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Pumpkin_King
May 11th, 2020, 05:59 PM
The Book of Katryn Vade

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019268869324833/image0.jpg?width=226&height=301

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Icarian
Unique Hero
Champion
Devoted
Medium 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 5 / BASIC
RANGE 1 / BASIC
ATTACK 5 / BASIC
DEFENSE 3 / BASIC

140 POINTS

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn Vade, if there is an adjacent friendly Unique Hero, she may attack one additional time with her normal attack.

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size as Huge instead of what is on this card.

The figure used for this unit is


Character Bio:


-Rulings and Clarifications-
TBA

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA


https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019268869324833/image0.jpg?width=226&height=301[/QUOTE]

Owlman
May 11th, 2020, 11:30 PM
Initial thoughts:

https://i.postimg.cc/MZgqyn1b/Nahiri.jpg

She is fairly character-centric, like her Magic bio, and folks may wanna change that, but I'm a big fan of utilizing thos beige single space sand like tiles that come w/the set, since they are such a unique color compared to other Scape tiles. Thoughts?? :)

Zetsubo
May 12th, 2020, 03:11 AM
Terrain changing abilities are very fun and cool, but there isn't enough terrain from the sets to put aside for her. Unfortunately I'd have to disagree with placing tiles.

She has a very prominent glowing sword that I think would be a crime not to incorporate into an ability. Other than a magic sword, I'm not sure on what theme to go with for her mini. Perhaps she could be more of a combat focused unit, or a 'Joan of Arc' like cheerleader raising her flaming sword

Owlman
May 12th, 2020, 10:00 AM
I think it's important to ask ourselves, what's the purpose of designing these figures for primarily? If it's for new players to mainly try to get them interested in the game, then I can see why it may not be so great to incorporate terrain into characters, but if it's for the heroscape community mostly, I don't see why not. (Especially say a person doesn't have enough sand terrain in this case, it will encourage them to go buy or trade for more, which is what we want, more heroscapers! ;) )

Regardless, if everyone's dead set against, I'll make another card today which involves her flaming sword. (Hope no one minds, I like utilizing the card layout so we get a clear picture and feel for a character.)

Captain Stupendous
May 12th, 2020, 08:10 PM
Based on our mission statement, our primary goals are three-fold:

1. To be compatible with Classic/Official Heroscape, and completely VC-compliant: that is, designing with C3V and SoV figures in mind, and focusing on the AOTP figures that would be acceptable to SoV (figures that are pre-painted or usable without paint).


2. To provide an affordable and user-friendly entry point to both new and returning players, that captures the feel of a true Master Set.


3. To create balanced units that are relatively simple, easy to understand, and feel at home in a self-contained set together. Units will come from a wide range of themes, and capture the diversity of theme Heroscape is beloved for.

I echo other people's concerns about Nahiri placing terrain tiles. Personally, I would love to see this figure as an Icarian of some kind. Below is a draft I came up with for an Icarian warrior who is a faithful subject of Zelrig.

Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defence dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.

DRAGONHEART BLADE
Whenever Katryn would be affected by a special ability or special attack, you may choose to treat her size as Huge instead of Medium.

I've also drafted a short unpolished bio for her to further explain her theme. Note that this figure draws heavily upon the lore surrounding the classic Heroscape dragons, especially the bios for Nilfheim (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8115) and Zelrig (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19517).

For generations, the men of the eastern Icarian clans have paid yearly tribute to the great Dragon Emperor Zelrig, offering their most prized possessions as expressions of gratitude to their lord and protector. Yet, in over a thousand years, only one most unlikely person has ever been honored with a gift in return.

When the Nhah-Scirh attacked, Zelrig’s life was saved by a young warrior, Katryn Vade. Her sacrificial choice that day inspired Zelrig to entrust her with the Dragonheart Blade, a sword forged from the blood of his own wounds. In battle, it is said that this weapon blazes with the flame of the Dragon Emperor himself, allowing Katryn to summon a column of fire which consumes her enemies.

When Katryn Vade chose to save her Emperor, she lost her family.
Now, with the Dragon Emperor's blessing, Katryn lives to avenge them.


Of course this is just one of many possible directions we could go with her. At this point I think just discussing a lot of potential ideas is good as we get a feel for where we want to take this figure.

NecroBlade
May 12th, 2020, 09:05 PM
That's a neat way to incorporate the her into the lore and the lore into her sword. Kinda cool, actually, to have a non-Valkrill Icarian, too.

I, too, would love to see more terrain-manipulating powers, but unfortunately I agree this probably isn't the place for it. Maybe one single sand hex that a figure can place and get back every round or something like that, but this might also not even end up being the figure for such a design. While it's fine to draw inspiration from the AotP units, they are by no means a guiding light.

All Your Pie
May 13th, 2020, 02:14 AM
I think the powerset could use tweaking, but Iím very excited by the Icarian angle for Nahiri. The majestic fires connection is tough, though, because itís going to be odd that it works against unique squads when Zelrigís doesnít. Still, I think itís on a very good track.

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 11:05 AM
I think the powerset could use tweaking, but Iím very excited by the Icarian angle for Nahiri. The majestic fires connection is tough, though, because itís going to be odd that it works against unique squads when Zelrigís doesnít. Still, I think itís on a very good track.

Same here, the Icarian angle is cool!

Still not sure why incorporating the natural hexes into her powerset is a bad idea, since lets be honest, the vast majority of people using these customs will more than likely have plenty of terrain to work with, IMO. The 2 single space beige hexes shouldn't be an issue.

Is everyone deadset against it tho? If so I won't bring it up again.


I'm all for using her flaming sword special tho! Makes sense :)

Like this:

Karina Vade, Emperorís Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.

Wielder of theDRAGONHEART BLADE
Whenever Karina Vade would be affected by a special ability or special attack, you may choose to treat her size as Huge instead of Medium.

Suggested changes in bold!

Confred
May 13th, 2020, 11:07 AM
The two things that stand out to me are her white skin and her large blade. I wonder what she would look like as a Vampire figure

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 12:02 PM
The two things that stand out to me are her white skin and her large blade. I wonder what she would look like as a Vampire figure

Oooh, don't get my hopes up! (I'm a huge vampire fan if you couldn't tell lol)

:roll::D

I'm down for either a vampire or Icarian, Icarian for her seems pretty neat tho.

Zetsubo
May 13th, 2020, 02:08 PM
I think making her an Icarian servent to Zelrig is a great idea! What about instead of reducing defense rolled, Majestic Inferno SA prevented those affected from gaining any defensive buffs from special abilities?


MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. (Squad) figures may not roll additional defense dice due to any special power or add automatic shields to their roll when affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack.


Ozuul already has a SA that affects all figures adjacent to him. Should we change the affected area to figures adjacent to the attacked figure, or only 2/3 figures adjacent to the attacked figure?

Dragonheart Blade is pretty cool mechanically, but I'm not sure how that would work thematically. It would make her a interesting counter to Ozuul's gravity pull.

Astroking112
May 13th, 2020, 02:46 PM
Katryn Vade, Emperorís Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defence dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.

DRAGONHEART BLADE
Whenever Katryn would be affected by a special ability or special attack, you may choose to treat her size as Huge instead of Medium.

I love the Icarian angle for her, and Zelrig is the coolest dragon out there anyway. ;)

A couple of things to note with the current design:

Dragonheart Blade is very thematic, but it doesn't have a ton of use in the set currently. Here's the current list of powers that reference sizes:
Ozuul (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55794)'s Gravity Pull
Dienekes (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55873)' Tether of Logos
Honored Soul-Guides (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55797)' Last Will (but they'd never actualy interact)
Now, that list could always change since we still have a good number of units left to develop, but the vast majority of these boxes are medium-sized units, so deeper interactions based on the size are somewhat unlikely.

That's not to say that I don't like the power. It adds some great theme, already has more use in the set than Lava Resistance, doesn't define her playstyle, and is much more interesting when players expand their collection to include other HeroScape units (think how Grimnak boosted Orc Warriors from the expansions). I just wanted to bring this up so that everyone is aware.

As for Majestic Inferno, while it's a fantastic homage to Zelrig and the story of an Icarian channeling his powers is super neat, I do worry about a couple of things. Firstly, the power should thematically be weaker than Majestic Fires Special Attack.

The lack of range and reduction of the defense penalty to -1 defense both convey this, but Majestic Inferno affecting Unique Squads when Zelrig can't does stand out thematically. It also kind of contradicts the main theme from Zelrig--that all of the nameless common warriors are so far beneath him that they're just wiped out. It's somewhat necessary when we only have Unique Squads in the box, of course, but it's a minor thematic oddity nonetheless.

I'd also like to see the Special Attack differentiated more from Ozuul, if possible. Both already affect all adjacent figures, but she trades +1 attack for a conditional -1 defense. Something along these lines helps them remain more distinct:

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Majestic Inferno Special Attack.

That's still an explosion SA, but moving it to 1 range makes it play differently and is a bit harder to set up. It also has precedent in Jotun's Wild Swing SA, but it hasn't really been explored much outside of that.

Still not sure why incorporating the natural hexes into her powerset is a bad idea, since lets be honest, the vast majority of people using these customs will more than likely have plenty of terrain to work with, IMO. The 2 single space beige hexes shouldn't be an issue.

Is everyone deadset against it tho? If so I won't bring it up again.


Our hope is specifically that this set will expand the community, which means that players who are interested in HeroScape but don't have the funds to buy a large collection/more terrain are one of our core audiences.

In reality, of course, it's likely that many of our players will own at least some other HeroScape terrain (especially the ones that we'll see, who are posting on these forums), but we have to assume that some players want to get their toes wet before jumping into HeroScape proper. We are already committed to creating several scenarios using only the AotP boxes and creating a set that is fully enjoyable on its own. Anything that places tiles is going to take out of those scenarios for all units.

Now, that's not to say that I'm deadset against it (or even just strongly opposed), but it is an uphill battle. Placing terrain could be a very interesting mechanic, but I'm not sure that it's right for this box, and any design that uses it would need to be extremely strong to justify limiting our options for maps and scenarios.

NecroBlade
May 13th, 2020, 10:35 PM
I really like the Majestic Inferno SA subtracting squad defense here. Yeah, it hits Uniques where Zelrig doesn't, but it's only -1 and that allows her to interact better with the set by itself, so I'd be fine with it. The Wild Swing angle is a nice idea to make it something different than the SAs we already have.

For her other power, I had suggested in the Discord: Huge figures can't choose Katryn for special powers or target her with special attacks. Since I imagine the main thematic intent is some kind of immunity to Dragons. This is wording that's much easier to work with, though.

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 10:44 PM
I really like the Majestic Inferno SA subtracting squad defense here. Yeah, it hits Uniques where Zelrig doesn't, but it's only -1 and that allows her to interact better with the set by itself, so I'd be fine with it. The Wild Swing angle is a nice idea to make it something different than the SAs we already have.

For her other power, I had suggested in the Discord: Huge figures can't choose Katryn for special powers or target her with special attacks. Since I imagine the main thematic intent is some kind of immunity to Dragons. This is wording that's much easier to work with, though.

I agree, we should make her Icarian, and the current powers as worded work pretty well. Plus if you think about it, there's a TON os special powers that affect small.medium figures, (like MBS's Stare - No-Can-Do on this chick!)

NecroBlade
May 13th, 2020, 10:46 PM
My gut says that would need an editing eye to figure out if it works as intended or not. Also, again, if the idea is as I think to represent some kind of Dragon immunity, just use the anti-Huge wording I proposed (since being specific to Dragons wouldn't make it very useful in this set).

Captain Stupendous
May 13th, 2020, 11:12 PM
My gut says that would need an editing eye to figure out if it works as intended or not. Also, again, if the idea is as I think to represent some kind of Dragon immunity, just use the anti-Huge wording I proposed (since being specific to Dragons wouldn't make it very useful in this set).

Thematically, my intention behind the original Dragonheart Blade power wasn't really to give her immunity to dragons. I imagined it representing how the blade was forged with Zelrig's blood and carries some of his life-force, therefore it makes the wielder immune to the same things a dragon would be. Hence the immunity to things like Ullar Enhanced Rifle Special Attack, Engagement Strike, etc. Basically it would give her all the advantages of being considered a Huge figure without any of the disadvantages. However, I do realize that the wording as written may be bending the rules too much and I don't think we should try to force something if editing didn't think the intended effect could be expressed cleanly within the established language.

I also really like Astro's suggestion to model the special attack off Jotun's Wild Swing. I think that option is a little bit more wordy than having her hit everything adjacent, but if the wording for Dragonheart Blade (or whatever other power she ends up with if the original Dragonheart Blade doesn't work) isn't too complicated I'm guessing it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Owlman
May 13th, 2020, 11:22 PM
My gut says that would need an editing eye to figure out if it works as intended or not. Also, again, if the idea is as I think to represent some kind of Dragon immunity, just use the anti-Huge wording I proposed (since being specific to Dragons wouldn't make it very useful in this set).

There's that "within a set" way of thinking again, lol. :p:lol:

I'd like to respectfully propose we take all these units out of a "within a set" mindset, and instead keep an open mind on designing them so they work well with (and in some cases are throwbacks to) the actual HeroScape game. (I know I'm in the minority here, since it's contradicting the 'mission statement' but let me make my case)

I think it's fairly realistic to assume that someone who stumbles across this site, sees the cool custom's we're designing, goes out and buys em all, and starts to play will more than likely want to get into the "actual game". (Which is what we all should want, right? More Heroscapers!)

I think we SHOULD want figures to utilize terrain/powers/other stuff that requires at least 1 master set to play!

(Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now, and shut up lol. I'm not trying to be disrespectful btw Necro, just voicing my opinion.)

Anyone else agree here, or am I about to be banned from the group for rocking the boat too much? :lol::lol:

Captain Stupendous
May 13th, 2020, 11:56 PM
I may have more time to express my thoughts more thoroughly tomorrow, but basically I think it would be a mistake to stray from the stated primary purposes of this project (Full VC compatibility, user-friendly point of entry for new players, and presentation of a self-contained and internally cohesive set).

The reason why I think these purposes are so important is that these are the main things that make this project unique and fulfill a need that is not currently being met already by C3V or SoV. If AotV didn't exist, anyone could still easily design a figure that manipulated terrain and have a chance at getting it approved through SoV. However, without AotV, right now there is no way for new players to obtain everything they need to play Heroscape for under $75.00 (and I think that's a low estimate). AotV has the potential to provide new players with everything they need to have an authentic and excellent Heroscape experience for less than $30.00. But by including units that don't work as well as possible within the self-contained nature of a Master Set, this defeats the purpose of providing new players with an excellent entry point to the game we all love. Once they have taken the plunge into AotV, at that point new players will be perfectly prepared to look to C3V and SoV to expand their collection with more figures that further push the boundaries of Heroscape's design space.

Most of what I'm saying here has already been very articulately expressed in Astroking's Case for a Valhalla Customs Master Set (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55709), the post that originally started the AotV project in the first place. If you haven't read it already, I'd definitely recommend that you check it out! It's a great read and perfectly summarizes why this project was so exciting to me from the beginning.

Pumpkin_King
May 14th, 2020, 07:34 PM
I definitely appreciate the out of the box thinking, both literally and figuratively, but yes - like Captain S posted, designing with a master set in mind is one of the core principles of the project. You’re not going to be banned from the project, don’t worry. We just have to keep certain things in mind.

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2020, 08:12 AM
Haven't had a chance to sit down and think this one through.


So far, I'm not a major fan of her getting a size change from her sword. But I am really digging the sword explosion idea.
Not being targettable by Huge figure's special attacks is kinda wonky in the MS terms, since Ozuul's SA doesn't target. It would make her immune to the pull because I believe that is a targetting power. I'm not going to :down: it, but I think we could brainstorm a bit more.

Captain Stupendous
May 16th, 2020, 11:53 AM
Haven't had a chance to sit down and think this one through.


So far, I'm not a major fan of her getting a size change from her sword. But I am really digging the sword explosion idea.
Not being targettable by Huge figure's special attacks is kinda wonky in the MS terms, since Ozuul's SA doesn't target. It would make her immune to the pull because I believe that is a targetting power. I'm not going to :down: it, but I think we could brainstorm a bit more.

What about the size change ability don't you like? If it helps any, I don't thematically see the ability as literally changing her size. It's more like by channeling the powers of a dragon she gains the same immunities that a dragon (or any other huge figure) would have. To me that's very thematic, but I can see how someone could be bothered by the way the power mechanically uses a literal change in size to represent something that's actually a little more symbolic.

One other nice thing about the ability is that it would actually give some more "texture" to the master set in terms of size variation. If future figures have abilities that specifically call out a figure's size, right now that's not very interesting since the only figure that's not medium is Ozuul. However, if Katryn was immune to these types of abilities, that would give players a little more room for counter-play within the context of the Master Set.

I also like how the ability is thematic without dramatically changing the figure's playstyle or point value. It gives the flavor of a second power without increasing the complexity much.

I suppose that's my case for the current version of Dragonheart Blade. All that being said, however, I don't see it as an essential part of the design and am totally open to brainstorming more. Another potential option could be a reverse-Thorian Speed ability, something like,

DRAGONHEART BLADE
An opponent's figure must be adjacent to Katryn in order to choose her as the target of a special attack.

I still think the size-based immunity power is more thematic, but I also like how this ability is even more of a callback to Drake and his magical katana. This would be very similar to Necroblade's suggestion, just a little more widely useful and more intentionally a mirror of Thorian Speed. Ironically, while I think this ability would probably be more useful overall and contribute more to her point value than my original size-changing idea, at this point it would actually be much less useful in terms of the Master Set as I don't think we have any ranged special attackers other than Pyria (who wouldn't be affected by this anyway as her special doesn't target specific figures). Of course, there's still plenty of time to add new ranged specials, but I thought it was worth pointing out, especially as I think this version of the ability would give her more of a niche use and feel like more of a waste in games where it wasn't relevant.

Owlman
May 16th, 2020, 12:59 PM
Haven't had a chance to sit down and think this one through.


So far, I'm not a major fan of her getting a size change from her sword. But I am really digging the sword explosion idea.
Not being targettable by Huge figure's special attacks is kinda wonky in the MS terms, since Ozuul's SA doesn't target. It would make her immune to the pull because I believe that is a targetting power. I'm not going to :down: it, but I think we could brainstorm a bit more.

What about the size change ability don't you like? If it helps any, I don't thematically see the ability as literally changing her size. It's more like by channeling the powers of a dragon she gains the same immunities that a dragon (or any other huge figure) would have. To me that's very thematic, but I can see how someone could be bothered by the way the power mechanically uses a literal change in size to represent something that's actually a little more symbolic.

One other nice thing about the ability is that it would actually give some more "texture" to the master set in terms of size variation. If future figures have abilities that specifically call out a figure's size, right now that's not very interesting since the only figure that's not medium is Ozuul. However, if Katryn was immune to these types of abilities, that would give players a little more room for counter-play within the context of the Master Set.

I also like how the ability is thematic without dramatically changing the figure's playstyle or point value. It gives the flavor of a second power without increasing the complexity much.

I suppose that's my case for the current version of Dragonheart Blade. All that being said, however, I don't see it as an essential part of the design and am totally open to brainstorming more. Another potential option could be a reverse-Thorian Speed ability, something like,

DRAGONHEART BLADE
An opponent's figure must be adjacent to Katryn in order to choose her as the target of a special attack.

I still think the size-based immunity power is more thematic, but I also like how this ability is even more of a callback to Drake and his magical katana. This would be very similar to Necroblade's suggestion, just a little more widely useful and more intentionally a mirror of Thorian Speed. Ironically, while I think this ability would probably be more useful overall and contribute more to her point value than my original size-changing idea, at this point it would actually be much less useful in terms of the Master Set as I don't think we have any ranged special attackers other than Pyria (who wouldn't be affected by this anyway as her special doesn't target specific figures). Of course, there's still plenty of time to add new ranged specials, but I thought it was worth pointing out, especially as I think this version of the ability would give her more of a niche use and feel like more of a waste in games where it wasn't relevant.

I'll second the size changing ability again. Very unique. Although this feels more of a Zelrig callback than Drake, to me. :P

Captain Stupendous
May 16th, 2020, 01:23 PM
While the abilities themselves are definitely a reference to Zelrig, the idea of a magical sword channeling the powers of a legendary warrior is an intentional nod to Drake. From Drake's official bio:

The Katana, an enchanted sword that channels the powers of the great warrior Thorian, obscures Alexander's image from afar, making him almost impossible to strike.

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 02:49 PM
The size defense ability is waaaaaaay too limited. She has to work within the set. Special attack defense works better for me.

Are we settled on her theme as a dragon warrior?

Captain Stupendous
May 16th, 2020, 03:41 PM
The size defense ability is waaaaaaay too limited. She has to work within the set. Special attack defense works better for me.

Are we settled on her theme as a dragon warrior?

I'm inclined to be okay with abilities that have more limited utility as long as they're thematic and don't contribute significantly to the figure's point value, both of which are qualifications that I think this ability would pass. Thematically, the size-defense ability makes much more sense to me in representing her as a dragon ally than some other ability that gave her an advantage against dragons (which would feel more like something I'd expect to see on an Icarian associated with the Nhah Scirh).

Also, so far out of 8 unit designs, 2 of them have relevant abilities with a size restriction (Dienekes and Ozuul), so I don't even think that her ability would be too limited just within the set. When drafting armies with just the master set, I think it would actually be fairly common for her to be facing at least one of them. Compare this to an ability which protected against ranged special attacks, which would currently have 0 utility in the set (even if the ability is still more generally useful outside the set, which in my opinion actually makes the problem worse).

My vote is for an Icarian warrior, but at this point I'd still be interested in hearing other ideas as well.

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 05:49 PM
The difference between those and hers is that they say they work on 90% of the set - her power says she's immune to just those two powers.

Astroking112
May 16th, 2020, 06:28 PM
The difference between those and hers is that they say they work on 90% of the set - her power says she's immune to just those two powers.

That's two more than the number of units that Grimnak's Orc Warrior Enhancement worked on in RotV (and it's already more useful than the Ukushisa Pride's Lava Resistance). ;) I had a lot of fun playing with Grimnak and chomping units long before I bought any expansions, but he was also a not-so-subtle reminder that there were more units out there that I could really expand my game with.

The way I see it is that a secondary power with limited usage in this box is fine so long as it doesn't define the unit or make them unsatisfying without additional expansions. We should definitely avoid something as overt as Grimnak, but a power that gets even more interesting when expansions are thrown in is definitely something within the scope of a Master Set.

Now, we don't want a lot of powers like that, of course, and there's no telling what other opportunities will present themselves for the remaining units that we have to design (conversely, we don't know if any other characters will end up using small/medium restrictions). I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.

Captain Stupendous
May 16th, 2020, 07:39 PM
The difference between those and hers is that they say they work on 90% of the set - her power says she's immune to just those two powers.

That's two more than the number of units that Grimnak's Orc Warrior Enhancement worked on in RotV (and it's already more useful than the Ukushisa Pride's Lava Resistance). ;) I had a lot of fun playing with Grimnak and chomping units long before I bought any expansions, but he was also a not-so-subtle reminder that there were more units out there that I could really expand my game with.

The way I see it is that a secondary power with limited usage in this box is fine so long as it doesn't define the unit or make them unsatisfying without additional expansions. We should definitely avoid something as overt as Grimnak, but a power that gets even more interesting when expansions are thrown in is definitely something within the scope of a Master Set.

Now, we don't want a lot of powers like that, of course, and there's no telling what other opportunities will present themselves for the remaining units that we have to design (conversely, we don't know if any other characters will end up using small/medium restrictions). I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.

I agree. For me, the big reason why I think the limited usage could be justified in this case is that the size-based immunity doesn't define the unit and isn't contributing significantly to the figure's point cost (this would also apply to Lava Resistant as well, or the original Drake's Grapple Gun which was also only marginally useful 90% of the time). As long as a figure is still likely to be worth their points regardless of whether or not a specific ability activates, then I think a case can be made for including that ability as long as it supports other aspects of the design, in this case the theme. I do also think that adding another unit besides Ozuul that is able to play around Deineke's ability is a good thing for the Master Set meta as a whole.

Also, I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between the utility of Katryn's power and Ozuul or Deineke's power. I was just trying to point out that Katryn's power would already work against 1/4 of the units that have been designed so far, which within the context of the set would be more useful than an ability that made her untargetable by non-adjacent special attacks, which would currently have 0 utility (and contribute more to her point cost).

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2020, 06:00 PM
I'm just not a big fan of size changing as a mechanic in classic Heroscape, especially in a Master Set. Comparing to the "theme" of Drake's katana is not doing it any favors in my book, either.

Ketchupgeek
May 17th, 2020, 06:20 PM
DRAGONHEART BLADE
An opponent's figure must be adjacent to Katryn in order to choose her as the target of a special attack.

I still think the size-based immunity power is more thematic, but I also like how this ability is even more of a callback to Drake and his magical katana. This would be very similar to Necroblade's suggestion, just a little more widely useful and more intentionally a mirror of Thorian Speed. Ironically, while I think this ability would probably be more useful overall and contribute more to her point value than my original size-changing idea, at this point it would actually be much less useful in terms of the Master Set as I don't think we have any ranged special attackers other than Pyria (who wouldn't be affected by this anyway as her special doesn't target specific figures). Of course, there's still plenty of time to add new ranged specials, but I thought it was worth pointing out, especially as I think this version of the ability would give her more of a niche use and feel like more of a waste in games where it wasn't relevant.

He was talking about this alternate power being a callback to Drake

Pumpkin_King
May 17th, 2020, 07:48 PM
How many "choose a target" SAs are there? Astro's arguments RE: Grimnak has persuaded me down, but I still think if we go the SA route it's worth considering. Could also jsut give her an autoshield vs SAs.

Captain Stupendous
May 18th, 2020, 12:25 AM
How many "choose a target" SAs are there? Astro's arguments RE: Grimnak has persuaded me down, but I still think if we go the SA route it's worth considering. Could also jsut give her an autoshield vs SAs.

I was under the impression that every normal or special attack implicitly required you to "choose a target" unless the attack specifically told you not to (ie. Fire Line or Pyria's attack). However, it's very possible that I could be mistaken about that. My intention was that it would work against basically all special attacks, but wouldn't prevent her from being caught in the area of effect of attacks like Explosion or Fire Line.

If we do settle on her theme as a loyal Icarian Dragon-worshiper, it would seem strange to me to give her an ability that made her more effective at fighting against dragons. Rolling an autoshield vs SAs seems very much like a signature characteristic of the Nhah Scirh as it represents their antagonism toward dragons, which I think is the opposite of the theme we're currently exploring for this unit. That's not to say that we shouldn't explore a different thematic direction for the figure; just that the resistance to SAs seems a little at odds with the current direction and justification for her Majestic Inferno ability.

Pumpkin_King
May 18th, 2020, 12:31 AM
That's fair, you're right about that RE: theme of her being a dragon server.

capsocrates
May 18th, 2020, 07:05 PM
If you're giving her the adjacent-explosion attack I don't think you need to make the other power also have to do with the blade.

Captain Stupendous
May 18th, 2020, 08:15 PM
If you're giving her the adjacent-explosion attack I don't think you need to make the other power also have to do with the blade.

I agree. Since Majestic Inferno SA doesn't directly reference her sword, I think that using another power to give a specific name to her weapon as the "Dragonheart Blade" is a nice thematic touch, but by no means necessary. So far though, I don't think I've seen any other suggestions for a second power other than Necroblade's proposed resistance to huge figures? To me that seems a little unthematic because I don't see why an ally of dragons would have an ability that makes her more effective at fighting against dragons, but I'm definitely open to exploring more options for her second power.

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2020, 04:53 AM
Could a renamed Fanatical Advance be appropriate here?

Dragon Warrior
Nahiri never receives leaving engagement attacks from squad figures.

It gives her a little extra trick to pull off bigger explosive swords swings. We can always name the sword in the bio, and the special attack is very clearly a nod to the sword (unlike Thorian Speed).

capsocrates
May 19th, 2020, 10:28 AM
I don't see the theme fit on that one.

What about Tough?

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2020, 11:26 AM
Tough would be fine, I'd just push for her to have low low defense. She doesn't look anything like a defender unit.

Zetsubo
May 19th, 2020, 03:19 PM
:up: to Icarian dragon warrior

Instead of making her size huge, what about preventing other units from moving her? Mechanically it would accomplish the same goal as changing her size to huge. The two units that care about size in this set also move their targets.

DRAGONHEART COURAGE
Opponents figures may not move Nahiri using any special ability.

capsocrates
May 19th, 2020, 04:44 PM
There's a power that does that in C3V you could borrow wording from; it is called STEADFAST and it is on the Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep.

Captain Stupendous
May 19th, 2020, 11:00 PM
I personally don't see the thematic justification for giving her Tough, but I could probably be persuaded.

Reusing a version of Steadfast seems even more niche outside the set than the size change, especially without a strong thematic connection.

Here's another option to consider that might better fit the theme of a dragon ally?

LOYAL PROTECTOR
Add +1 to the Attack and Defense values of this card [or some other bonus?] if Katryn is adjacent to a friendly wounded unique hero.

Pumpkin_King
May 20th, 2020, 04:36 PM
I do like that.

Captain Stupendous
May 20th, 2020, 08:10 PM
My one concern with simply giving her a conditional Attack or Defense boost would be keeping in mind the overall number of units in the set that have ways to modify their Attack or Defense. Including Nahiri we're looking at 4 out of 12 figures so far whose Attack or Defense stats can fluctuate (Tetsuo, Ukushisa, Nahiri, and Rhox), and if Sorin does end up having an attack-boosting cheerleader ability that would mean that almost half of all the units designed so far have some way to modify an Attack or Defense stat, which seems like a lot. Doesn't mean I'd necessarily be against something like Loyal Protector here, but just thought it was worth keeping in mind.

Owlman
May 21st, 2020, 10:43 AM
My one concern with simply giving her a conditional Attack or Defense boost would be keeping in mind the overall number of units in the set that have ways to modify their Attack or Defense. Including Nahiri we're looking at 4 out of 12 figures so far whose Attack or Defense stats can fluctuate (Tetsuo, Ukushisa, Nahiri, and Rhox), and if Sorin does end up having an attack-boosting cheerleader ability that would mean that almost half of all the units designed so far have some way to modify an Attack or Defense stat, which seems like a lot. Doesn't mean I'd necessarily be against something like Loyal Protector here, but just thought it was worth keeping in mind.

Yea, same here, I'm not in favor of any stat modifying abilities on her. The changing size and flame sword special are perfect IMO. (Although I don't think people realize how potent that size ability will be on her, even tho she's being designed for this set, we al know we'll be using her with other figures who have "small or medium" abilities all the time. I'm looking forward to playtesting her if we go that direction!)

flameslayer93
May 21st, 2020, 04:02 PM
Just gonna have to remember that she’s considered Huge, which will be the trick to seeing if the power works well (since its a power you have to actively remember).

Captain Stupendous
May 21st, 2020, 10:11 PM
Just gonna have to remember that sheís considered Huge, which will be the trick to seeing if the power works well (since its a power you have to actively remember).

I don't think its really that much different than having to actively remember things like the Krav Maga's stealth dodge or Thorian Speed.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 09:39 AM
Initial thoughts:

https://i.postimg.cc/MZgqyn1b/Nahiri.jpg

She is fairly character-centric, like her Magic bio, and folks may wanna change that, but I'm a big fan of utilizing thos beige single space sand like tiles that come w/the set, since they are such a unique color compared to other Scape tiles. Thoughts?? :)

I think caring about those tiles would be better for a figure that looks like it would care about those tiles.

I think her main focus should be about that sword.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 09:40 AM
Terrain changing abilities are very fun and cool, but there isn't enough terrain from the sets to put aside for her. Unfortunately I'd have to disagree with placing tiles.

She has a very prominent glowing sword that I think would be a crime not to incorporate into an ability. Other than a magic sword, I'm not sure on what theme to go with for her mini. Perhaps she could be more of a combat focused unit, or a 'Joan of Arc' like cheerleader raising her flaming sword

Ooh. Yes. I like this.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 09:46 AM
Based on our mission statement, our primary goals are three-fold:

1. To be compatible with Classic/Official Heroscape, and completely VC-compliant: that is, designing with C3V and SoV figures in mind, and focusing on the AOTP figures that would be acceptable to SoV (figures that are pre-painted or usable without paint).


2. To provide an affordable and user-friendly entry point to both new and returning players, that captures the feel of a true Master Set.


3. To create balanced units that are relatively simple, easy to understand, and feel at home in a self-contained set together. Units will come from a wide range of themes, and capture the diversity of theme Heroscape is beloved for.

I echo other people's concerns about Nahiri placing terrain tiles. Personally, I would love to see this figure as an Icarian of some kind. Below is a draft I came up with for an Icarian warrior who is a faithful subject of Zelrig.

Katryn Vade, Emperorís Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defence dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.

DRAGONHEART BLADE
Whenever Katryn would be affected by a special ability or special attack, you may choose to treat her size as Huge instead of Medium.

I've also drafted a short unpolished bio for her to further explain her theme. Note that this figure draws heavily upon the lore surrounding the classic Heroscape dragons, especially the bios for Nilfheim (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8115) and Zelrig (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19517).

For generations, the men of the eastern Icarian clans have paid yearly tribute to the great Dragon Emperor Zelrig, offering their most prized possessions as expressions of gratitude to their lord and protector. Yet, in over a thousand years, only one most unlikely person has ever been honored with a gift in return.

When the Nhah-Scirh attacked, Zelrigís life was saved by a young warrior, Katryn Vade. Her sacrificial choice that day inspired Zelrig to entrust her with the Dragonheart Blade, a sword forged from the blood of his own wounds. In battle, it is said that this weapon blazes with the flame of the Dragon Emperor himself, allowing Katryn to summon a column of fire which consumes her enemies.

When Katryn Vade chose to save her Emperor, she lost her family.
Now, with the Dragon Emperor's blessing, Katryn lives to avenge them.


Of course this is just one of many possible directions we could go with her. At this point I think just discussing a lot of potential ideas is good as we get a feel for where we want to take this figure.
This is very cool. Have the Icarians been used before?

The Dragonheart Blade is too cryptic for my liking however.
How about:
Nair Hiri is never affected by attacks that affect more than one figure.

I'd rather that defensive ability not be tied to the sword.
Blessing of the Emperor - or some such.

Majestic Sword Special Attack, etc

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 09:49 AM
I think the powerset could use tweaking, but Iím very excited by the Icarian angle for Nahiri. The majestic fires connection is tough, though, because itís going to be odd that it works against unique squads when Zelrigís doesnít. Still, I think itís on a very good track.

Same here, the Icarian angle is cool!

Still not sure why incorporating the natural hexes into her powerset is a bad idea, since lets be honest, the vast majority of people using these customs will more than likely have plenty of terrain to work with, IMO. The 2 single space beige hexes shouldn't be an issue.

Is everyone deadset against it tho? If so I won't bring it up again.


I'm all for using her flaming sword special tho! Makes sense :)

Like this:

Karina Vade, Emperorís Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.

Wielder of theDRAGONHEART BLADE
Whenever Karina Vade would be affected by a special ability or special attack, you may choose to treat her size as Huge instead of Medium.

Suggested changes in bold!

I like how you added Wielder here, because it shifts the focus of the power coming from a sword to being the wielder of the sword (and thus why it's not a combat power)

However, I disagree with lowering of the Attack.
Agent Carr, Sgt. Drake Alexander...

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 09:59 AM
Haven't had a chance to sit down and think this one through.


So far, I'm not a major fan of her getting a size change from her sword. But I am really digging the sword explosion idea.
Not being targettable by Huge figure's special attacks is kinda wonky in the MS terms, since Ozuul's SA doesn't target. It would make her immune to the pull because I believe that is a targetting power. I'm not going to :down: it, but I think we could brainstorm a bit more.

What about the size change ability don't you like? If it helps any, I don't thematically see the ability as literally changing her size. It's more like by channeling the powers of a dragon she gains the same immunities that a dragon (or any other huge figure) would have. To me that's very thematic, but I can see how someone could be bothered by the way the power mechanically uses a literal change in size to represent something that's actually a little more symbolic.

One other nice thing about the ability is that it would actually give some more "texture" to the master set in terms of size variation. If future figures have abilities that specifically call out a figure's size, right now that's not very interesting since the only figure that's not medium is Ozuul. However, if Katryn was immune to these types of abilities, that would give players a little more room for counter-play within the context of the Master Set.

I also like how the ability is thematic without dramatically changing the figure's playstyle or point value. It gives the flavor of a second power without increasing the complexity much.

I suppose that's my case for the current version of Dragonheart Blade. All that being said, however, I don't see it as an essential part of the design and am totally open to brainstorming more. Another potential option could be a reverse-Thorian Speed ability, something like,

DRAGONHEART BLADE
An opponent's figure must be adjacent to Katryn in order to choose her as the target of a special attack.

I still think the size-based immunity power is more thematic, but I also like how this ability is even more of a callback to Drake and his magical katana. This would be very similar to Necroblade's suggestion, just a little more widely useful and more intentionally a mirror of Thorian Speed. Ironically, while I think this ability would probably be more useful overall and contribute more to her point value than my original size-changing idea, at this point it would actually be much less useful in terms of the Master Set as I don't think we have any ranged special attackers other than Pyria (who wouldn't be affected by this anyway as her special doesn't target specific figures). Of course, there's still plenty of time to add new ranged specials, but I thought it was worth pointing out, especially as I think this version of the ability would give her more of a niche use and feel like more of a waste in games where it wasn't relevant.
The issue with size-based immunity as that it doesn't come off as expressing what you want it to.

HEART OF THE DRAGON
At the start of the game, choose a Dragon in your army to be Nair Hiri's champion. For as long as that champion is on the battlefield, Nair Hiri's Defense and Size are equal to that champion's Defense and Size.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:04 AM
Could a renamed Fanatical Advance be appropriate here?

Dragon Warrior
Nahiri never receives leaving engagement attacks from squad figures.

It gives her a little extra trick to pull off bigger explosive swords swings. We can always name the sword in the bio, and the special attack is very clearly a nod to the sword (unlike Thorian Speed).

The idea behind this is neat: Have her powers reference and with new nuance.
He hoses squads, she disregards them.

a Flavor win.

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:06 AM
I personally don't see the thematic justification for giving her Tough, but I could probably be persuaded.

Reusing a version of Steadfast seems even more niche outside the set than the size change, especially without a strong thematic connection.

Here's another option to consider that might better fit the theme of a dragon ally?

LOYAL PROTECTOR
Add +1 to the Attack and Defense values of this card [or some other bonus?] if Katryn is adjacent to a friendly wounded unique hero.

This looks more like a power for the Rhox

Confred
May 23rd, 2020, 10:09 AM
And we're caught up.
My brainstorm:

POWER 1
Before attacking with Nair Hiri, you may attack with any Huge figure you control. When choosing figures to attack, if it's for a special attack, that figure may choose figures adjacent to Nair Hiri.

Power 2
Nair Hiri is never attacked by common figures for leaving an engagement.

Pumpkin_King
June 9th, 2020, 09:50 PM
Bumping this. How we feeling?

Confred
June 11th, 2020, 10:03 PM
Bumping this. How we feeling?

I feel we're all over the place, but have explored interesting ideas.

https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/5/7/1/nothing_254868.png

Sidenote, her color scheme looks good as Utgar.

Captain Stupendous
June 11th, 2020, 11:17 PM
Can't say that I love the idea of dragon bonding when there's no dragons in the set. I also find the Icarian angle much more compelling than an elf. I really do think we have something with the flaming sword Icarian dragon worshiper idea.

Confred
June 13th, 2020, 02:51 PM
Can't say that I love the idea of dragon bonding when there's no dragons in the set. I also find the Icarian angle much more compelling than an elf. I really do think we have something with the flaming sword Icarian dragon worshiper idea.

Elf didn't feel right. I like Icarian if that's a thing (Sorin has the same complexion, so maybe him too)

Dragon worshiper doesn't sit right, especially since as you said there isn't a Dragon in the set.

I do like the idea of her flaming sword having some identity.

Astroking112
June 13th, 2020, 04:29 PM
Can't say that I love the idea of dragon bonding when there's no dragons in the set. I also find the Icarian angle much more compelling than an elf. I really do think we have something with the flaming sword Icarian dragon worshiper idea.

Elf didn't feel right. I like Icarian if that's a thing (Sorin has the same complexion, so maybe him too)

Dragon worshiper doesn't sit right, especially since as you said there isn't a Dragon in the set.

I do like the idea of her flaming sword having some identity.

The Icarians are referenced in several official bios (off the top of my head, Nilfheim and Zelrig stand out, along with C3V's Quahon). They're the humanoid residents of Icaria, the planet where pretty much all of the non-D&D dragons came from. The only Icarian unit so far is the Nhah Scirh Cultists (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=48144), which are a dragon-slaying cult referenced in Nilfheim and Quahon's bios.

It's worth noting that Zelrig's bio (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19517), which Captain Stupdendous' draft was inspired by, is written from the perspective of the non-evil Icarians that he protects. The dragons are pretty much gods or rulers on Icaria, protecting separate tribes of Icarians from other threats. It's perfectly fine to say that this design is a hero from one of those tribes, even if the dragon itself isn't present (probably not the Nhah Scirh, though, since they're dedicated to dragon-slaying and she looks very different).

Personally, I don't mind if a unit is thematically tied to units outside of the set so long as it is satisfying to play without those units. Dragon Bonding, for example, would really stand out when we can't release any dragons for it, while a medium-sized hero that is themed like a dragon is more acceptable.

Confred
June 15th, 2020, 12:45 AM
Can't say that I love the idea of dragon bonding when there's no dragons in the set. I also find the Icarian angle much more compelling than an elf. I really do think we have something with the flaming sword Icarian dragon worshiper idea.

Elf didn't feel right. I like Icarian if that's a thing (Sorin has the same complexion, so maybe him too)

Dragon worshiper doesn't sit right, especially since as you said there isn't a Dragon in the set.

I do like the idea of her flaming sword having some identity.

The Icarians are referenced in several official bios (off the top of my head, Nilfheim and Zelrig stand out, along with C3V's Quahon). They're the humanoid residents of Icaria, the planet where pretty much all of the non-D&D dragons came from. The only Icarian unit so far is the Nhah Scirh Cultists (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=48144), which are a dragon-slaying cult referenced in Nilfheim and Quahon's bios.

It's worth noting that Zelrig's bio (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19517), which Captain Stupdendous' draft was inspired by, is written from the perspective of the non-evil Icarians that he protects. The dragons are pretty much gods or rulers on Icaria, protecting separate tribes of Icarians from other threats. It's perfectly fine to say that this design is a hero from one of those tribes, even if the dragon itself isn't present (probably not the Nhah Scirh, though, since they're dedicated to dragon-slaying and she looks very different).

Personally, I don't mind if a unit is thematically tied to units outside of the set so long as it is satisfying to play without those units. Dragon Bonding, for example, would really stand out when we can't release any dragons for it, while a medium-sized hero that is themed like a dragon is more acceptable.

I dig all of this. When finalized, a shopped version of this information should be in her bio.

Zetsubo
June 17th, 2020, 05:26 AM
Here's another option to consider that might better fit the theme of a dragon ally?

LOYAL PROTECTOR
Add +1 to the Attack and Defense values of this card [or some other bonus?] if Katryn is adjacent to a friendly wounded unique hero.

I like the idea of Loyal Protector but agree a basic stat boost is boring. What about

SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.

It pairs her with a hero and lets her make multiple attacks to cut through squads. Perhaps a slight move buff to help with getting close enough to use her double attack?

Pumpkin_King
June 17th, 2020, 04:35 PM
Here's a draft I quickly worked up with a few posts from the last page or two:


Karina Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.


SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.


===


I think we can simplify Sacred Guardian but I'm good with having it on a draft so we can start somewhere.

Captain Stupendous
June 17th, 2020, 08:12 PM
Here's a draft I quickly worked up with a few posts from the last page or two:


Karina Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.


SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.


===


I think we can simplify Sacred Guardian but I'm good with having it on a draft so we can start somewhere.


While I wouldn't oppose 5 attack, I think the sculpt could easily justify an attack value of 6. That sword is impressive in real life, and I think the higher attack could make the decision of whether or not to use her SA more difficult.

I also know that earlier Astroking (and maybe others?) had suggested basing the special attack off of Jotun's Wild Swing so as to differentiate it more from Ozuul's special attack. That ends up being slightly wordier, but I agree that the change is probably worth the extra words.

While I like the concept of SACRED GUARDIAN, I think that it could use a little more work. It seems odd to me that as currently worded Katryn could start her turn next to a wounded hero, then run away and still get the bonus for Sacred Guardian. I think I'd prefer allowing the ability to trigger as long as she was within 4 clear sight spaces of a friendly wounded unique hero. Also, if we stick with the double attack angle, I'd recommend allowing her to attack again with either her normal or special attack to ensure that her special attack remains relevant.

Here's a couple other directions I like as well:
LOYAL PROTECTOR
If Katryn Vade ends her turn adjacent to a friendly unique hero with at least one wound marker on its card, you may immediately take one additional turn with Katryn Vade

Or, for something different:
VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a unique hero you control is destroyed, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a figure from this card to take one additional turn with her.

The same effect could also be accomplished easily with markers if using figures would interact negatively with spirit powers.

Pumpkin_King
June 17th, 2020, 08:31 PM
Anyone else want to chime in with a direction for the second power?

Zetsubo
June 17th, 2020, 09:35 PM
Here's my interpretation draft

Nahiri
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

INFERNO BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Inferno Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Squad figures roll 1 less defence dice against Inferno Blade Special Attack. Nahiri cannot be affected by her own Inferno Blade Special Attack.

Power 2 Name
If Nahiri is within 4 clear sight spaces of a friendly unique hero with at least 1 wound marker on its card and makes a normal attack, Nahiri may attack again with a normal or special attack.

Captain Stupendous
June 17th, 2020, 09:38 PM
Do we officially want to take DRAGONHEART BLADE off the table?

DRAGONHEART BLADE
Whenever Katryn would be affected by a special ability or special attack, you may choose to treat her size as Huge instead of Medium.

I know it was somewhat controversial when I first suggested it, but its still my favorite choice for a second power, and I think that opinion was shared by Owlman and possibly Astroking112 as well? One of the things I really like about it is the way it provides more counterplay within the masterset for abilities like Ozuul's Gravity Pull and Dienekes' Tether of Logos. Judging from playtesting it seems like Tether of Logos will be fairly potent, and providing players with another way besides Ozuul to play around that ability with just the figures in the master set is a good thing.

Aside from that, I like how the ability is somewhat subtle and (to me at least) does a great job of thematically connecting her to Zelrig and the dragons based on my proposed backstory.

However, if the majority would rather see something different, I shan't bring it up again.

Pumpkin_King
June 18th, 2020, 05:01 PM
I really think that power feels too customy (which I know is an entirely vague and nondescriptive category) and won't have enough application in general, nevermind in the set.

I would like to hear one more round of if people really are into it.

Captain Stupendous
June 18th, 2020, 07:47 PM
I really think that power feels too customy (which I know is an entirely vague and nondescriptive category) and won't have enough application in general, nevermind in the set.

I would like to hear one more round of if people really are into it.

While I'm personally okay with it, I can definitely understand how someone might feel that way about it being too "customy." It does straddle the line in terms of what I might consider too "customy" for a VC-worthy unit, even if I ultimately think it falls on the acceptable side of that line.

However, I don't think the relatively limited application is a problem, given that even when it is relevant its effect wouldn't be all that powerful and won't end up contributing much to her overall point cost. I also really don't think that we should underestimate the additional strategic implications that adding another "Huge" figure would have for the use of Gravity Pull, Tether of Logos, and any other size-related abilities that end up in the set. Ultimately I think the ability contributes value to the design more as a fun thematic garnish, rather than something that defines the unit (much like the "steadfast" ability for c3v's Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=50575), another thematic power that is arguably even less useful than Dragonheart Blade).

Astroking112
June 19th, 2020, 01:32 PM
Jumping in really quick to offer my :2cents: on Dragonheart Blade:

I think that it really helps in selling the theme that she is channeling the powers of an actual dragon. With just a Special Attack named similarly to Zelrig's but acting slightly different, it evokes him without necessarily making the connection more fully.

I do think that the power itself could be improved with a few changes:
DRAGON'S BLOOD
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 4 instead of what is on this card.

That cuts out Special Attacks, which can get really wonky and usually don't depend on size anyway, and limits it specifically to when she is chosen for a Special Power. That means that stuff like Sir Denrick's Giant Killer wouldn't affect her, but she can choose to be immune against things like Braxas' Poisonous Acid Breath. Of course, Scytale would know how to word this far better, but I think that reigning in the scope of the power a fair bit would help ease the almost guaranteed rules issues.

The other change (that I personally think is more important) is to rename the power to help sell the theme. It's nice to give the glowing fire sword a specific name, but Dragonheart Blade doesn't really give any explanation for why Katryn suddenly "becomes huge," which makes the power hard to envision. The power name should more clearly depict her channeling the image of Zelrig or whatever else to justify why she gains those immunities, not just name the blade. Her bio could explain that she received the "_____ Blade" from Zelrig and that's how she got her powers, just like Drake with his magical katana. I think that a better name than Dragon's Blood is in order, but hopefully it gets the idea across well enough.

You could even add "...treat her species as Dragon and her size and height as..." to really nail down the theme (though that does come with the super weird result of making her an eligible Lizard King :lol:).

In terms of this power feeling "custom-y," I don't think that it's any worse than a power saying that a figure can triple their height (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19527) when climbing. Conditionally changing height is already a thing, so conditionally changing size doesn't seem to break with the spirit of the game to me. :shrug:

In terms of usefulness, there are enough times that I would want to use this power that I consider it very useful. Many auto-wounding powers include small or medium restrictions, especially in classic HeroScape. Stuff like Engagement Strike, Trample Stomp, Ramming, Knockback, Throw, Talon Grab, and plenty more all lose their effectiveness against Katryn. I actually think that the power is much more useful than many niche defensive powers, since it's effectively giving her Large/Huge immunities. It won't matter in every game, but it'll definitely matter enough times to be noticed.

Now, in our set, that's currently just Ozuul, Dienekes, and (maybe) Vlad. That means that there will be games with just these characters where the large/huge immunities of Ozuul and the Ukushisa Pride matter, but they are the only figures with those immunities currently. Captain Stupendous already did an excellent job of outlining why that can be seen as a benefit rather than as a negative, so I won't repeat that argument.

...In hindsight, that wasn't very quick at all. My apologies for the long post--I sat down intending only to respond to my ping. :lol: Personally, I would suggest pinging the rest of the pod and seeing how they feel about the second power.

flameslayer93
June 19th, 2020, 03:06 PM
After spending a lot of time deliberating on this (sorry, this is a chaotic time for essential workers :$ ), I’m up for the huge Katryn power. There will be times when it comes into play, and it gives her a niche secondary power that doesn’t feel like it requires too much effort to find a use for. I like the name of Dragon’s Blood.

Captain Stupendous
June 21st, 2020, 03:26 PM
Thanks for the input, Astroking112! Confred, Amarant, Zetsubo care to weigh in with your thoughts on this as a 2nd power?


DRAGON'S BLOOD
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 4 instead of what is on this card.

I also think the name could be workshopped some more. While I like the name Dragonheart Blade, I understand how it's confusing and relies on the connection to the bio too much to get the intended theme across. I think DRAGON'S BLOOD could work, although again, without reading the bio it sounds like Katryn is descended from a dragon or something. I think I'd prefer DRAGON'S BLESSING as the name for the 2nd power.

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2020, 03:43 PM
Alright, Astro actually has convinced me - but I'd want it to be a third power. We're avoiding three powers in the set, but I think here it's justified since the impact is so small.

Zetsubo
June 23rd, 2020, 02:51 PM
I like the size changing ability. But it probably won't contribute many points. So if we want her cheaper then that would be the only other power. If we want her more expensive, then we would need a third power.

flameslayer93
June 23rd, 2020, 03:45 PM
I like the size changing ability. But it probably won't contribute many points. So if we want her cheaper then that would be the only other power. If we want her more expensive, then we would need a third power.

If we went with a third, Iíd prefer it be a power that further help distinguish her from Chandra. Currently the design is offense oriented. It might help if she got a nice all round defensive power making her similar to Drake 1. Could even be something like Melee Defense 1-2.

Captain Stupendous
June 23rd, 2020, 07:53 PM
While I don't think its strictly necessary, I don't have any problems with adding a third power if it complements the design and doesn't add too much complexity. I'd also be in favor of adding another defensive power to differentiate from Chandra, although I'd prefer not to see a simple Defense stat boost only because we already have a large number of units in the set whose Attack and Defense stats can fluctuate (Tetsuo, Ukushisa, Rhox, Sorin, and kind of Velkhor).

As another alternative to the defensive power route, I also thought the following ideas were promising:


SACRED GUARDIAN
After attacking with Nahiri, if Nahiri is within 4 clear sight spaces of a friendly unique hero with at least 1 wound marker on its card, Nahiri may attack again with a normal or special attack.

LOYAL PROTECTOR
If Katryn Vade ends her turn adjacent to a friendly unique hero with at least one wound marker on its card, you may reveal the X order marker on this card to immediately take an additional turn with Katryn Vade.

VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a unique hero you control is destroyed, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a figure from this card to take one additional turn with her.

I'm also totally open to other ideas as well at this point. Pumpkin_King, did you have anything specific in mind that you were hoping to see as a third power?

Pumpkin_King
June 24th, 2020, 05:46 PM
I meant Dragon Blood or whatever we're calling it as the third power. She could have a special attack (I could even consider dropping the SA), a defensive along the times you've just suggested, and the size change power.

Captain Stupendous
June 27th, 2020, 04:24 PM
So, how would people feel about this as a first draft?


Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior (or Champion?) / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a friendly unique hero within 6 clear sight spaces of Katryn is destroyed during an opponent's turn, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a friendly figure from this card to take one additional turn with Katryn. (This could also be accomplished with tokens if we thought this wording wouldn't interact properly with Spirit powers)

DRAGON'S BLESSING (or ASPECT OF THE DRAGON or DRAGON'S BLOOD?)
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 5 instead of what is on this card.

Zetsubo
June 27th, 2020, 05:31 PM
So, how would people feel about this as a first draft?


Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior (or Champion?) / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a friendly unique hero within 6 clear sight spaces of Katryn is destroyed during an opponent's turn, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a friendly figure from this card to take one additional turn with Katryn. (This could also be accomplished with tokens if we thought this wording wouldn't interact properly with Spirit powers)

DRAGON'S BLESSING (or ASPECT OF THE DRAGON or DRAGON'S BLOOD?)
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 5 instead of what is on this card.

I think champion and Aspect of the Dragon fit best here. I've never been a big fan of abilities that place other figures onto a units card (abilities that place itself on other cards I'm fine with i.e. vikings). Thematically, she'd be taking revenge and not protecting as her initial bio described. Everything else looks perfect

Captain Stupendous
June 27th, 2020, 06:05 PM
So, how would people feel about this as a first draft?


Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior (or Champion?) / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a friendly unique hero within 6 clear sight spaces of Katryn is destroyed during an opponent's turn, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a friendly figure from this card to take one additional turn with Katryn. (This could also be accomplished with tokens if we thought this wording wouldn't interact properly with Spirit powers)

DRAGON'S BLESSING (or ASPECT OF THE DRAGON or DRAGON'S BLOOD?)
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 5 instead of what is on this card.

I think champion and Aspect of the Dragon fit best here. I've never been a big fan of abilities that place other figures onto a units card (abilities that place itself on other cards I'm fine with i.e. vikings). Thematically, she'd be taking revenge and not protecting as her initial bio described. Everything else looks perfect

Thematically, the idea of Vow of Vengeance plays into the part in her bio suggesting that her choice to save Zelrig resulted in the death of her family, and she now lives to avenge them. If placing figures on the card is a problem for enough people, the power could also easily be worded to use tokens instead of figures.

That being said, I'm still open to discussing any other power to replace Vow of Vengeance.

flameslayer93
June 27th, 2020, 07:31 PM
VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a friendly unique hero within 6 clear sight spaces of Katryn is destroyed during an opponent's turn, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a friendly figure from this card to take one additional turn with Katryn. (This could also be accomplished with tokens if we thought this wording wouldn't interact properly with Spirit powers)

I said as much over in the discord, but I'm not entirely for :up:'ing this power, although I'm not entirely for :down:'ing this power either.

There's a few things that give me pause about the direction this power takes us.

For starters, I'm not sure I like the idea of another unit placing figures on Army Cards in the set. It already felt clunky when we tried it on the Soulguides, and I feel it'll feel clunky here too. Markers alleviate this issue, although I'm not sure this needs to be a design where we should employ markers.

The other, small, issue I have is that this makes her play too similarly to the Soulguides. Waiting until the endgame to be truly useful is fine, but I think we should try to flesh out the Master Set in other ways before we resort to that trick again (after all, we only have 8 units basically designed!). Since I feel there are other directions we can take her to make her feel useful, I feel we should go with one of those directions.

A quick summary of what we else could do here from the discord (that's not to say VoV as written is a no go, I'd like to hear from the other Pod 2 members as well.:

1) Leave her as a two power card.
Pro: Keep it simple, stupid.
Con: This makes her feel like a budget Jotun, taking away the uniqueness of the identity. Even the Velnesh feel distinct in a way from the Ninjas of the North Wind.

2: Convert VoV into Overextend Attack.
Pro: Re-use of a classic power, it lets her keep some of the theme of VoV.
She also isn't relegated solely to being an endgame powerhouse.
Con: Starts to tread closely on Alistair's playstyle, and maybe needlessly steals part of Tetsuo's self-wounding for more power shtick.

3: Letting her eat wounds a la John Varan.
Pro: Lets her tread a fine line between protector and attacker, giving her a theme similar to what her (prototype) bio suggests, a dragon's protector. She would have a fairly unique playstyle from anything I can think of off the top of my head as she has to balance attacking with protecting.
Con: Raelin podding is a nuissance. Gutting her life/defense might help fix that, but then again it might not.

4: Allowing VoV to grant an extra attack/turn in some form or another if another hero within her vicinity is wounded.
Pro: Doesn't require her to come in exclusively during endgame, and still retains some of the theme in the proposed VoV.
Con: It might not feel like enough to make it worth drafting her, or it'll feel like overkill since she can technically wound her own allies with the AoE firesword.

I'm fairly ok with any of these, but I think we should decide what type of hero she should be. Should she be a shark? Should she be a unit you throw OMs on sparingly? Should she be tricky to play, but with powerful powers? A beatstick? Endgame powerhouse?

So far, I prefer anything other than endgame powerhouse, for reasons stated above.

Also, since I suggested it, I'll toss out a draft of what the wound eating/powerhouse attacker option might look like.

Katryn Vade, Emperorís Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Protector / Devoted / Medium 5

4 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 2 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

HEROIC PROTECTOR
When an adjacent hero you control is attacked by a normal attack, you may place all of the wounds that hero would receive on this Army Card instead.

DRAGON'S BLESSING
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 5 instead of what is on this card.

This design combines the notion that she is a powerhouse attacker (5A normal and a 3A Special Attack) with the notion that she'll protect others with her very life. The low life/defense values mean that any attacks that get to her will be deathly strong and because the life value is low, she doesn't really get to protect figures like Raelin for long. And if you are drafting her for that purpose, I can't see it being any worse than literally any squad. If you are going to spend a turn on her, she can use a good single strike, or a nice explosive special attack that could end up hurting the ones she's supposed to protect.

So, her playstyle becomes a tricky one to use well as she combines the sacrificial nature of Nagrubs with the offensive nature of Jotun and the protective nature of Varan without completely stepping on the toes of any of their parts. And she becomes a protector in the more literal sense. ;)

Captain Stupendous
June 28th, 2020, 11:16 AM
I really appreciate the discussion on Nahiri. While I like the idea of Heroic Protector, I have a couple concerns about how it would play out in practice?

My main thought is that her offensive potential is high enough that 90% of the time I feel like at that stat-line (4 life 2 defense) she would be targeted before any adjacent heroes anyway, even if she were just a two-power card without Heroic Protector.

Essentially, at that statline Heroic Protector as an ability seems kind of irrelevant unless you're running Raelin.

Another note about Vow of Vengeance, I think the restriction that she can only avenge the death of unique heroes who died within 6 clear sight spaces of her would keep her from being an endgame powerhouse or being developed too similarly to the Soulguides.

I feel like in practice the Vow of Vengeance draft I posted would still be used in early to mid game, and Vow of Vengeance would just encourage you to play her more cautiously while being a little more aggressive with your other heroes.

Also, AoE specials are typically much more useful in early to mid game which would also discourage her from being used solely as an endgame powerhouse.

Pumpkin_King
June 29th, 2020, 04:25 PM
I don't like that version of Protector, I'm sorry. She's already doing too much, and makes Raelin too strong.

Someone suggested her getting an extra defense near/around a wounded Hero. Could we go with that just for theme?

Captain Stupendous
June 29th, 2020, 08:37 PM
I don't like that version of Protector, I'm sorry. She's already doing too much, and makes Raelin too strong.

Someone suggested her getting an extra defense near/around a wounded Hero. Could we go with that just for theme?

While I like this idea in theory, the only thing that gives me pause is the power in context of the rest of the set. Right now, 4 out of 12 units have Attack or Defense stats that can fluctuate (Rhox, Sorin, Ukushisa, Tetsuo, and a fifth if you count Velkhor's Spirit). While I wouldn't necessarily oppose a power like this, I do think we need to be careful when nearly half of the units we're designing incorporate Attack or Defense buffs into the design.

Confred
July 3rd, 2020, 10:46 PM
I was thinking about the incorporation of Majestic Fires Special Attack

What if:

When attacking with Majestic Fires Special Attack, any or all figures adjacent to ~ are also affected by the attack.

flameslayer93
July 3rd, 2020, 11:58 PM
I was thinking about the incorporation of Majestic Fires Special Attack

What if:

When attacking with Majestic Fires Special Attack, any or all figures adjacent to ~ are also affected by the attack.

Its a cool power, but we want to avoid synergy with units who donít exist in the Master Set.

Pumpkin_King
July 6th, 2020, 06:19 PM
Especially one so rare as him.

This serves as a bump. Where are we at here?

Pumpkin_King
July 6th, 2020, 07:08 PM
Reading back - I think we have a vague idea of what we want, but we can't nail down the proper mix of abilities.

flameslayer93
July 6th, 2020, 08:35 PM
Reading back - I think we have a vague idea of what we want, but we can't nail down the proper mix of abilities.

This.

Amarant
July 8th, 2020, 12:50 PM
Lots to catch up on here!

If I'm being honest, I'm completely neutral about the size change ability. I think it adds something to the figure but I'm not sure that it adds so much that it justifies the complexity it would introduce to the design.

I think the aforementioned draft from Zetsubo and Pumpkin King is pretty solid, even if you do add the size changing ability.

Karina Vade, Emperorís Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.


SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.

Confred
July 8th, 2020, 08:59 PM
Lots to catch up on here!

If I'm being honest, I'm completely neutral about the size change ability. I think it adds something to the figure but I'm not sure that it adds so much that it justifies the complexity it would introduce to the design.

I think the aforementioned draft from Zetsubo and Pumpkin King is pretty solid, even if you do add the size changing ability.

Karina Vade, Emperorís Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.


SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.

Looks like we're getting there, but Sacred Guardian is a bit complicated.
How about:
Before taking a turn, Nahiri adds 1 to her Attack for each wound marker on adjacent friendly heroes to a maximum of 3 additional Attack.
or:
When attacking, Nahiri rolls one additional attack die for each wound marker on adjacent friendly heroes to a maximum of 3 additional attack dice.

Captain Stupendous
July 9th, 2020, 12:15 AM
I do think we're almost there! I agree that Sacred Guardian could be simplified down a little, but I do think that its a promising direction for a third power. How would people feel about this as a rough draft?


Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Champion / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 (or 6?) Attack / 3 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

SACRED GUARDIAN (or OATHSWORN GUARDIAN?)
If Katryn ends her turn adjacent to a friendly unique hero, Katryn may attack 1 additional time with her normal or special attack.

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON (or DRAGON'S BLESSING)
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 5 instead of what is on this card.


As I've mentioned before, the only thing that causes me to hesitate from supporting a conditional buff to Attack or Defense is the figure in context of the rest of the set. Right now, 4 out of 12 units have Attack or Defense stats that can fluctuate (Rhox, Sorin, Ukushisa, Tetsuo, and a fifth if you count Velkhor's Spirit). While I wouldn't necessarily oppose a power like this, I do think we need to be careful when nearly half of the units we're designing incorporate Attack or Defense buffs into the design. Personally I'd prefer to see a power that allows her to conditionally take another turn or make another attack.

Zetsubo
July 12th, 2020, 02:09 AM
I'd much rather a conditional double attack than a buff to her already offensive stats. Oathsworn Guardian is a great name for the ability. Should she be able to use her SA twice in a turn, or should we limit the SA to only once even with a second attack?

Captain Stupendous
July 12th, 2020, 11:29 AM
I'd much rather a conditional double attack than a buff to her already offensive stats. Oathsworn Guardian is a great name for the ability. Should she be able to use her SA twice in a turn, or should we limit the SA to only once even with a second attack?

Since there's not a strong thematic reason for why she wouldn't be able to use her special attack, personally I think its a little more thematic for her to be able to use either. However, that's just a slight preference and I'd be fine either way.

A couple other thoughts I've had for the figure, allowing SACRED/OATHSWORN GUARDIAN to trigger as long as Katryn was within X clear sight spaces of a friendly hero rather than adjacent could give her a little more flexibility, especially as a melee figure. I wouldn't necessarily advocate for this change right now, more just something to keep in mind for the future.

Another possibility I had for ASPECT OF THE DRAGON would be to change it to the following:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Whenever Katryn or a friendly adjacent figure is chosen for a special power, you may treat that figure's size as Huge instead of what is on their army card.


That could make the ability a little more relevant, and also reinforces her theme and playstyle as an aggressive protector. As with the previous suggestion, I'm undecided as to whether it would improve the design, but just wanted to throw it out as an option as we're dialing in her powerset.

Pumpkin_King
July 23rd, 2020, 09:05 PM
We'd have to see how changing the size of other figures works out, buit it seems fine on the surface.

Conditional double attack seems good - what's the simplest trigger we can give it that hits theme?

flameslayer93
July 24th, 2020, 07:21 AM
I’d rather [Aspect] only affect her, let her keep that one trick.

What if she only gets double attack if she has X wounds? It would imply that she soaks up hits for others and bites back.

Captain Stupendous
July 25th, 2020, 11:49 AM
We'd have to see how changing the size of other figures works out, buit it seems fine on the surface.

Conditional double attack seems good - what's the simplest trigger we can give it that hits theme?

I don't feel that strongly that it would be better for Aspect of the Dragon to affect adjacent allies. If Flameslayer isn't a fan of it, let's just leave it as only affecting her.

I think there's several relatively simple triggers for a conditional double attack that could work well. Just throwing out several to get us started:

A draft of Flameslayer's idea:

OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn, if there are three or more wound markers on this card, you may attack one additional time with Katryn's normal or special attack.

Another simple option:

OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn, if Katryn is within 4 clear sight spaces of a friendly unique hero [?with at least one wound marker on its card?], you may attack one additional time with Katryn's normal or special attack.

Or

OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn, if Katryn is adjacent to [Or perhaps "began her turn adjacent to"?] a friendly unique hero, you may attack one additional time with Katryn's normal or special attack.

Also, while I like the name Oathsworn Guardian I'd still be interested in discussing other options if people have other ideas.

Pumpkin_King
July 28th, 2020, 07:37 PM
For the third power, we could do "began or ended her turn". I'd be up for either that trigger, or just wound-based DA. Between those two, how do we feel?

Captain Stupendous
July 29th, 2020, 09:56 AM
Your suggested wording would look something like this, right?

OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn, if Katryn began or ended her move adjacent to a friendly unique hero, you may attack one additional time with Katryn's normal or special attack.

This seems a bit more complex than just requiring one or the other, but I think the increased flexibility will likely be worth it. Either way, I think this power fits the "protector" theme more than a wound-based DA, and is also more tactically interesting.

Pumpkin_King
July 30th, 2020, 06:02 PM
Yeah, I think that would work and hit theme. That works for me. Thoughts, everyone else?

flameslayer93
August 1st, 2020, 08:15 AM
Looks good to me.


Edit: Thinking on it, this could make her pair with Dienekes quite well. Nice little "nonsynergy" synergy right there.

Captain Stupendous
August 13th, 2020, 05:34 PM
Been a little quiet over here. I've put together an updated draft incorporating what it seemed like most people wanted based on the recent discussion. If anyone would like anything changed though I think now is still a great time for that.

Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Champion / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn, if Katryn began or ended her move adjacent to a friendly unique hero, you may attack one additional time with Katryn's normal or special attack.

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size as Huge instead of what is on this card.

And here's a mockup for reference
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/703748880726229035/743568786363514900/Katryn-Vade_Emperors_Chosen_2.jpg

Pumpkin_King
August 13th, 2020, 05:47 PM
The card does look busy, but we've been doing really good on cutting down complexity elsewhere. Plus the third power is kind of a formality, really.

It looks good to me. Should we call a vote for the end of Design, since we were discussing a public feedback phase?

NecroBlade
August 24th, 2020, 07:44 PM
Wasn't there talk of choosing only either before or after for Oathsworn Guardian? I get that you're trying not to downplay her sword SA, as that seems like a pretty iconic/character-defining power, but I'm also not a fan of mixing normal and special attacks in a Master Set. IMO it's better off more simply, "After attacking normally, if Katryn is adjacent to a friendly Unique Hero, she may attack normally one additional time."

Pumpkin_King
August 29th, 2020, 03:40 PM
That would cut down on the wording, for sure.

NecroBlade
August 30th, 2020, 05:21 PM
And it's also just fine thematically. She's doubling her efforts to protect the unit she's standing right next to. That sounds like an Oathsworn Guardian to me. Anything on top of that is bells and whistles, IMO. (Not to mention the memory issue of taking her full turn, plus any triggers from movements, attacks, and any other powers, then looking all the way back to where she was before she moved to remember whether or not she was next to anyone.)

Astroking112
August 30th, 2020, 06:20 PM
We ran into some similar trouble with the Velnesh Alphas, who originally could teleport either before or after moving. We decided to change it to only after moving in order to cut down on complexity. I think that Katryn Vade is already significantly more complicated than they were. :2cents:

If the fear is that limiting Oathsworn Guardian to normal attacks will take away some of the emphasis from her Special Attack, then it would be easy enough to limit it with something along these lines:
OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn Vade, if there is an adjacent friendly Unique Hero, she may attack one additional time with her normal attack.
That lets her still use her Special Attack and then attack again, just not her Special Attack twice in a row. I'd imagine in many cases that getting two attacks of 5 will be better than her Special Attack and one normal attack, though.

Captain Stupendous
August 30th, 2020, 08:30 PM
We ran into some similar trouble with the Velnesh Alphas, who originally could teleport either before or after moving. We decided to change it to only after moving in order to cut down on complexity. I think that Katryn Vade is already significantly more complicated than they were. :2cents:

If the fear is that limiting Oathsworn Guardian to normal attacks will take away some of the emphasis from her Special Attack, then it would be easy enough to limit it with something along these lines:
OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn Vade, if there is an adjacent friendly Unique Hero, she may attack one additional time with her normal attack.
That lets her still use her Special Attack and then attack again, just not her Special Attack twice in a row. I'd imagine in many cases that getting two attacks of 5 will be better than her Special Attack and one normal attack, though.

I can get on board with this change. I think that limiting Oathsworn to ending her turn will make it much more situational, but I don't think thats a bad thing necessarily, and I think its worth it to make the power cleaner. I'm also fine with limiting the extra attack to just a normal attack.

Pumpkin_King
September 8th, 2020, 04:53 PM
IT's a dial we can turn, now that we have a skeleton of an idea. Any other objections?

flameslayer93
September 27th, 2020, 10:18 AM
The after moving version is my preferred one was well.

Mixing normal and special attacks isn't a guarenteed no-no, and it will likely give the SA some more game-time.

flameslayer93
October 13th, 2020, 02:06 PM
Coming back to Katryn, does 140 sound reasonable here? 2 attacks of 5 or an AoE + big attack hits turn has some handy uses for destroying large defense figures and little hordes of goblins or whatever.

Also, Pumpkin_King can you update the OP?

Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Champion / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

140 points

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

OATHSWORN GUARDIAN
After attacking with Katryn Vade, if there is an adjacent friendly Unique Hero, she may attack one additional time with her normal attack.

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size as Huge instead of what is on this card.

Pumpkin_King
October 13th, 2020, 09:28 PM
Okay, OP should be updated. Let me know if I missed anything.

NecroBlade
October 18th, 2020, 01:27 PM
Just a thought that occurred to me: Katryn could make a pretty decent pair with Dienekes. He can Tether figures together for her Dragonheart Blade (though he'll be affected, too). While she's next to him his Combat Challenge protects her while he's also triggering Oathsworn Guardian. Pretty cool to have some light synergy like that in the Master Set.

Captain Stupendous
October 18th, 2020, 10:59 PM
Just a thought that occurred to me: Katryn could make a pretty decent pair with Dienekes. He can Tether figures together for her Dragonheart Blade (though he'll be affected, too). While she's next to him his Combat Challenge protects her while he's also triggering Oathsworn Guardian. Pretty cool to have some light synergy like that in the Master Set.

Yep, its fun to see light synergy like this finding its way into the master set. I think its also worth noting that Katryn may also work as a decent counterdraft to Dienekes, as depending on how the wording for Aspect of the Dragon ends up being finalized it may allow her to ignore Tether of Logos.

Scytale
October 23rd, 2020, 03:50 PM
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size as Huge instead of what is on this card.
This really doesn't work from a rules perspective. Sometimes figures are clearly chosen for special powers, sometimes clearly not, sometimes not clearly either. Basically, there are no rules that define whether or not something is "chosen" when it comes to powers. It seems like something you want to work with a specific power; just make it work for that power.

Captain Stupendous
October 23rd, 2020, 04:41 PM
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size as Huge instead of what is on this card.
This really doesn't work from a rules perspective. Sometimes figures are clearly chosen for special powers, sometimes clearly not, sometimes not clearly either. Basically, there are no rules that define whether or not something is "chosen" when it comes to powers. It seems like something you want to work with a specific power; just make it work for that power.

Hmmm, I can see how as currently worded it could be a bit murky rules-wise. There's not a specific power that I had in mind when I came up with it. The goal was to make a defensive power that also tied in to her thematically channeling the spirit of a dragon. Also, within the context of the MS I like how it adds another "huge" figure besides Ozuul to interact with powers that care about a figure's size.

Do you think that there's a way to make something like this work, or does it truly need to be scrapped? Since its already a somewhat niche ability, ideally I would like for it to affect as many situations as possible, but I agree that the primary concern is nailing down wording that is rock-solid rules-wise, if that's even possible. Basically what I want to happen mechanically is for Katryn to be able to enjoy the immunities that come with being a huge figure without actually being huge. It's a pretty simple idea conceptually, but tricky to word in a way that's consistent with the rules. I think it would be a shame if it just didn't work mechanically; when I showed Katryn to infectedsloth Aspect of the Dragon was one of his favorite parts of the design, and I think the MS meta would benefit from having two "huge" figures.

Scytale
October 23rd, 2020, 04:56 PM
Hmm. This might, maybe work:
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers or glyphs.It's still weird, though, and there may be problems I'm not able to come up with at the moment. I'll think on it.

At the very least, it causes potential odd interactions. For example, if another figure had the following:
BEAST LORD
All adjacent friendly Huge figures roll and one dice when attacking or defending.And then Nahiri was attacked by a figure with Giant Killer. Nahiri could choose to be Huge for Beast Lord, and Medium for Giant Killer, simultaneously. Alternatively, size could be something turned on/off, but the timing of the switch is difficult, enough so that things like "for the duration of an attack" just won't work.

Captain Stupendous
October 23rd, 2020, 05:19 PM
Hmm. This might, maybe work:
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers or glyphs.It's still weird, though, and there may be problems I'm not able to come up with at the moment. I'll think on it.

At the very least, it causes potential odd interactions. For example, if another figure had the following:
BEAST LORD
All adjacent friendly Huge figures roll and one dice when attacking or defending.And then Nahiri was attacked by a figure with Giant Killer. Nahiri could choose to be Huge for Beast Lord, and Medium for Giant Killer, simultaneously. Alternatively, size could be something turned on/off, but the timing of the switch is difficult, enough so that things like "for the duration of an attack" just won't work.

If that wording works, that would be my preferred version of the power. I do also think the on/off angle could be tenable as well. Would something like this work?

Aspect of the Dragon
During any figure's turn, you may choose to treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers or glyphs for the remainder of the turn.

By making it apply for the remainder of the turn, I think that would fix any weird edge cases where she's simultaneously Medium and Huge?

Scytale
October 23rd, 2020, 05:24 PM
Aspect of the Dragon
During any figure's turn, you may choose to treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers or glyphs for the remainder of the turn.By making it apply for the remainder of the turn, I think that would fix any weird edge cases where she's simultaneously Medium and Huge?
That has problems with start time, which is much more troublesome than end time. Could you say that Nahiri is Huge after Giant Killer doesn't work, then boost up to Huge for Beast Lord's defense bonus? It isn't clear. And that's just one simple example; I'm sure nastier ones exist. You could try to force the choice to be "at the start of any figure's turn," but then you have two problems: timing with other start-of-turn powers and having to remember to designate Nahiri's size at the start of every single turn of the game (lest an annoying opponent pulls the "you didn't say!" card in the middle of a turn).

flameslayer93
October 23rd, 2020, 05:27 PM
What if she's always considered huge?

Captain Stupendous
October 23rd, 2020, 05:29 PM
Aspect of the Dragon
During any figure's turn, you may choose to treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers or glyphs for the remainder of the turn.By making it apply for the remainder of the turn, I think that would fix any weird edge cases where she's simultaneously Medium and Huge?
That has problems with start time, which is much more troublesome than end time. Could you say that Nahiri is Huge after Giant Killer doesn't work, then boost up to Huge for Beast Lord's defense bonus? It isn't clear. And that's just one simple example; I'm sure nastier ones exist. You could try to force the choice to be "at the start of any figure's turn," but then you have two problems: timing with other start-of-turn powers and having to remember to designate Nahiri's size at the start of every single turn of the game (lest an annoying opponent pulls the "you didn't say!" card in the middle of a turn).

Yeah, I was trying to avoid "at the start of any figure's turn" precisely to avoid the memory issue. Here's my next stab at it:

During any figure's turn, you may choose to treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards for the remainder of the turn.

I realize this doesn't completely solve the timing issues, but I think it would probably greatly reduce the number of edge-cases?

Captain Stupendous
October 23rd, 2020, 05:31 PM
What if she's always considered huge?

That would certainly be one way to do it, although it begs the question of why she's not just Huge instead of Medium. I don't like how that would be a power that exists solely to thematically justify something that is otherwise mechanically identical to just making her Huge instead of Medium.

I also like how this version of the power feels slightly different than just being huge, because she can still benefit from medium synergies on friendly cards.

Scytale
October 23rd, 2020, 05:36 PM
During any figure's turn, you may choose to treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards for the remainder of the turn.I realize this doesn't completely solve the timing issues, but I think it would probably greatly reduce the number of edge-cases?
This does not address the timing issues I wrote about previously. It also doesn't solve the memory mechanic. It even includes all the problems that a "start of turn" version would have, since the decision could be make at the start of a turn.

Allowing the decision separately for each power, ironically, solves all these problems, but does make it weird thematically.

What if she's always considered huge?
I thought of that. Then just make the size value Huge. Of course, that begs all sorts of thematic questions.

Captain Stupendous
October 23rd, 2020, 05:55 PM
So how about:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards.


That should clear up many of the edge cases regarding timing, as I'm guessing it would be relatively rare for her to be affected by two different enemy abilities that care about size at the same time.

If that still doesn't work, I think we could safely go with:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards.


Always on, but functionally different from just making her Huge instead of Medium since she can still benefit from friendly Medium synergy. I would prefer for her to be able to pick and choose what enemy abilities she's considered to be Huge for, but if that's too difficult to make work I think this might be a viable alternative?

Scytale
October 23rd, 2020, 06:43 PM
So how about:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards.
That should clear up many of the edge cases regarding timing, as I'm guessing it would be relatively rare for her to be affected by two different enemy abilities that care about size at the same time.

If that still doesn't work, I think we could safely go with:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards.
Always on, but functionally different from just making her Huge instead of Medium since she can still benefit from friendly Medium synergy. I would prefer for her to be able to pick and choose what enemy abilities she's considered to be Huge for, but if that's too difficult to make work I think this might be a viable alternative?
The second means she's susceptible to enemy powers that affect Huge, like Giant Killer. I don't think there's any problem in allowing the owner to choose which, though like I said, I haven't thought through everything yet.

I also don't think it's a problem that the owner can choose for friendly powers either. It does cause thematic oddities like the theoretical situation I described, but sometimes it's best to remember the phrase "game not simulation."

Captain Stupendous
October 23rd, 2020, 07:12 PM
So how about:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards.
That should clear up many of the edge cases regarding timing, as I'm guessing it would be relatively rare for her to be affected by two different enemy abilities that care about size at the same time.

If that still doesn't work, I think we could safely go with:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
Treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers on enemy army cards.
Always on, but functionally different from just making her Huge instead of Medium since she can still benefit from friendly Medium synergy. I would prefer for her to be able to pick and choose what enemy abilities she's considered to be Huge for, but if that's too difficult to make work I think this might be a viable alternative?
The second means she's susceptible to enemy powers that affect Huge, like Giant Killer. I don't think there's any problem in allowing the owner to choose which, though like I said, I haven't thought through everything yet.

I also don't think it's a problem that the owner can choose for friendly powers either. It does cause thematic oddities like the theoretical situation I described, but sometimes it's best to remember the phrase "game not simulation."

Gotcha. Personally I'm fine with a little bit of thematic oddity, especially if its relatively rare to even come up. Thanks for taking the time to think through it with me, and for bearing with all of my different suggestions :)

Pumpkin_King
October 25th, 2020, 04:02 PM
I'd rather we didn't just make her size Huge - I'd dislike that so much I'd just prefer to drop it entirely if we can't make it work otherwise.

NecroBlade
October 25th, 2020, 04:55 PM
I don't actually have a problem with the below, outside of feeling weird because it's never been done:

ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers.


Playing Nahiri going to be like:

https://i.imgflip.com/4jsvuw.jpg

Captain Stupendous
October 25th, 2020, 06:25 PM
I'd rather we didn't just make her size Huge - I'd dislike that so much I'd just prefer to drop it entirely if we can't make it work otherwise.

I agree. However, I'm hopeful that this will prove to be workable.


ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Nahiri's size as Huge for any special powers.

Pumpkin_King
October 25th, 2020, 06:32 PM
Yep, I think that'll work if it's feasible for editing. I don't mind her being able to "switch" it on and off like in the example Scy described.