Sentinel can add ?4? to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

Given the way the defensive power works, I would slightly prefer the left-side box and bio to suggest a race of rhino-like creatures who can magically turn to stone at will, rather than animated statues. If they're always statues, it doesn't make as much sense to me why they'd be harder to kill just because they're standing still. However, this isn't a point that I feel overly strongly about and could probably be persuaded either way.

I like the simplicity of the two powers

Pumpkin_King
June 9th, 2020, 09:45 PM
Cool. If no one object we'll move forward with that?

Captain Stupendous
June 11th, 2020, 11:20 PM
I'm in favor of moving forward with the Flesh to Stone/Headlong Charge design proposed above.

The only thing I'm questioning at this point is whether it would be a better design with 4 base defense and just +2 defense if there's no revealed OMs. With the +3 bonus, I somewhat wonder whether these guys will ever see anything other than OM #3. Lowering the number of bonus defense dice could potentially add some more tension to that decision. However, this is something I'm currently undecided about and think that playtesting will be very beneficial in determining the sweet spot for the base defense and buff values.

Confred
June 13th, 2020, 02:57 PM
I'm in favor of moving forward with the Flesh to Stone/Headlong Charge design proposed above.

The only thing I'm questioning at this point is whether it would be a better design with 4 base defense and just +2 defense if there's no revealed OMs. With the +3 bonus, I somewhat wonder whether these guys will ever see anything other than OM #3. Lowering the number of bonus defense dice could potentially add some more tension to that decision. However, this is something I'm currently undecided about and think that playtesting will be very beneficial in determining the sweet spot for the base defense and buff values.

I'm okay with base Defense 4, a Tarn Viking Warriors alternative

Zetsubo
June 17th, 2020, 05:38 AM
I'm fine with Flesh to Stone/Headlong Charge combo as well. I'd definitely give them base 4 defense. That makes them tough enough to use before OM3. I kind of like the idea of keeping the +3 defense for a total of 7. It definitely gives the impenetrable stone feeling, but that may be a bit too much.

Pumpkin_King
June 17th, 2020, 04:32 PM
Let's try a draft.

===============
Alabaster Sentinels (Whitehall Sentinels?)

Jandar

Animata
U. Squad
Sentinels
Loyal

1/4/1/4/4

Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 3 to the Defense value of this card.

Headlong Charge
An Alabaster Sentinel can add 4 to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

Captain Stupendous
June 17th, 2020, 07:52 PM
Let's try a draft.

===============
Alabaster Sentinels (Whitehall Sentinels?)

Jandar

Animata
U. Squad
Sentinels
Loyal

1/4/1/4/4

Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 3 to the Defense value of this card.

Headlong Charge
An Alabaster Sentinel can add 4 to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

I think this is a strong draft. Regardless of whether their base defense is 3 or 4, I do wonder whether the +3 bonus from Flesh to Stone is too great to ever pass up and would make OM placement decisions less difficult than if it only gave a +2 bonus. However, I'd be happy to take the +3 bonus version into testing, and then consider lowering it to +2 if it seems like its never a good idea to put anything but OM #3 on them.

I'm also a little hesitant to give them 4 attack? Four attack melee squads occupy kind of an elite tier of units currently, and I'm not sure these guys necessarily warrant the same offensive potential as the Northern Wind or Varkaanan Darkclaws. However, this isn't a major issue for me and I won't oppose the direction if that's what the group prefers.

Personally I like the alliteration and theme conveyed by the name "Stoneskin Sentinels" best, but I also think that "Alabaster Sentinels" works well too. I don't care as much for "Whitehall Sentinels."

Lastly, I'm guessing we're all okay then with giving them Concan synergy by making them sentinels? It's something that kind of snuck in there when I first made them sentinels in my draft above, but I don't think we ever explicitly talked about it.

Pumpkin_King
June 17th, 2020, 08:33 PM
Yeah, I think Sentinels synergy is fine.

We can try them at 3 A&D, especially seeing as how we need to diversify power levels.

Anyone want to chime in on decisions here?

flameslayer93
June 19th, 2020, 03:10 PM
I massively prefer 3A here. If we want 4D, I’d make Flesh to Stone only give +2D. 4D does make sense, since they are wearing some armor too.

Captain Stupendous
June 21st, 2020, 03:32 PM
I massively prefer 3A here. If we want 4D, I’d make Flesh to Stone only give +2D. 4D does make sense, since they are wearing some armor too.

So, with these changes a potential draft could look like this:

Alabaster Sentinels (Stoneskin Sentinels?)

Jandar

Animata
U. Squad
Sentinels
Loyal

1/4/1/3/4

Flesh to Stone
If there are no revealed order markers on this card, add 2 to the Defense value of this card.

Headlong Charge
An Alabaster Sentinel can add 4 to its Move if it only moves in a straight line this turn.

I'm not sure I'm sold on "Loyal" as the personality for these guys, but thats arguably the most minor element on the card. Other than that, this is my favorite version that we've had so far. Although I could easily be persuaded to have these guys enter testing with a drop to their Defense to 3 and make Flesh to Stone add 3 Defense instead of 2.

flameslayer93
June 21st, 2020, 05:03 PM
Thats a good draft. :up:

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2020, 03:35 PM
I'm absolutely good with that draft. Flame, can you throw that in the OP?

I'd like to hear name ideas. "Alabaster Sentinel" was something off the top of my head. Remember that the name will speak to the lore of the unit.

flameslayer93
June 27th, 2020, 07:49 PM
OP updated. I've set their tentative cost to 60, because even though they are sometimes tough and sometimes fast, they are seldom both at once. So, 3 attacks of 3 from a unique squad can't be too far off from 60 I'd reckon.

Pumpkin_King
June 29th, 2020, 04:29 PM
Alabaster has an e. Looks really good. I like this.

Captain Stupendous
July 25th, 2020, 06:19 PM
I really like where these guys are at right now (aside from the typo in the book name as mentioned above).

@Flameslayer Pumpkin_King at what point do you think we can call a vote for editing?

Pumpkin_King
July 28th, 2020, 07:32 PM
I think we can do that now. All in favor of editing? :up:

flameslayer93
July 29th, 2020, 02:48 AM
:up: to editing.

Captain Stupendous
July 29th, 2020, 09:44 AM
That's a :up: from me for Editing.

flameslayer93
August 1st, 2020, 08:14 AM
@Amarant (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=10927) @Zetsubo (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=46818) @Confred (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=4571)

Gentlemen, does the design in the OP look like its ready to go?

Pumpkin_King
October 25th, 2020, 06:31 PM
Okay, these have sat for a while - in the meantime our system has changed so I'm going to call a vote for moving them to public feedback. :up:

We can redo an editing vote later on.

Captain Stupendous
October 25th, 2020, 06:36 PM
:up:from me to move these guys on to Public Feedback.

Pumpkin_King
November 8th, 2020, 06:49 PM
Calling it. We're in public feedback. Change the thread title please flame.

Pumpkin_King
November 8th, 2020, 08:18 PM
It is time to welcome public feedback on this thread! We're always open to feedback, but this is when we specifically are asking you for your opinion on a unit! We're interested in getting outsider thoughts on the unit in the main post of this thread so that we can catch any potential errors and make the most polished units possible.

We do ask that all commenters keep in mind the core goals of the AotV project when giving their feedback. For reference, they are:

1. To be compatible with Classic/Official Heroscape, and completely VC-compliant: that is, designing with C3V and SoV figures in mind, and focusing on the AOTP figures that would be acceptable to SoV (figures that are pre-painted or usable without paint).

2. To provide an affordable and user-friendly entry point to both new and returning players, that captures the feel of a true Master Set.

3. To create balanced units that are relatively simple, easy to understand, and feel at home in a self-contained set together. Units will come from a wide range of themes, and capture the diversity of theme Heroscape is beloved for.


These tenants of the project are important cornerstones for each design. Although other units can be very complex or otherwise rely on other units that they were not packaged with, that is not within the scope of this project.

Each unit should be interesting when compared only against the rest of AotV; they should still be exciting when taken out of the box, but we are assuming that this is an entry-level product for the game. Think of the original Rise of the Valkyrie Master Set, before any expansions were added, and when all of the units were just standalone unique characters.

That said, we welcome your feedback now, and we'd love to hear what you think about this unit! The Public Feedback Phase in this thread will end on 11/22/20, unless otherwise noted.

Captain Stupendous
November 11th, 2020, 11:54 AM
I'm really happy with where this design has ended up mechanically, but as I was looking over the OP again there were a couple things that stood out to me as having the potential for improvement thematically.

First, I'm not 100% sold on the "loyal" personality for this unit. I think the "resolute" personality would be a better fit for the design's playstyle.

Second, I think that there's a bit of a thematic disconnect between the name "Alabaster Sentinels", their species as "Animata", and their power name "Flesh to Stone." The cards name and species implies that these warriors are literally animated statues that retain their statue-like characteristics. Based on this, I don't see how a reference to "flesh" can be justified in their power name, since "flesh" is a strange term to use when referring to an animated statue. I think that if we keep the name of the card and species the same, a better name for the power might be something like "Stone Form" or "Statue Form".

However, I think my preferred solution would be to move away from the theme of them being animated statues, and instead thematically portray them as a special race of creatures with the ability to magically turn their flesh to stone. As far as the card design goes, this would just involve changing their name and species. I would propose the card name of "Stoneskin Sentinels", which conveys this theme well and has some nice alliteration, along with a made up species name. Something like "Rhinvorian" could work well.

If we went in this direction, I think it would be cool if their planet was Valhalla and their bio portrayed them as native inhabitants of the Sea of Sand (the desert region in Valhalla that has been suggested as the setting for this Master Set's campaign). Along these lines I've drafted a short preliminary bio, mainly as a means of fleshing out the idea in my own head, but I'll share it here as well:

Born with the magical ability to turn their flesh to stone, the long-lived members of the Rhinvorian Tribe experience the passage of time differently than any other race on Valhalla. Some warriors have been known to stay in their “stoneskin” form for months or even years at a time, seeming for all appearances to be lifeless statues. Thus these silent sentinels maintain their patient vigil over the Sea of Sand, impervious to the harsh conditions of the vast desert, yet ready at all times to take action should their homeland be threatened.

flameslayer93
November 11th, 2020, 02:14 PM
I think I originally wanted these guys and Avacyn to be from Valhalla, so there is that.

I still prefer them as statues, in some version or another, to keep the races the same. While having 2 separate races does indeed give new players more flavor, it also begs a question. "Why do these two fairly similar things have the same race?" It's all but certain that the space shrimps will Voidspawn to match their big brother Ozuul, and the Shadow Zombies/Hulks will be the same race as each other. I see no reason to create 2 new races for something simpler like this.

Captain Stupendous
November 11th, 2020, 04:14 PM
I think I originally wanted these guys and Avacyn to be from Valhalla, so there is that.

I still prefer them as statues, in some version or another, to keep the races the same. While having 2 separate races does indeed give new players more flavor, it also begs a question. "Why do these two fairly similar things have the same race?" It's all but certain that the space shrimps will Voidspawn to match their big brother Ozuul, and the Shadow Zombies/Hulks will be the same race as each other. I see no reason to create 2 new races for something simpler like this.

I think you meant to say "Why DON'T these two fairly similar things have the same race"? If so, I think that's a valid point. I just think that the advantages to making them different races outweigh the disadvantages. I also don't think that there's nearly as many similarities between the Rhox and Avacyn as there are between the zombies and hulks. Mainly, I think its harder to justify the existence of animata on Valhalla, especially native to the Sea of Sand. So far, both animata designs hail from Arctorus (Sentinels of Grax and Ebon Armor), with the bio for the Ebon Armor (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=50547) going into a decent amount of detail regarding the history of the animata as a race (not to say that other animata COULDN'T appear on other planets). Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense for the Rhox Veterans to be a race of Stoneskin Sentinels from the Sea of Sand, and for Avacyn to be an animata from Arctorus, maybe even another creation of Lord Perjamarine along with a bio to further explore that family?

Pumpkin_King
November 23rd, 2020, 02:57 PM
I'm fairly against the idea of these guys as anything but Animata. If they're normally "fleshy" the solid white doesn't work. I think we can absolutely say they're from the Sea of Sand - animated statues from a civilization long past that's buried in the desert.

I'm extending this a week.

Astroking112
November 27th, 2020, 03:54 PM
I love Headlong Charge. It feels both new and simple in a really great way that captures the essence of a charging rhino. It might not be terribly useful in practice, but I think that it's a great fit here.

I agree with Pumpkin_King that these guys should thematically always be living statues (or however else the Pod wishes to justify the opaque white of the minis). Saying that they're only made of stone when frozen doesn't really work well with them being unpainted, IMO: if they can simply turn themselves to stone when they feel like it, then it feels like classic HeroScape would've still painted the minis to me. I have no problem with expanding the world of Valhalla to include native Animata, either (or heck, we can say that someone summoned Lord Perjamarine and is creating new animata on Valhalla if we want to).

I'm curious if 5 base defense might be more interesting here. We could use some more variety in stats, and that could more firmly cement their role as defenders. It might involve a price bump in that case, though.

Name aside, I also like Flesh to Stone. I'm not convinced it's going to need to stay (the Templar Cavalry's Galloping Charge or some variant, for example, could play off of Headlong Charge quite well, albeit that leans away from the defender angle), but it feels fine and I really like how we have a cheap and simple melee squad here. Nice work, Pod 2. :)

Captain Stupendous
November 28th, 2020, 12:12 AM
It looks like team "Animata" wins this round :) In that case, do we have any other ideas for alternate names besides "Flesh to Stone"? I think either "Stone Form" or "Statue Form" could convey the theme we're going for.

Also, how do we all feel about changing the personality from "loyal" to "resolute"?

Astroking112
November 28th, 2020, 02:53 AM
Stone Form, Statue Form, or even Stone Flesh all sound good to me. If I remember correctly, NecroBlade had a drafted power in the Pre-Brainstorming Thread called "Living Stone." That name also sounds good to me, albeit it's perhaps a little more vague in why they get a conditional defense bonus.

Resolute feels like a good fit here. I don't particularly mind Loyal, but Resolute has a certain appeal considering their status as stone sentinels.