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All Your Pie
June 22nd, 2019, 02:29 AM
The Book of Ukushia Pride

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/567009548041453579/567020053908815922/image0.jpg

Printer-Friendly PDF

UTGAR
UKUSHISA PRIDE
Ukushisa
Unique Squad
Hunters
Wild
LARGE 4

LIFE 1
MOVE 7
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 4

POINTS 90

Combined Heat
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, roll one additional die for each adjacent Ukushisa Pride

Lava Resistant
Ukushisa Pride figures never roll for molten lava damage or lava field damage and they do not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

Editing: Complete (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2332200#post2332200)

Playtesting (old version)
Test 1 (The Long Eared Bat) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2333112&postcount=140)
Test 2 (The Long Eared Bat) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2333366&postcount=146)
Test 3 (The Long Eared Bat) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2333370&postcount=147)
Test 4 (All Your Pie) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2335443&postcount=148)
Test 5 (kevindola) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2337601&postcount=153)

(New version)

The figures used for this unit are the Blazing Firecats from Arena of the Planeswalkers


Character Bio: TBA

-Rulings and Clarifications-
Q: Could the Ukushisa Pride use Inflame if one of them is on one water space and one non-water space?
A: No.

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA

The Long eared bat
June 22nd, 2019, 04:54 AM
How about giving them a death strike ability.

Lasting burn: When a (blazing firecat) receives enough wounds to be destroyed, before removing that (blazing firecat) you may attack every figure adjacent the (blazing fire cat). Roll attack dice separately for each figure. Add an additional attack die for each previously destroyed (blazing fire cat).

NecroBlade
June 22nd, 2019, 12:56 PM
Out of turn attacks are generally avoided so they don't create weird interactions or loops. If you want to go that direction, you could model it after Dying Swipe from the Frost Giant.

For consideration, here's an early draft of powers that was partially discussed in the Discord:

FIRST STRIKE
When Order Marker 1 is revealed on the , add 2 to their Move number and 1 extra attack die for that turn.

Borrowed from the Varkaanan Swiftfangs, it also pays homage to their Magic roots.

[B]WATER WEAKNESS
A on a water space rolls 2 fewer defense dice.

Alternatively "Negative Element" from the Fire Elemental that completely eliminates their Defense on water.

[B]LAVA RESISTANT
[Blazing Firecats] never roll for molten lava damage or lava field damage and they do not have to stop in molten lava spaces.

This one kinda feels like a must-include.

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 02:20 PM
Small idea - it was brought up by long eared bat that they could be Moltarns.

All Your Pie
June 23rd, 2019, 12:22 AM
Moltarns as a species means they'd be native to Valhalla, which is interesting. Seems like a pretty good idea.

I'm not sure why, but some kind of vengeance power like Long Eared Bat suggested seems very appropriate here to me. I had been tossing around something that lets you temporarily bring back your destroyed Firecats every time you take a turn with them, but I'm not sure that's particularly workable.

My main concern is that getting one revenge attack for each firecat seems very strong, and I worry about designing a unit that's only real purpose is to charge in and die. I'll mull this over for a bit and see if I come up with anything.

The Long eared bat
June 23rd, 2019, 04:23 AM
What about this: At the start of the firecats turn, each firecat may attack an additional time for each previously destroyed firecat.

Captain Stupendous
June 23rd, 2019, 11:23 AM
I like the ideas tossed around here so far! Here's something else, just for consideration:

BLAZING FIRECATS
1 Life
6 Move
1 Range
2 Attack
2 Defense

Dying Flame
The Blazing Firecats start the game with four Flaming counters on their army card. The Blazing Firecats get +1 Attack and Defense for every Flaming counter on their card. After taking a turn with the Blazing Firecats and after the end of every round, remove a Flaming counter from their army card.

The Flame Rekindled
At the start of every round, before rolling for initiative, you may roll the d20. If you roll a ?15? or higher, you may place up to four flaming counters on this card. This card can hold a maximum of four flaming counters.

The specific mechanics could be fine tuned, but I think the general concept could be fun. The closest comparison I think would be the Anubians. Maybe too high variance, but that also feels kinda appropriate for a fire based squad.

lefton4ya
June 24th, 2019, 12:16 PM
Out of turn attacks are generally avoided so they don't create weird interactions or loops. If you want to go that direction, you could model it after Dying Swipe from the Frost Giant.

For consideration, here's an early draft of powers that was partially discussed in the Discord:

FIRST STRIKE
When Order Marker 1 is revealed on the , add 2 to their Move number and 1 extra attack die for that turn.

Borrowed from the Varkaanan Swiftfangs, it also pays homage to their Magic roots.

[B]WATER WEAKNESS
A on a water space rolls 2 fewer defense dice.

Alternatively "Negative Element" from the Fire Elemental that completely eliminates their Defense on water.

[B]LAVA RESISTANT
[Blazing Firecats] never roll for molten lava damage or lava field damage and they do not have to stop in molten lava spaces.

This one kinda feels like a must-include.
I agree that Water Weakness and Lava Resistant are almost required. Also IMHO these guys should be 7 move (or 8 without a move power), as they seem really fast. For 3rd power 1st strike seems OK, although maybe change it slightly:
STRIKE FIRST
Each [Blazing Firecat] that did not start it's turn engaged may move 1 additional space and may roll 1 extra attack die for that turn.

Wording could be cleaned up a bit, but this to me seems more like a first strike ability.

Scytale
June 24th, 2019, 06:54 PM
What about this: At the start of the firecats turn, each firecat may attack an additional time for each previously destroyed firecat.
Changing around the turn order is also problematic, so no attacks at the start of turn. Allowing for extra normal attacks is ok, though odd that they are better off with one of them dead.

I like the ideas tossed around here so far! Here's something else, just for consideration:

BLAZING FIRECATS
1 Life
6 Move
1 Range
2 Attack
2 Defense

Dying Flame
The Blazing Firecats start the game with four Flaming counters on their army card. The Blazing Firecats get +1 Attack and Defense for every Flaming counter on their card. After taking a turn with the Blazing Firecats and after the end of every round, remove a Flaming counter from their army card.

The Flame Rekindled
At the start of every round, before rolling for initiative, you may roll the d20. If you roll a ?15? or higher, you may place up to four flaming counters on this card. This card can hold a maximum of four flaming counters.

The specific mechanics could be fine tuned, but I think the general concept could be fun. The closest comparison I think would be the Anubians. Maybe too high variance, but that also feels kinda appropriate for a fire based squad.
Attack/Defense of 6 is too high. Other than that, the idea is ok, but it doesn't feel right that they simply rekindle themselves automatically. It feels like that should be a power on another character, a leader or cheerleader unit.

Out of turn attacks are generally avoided so they don't create weird interactions or loops. If you want to go that direction, you could model it after Dying Swipe from the Frost Giant.

For consideration, here's an early draft of powers that was partially discussed in the Discord:

FIRST STRIKE
When Order Marker 1 is revealed on the , add 2 to their Move number and 1 extra attack die for that turn.

Borrowed from the Varkaanan Swiftfangs, it also pays homage to their Magic roots.

[B]WATER WEAKNESS
A on a water space rolls 2 fewer defense dice.

Alternatively "Negative Element" from the Fire Elemental that completely eliminates their Defense on water.

[B]LAVA RESISTANT
[Blazing Firecats] never roll for molten lava damage or lava field damage and they do not have to stop in molten lava spaces.

This one kinda feels like a must-include.
I agree that Water Weakness and Lava Resistant are almost required. Also IMHO these guys should be 7 move (or 8 without a move power), as they seem really fast. For 3rd power 1st strike seems OK, although maybe change it slightly:
STRIKE FIRST
Each [Blazing Firecat] that did not start it's turn engaged may move 1 additional space and may roll 1 extra attack die for that turn.Wording could be cleaned up a bit, but this to me seems more like a first strike ability.
This makes for a pretty good design. I prefer First Strike over Strike First. First Strike adds to gameplay in that it makes decision points for both players and opponents. Strike First doesn't really change up any battle tactics, it's just a bonus you get sometimes.

Scytale
June 24th, 2019, 07:03 PM
I also do not like making them Moltarn. Wolves aren't Humans. Worse, these do not look like Moltarn, which are rocky.

Astroking112
June 25th, 2019, 03:13 AM
I agree with Scytale. Despite them being fiery, they do not look like Moltarns at all, and it would be a stretch to call them that. Considering that it wouldn't do much other than open the way for some loose Moltarn synergy in the future, I don't see a compelling excuse for it.

The Long eared bat
June 25th, 2019, 06:28 AM
I also do not like making them Moltarn. Wolves aren't Humans. Worse, these do not look like Moltarn, which are rocky.
Do you think Elemental would suit them better.

Scytale
June 25th, 2019, 10:32 AM
I also do not like making them Moltarn. Wolves aren't Humans. Worse, these do not look like Moltarn, which are rocky.
Do you think Elemental would suit them better.
I am not a fan of that either. It doesn't fit the already-established look and theme of 'Scape. It also doesn't work due to Kurrok, who gives turns to "small or medium Elementals" (not Heroes). You cannot take a turn with a single member of a squad, so a squad can never be Elemental.

lefton4ya
June 25th, 2019, 10:54 AM
Yea I don't like Elemental or Moltarn - How about Panthera or Puma - the two main Genus of "Big Cats", I could see someone making a Lion or Cougar Heroscape figure eventually and using these guys in some kind of synergy. Just think of them as Big Cats on fire - Aka "Fire Cats". Also, FIRST STRIKE goes well with them as I picture them as doing a short sprint and pounce, but only able to once a round.

Which "Big Cat" do they look like most? We can name them after it, AKA Blazing Cougars or Fire Leopards .

Astroking112
June 25th, 2019, 11:13 AM
Elemental could work because they look like large figures, so Kurrok wouldn't break the game with them. A new race would work just as fine, though.

Scytale
June 25th, 2019, 11:40 AM
Elemental could work because they look like large figures, so Kurrok wouldn't break the game with them. A new race would work just as fine, though.
Who has these figures so we can see a size comparison?

lefton4ya
June 25th, 2019, 11:49 AM
They are Large! Due to that there is not Kurrok synergy, so we might as well give up making them Elementals.
http://i.imgur.com/DFV50sk.jpg
https://cf.geekdo-images.com/camo/0caced74867b62c033ddc36f7da7cc80fe6c665d/687474703a2f2f69313033392e70686f746f6275636b65742e636f6d2f616c62756d73 2f613437382f6a6f6e616e6a656c6c6f323031362f4172656e612532306f6625323074 6865253230506c616e657377616c6b657273253230253230536f6c6974616972652532 305363656e6172696f2f4453435f303032305f7a7073696b766f7772766b2e6a7067

Scytale
June 25th, 2019, 12:41 PM
They are Large! Due to that there is not Kurrok synergy, so we might as well give up making them Elementals.
I am still against making them Elementals, as they are too unlike existing Elementals.

They are definitely Large. So we have more freedom with big stats.

The Long eared bat
June 25th, 2019, 01:19 PM
Lions are the only big cat that hunt as a group. As a name what about: Ukushisa Pride.
Ukushisa is Zulu for blazing.

All Your Pie
June 25th, 2019, 03:53 PM
8/1/3/5 stats or something similar would bring these figures into a similar line with the Deathstalkers or Marrden Hounds. Pairing that with some kind of conditional attack boost would make them occasional menacers who are also pretty decent blockers the rest of the time.

Hereís a spitball idea, using Captain Stupendousís concept:

Inflame
Start the game with 3 red flame markers on this army card. Before attacking, you may remove a flame marker to add 1 to the attack value of this card. If there are no flame markers on this army card, subtract 3 from its defense value. At the end of each round, if any of your (figure name) are on a molten lava or lava field space, you may place a flame marker on this card, to a maximum of 3.

Extinguish
If one of your (figure name) enters a water space, remove all flame markers from this army card.

Lava Resistant

NecroBlade
June 25th, 2019, 10:24 PM
8/1/3/5 stats or something similar would bring these figures into a similar line with the Deathstalkers or Marrden Hounds.
I did in fact envision them (with the First Strike/Water Weakness/Lava Resistant power set) with Deathstalker stats. Would be a good homage to the other hounds of 'scape.


Inflame
Start the game with 3 red flame markers on this army card. Before attacking, you may remove a flame marker to add 1 to the attack value of this card. If there are no flame markers on this army card, subtract 3 from its defense value. At the end of each round, if any of your (figure name) are on a molten lava or lava field space, you may place a flame marker on this card, to a maximum of 3.

Presumably the idea is to use the wound cubes from AotP as red markers? Otherwise there are none to work with. EDIT: The "sun" markers are an option. Just need to make sure there are enough markers to cover everything in the set that needs it (hence the suggestion of the red "wound" markers. I know VC leaves the type of marker up to the player any more, but this is a Master Set and should both contain everything needed and follow in the footsteps of RotV (grenade markers).

Astroking112
June 25th, 2019, 11:07 PM
The Shadows Over Innistrad set comes with some markers with a sun on them, if I'm not mistaken. I would imagine that those can work for Flame Markers, albeit they are from a separate box. It could always be left vague as to what the markers specifically are to let people use their own, like the VC designs with markers, but I think that it would be fine to plan on using some of the ones from SOI.

Fakeraistlin
June 26th, 2019, 01:56 AM
What about this: At the start of the firecats turn, each firecat may attack an additional time for each previously destroyed firecat.
Changing around the turn order is also problematic, so no attacks at the start of turn. Allowing for extra normal attacks is ok, though odd that they are better off with one of them dead.

I like the ideas tossed around here so far! Here's something else, just for consideration:

BLAZING FIRECATS
1 Life
6 Move
1 Range
2 Attack
2 Defense

Dying Flame
The Blazing Firecats start the game with four Flaming counters on their army card. The Blazing Firecats get +1 Attack and Defense for every Flaming counter on their card. After taking a turn with the Blazing Firecats and after the end of every round, remove a Flaming counter from their army card.

The Flame Rekindled
At the start of every round, before rolling for initiative, you may roll the d20. If you roll a ?15? or higher, you may place up to four flaming counters on this card. This card can hold a maximum of four flaming counters.

The specific mechanics could be fine tuned, but I think the general concept could be fun. The closest comparison I think would be the Anubians. Maybe too high variance, but that also feels kinda appropriate for a fire based squad.
Attack/Defense of 6 is too high. Other than that, the idea is ok, but it doesn't feel right that they simply rekindle themselves automatically. It feels like that should be a power on another character, a leader or cheerleader unit.

Out of turn attacks are generally avoided so they don't create weird interactions or loops. If you want to go that direction, you could model it after Dying Swipe from the Frost Giant.

For consideration, here's an early draft of powers that was partially discussed in the Discord:

FIRST STRIKE
When Order Marker 1 is revealed on the , add 2 to their Move number and 1 extra attack die for that turn.

Borrowed from the Varkaanan Swiftfangs, it also pays homage to their Magic roots.

[B]WATER WEAKNESS
A on a water space rolls 2 fewer defense dice.

Alternatively "Negative Element" from the Fire Elemental that completely eliminates their Defense on water.

[B]LAVA RESISTANT
[Blazing Firecats] never roll for molten lava damage or lava field damage and they do not have to stop in molten lava spaces.

This one kinda feels like a must-include.
I agree that Water Weakness and Lava Resistant are almost required. Also IMHO these guys should be 7 move (or 8 without a move power), as they seem really fast. For 3rd power 1st strike seems OK, although maybe change it slightly:
STRIKE FIRST
Each [Blazing Firecat] that did not start it's turn engaged may move 1 additional space and may roll 1 extra attack die for that turn.Wording could be cleaned up a bit, but this to me seems more like a first strike ability.
This makes for a pretty good design. I prefer First Strike over Strike First. First Strike adds to gameplay in that it makes decision points for both players and opponents. Strike First doesn't really change up any battle tactics, it's just a bonus you get sometimes.



I really like this! Maybe to compensate for their high attack value at the beginning lower the recharge rate:

The Flame Rekindled
At the start of every round, before rolling for initiative, you may roll the d20. If no order markers or X order mark is placed on 'Firecats' If you roll a 1-15 you may place a single counter. ?16-19?, you may place up to two flaming counters on this card. 20 3 counters. This card can hold a maximum of four flaming counters.

Fakeraistlin
June 26th, 2019, 02:03 AM
They are Large! Due to that there is not Kurrok synergy, so we might as well give up making them Elementals.
I am still against making them Elementals, as they are too unlike existing Elementals.

They are definitely Large. So we have more freedom with big stats.

Yeah don't like them as elementals.... How about Hell Cats, type of Demon

Jaur0n
June 26th, 2019, 08:10 PM
I like the idea of calling them Blazing Hell Cats if naming them is one of the things we're talking about.


I like the idea of markers to start the game however I believe those markers should be decision points, and should not be lost or gained through any action other than the decision to use them. I believe we should balance the marker buff around it being a set number of uses. To that end, I'm wondering if we should limit their use to once per turn and buff each cat when using one? If so is +1 move and +1 attach good enough?

Scytale
June 27th, 2019, 10:36 AM
I like the idea of markers to start the game however I believe those markers should be decision points, and should not be lost or gained through any action other than the decision to use them. I believe we should balance the marker buff around it being a set number of uses. To that end, I'm wondering if we should limit their use to once per turn and buff each cat when using one? If so is +1 move and +1 attach good enough?
+1 Move and +1 Attack is pretty darn good for a squad. It would be very tempting to burn through them quickly.

lefton4ya
June 27th, 2019, 01:35 PM
Yea I don't like Elemental or Moltarn - How about Panthera or Puma - the two main Genus of "Big Cats", I could see someone making a Lion or Cougar Heroscape figure eventually and using these guys in some kind of synergy. Just think of them as Big Cats on fire - Aka "Fire Cats"...
Which "Big Cat" do they look like most? We can name them after it, AKA Blazing Cougars or Fire Leopards .

Lions are the only big cat that hunt as a group. As a name what about: Ukushisa Pride.
Ukushisa is Zulu for blazing.
I actually liked The Long eared bat's suggestion for a name. Personally I think Ukushisa Cougars or Fire Leopards is better than Hell cats - IMHO they are not demons from hell just big cats ON FIRE!!! Speaking of which, which general are people leaning? I would prefer not UTGAR as too many Lava Resistant figures come from Utgar and not enough from elsewhere - maybe AQUALLA or ULLAR? However we have to be mindful of the whole AotP set and try to even out the Generals, so maybe the general (and a backstory) is the last thing we decide on.

For Stats is the consensus somewhere around:

1 Life
7/8 Move (less if Markers can buff)
1 Range
2/3 Attack (less if Markers can buff)
4/5 Defense (less if Markers can buff)

As far as powers I guess we are all agreeing on WATER WEAKNESS and LAVA RESISTANT as given, but are debating on FIRST STRIKE or INFLAME/FLAME REKINDLED or other "Counter" power. I really liked All Your Pie's suggestion though

8/1/3/5 stats or something similar would bring these figures into a similar line with the Deathstalkers or Marrden Hounds. Pairing that with some kind of conditional attack boost would make them occasional menacers who are also pretty decent blockers the rest of the time.

Here’s a spitball idea, using Captain Stupendous’s concept:

Inflame
Start the game with 3 red flame markers on this army card. Before attacking, you may remove a flame marker to add 1 to the attack value of this card. If there are no flame markers on this army card, subtract 3 from its defense value. At the end of each round, if any of your (figure name) are on a molten lava or lava field space, you may place a flame marker on this card, to a maximum of 3.

Extinguish
If one of your (figure name) enters a water space, remove all flame markers from this army card.

Jaur0n
June 27th, 2019, 01:55 PM
Lava resistance -I get why this seems/is mandatory, after looking through units, it seems damn near anything fire related unit has it. I agree it's needed.

I personally dislike Water Weakness unless it's a counter to a too strong something else.


If it's just some tacked on thematic thing my concern is we are telling people if the map has lava and no water, this is a good unit. If it has water and no lava, don't use it. That feels bad to me.

lefton4ya
June 27th, 2019, 02:10 PM
Jaur0n: Almost all maps have water - but with this unit having a high move and being double-spaced they can walk over water in most circumstances, so Water Weakness would rarely affect the unit - it is just very thematic. However I would use @All you Pie's Extinguish over Water Weakness. Lava Resistance is almost needed for theme, but that doesn't mean the unit isn't playable on non Lava Maps - just a bonus on them. Basically this unit should be usable on almost any map, just slightly better on lava maps, and slightly worse on maps with a lot of water (swamp water counts)

I just suggested this on (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) that would help with the suggested Inflame power
...
[LAVA CAST] / [OBSIDIAN FIELD]:
All land spaces adjacent to [CN,P] are considered lava field spaces [for special powers and end of the round rolls].

Note: text in brackets is optional for clarity. Helps any Blazing Firecats Synergy that is boosted by lava field, causes end of the round wounds to opponents next to [CN,P], plus assist all LR figures. ...

Scytale
June 27th, 2019, 05:02 PM
As far as powers I guess we are all agreeing on WATER WEAKNESS and LAVA RESISTANT as given, but are debating on FIRST STRIKE or INFLAME/FLAME REKINDLED or other "Counter" power.
No, I do not agree. Not outright at least. If we go with the direction discussed in Chandra's thread that they instead recharge from taking damage from powers that do not damage Lava Resistant figures, then I do not want them to have Lava Resistance (the two powers would clash). Yeah, they would then die in lava. Lava is super, super hot.

If we do not go that direction, I'm perfectly fine with Lava Resistant. I'm also fine with Water Weakness/Negative Element. We need to then have the discipline to restrict ourselves to not putting more than one other bell/whistle on it without really good reason.

All Your Pie
June 27th, 2019, 05:31 PM
My main worry with the charging from fire-based damage direction is that itís a little bit thematically inconsistent. I donít mind them being vulnerable to molten lava, but I do find it somewhat odd that they would be charged by Chandra and Searing Intensity but not by Fire Line or Burning Breath. This is more a fault with prior heroscape designs than it is with us, but itís still kind of an odd failing. It also might be a little too niche for the steps weíd be taking to make it happen.

The thing I do like about the marker direction is that three turns with +1 attack is going to be enough a lot of the time that you might not feel the need to recharge them even if you can. This works out whether or not we make them rechargeable, as the synergy will remain light if they have it but they wonít feel lacking if they donít. That said, I kind of like the interplay between my version of Inflame and Scytaleís alternative to Lava Resistant. You might hesitate to burn your last marker if it costs you survivability, but lowering your defense makes it easier for Chandra to light them up again. That combination also allows us to cut the last clause from Inflame, since the power that lets them absorb fire damage already covers it.

Iím still a little up in the air on this, but Iím curious how everyone else feels here.

Scytale
June 27th, 2019, 05:45 PM
My main worry with the charging from fire-based damage direction is that itís a little bit thematically inconsistent. I donít mind them being vulnerable to molten lava, but I do find it somewhat odd that they would be charged by Chandra and Searing Intensity but not by Fire Line or Burning Breath. This is more a fault with prior heroscape designs than it is with us, but itís still kind of an odd failing.
Personally I don't see it any more thematically inconsistent than adding a Lava Resistance immunity to a power. Figures that can bathe in lava are already killed by Fire Line like everything else, so it has to be magic fire or something. It's an unfortunate side effect of the Heroscape system, which lack damage types.

Pumpkin_King
June 30th, 2019, 01:32 PM
RE: name and general. Hellcats is good, but I also like <something> Pride. Kind of gets across that these are magical animals that just happen to be fire cats.

I also like them as Aquilla, but that’s just me. We’re going to have a lot of Utgar I feel.

Fakeraistlin
July 4th, 2019, 02:06 AM
My main worry with the charging from fire-based damage direction is that it’s a little bit thematically inconsistent. I don’t mind them being vulnerable to molten lava, but I do find it somewhat odd that they would be charged by Chandra and Searing Intensity but not by Fire Line or Burning Breath. This is more a fault with prior heroscape designs than it is with us, but it’s still kind of an odd failing. It also might be a little too niche for the steps we’d be taking to make it happen.

The thing I do like about the marker direction is that three turns with +1 attack is going to be enough a lot of the time that you might not feel the need to recharge them even if you can. This works out whether or not we make them rechargeable, as the synergy will remain light if they have it but they won’t feel lacking if they don’t. That said, I kind of like the interplay between my version of Inflame and Scytale’s alternative to Lava Resistant. You might hesitate to burn your last marker if it costs you survivability, but lowering your defense makes it easier for Chandra to light them up again. That combination also allows us to cut the last clause from Inflame, since the power that lets them absorb fire damage already covers it.

I’m still a little up in the air on this, but I’m curious how everyone else feels here.

In favor of non-recharging counters or recharging counters (maybe random to make it NOT a sure thing every round) over time (innate magic).

Not in favor of recharging via taking fire/molten lava damage or dependency of another unit. Less complexity that way.

Ambivalent of lava resistance.

The Long eared bat
July 4th, 2019, 10:23 AM
In favor of non-recharging counters or recharging counters (maybe random to make it NOT a sure thing every round) over time (innate magic).


I agree with this. With water weakness instead of lowering their defense it could evaporate their recharging counters and when a cat is on a water space it can't recharge.

Fakeraistlin
July 4th, 2019, 01:16 PM
In favor of non-recharging counters or recharging counters (maybe random to make it NOT a sure thing every round) over time (innate magic).


I agree with this. With water weakness instead of lowering their defense it could evaporate their recharging counters and when a cat is on a water space it can't recharge.

Water weakness, like this as well, instead of defense penalty.

Fakeraistlin
July 4th, 2019, 01:22 PM
RE: name and general. Hellcats is good, but I also like <something> Pride. Kind of gets across that these are magical animals that just happen to be fire cats.

I also like them as Aquilla, but thatís just me. Weíre going to have a lot of Utgar I feel.

Maybe not magical afterall...Just an idea...

If not demon , elemental.or magicall .
..maybe is natural evolution ...Micro fusion.....

Combustion Cats..

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 02:30 AM
Color scheme doesn't 100% track general to general, but I think assigning these bright red burning cats to anyone but Utgar seems a little silly.

We've got a solid overall direction here but we're a little divided on the details. Here's some suggestions for what to put in the OP, let me know how these hit y'all.

(Unit name)
Utgar

Elementals (or some sort of made-up race? Sadly Arrow Gruts don't specify heroes for their bonding, so beasts is out of the question.)
Unique Squad
Hunters (mostly a placeholder. Seems a decent option but we can discuss others)
Wild (Feel a bit more solid about this than I do hunters, but still open to discussion)
Large ??

Life 1
Move ? (varies depending on inflame, between 5-8 )
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 5

Points ???

Power 1:
Inflame
Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add (move or attack buff). Optional condition 1: If there are no blaze counters on this army card, subtract X from this card's defense value. Optional condition 2: Something that allows blaze counters to be regained automatically.

(Personally, I like Inflame as a power that either just boosts attack or that grants a substantive move boost in addition to attack. If we do the movement boost, I would rather make it feel really significant by giving the cats base 5 move and having the move be +3 instead of +1. So I like having +3 move +1 attack, or just +1 attack and have a base move of 7 or 8.

I can take or leave optional condition 1. It's cute and adds some tension, but that's all. Optional condition 2 I don't personally care for. It adds another trigger and possibly a D20 roll to the power that overcomplicate it a little too much for my taste.)

Power 2:
Extinguish
Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water space, remove all blaze counters from this army card. (Blaze counters may not be placed on this army card while any of your (figure name's) are on water spaces.)

(Relatively straightforward, mostly flavor here. This power's actual implications depend significantly on how other powers work, so it's not worth discussion much in and of itself.)

Power 3:
Heat Absorption
If a (figure name) would receive one or more wounds from a source that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, ignore those wounds and, if possible, place a blaze counter on this army card.

OR

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.

(Fairly simple choice here. I think heat absorption is kinda neat but won't come up too much in actual play. I worry slightly about it spiking their cost by making them much stronger on lava maps, which won't be present in this master set, but even then it's slow going to build their markers back up. Ultimately that's a good thing, as it means we can balance the design around them having just three markers to spend with Heat Absorption giving them a little more legs in longer games or scenarios rather than standard tournament play.)

lefton4ya
July 5th, 2019, 12:56 PM
All Your Pie I like the powers you suggested above - and think the Inflame should add + attack and +3 move, but maybe with starting move of 6 (Vipers with Venoc warlord have more 9 move too, but maybe that is too fast). Not sure the No markers left condition is needed. I do like Heat Absorbtion as a way to get more markers - would provide synergy with Chandra or any other Fire attackers in your team and is cool and original mechanic that you would attack your own figures to buff them.

I still hate Elemetal as a species as I see them as Big Cats that are either from hell or had a hex/spell on them. Panthera seems generic enough to where eventual synergy with other big cats may arise. Ukushisa Pride was a good suggested name, although I think Fire/Flaming/Blazing to start the name sounds cooler. Wild personality seems perfect, for Class either Hunter or Devourer.

Scytale
July 5th, 2019, 02:05 PM
I agree it would seem wrong to make then anything other than Utgar

Elementals is still a no for me. Let's just make something up, like Blazecats or something. We should decide class and personality once we've determined how the unit plays, unless we're aiming for specific synergies. So far Hunters and Wild are good fits.

I like 3 Attack and +1 from blaze, and 6 Move +2 from blaze.

Option 1 is unnecessary. Running out of blaze markers is already a disadvantage.

I'm against option 2 in general. Without a recharge they are fine as a first-strike unit. Allowing another unit to recharge them makes for really cool unique synergy that allows for an alternate playstyle.

Extinguish is cool.

I love Heat Absorption. It's the most unique form of synergy I've seen in a while. It doesn't make either unit dependent on the other, but clever play with both can bring benefits. It should also apply to lava fields; it may up there cost a bit, but the once-per-round boost available from lava fields won't be a huge swing. Lava Resistance will affect their cost just as much, as it gives immunity to lava fields plus gives them the ability to cross lava.

Jaur0n
July 5th, 2019, 03:10 PM
I like the Ukushisa in the name. Ukushisa Hell Cats or Ukushisa Pride seems good. (I lean toward Hell Cats )

Agree that additional punishment for running out of markers seems unneeded.


Hard no from me on Extinguish


As for power 3, I'd prefer Lava Resistance mostly because I dislike the regen of markers. This particular version of regen (unless I am missing something) seems far too strong. It works with molten lava making it a possible multiple per turn regen and if played correctly on some maps you can park a unit on molten lava and never run out of markers.

What if we tweak Heat Adsorption in a way that they just get a buff for being on that space in addition to not being hurt by it? Possibly limiting it to the unit meeting the requirement itself so the best way to play them isn't to park one in a spot and attack with the other two (or is this what we want them to play like?)

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 03:47 PM
I think the intent was that heat absorption actually not provide immunity or benefit from molten lava. In the wording I posted, thatís accomplished by specifying sources that donít ďwoundĒ figures with Lava Resistant, while Molten Lava is an auto-destroy. That being the case, their best option for marker regen is a 50% chance per cat thatís on lava field at the end of the round. That still could be good, but itís not guaranteed or explosive. Plus, as melee units, any turns they spend camping to regain their markers are probably not turns where they will be able to attack very profitably.

Still, the version that doesnít regen markers at all has its own merit. A squad that can have 8/1/4/5 stats for 3 chosen turns is pretty dangerous.

For Extinguish, I see the power more as flavor text and as a way to be consistent with official fire-based figures like the Fire Elemental that have downside powers for when they enter water. Thematically, I think itís a little difficult to justify not having one. All said, though, Extinguish is a pretty tame downside. Water on most maps can be crossed by double-based figures without them having to stop, and usually covers areas of the map where you wouldnít want to leave a figure anyway. The only exceptions are swamp maps, but even then I donít think the cats become unplayable. Fire Elementals have a much worse downside and still arenít considered all that map dependent.

If we do bring Extinguish and/or heat absorption into testing, rest assured that weíll be focusing on making sure neither power makes this into an entirely map-dependent unit. I agree that would be pretty frustrating and boring. Itís possible, though, for them to receive terrain advantages or disadvantages without it completely defining how they play. Inflame will always be their most important power, the other powers are mostly in service of giving them a little more depth and theme.

Jaur0n
July 5th, 2019, 04:21 PM
C3G 's The Book of Molten Lava Rules has Molten Lava wounding on a roll of 6-19 which is most of the time.


Do we intend for this to work with C3G?

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 04:28 PM
C3G 's The Book of Molten Lava Rules has Molten Lava wounding on a roll of 6-19 which is most of the time.


Do we intend for this to work with C3G?

Nope, C3G is itís own Superhero project that is more or less self-contained. Weíre angling for Classic and VC comparability here, which use standard molten lava rules.

Fakeraistlin
July 6th, 2019, 03:33 PM
Color scheme doesn't 100% track general to general, but I think assigning these bright red burning cats to anyone but Utgar seems a little silly.

We've got a solid overall direction here but we're a little divided on the details. Here's some suggestions for what to put in the OP, let me know how these hit y'all.

(Unit name)
Utgar

Elementals (or some sort of made-up race? Sadly Arrow Gruts don't specify heroes for their bonding, so beasts is out of the question.)
Unique Squad
Hunters (mostly a placeholder. Seems a decent option but we can discuss others)
Wild (Feel a bit more solid about this than I do hunters, but still open to discussion)
Large ??

Life 1
Move ? (varies depending on inflame, between 5-8 )
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 5

Points ???

Power 1:
Inflame
Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add (move or attack buff). Optional condition 1: If there are no blaze counters on this army card, subtract X from this card's defense value. Optional condition 2: Something that allows blaze counters to be regained automatically.

(Personally, I like Inflame as a power that either just boosts attack or that grants a substantive move boost in addition to attack. If we do the movement boost, I would rather make it feel really significant by giving the cats base 5 move and having the move be +3 instead of +1. So I like having +3 move +1 attack, or just +1 attack and have a base move of 7 or 8.

I can take or leave optional condition 1. It's cute and adds some tension, but that's all. Optional condition 2 I don't personally care for. It adds another trigger and possibly a D20 roll to the power that overcomplicate it a little too much for my taste.)

Power 2:
Extinguish
Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water space, remove all blaze counters from this army card. (Blaze counters may not be placed on this army card while any of your (figure name's) are on water spaces.)

(Relatively straightforward, mostly flavor here. This power's actual implications depend significantly on how other powers work, so it's not worth discussion much in and of itself.)

Power 3:
Heat Absorption
If a (figure name) would receive one or more wounds from a source that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, ignore those wounds and, if possible, place a blaze counter on this army card.

OR

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.

(Fairly simple choice here. I think heat absorption is kinda neat but won't come up too much in actual play. I worry slightly about it spiking their cost by making them much stronger on lava maps, which won't be present in this master set, but even then it's slow going to build their markers back up. Ultimately that's a good thing, as it means we can balance the design around them having just three markers to spend with Heat Absorption giving them a little more legs in longer games or scenarios rather than standard tournament play.)

I'm ambivalent on the name, though Hell Cats (Cursed Cats)
I like.

I like counters, and First Strike role of this squad.
Don't like the penalty if all counters used up.


Extinguish/Lava/Fire Recharge
Not in favor of this....

If lava came in the Arena of the Planewalker sets or original RotV I would be in favor of this (all counter/lava or lava resistant weapon recharge mechanic).

Since there are specials or attacks that are fire based but also affect lava resistant creatures it creates more complexity/rulings which is against the philosophy/spirit to keep things simple based what I've read so far...

Water weakness
I believe that making contact (moving) on water tiles forfeits the units ability to regain counters that turn.

Recharge should be random (d20) thing

Like lava resistance.

All Your Pie
July 16th, 2019, 01:58 AM
I've updated the OP. The version I chose is the one that I feel most addresses everyone's preferences here. It's also the simplest, most streamlined version--no way of regaining markers, no added conditions on Inflame beyond using the markers for a buff, and standard lava resistant instead of heat absorption. I kept Extinguish on the card as I feel confident that testing will show it to be not a particularly oppressive downside.

That said, I do want to take a beat and hear from the other pod members to make sure we're okay with the current setup. If I've left something on the cutting room floor that you want to fight for, now's the time for it.

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 03:53 AM
Just a little thing about size/height. They are the same height as marrden hounds (Large 4) and shorter than the Deathstalkers (Large 5) so should be Large 4. I am happy about this design overall.

lefton4ya
July 16th, 2019, 10:53 AM
I really like the idea of attacking them with a Fire/Flama/Lava attack to get more markers - this is a cool mechanic we have not seen yet and adds synergy to a lot of other figures in the game that need help on non-lava maps, including Chandra. How about adding the wording of Heat Absorption to Inflame. Also I suggest the Inflame add "for that turn" to wording as I didn't think we meant it to stack. Also just a fun addition to Extinguish is to add Ice as well as water, but maybe just have remove one marker, as then maybe strategically you might do it once for one figure, but loosing all 3 markers for one figure seems harsh. I know adding ice makes them even more map dependent (on terrain not in AotP), but seems more thematic, or maybe I just want to see them go up against Ice Elementals for fun ;)

Inflame
Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value for that turn. Each time a (figure name) would receive one or more wounds from a source that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, ignore those wounds and, if possible, place a blaze counter on this army card.

Extinguish
Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water or ice space, remove one blaze counter from this army card.

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 12:30 PM
To make it less dependent on Chandra how about they add a blaze counter, instead of recieving a wound from any special attack or a wound from lava damage.

They would take the lava damage or special attack wound if they already have a maximum of 2 markers on their card.

Jaur0n
July 16th, 2019, 11:27 PM
I remain firmly against Extinguish.



To my knowledge there are only 2 units that suffer from water (beyond what most units do of having to stop on normal water), one is a D list squad that is only useful on lava maps and the other seems pretty reliant on having a bunch and a hero to buff and revive them.


I've heard the flavor or thematic argument, and for one, this flavor is rarely used (and IMO for good reason) To me, there is nothing thematic about one member of a squad being in water and the rest being impacted by it. The obsidian guards and flame elemental, only punish the unit in the water. Also they are not made of fire, they are on fire. Water might temporarily make them weaker, but not for the rest of the game. To me there is nothing thematic about this weakness.


I've heard how this is a 2 space unit so it won't happen that often, if that is true even more reason not to bother wasting text space for something that won't happen that often but when it does has a very negative impact on the player who brought the unit.


I said early on if a weakness was born out of a need to tame the unit down, it feels right. If it's just because the unit looks a certain way then why the hell isn't our other fire based attacker also afflicted, and anything with anything resembling fire as an ability or in the their name also being penalized too?


Maybe most importantly, extinguish threatens to removed the most interesting thing about this unit because water is the opposite element to fire. There is no decision point here, stay out of water, like pretty much every other unit that isn't buffed by water or immune to it. Without the negative power, staying out of water remains on the units goals, we've added nothing and threaten to remove this units uniqueness.

All Your Pie
July 17th, 2019, 01:50 AM
I remain firmly against Extinguish.



To my knowledge there are only 2 units that suffer from water (beyond what most units do of having to stop on normal water), one is a D list squad that is only useful on lava maps and the other seems pretty reliant on having a bunch and a hero to buff and revive them.

The Obsidian Guardís problems have everything to do with their poor move and high price point and very little to do with water weakness. The Fire Elementals are quite strong, and their Kurrok reliance has nothing to do with their weakness to water.

I've heard the flavor or thematic argument, and for one, this flavor is rarely used (and IMO for good reason) To me, there is nothing thematic about one member of a squad being in water and the rest being impacted by it. The obsidian guards and flame elemental, only punish the unit in the water. Also they are not made of fire, they are on fire. Water might temporarily make them weaker, but not for the rest of the game. To me there is nothing thematic about this weakness.

I think the point about it being odd that one squad member stepping in water extinguishes the entire squad is a good one. It wouldnít be the oddest thematic interaction in Heroscape, but it does undercut the strength of a power intended to be thematic. Otherwise, I donít think it really matters whether or not they are made of fire or on fire. Either way water should clearly affect them somewhat.

I've heard how this is a 2 space unit so it won't happen that often, if that is true even more reason not to bother wasting text space for something that won't happen that often but when it does has a very negative impact on the player who brought the unit.

Weíre not short on text space here, and very negative is overselling things.

I said early on if a weakness was born out of a need to tame the unit down, it feels right. If it's just because the unit looks a certain way then why the hell isn't our other fire based attacker also afflicted, and anything with anything resembling fire as an ability or in the their name also being penalized too?

I think the difference between a fire-themed unit and a unit that is either entirely made of fire or completely covered in it is fairly clear. There is far less reason to think that a fire-wielding mage should be harmed by water than a being that is constantly wreathed in flames.


Maybe most importantly, extinguish threatens to removed the most interesting thing about this unit because water is the opposite element to fire. There is no decision point here, stay out of water, like pretty much every other unit that isn't buffed by water or immune to it. Without the negative power, staying out of water remains on the units goals, we've added nothing and threaten to remove this units uniqueness.

The point I will concede here is that having extinguish directly remove their markers is a bit weak of a direction and needs to be discussed more. How would you feel about simply reusing water weakness from the Obsidian Guards? That would accurately convey the theme of flaming units without being as extreme as Negative Element for fully fire-composed beings or having the thematic weirdness of Extinguish.

The Long eared bat
July 17th, 2019, 03:41 AM
If they can regain markers then extinguish seems fine.

Scytale
July 17th, 2019, 10:27 AM
Jaur0n's argument is compelling. I'm still not against a weakness to water, but simple Water Weakness or the Fire Elemental's Negative Element may be better.

Or if we wanted something that ties to blaze, make it so that Firecats that start their turn in water are not boosted by Inflame.

Scytale
July 17th, 2019, 10:28 AM
<double post>

Jaur0n
July 17th, 2019, 02:46 PM
Or if we wanted something that ties to blaze, make it so that Firecats that start their turn in water are not boosted by Inflame.


This one feels good to me if we are determined to have a water themed weakness.

Fakeraistlin
July 17th, 2019, 05:37 PM
If they can regain markers then extinguish seems fine.

Yup took the words right out of mouth in this one...

All Your Pie
July 17th, 2019, 05:47 PM
If we want a way to regain markers then we're going to need to brainstorm on that a bit. Heat Absorption wasn't much favored by pod members and I am strongly against a round-based d20 roll to regain markers--I think it clutters an otherwise very simple and exciting power with extra text, steps, and an extra trigger point.

Fakeraistlin
July 18th, 2019, 11:03 PM
If we want a way to regain markers then we're going to need to brainstorm on that a bit. Heat Absorption wasn't much favored by pod members and I am strongly against a round-based d20 roll to regain markers--I think it clutters an otherwise very simple and exciting power with extra text, steps, and an extra trigger point.

Maybe these are the quick strike units (which are pretty good already as been said - without marker regeneration)... But we are talking about Extinguish being a mechanic...

Maybe simply rest:

If at least two order markers are placed on <UNIT> and no actions are performed by <UNIT> may regain lost marker.

Fakeraistlin
July 18th, 2019, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=Jaur0n;2293846]I like the Ukushisa in the name. Ukushisa Hell Cats or Ukushisa Pride seems good. (I lean toward Hell Cats )

What is UKUSHIA in reference to? All I find is some japanese references... Just curious...

flameslayer93
July 19th, 2019, 01:03 AM
Lions are the only big cat that hunt as a group. As a name what about: Ukushisa Pride.
Ukushisa is Zulu for blazing.

Right here, Fakeraistlin

:)

Fakeraistlin
July 19th, 2019, 02:02 AM
Lions are the only big cat that hunt as a group. As a name what about: Ukushisa Pride.
Ukushisa is Zulu for blazing.

Right here, Fakeraistlin

:)

:p I guess I should look at this stuff on my computer rather than my small phone

Thanks

The Long eared bat
July 19th, 2019, 02:05 PM
For inflame how about they regain a marker when one of them is destroyed.

lefton4ya
July 19th, 2019, 04:50 PM
The Long eared bat that's not a bad idea because you would want to use the markers quickly before one dies, and on the offense you'd want to kill more than one at a time so they can't get a marker for each that dies - the theme of flaming out. However I really like the idea All Your Pie started out as Heat Absorption as it has a slight help on Lava maps at the end of the round lava field, but after looking at figures in the game that would help it is only Fire Elemental's: Searing Intensity and [Chandra]. I'd like to open it up to a lot of other figures - how about:
Inflame
Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value for that turn. Each time a Ukushisa Pride figure would receive one or more wounds Lava Field rolls or from an attack from a figure with the Lava Resistant special power, ignore those wounds and, if possible, place a blaze counter on this army card.
This open up synergy to:
[Chandra Nalaar]
Avernus (coming soon) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2112983&postcount=88)
Brunak
Fire Elemental
Iron Golem
Moltenclaw
Obsidian Guards
Shurrak

All Your Pie
July 19th, 2019, 05:02 PM
To be clear, Heat Absorption was Scytale’s idea originally. Ideally it would replace Lava Resistant instead of being part of Inflame, since it would still prevent damage from lava field and the like while only missing out on molten lava immunity. I’m not much of a fan of letting them ignore damage from all lava resistant figures though, as that could lead to frustrating and unthematic situations where your iron golem simply can’t hurt your opponent’s ukushia.

Tentatively, I’m fine with either heat absorption or regaining markers when cats die, although I’m not sure what the latter represents thematically.

lefton4ya
July 19th, 2019, 06:26 PM
My fault on not giving Scytale credit, and yeah if the last figures on an opponent's team are all Lava resistant basically they couldn't win with my above wording. Hmm. I was just excited on the idea of your other units attacking them to buff them. We could have something like "... wounds from Lava Filed rolls or a special attack with Blazing, Burning, Fire, Heat, Lava [etc] in it..." but that seems complicated. Will have to think about it but if anyone has another idea with the concept of you attacking them to buff them, please post. Or if people do not like that idea that's fine I just think its really cool/hot idea and the firecats with markers makes sense for it.

The Long eared bat
July 19th, 2019, 06:53 PM
Tentatively, Iím fine with either heat absorption or regaining markers when cats die, although Iím not sure what the latter represents thematically.
It gives a sense of revenging the death of a pride member.

Scytale
July 20th, 2019, 12:32 AM
I am partial to the re-ignite mechanic instead of taking damage because it's a weak synergy that's unique and interesting. It makes for the build with Chandra synergistic, but not in a way that either requires the other. In addition, it gives some extra reason for the double fire lines, as there will be plenty of times having the second fire line won't otherwise matter.

But it is an extra layer of complexity. I believe these units can afford that, but it's something we can cut without making a big change to how the unit plays. So it's not a hill I'll die on or anything.

All Your Pie
August 21st, 2019, 06:56 PM
Where are we at here, do y'all think? Should we work on ironing out a mechanic for marker regain here, or are we ready to put some last touches on and prepare to move into testing?

Pumpkin_King
August 21st, 2019, 10:01 PM
I think tying their marker regeneration to lava fields/resistant is a mistake. It;s too situational.

The Long eared bat
August 22nd, 2019, 06:40 AM
Are people in favour of regaining markers when a cat dies?

Scytale
August 22nd, 2019, 01:04 PM
I liked regaining markers from lava fields and not-affecting-lava-resistant-figures powers because of the potential soft synergy with the fire lady. If we aren't going that route, forget the recharge. These are uniques; longevity isn't important, and not having the recharge makes for tighter decisions.

flameslayer93
August 22nd, 2019, 03:26 PM
A crazy idea came to mind last night. If markers donít work out what about something like...

RAGING FIRECATS
For every unrevealed Order Marker on this Army Card, add 1 to the Prideís move and attack.

This lets them play the tune of the fire that burns the brightest dies the fastest because an opponent is most likely going to try stopping the pure carnage these guys will create. A base move/attack of 5/3 will help keep them from overshooting in raw power too.

The Long eared bat
August 29th, 2019, 12:23 PM
If no one else likes my idea For inflame how about they regain a marker when one of them is destroyed. I personally prefer this A crazy idea came to mind last night. If markers don’t work out what about something like...

RAGING FIRECATS
For every unrevealed Order Marker on this Army Card, add 1 to the Pride’s move and attack.

This lets them play the tune of the fire that burns the brightest dies the fastest because an opponent is most likely going to try stopping the pure carnage these guys will create. A base move/attack of 5/3 will help keep them from overshooting in raw power too. than regaining from lava field and attacks that don't affect figures with lava resistance.

Astroking112
August 29th, 2019, 01:31 PM
I liked regaining markers from lava fields and not-affecting-lava-resistant-figures powers because of the potential soft synergy with the fire lady. If we aren't going that route, forget the recharge. These are uniques; longevity isn't important, and not having the recharge makes for tighter decisions.

I think that Scytale's right on the money here. The idea for recharging markers from lava field and some limited Special Attacks is neat because of how it's new yet relatively minor. As a unique, aggressive squad, the Pride really doesn't need a way to recharge markers, but providing the soft synergy or slight boost to lava maps is a nice touch without dominating the playstyle. I haven't seen many other ideas for regenerating markers that capture the same feeling, and since it's ultimately not necessary to the playstyle that's been discussed, I think that most other ideas don't hold the same appeal.

A crazy idea came to mind last night. If markers donít work out what about something like...

RAGING FIRECATS
For every unrevealed Order Marker on this Army Card, add 1 to the Prideís move and attack.

This lets them play the tune of the fire that burns the brightest dies the fastest because an opponent is most likely going to try stopping the pure carnage these guys will create. A base move/attack of 5/3 will help keep them from overshooting in raw power too.

I appreciate what you're going for, but I don't think that it lines up with what this pod seemed to be leaning towards. It's significantly weaker because it forces you to commit to them for the round to get their value, but as shock troops that probably isn't what you want to do, especially since you're locking yourself into "weaker" turns with them. The cyclic nature of them potentially "rekindling" every round is also thematically different from them using up their flame via markers and having to make decisions on when to use them.

flameslayer93
August 29th, 2019, 02:03 PM
It was just an option to add kindling to the fire. ;)

robbdaman
September 21st, 2019, 01:53 PM
I agree that Extinguish seems odd in reference to the Fire elemental which has Negative Element. C3V has been working on the large fire elemental which is more akin to current scape creatures FYI. Not that these have to be like Fire elemental but if these are elementals (which I feel they should be, unique or not) then it'd be a closer fit. Elemental will work for the "look" given C3V has a Reaper bones figure that looks similar. Also Kurrok won't come into play as these are large creatures. The ablative factor of whatever is chosen to give a boost, etc should be enough of a drawback especially since if any unit dies that's less creatures to use. Compare to the Werewolf Lord and his counters which are limited. Recharging seems unnecessary as well, too much work to get that to work on a card, I'd rather the rest of the card be stronger and keep the points down.

Pumpkin_King
September 29th, 2019, 05:03 AM
Bumping this - it seems like we’re not quite where we want to be with these guys.

The Long eared bat
September 29th, 2019, 02:02 PM
I think what is currently in the OP is fine and simple.

All Your Pie
September 30th, 2019, 01:21 AM
Only change I personally would make at this point is to replace Extinguish with Water Weakness. Other than that I think this is a solid card as is.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 02:19 AM
Fine with Lava Resistance and everything else except...

Since there is no recharge component for markers I am not in favor of Water Weakness in its current form proposed (please correct me if I am wrong -2 DEF).
Unless a complementary Fire Strength in lava (+1 att +1 def).

I'd be in favor of the card if water weakness was removed.

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 03:37 AM
It doesn't make much sense if Ukushia Pride have water weakness, but are able to pass or be in water and still be able to inflame.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 04:51 AM
Remember that weíre making a master set here. Think of ROTV levels of simplicity. Thereís talk right now of paring down other units.

As a wise man once said, remember that this is a game, not a simulation. Not everything has to be pushed to its logical constraints. What you have in the OP seems good. Iíd even take out Extinguish and maybe give them negative element from the fire elementals.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 10:24 AM
Remember that weíre making a master set here. Think of ROTV levels of simplicity. Thereís talk right now of paring down other units.

As a wise man once said, remember that this is a game, not a simulation. Not everything has to be pushed to its logical constraints. What you have in the OP seems good. Iíd even take out Extinguish and maybe give them negative element from the fire elementals.

Negative element works for me instead of water weakness.

robbdaman
September 30th, 2019, 11:30 AM
I was looking at these figures yesterday. Possibly Outsider as a Species? It's a generic D&D term for otherworldly inter-dimensional creatures that are not necessarily a demon. Might be something that could be built upon.

Scytale
September 30th, 2019, 11:32 AM
Actually, it does kind of suck to lose all Blaze counters in water. Some maps it would be hard to avoid.

Negative Element is fine, but that feels a bit like in-the-box thinking. Just because they're fire creatures doesn't mean they have to be super-weak in water. More importantly, this is a non-rebirthing unqiue squad, which would make water devastating. Here's an alternate idea:
Inflame
Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value. You may not use Inflame if any Blazing Firecats are on water tiles.

Extinguish
Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water space, remove all blaze counters from this army card.

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.It gives them a significant weakness in water, without making them inept.

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 12:10 PM
Actually, it does kind of suck to lose all Blaze counters in water. Some maps it would be hard to avoid.

Negative Element is fine, but that feels a bit like in-the-box thinking. Just because they're fire creatures doesn't mean they have to be super-weak in water. More importantly, this is a non-rebirthing unqiue squad, which would make water devastating. Here's an alternate idea:
Inflame
Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value. You may not use Inflame if any Blazing Firecats are on water tiles.

Extinguish
Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water space, remove all blaze counters from this army card.

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.It gives them a significant weakness in water, without making them inept.

That exactly what I was thinking.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 01:08 PM
Makes them different from Fire Elementals and
gives them a balance with Lava resistance...perfect.

flameslayer93
September 30th, 2019, 01:16 PM
Sounds fun so far! Good job guys!

All Your Pie
September 30th, 2019, 02:10 PM
Iím happy with that change, Scy. Iíll add it to the OP later today if there arenít any objections.

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 04:19 PM
We now need to clarify Species, Class and Personality.

lefton4ya
September 30th, 2019, 05:50 PM
Species: Panthera or Puma (the two main Genus of "Big Cats")
Class: Scouts or Hunter or Predator
Personality: Relentless or Menacing

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 06:01 PM
Species: Panthera
Class: Hunter
Personality: Menacing

All Your Pie
September 30th, 2019, 06:06 PM
It feels odd to have Panthera as a species when the more general Beast is already established. Unfortunately we can't use beast because the Arrow Gruts don't specify unique heroes in their bonding for some reason.

We could keep it simple and just list "Ukushia" as their species, though I don't know if that was the intent behind their name. I am in general fine with inventing something new here.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 11:29 PM
Pyrocat
Smoldercat


Hmm. I got nothing.


We can't use "outsider", I do know that.

robbdaman
September 30th, 2019, 11:37 PM
Pyrocat
Smoldercat


Hmm. I got nothing.


We can't use "outsider", I do know that.

Why would that be? There's a lot of outsiders in D&D, not that you necessarily want to follow any D&D lore.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 11:39 PM
Outsider is going to be used for an upcoming C3V release, with a much different theme.

robbdaman
October 1st, 2019, 12:08 AM
Outsider is going to be used for an upcoming C3V release, with a much different theme.

Ah, hadn't realized they were of that label. I think using D&D minis for the Lovecraft stuff seems odd, funny enough they are D&D Outsiders.

flameslayer93
October 1st, 2019, 12:30 AM
What is wrong with plain ol’ Hellcats for the race?

Fakeraistlin
October 1st, 2019, 12:48 AM
What is wrong with plain olí Hellcats for the race?

I was fine with that (hellcats), though majority liked the Ukushia...name... Maybe species is Unknown, Personality (Hunter/Predator), the current name was given by someone familiar with earth history and African language.

They are blazing, stalking, cats. Ukushia Stalkers?

They are semi-intelligent telepathic creatures who work as a group and not aware of their history but know they come a fiery molten place. Sort of the story that they like the others were summoned from a whole whack of known and unknown places...

Scytale
October 1st, 2019, 12:45 PM
Hellcats works fine, Ukushia is fine. I am happy with Hunters and Wild.

flameslayer93
October 1st, 2019, 02:49 PM
Honestly I think the name is great Fakeraistlin . But the name doesn’t have to be the race after all.

Ukushia Pride
Hellcats
Hunters
Wild

Sounds like great left hand stats to me.

Astroking112
October 1st, 2019, 02:57 PM
What is wrong with plain olí Hellcats for the race?

I don't think this is something that Hasbro would've used.

Panthera, Puma, some mix of the two, or a made up species sound more in-line with classic designs.

flameslayer93
October 1st, 2019, 03:09 PM
What is wrong with plain olí Hellcats for the race?

I don't think this is something that Hasbro would've used.

Panthera, Puma, some mix of the two, or a made up species sound more in-line with classic designs.

With Demons being a thing over in Ob Nixís thread I donít think that Hellcats is really an issue.

robbdaman
October 1st, 2019, 03:18 PM
What is wrong with plain olí Hellcats for the race?

I don't think this is something that Hasbro would've used.

Panthera, Puma, some mix of the two, or a made up species sound more in-line with classic designs.

Yeah, like Pyrekat or Blazlion. :)

Astroking112
October 1st, 2019, 03:36 PM
What is wrong with plain olí Hellcats for the race?

I don't think this is something that Hasbro would've used.

Panthera, Puma, some mix of the two, or a made up species sound more in-line with classic designs.

With Demons being a thing over in Ob Nixís thread I donít think that Hellcats is really an issue.

I do not find the two comparable. While the theme of demons is similar, Hellcat as a word could have caused controversy from parents upset over "a kids game including profanity" or the like. Reasonable or not, I don't think that this is something that would have ever been printed on an official HeroScape card.

It makes much more sense to me to lean more into the Ukushia Pride aspect and come up with a species unique to this design, preferably something similarly African-sounding. That said, I'm not in this pod and won't be voting on this unit until Final Review.

The Long eared bat
October 1st, 2019, 04:46 PM
Their name should be Ukushi(s)a Pride.
For a species name how about Motosimba. In Swahili 'moto' means fire and 'simba' means lion.

Fakeraistlin
October 1st, 2019, 04:59 PM
What is wrong with plain ol’ Hellcats for the race?

I don't think this is something that Hasbro would've used.

Panthera, Puma, some mix of the two, or a made up species sound more in-line with classic designs.

With Demons being a thing over in Ob Nix’s thread I don’t think that Hellcats is really an issue.

I do not find the two comparable. While the theme of demons is similar, Hellcat as a word could have caused controversy from parents upset over "a kids game including profanity" or the like. Reasonable or not, I don't think that this is something that would have ever been printed on an official HeroScape card.

It makes much more sense to me to lean more into the Ukushia Pride aspect and come up with a species unique to this design, preferably something similarly African-sounding. That said, I'm not in this pod and won't be voting on this unit until Final Review.


Maybe a compromise ...use scientific name
Pantera Ukushia... doesnt roll off the tongue but dont
think these guys are from Hell... though I like hellcats. ;)

Fakeraistlin
October 1st, 2019, 04:59 PM
Honestly I think the name is great Fakeraistlin . But the name doesnít have to be the race after all.

Ukushia Pride
Hellcats
Hunters
Wild

Sounds like great left hand stats to me.

Works for me

Leaf_It
October 1st, 2019, 05:08 PM
Hello. Lurking around in here every now and then.

I prefer Ukushia to Hellcats. The simple reason is because the game was targeted at least partially towards 12 years olds, so they wouldn't have ever used profanity if they could avoid it. I think that's also why they didn't have demons, or actual skeletons, until D&D came around. Another reason is because Hellcats just seems really generic, and uninteresting. Ukushia sounds like an actual name a species would be given by a biologist, or native, if these things were found in real life. While Hellcats is the name that an edgy 16 year old would use to annoy their parents.

On a side note, I know that the version of Inflame used was chosen because it "addresses everyone's preferences", and I'm not trying to force any changes, I just think it might be interesting if they got a blaze marker at the start of each round. Either way, I like the design.

Scytale
October 1st, 2019, 06:08 PM
On a side note, I know that the version of Inflame used was chosen because it "addresses everyone's preferences", and I'm not trying to force any changes, I just think it might be interesting if they got a blaze marker at the start of each round. Either way, I like the design.
We did much discussion of recharging Blaze markers. We decided against it because it will matter little in a game. If we want them to have more Blaze markers, just start with more, not add more text to the card.

All Your Pie
October 1st, 2019, 06:16 PM
I also prefer the set amount marker version for its own sake. If the markers regen, it feels like the choice of when to use them wonít be particularly meaningful.

Iíll edit the OP here later tonight when I get home.

Leaf_It
October 1st, 2019, 06:30 PM
On a side note, I know that the version of Inflame used was chosen because it "addresses everyone's preferences", and I'm not trying to force any changes, I just think it might be interesting if they got a blaze marker at the start of each round. Either way, I like the design.
We did much discussion of recharging Blaze markers. We decided against it because it will matter little in a game. If we want them to have more Blaze markers, just start with more, not add more text to the card.

I also prefer the set amount marker version for its own sake. If the markers regen, it feels like the choice of when to use them wonít be particularly meaningful.

Iíll edit the OP here later tonight when I get home.
Fair points. They'll still be fun and interesting to use.

NecroBlade
October 1st, 2019, 10:18 PM
Is there a possibility of reusing Elementar here?

Scytale
October 1st, 2019, 11:57 PM
Is there a possibility of reusing Elementar here?
Other than that they aren't anything like the Granite Guardians?

All Your Pie
October 2nd, 2019, 12:39 AM
OP updated. I'm sticking with Ukushisa (I did actually like the sound of Ukushia more, but we probably shouldn't just blatantly misspell something) for the species, since it doesn't sound like any of the other options are much more appealing or really give us any new information.

I'll let this sit for a little while, but I think we're close to a vote for Editing here.

Scytale
October 2nd, 2019, 01:45 AM
but we probably shouldn't just blatantly misspell something
Nilfheim agrees.

Jaur0n
October 2nd, 2019, 05:28 PM
Hellcats works fine, Ukushia is fine. I am happy with Hunters and Wild.

Same

The Long eared bat
October 3rd, 2019, 03:50 AM
Are we ready for voting.

All Your Pie
October 3rd, 2019, 04:22 AM
Are we ready for voting.
Good call, Iíd say so.

I propose we move on to Editing here.

:up: from me.

The Long eared bat
October 3rd, 2019, 04:30 AM
:up: for me.

Scytale
October 3rd, 2019, 12:11 PM
It was a lot of back-and-forth, but I'm happy with where we ended up.

:up:

Fakeraistlin
October 3rd, 2019, 01:11 PM
:up:

All Your Pie
October 3rd, 2019, 02:00 PM
Alrighty, this moves on. (4-0).

lefton4ya
October 3rd, 2019, 07:03 PM
:up: to editing (even if my vote note needed).

Still not clear on Inflame if it stacks or is a one time use. If one time use, add "...you may remove a blaze counter to add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value for this turn."

If stacks then redo as: Inflame
"Start the game with three blaze counters. Before moving, you may add a blaze counter on this army card. Add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value for each blaze counter on this army card. The Ukushisa Pride may not add blaze markers and does not count Inflame if any of them occupy a water space."

Scytale
October 4th, 2019, 01:35 PM
:up: to editing (even if my vote note needed).

Still not clear on Inflame if it stacks or is a one time use. If one time use, add "...you may remove a blaze counter to add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value for this turn."

If stacks then redo as: Inflame
"Start the game with three blaze counters. Before moving, you may add a blaze counter on this army card. Add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value for each blaze counter on this army card. The Ukushisa Pride may not add blaze markers and does not count Inflame if any of them occupy a water space."
It does not stack, at least I assumed it didn't. Other powers like Wait Then Fire do not clarify that, though yes, "for this turn" would be a good addition for clarity.

All Your Pie
October 4th, 2019, 03:08 PM
The intent was for it to only last for the turn. Heroscape almost never clarifies that for stat boosts, but that has also been a consistent point of confusion for new players. Iím fine with adding clarification for that sake.

Also, just realized we never really discussed a point value here. We donít need one for editing, but might as well get our initial guess up. How about 110? 8/1/4/5 stats are nothing to sneeze at, even if they only have it sometimes.

lefton4ya
November 8th, 2019, 11:27 AM
I think the fact that they don't have range makes them not as good as Nakita/Krav Maga Agents, but they are large and 8 move. I'd say not quite as good as Tagawa Samurai, so 100-110 range seems good. I know we are still theoryscaping this unit but if 100 makes them A- and 100 makes them B+, which are we aiming for?

The Long eared bat
November 8th, 2019, 12:19 PM
They don't feel 20 points more than the Marrden Hounds, so 100 points is my guess.

Scytale
November 8th, 2019, 12:30 PM
I don't think they'll be an A- or even B+ at 100. I think 100 is pretty good, at least as a starting point.

Scytale
November 11th, 2019, 05:28 PM
Inflame
Start the game with three Blaze counters on this Army Card. Before moving, you may remove a Blaze counter to add 2 to this card's Move value and 1 to its Attack value for the remainder of that turn. The Ukushisa Pride may not Inflame if any of them are on a water space.

Lava Resistant
Ukushisa Pride figures never roll for molten lava damage or lava field damage and they do not have to stop on molten lava spaces.Suggested R&C:
Q: Could the Ukushisa Pride use Inflame if one of them is on one water space and one non-water space?
A: No.General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No, Lava Resistant is an existing power.

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? Yes

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, the Pride could no longer make use of Blaze counters, and would be affected normally by molten lava and lava fields (though would not have to roll if already in molten lava). Exploit Weakness has no effect currently, though if reused could remove the Lava Resistant protection for a turn. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? If a negation effect could affect them in the middle of a Blaze turn, the effect would remain for the duration of the turn as it is a defined duration. Is this clear from the wording? Yes

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? N/A

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? No

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? No If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy?

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? No

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? No If so, is that clearly worded? How does it interact with revivals, via Glyph of Sturla or otherwise?

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? No

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? No If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Inflame is clearly optional. Lava Resistant is clearly mandatory.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? Nothing special.

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Inflame could, in theory, be reused with a different theme, but the thematic version is needed here.

22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Yes Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc.


Capitalization Checklist:

Named Special Power
Army Card
Other Marker
Move value
Attack valueterrain


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. "Ukushisa" is plural.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. "Hunters" is plural.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. N/A

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. N/A


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? N/A

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? If Mind Shackled, the new controller could use any remaining Blaze Markers normally.


Normal Attack Power Checklist:

1. Is it dependent on the type of space the target(s) is on? No, but Blaze does depend on the spaces the Pride is on. If so, does it work clearly with double-spaced figures and destructible objects? Yes, even a single occupied water space prevents the use of Blaze.

2. Does it affect targeting? No If so, how does it interact with Smoke Powder, Tribal Protection, Combat Challenge, Opportunity Strike, Quick Draw, and FaÁade?

3. How does it interact with Hard Targets? Nothing special.

4. How does it interact with Aura of Despair? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Marked for Destruction? N/A

6. How does it interact with Vanish/Spider-Sense X/Spidey-Sense X/Disappearing Ninja/Hide in Darkness/Fleet Footed/Flutter? Nothing special.

7. How does it interact with Mask of Terror?Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with Ring of Protection? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with One Shield Defense? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Tough/Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? Nothing special.

11. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Nothing special.

12. How does it interact with Defensive Agility/Stealth Dodge/Nature's Protection/Acrobatic? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Gift of the Empress Aura? Nothing special.

14. How does it interact with Counter Strike/Evil Eye Defense/Evil Eye Protection? Nothing special.

15. How does it interact with Evil Eye Glare? N/A

16. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

17. How does it interact with Upgrade? Nothing special.

18. How does it interact with Stealth Armor/Sacred Band Defy Death/etc? Nothing special.

19. How does it interact with Temporal Jump? Nothing special.

20. How does it interact with Cell Divide? Nothing special.

21. How does it interact with Exoskeleton/Redundant Systems? Nothing special.

22. How does it interact with Expendable Rabble? Nothing special.

23. How does it interact with Purple Heart? Nothing special.

24. How does it interact with Dying Swipe/Rupture? Nothing special.

25. How does it interact with Teleport Reinforcements? Nothing special.

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? Nothing special.

27. How does it interact with Scatter and Scurry? Nothing special.

28. How does it interact with Defensive Vault? Nothing special.


Movement Power Checklist:

1. Does it allow leaving engagement attacks? N/A

2. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Nothing special.

3. How does it interact with Slippery? Nothing special.

4. How does it interact with Cyberclaw/Improved Cyberclaw? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Swirling Vortex? N/A

6. Is there any way the figure can be forced to end its movement on an illegal space? No

7. Is it a space-by-space move power, or a teleport-like place power? It is an enhancement to normal movement. Is it clear in the power which one it is?

8. How does it interact with bonus movement powers, such as Movement Bonding or Jandar's Dispatch? Blaze cannot be used with a bonus movement. Lava Resistant must be used with bonus movements.

9. How does it interact with Shield Push? N/A

10. How does it interact with Maneuver? N/A

11. How does it interact with Steadfast? N/A

12. How does it interact with Flying/Stealth Flying? N/A

13. How does it interact with Levitation? N/A


Start of Turn Power Checklist:

1. How does it interact with various forms of bonding? N/A

2. How does it interact with powers that allow other units to take turns instead of the unit with the order marker? If given a bonus turn, the Pride could use Blaze.

3. How does it interact with Samurai Life Debt? N/A

4. How does it interact with Healing Word? N/A

5. How does it interact with Eternal Hatred? N/A

6. How does it interact with additional order marker revealing powers, such as Crag of Steel and Frost Rage? N/A

7. How does it interact with Rejected by Death? Rejected by Death would happen before the Blaze marker removal, as it takes place "at the start of each of your turns."

8. How does it interact with Reanimation? N/A

9. How does it interact with Quantum Reconstitution? N/A

10. How does it interact with Through the Green? N/A

11. How does it interact with First Strike? N/A

12. How does it interact with Split Decision? N/A

13. How does it interact with Chrono-Key? N/A

14. How does it interact with Potion of Healing? N/A

15. How does it interact with Revenant's Tome? N/A

Other Marker Powers

1. The marker should not have a color. It does not.

2. If the marker is placed on another card, what happens when either unit dies? The marker cannot be placed on another card.

All Your Pie
November 11th, 2019, 05:30 PM
I believe I intended Ukushisa to be plural when I wrote it in as the species. It sounds better than "Ukushisas" I think.

Scytale
November 11th, 2019, 05:52 PM
Excellent. I updated the above. This is ready to move to Playtesting.

Please update the OP with the following, and add a link to the Editing Checklist (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2332200#post2332200).

Inflame
Start the game with three Blaze counters on this Army Card. Before moving, you may remove a Blaze counter to add 2 to this card's Move value and 1 to its Attack value for the remainder of that turn. The Ukushisa Pride may not Inflame if any of them are on a water space.

Lava Resistant
Ukushisa Pride figures never roll for molten lava damage or lava field damage and they do not have to stop on molten lava spaces.Suggested R&C:
Q: Could the Ukushisa Pride use Inflame if one of them is on one water space and one non-water space?
A: No.

All Your Pie
November 11th, 2019, 05:58 PM
Alrighty. Let's get a vote for playtesting started then, at 100 points as per previous suggestions.

:up: from me.

Scytale
November 11th, 2019, 06:17 PM
:up:

lefton4ya
November 12th, 2019, 01:23 AM
:up:

The Long eared bat
November 12th, 2019, 03:24 AM
:up:

Jaur0n
November 12th, 2019, 01:12 PM
:up:

Fakeraistlin
November 12th, 2019, 06:34 PM
:up:

All Your Pie
November 12th, 2019, 09:54 PM
Alrighty, we're moving this along into playtesting.

We're mainly looking at balance here, as well of getting a basic idea of how the unit feels to play when in action. This is a fairly straightforward design though, and its value will be more or less tied to how effectively it kills things. I'll be linking every test in the OP, so please be sure to provide as much detail and data related to the unit's use as possible so that we can cleanly refer to it in the future.

I'll try and run a test or two myself later this week.

The Long eared bat
November 15th, 2019, 02:27 PM
Map: Artifact at Forgotten Lake.
Glyphs: Wannok, Attack+1, Initiative+8
600 point armies.
Team 1: Ukushisa Pride(100), Avernus, Kurrok, 7x Fire Elementals
Team 2: Su-Bak-Na 2x Nagrubs, 2x Havech Eradicators, Hercules

Match report: Eradicators and Fire Elementals try to get field position for their sides. Eradicators reach the Attack+1 which helped to kill 2 Fires. Fires fought back removing the Attack+1 holder and taking out 2 other Eradicators. After 1st round 3 fires lost and 3 Eradicators lost. Eradicators advanced close to opponents start zone so Ukushisa Pride could reach without needing to Inflame. 1 Eradicator was killed by a normal attack from a Ukushisa. The other to positioned on the road which made Inflame more useful attacking wise. Su and the grubs started to move in and were met by some Inflaming.
1st Inflame: Killed 1 Eradicator, 1 Nagrub.
2nd Inflame: Killed 1 Eradicator other 2 rushed in to deal 1 wound on Su and Hercules.
3rd Inflame: Only 2 Ukashisa left killed 1 Nagrub blocked attack from Hercules.
Su-Bak-Na killed 2 Ukushisa quickly. Also killed a few elementals with support from grubs to reach Kurrok and then Avernus who only lasted 2 attacks. Su and grubs had wiped out the oppostion appart from the last Ukushisa who defended 3 rounds of attacks from 2 grubs while the rest of the team was being decimated by Su. Once activated the Ukushisa killed both grubs, but couldn't survive against Hercules.

Units that survived: Hercules (1 wound) Su-Bak-Na (3wounds)

Thoughts on Ukushisa Pride: They killed 130 points and defended well against Team 2's squads. However they defended more against Nagrubs and were easily killed by large attacks from Su and Hercules. Inflame was powerful, but not overpowering. It was also a fun simple power that plays well.

Scytale
November 15th, 2019, 02:49 PM
Are we tied to the "Inflame" power name? The more I see it the less right it feels. They're always flaming. Is something wrong with naming the power Blaze?

robbdaman
November 15th, 2019, 03:02 PM
Are we tied to the "Inflame" power name? The more I see it the less right it feels. They're always flaming. Is something wrong with naming the power Blaze?

Maybe call it Blazing Charge since it incorporates moving and attacking?

Pumpkin_King
November 15th, 2019, 03:06 PM
Blaze sounds good. Blazing charge implies a different kind of movement I feel.

lefton4ya
November 15th, 2019, 04:04 PM
Blaze or Ablaze are good choices. Don't like Charge in power name.

The Long eared bat
November 16th, 2019, 01:35 PM
I like the sound of Blaze.

The Long eared bat
November 16th, 2019, 01:45 PM
Map: Dance Of The Dryads
Glyphs: Unique Attack +1, Defense +1
400 point armies
Team 1: Ukushisa Pride(100), Mika Connour, Feral Troll, Krav Maga Agents
Team 2: Iron Golem, 2x Marro Stingers, 2x Marrden Hounds

Match report: Ukushisa move out first and met by Stingers with Drain and killed 1 Ukushisa. Krav moved in for support killed 2 Stingers. Hounds moved in a killed a Ukushisa with Plague. Last Ukushisa used [Blaze] which was a poor attack and got blocked. The last Ukushisa lasted 2 good attacks from Stingers but died on a 3rd attack due to an initiative win. The Ukushisa ended up being hold up units for the Krav who went on to do alot of damage by taking glyphs and height. Hounds were too quick for them and the Krav fell. Mika and Troll couldn't pull back a win.

Units that survived: 3 Stingers, 2 Hounds and full life Iron Golem.

The Long eared bat
November 16th, 2019, 02:01 PM
Second playtest on same map same teams
Map: Dance Of The Dryads
Glyphs: Unique Attack +1, Defense +1
400 point armies
Team 1: Ukushisa Pride(100), Mika Connour, Feral Troll, Krav Maga Agents
Team 2: Iron Golem, 2x Marro Stingers, 2x Marrden Hounds

Match report:This time theb Krav moved out first, but only killed 3 before lossing 2 members to Stingers. This allowed the Hounds to rush into Team 1's start zone and killed 1 Ukushisa. The Ukushisa were then activated and used [Blaze] which killed 1 Hound. Second Blaze killed 1 Stinger and 3rd Blaze killed 1 Hound (80 killed in total)
The last Ukushisa was a good block for Troll and Mika to move and clean up the remaining Hounds. Iron Golem was too strong for a wounded Troll and also the remaining Ukushisa.

Units that survived: 1 Stinger and Full Life Iron Golem.

Thoughts on both tests: Team 2 was probably a stronger team and Stinger Drain and Pack Movement were consistent. On this map the Ukushisa didn't need to worry about lava and Team 2 were at risk from height attacks from Ukushisa on lava spaces. You really want to use up [Blaze] markers as quickly as possible to get the full effect.

All Your Pie
November 24th, 2019, 08:55 PM
Map: Elswin Plateau
Glyphs: Lodin and Ulvania
480 points
Army 1: Ukushisa Pride (100), Laglor (110), 53rd Sharpshooters x3 (165), Gorillitroopers x1 (105)
Army 2: Havech Eradicators x4 (360), Kaemon Awa (120)

Blaze usage 1: Round 2 OM 3. Movement boost used to reach and kill 1 extra havech. Other attacks were blocked, including a 3 skulls blocked by 4 shields.

Afterwards, one Ukushisa fell but the others blocked quite a few hits. They clogged up the board for a while before going down but didn't receive any other OMs. After that, Kaemon managed to get in and take out the gorillitroopers before going down, allowing the Havechs to close in for a victory.

Final: Havech win with 4 remaining.

Thoughts: The Ukushisa weren't quite right for the rest of the army, but they were still fairly useful. Not 100 points useful, certainly, but they occupied the Havech for quite a while. I might try them in more of a cleanup role next.

Scytale
November 24th, 2019, 09:34 PM
I'm not particularly thrilled with the playtesting reports. I'm failing to see the value of the Blaze markers. They have a theoretical value, but with the nature of the rest of the design most of the turns they take they'll get to Blaze. Which means it's not much different than just having the better stats all the time, or at least not worth a marker mechanic.

I like the concept, but I would prefer it to be more tactically interesting. A quick suggestion:
BLAZE
Once per round, after revealing an order marker on this army Card, you may add 2 to this card's Move value and 1 to its Attack value for the remainder of that turn. The Ukushisa Pride may not Blaze if any of them are on a water space.A once-per-round limitation will force more tactics, particularly in order marker placement.

The Long eared bat
December 7th, 2019, 08:43 AM
BLAZE
Once per round, after revealing an order marker on this army Card, you may add 2 to this card's Move value and 1 to its Attack value for the remainder of that turn. The Ukushisa Pride may not Blaze if any of them are on a water space.
I think with this power they should be less points 80-90 maybe.

robbdaman
December 7th, 2019, 04:10 PM
Maybe increase the boost to 2 attack dice and serif the makes them more useful. 5 attack dice is fairly strong for taking down big heroes.

All Your Pie
December 7th, 2019, 04:22 PM
I think the current question is not whether or not Blaze is a useful boost, but whether or not there are any interesting tactical decisions to make with whether or not to use a marker.

I don't know that a once per round limitation is a significant improvement, though. It will force different tactics, but not necessarily more, as it seems to me you'd only ever give them one OM in a round.

I'd like to see one or two more tests focusing on this unit in an endgame scenario before we consider making changes here. I'll see about getting around to that later this week if I can although I may not have the time.

kevindola
December 7th, 2019, 11:24 PM
400 Points
Map: Ashfall by Flash19
Glyphs: Wannok Valda

Army 1: Nilfheim, Greenscales x3, Guilty
Army 2: Goblin Cutters x4, Syvarris, Ukushisa Pride


Which units survived?
Nilfheim (1 life)
Guilty (1 life)


Syvarris opened up and killed 5 Greenscales and put 2 wounds on Nilfheim before being killed by Ice Shards and Greenscale attacks. However in that same time period Nilfheim largely accepted the Greenscale losses in order to Ice Shard the 1 defense goblins.

Goblins did manage to kill a few more greenscales and tie up Nilfheim for another wound (though not for long tieing him up) in order to let the Ukushisa involved.

They killed the last greenscales who had encroached into the SZ, but Nilf was positioned on height and made it very difficult to get multiple engagements. The Firecats put a few more wounds on Nilfheim, but couldn't quite bring the Ice Dragon down.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

4 OMs

Used all 3 Blaze Token

Never used Lava Resistance.

First OM 3 alive - Used Blaze, move boost allowed attack on Nilf: killed 2 GS and 1w Nilf
2nd OM 2 alive - Used Blaze, move boost allowed attack on Nilf, 1w Nilf
3rd OM 1 alive - Used Blaze, attack vs. Nilf blocked
4th OM 1 alive - no blazes left, attack vs. Nilf Blocked


Damage: 2 GS, 2w Nilfheim (~100)


Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

I think these felines could be pretty potent when facing a wounded spread out force endgame. Nilfheim on height doesn't quite meet that standard and even though they filled their points, they didn't get Nilf swarmed due to his positioning and potent ice attacks.

edit: I don't really think there is much decision points around Inflame. It's a unique squad so you don't know how long they'll be around to be choosy about using those 3 tokens. Anytime you are able to make an attack, you will use Inflame. If you wanted to make it more of a decision point you have to tie it to a negative. Losing defense, or killing an Ukushisa every time you use a marker (obviously you would need to give a significant boost if choosing a kill) Or maybe you just have 1 or 2 markers and everytime one of your Ukushisa ends the round on a lava space you gain a marker back..

All Your Pie
December 8th, 2019, 05:42 PM
Alright, at this point I can agree that the testing consensus is that Inflame/Blaze isn't all that interesting of a decision to make. We're probably best served workshopping another way for the power to function.

Personally, I stand by what I said in that changing it from markers to once per round doesn't feel like an improvement in terms of decision making. It does make the mechanic a little more clean, though, and it doesn't present the appearance of decision making where there isn't much.

I think, though, that I'd rather see some other function for the markers in addition or some downside to losing markers. Something like:

Searing Body
Before rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent figure with a member of the Ukushisa Pride, you may remove a Blaze counter from this card. If you do, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Or (with a drop to 3 or 4 defense)

Flame Barrier
When rolling defense dice with a member of the Ukushisa Pride that does not occupy a water space, you may roll one additional die for each blaze counter on this card.

Something along those lines is my preference. Thoughts?

Scytale
December 8th, 2019, 08:15 PM
Personally, I stand by what I said in that changing it from markers to once per round doesn't feel like an improvement in terms of decision making. It does make the mechanic a little more clean, though, and it doesn't present the appearance of decision making where there isn't much.
That I have to disagree with. As they are, the Pride are pretty sharky. That's to be expected; they're a unique melee squad. Once you get them into combat, you will want to get use out of them before they go down. That makes it difficult to maximize Blaze; if you have to wait whole rounds between activations, you will likely not have them alive long enough to use them again. You have to be careful to time the uses to maximize Blaze, which will, at the least, push people toward trying to time a 3rd order marker usage, or be picky about what turns Blaze is used on.

I'm not thrilled about adding another power, especially if the goal is to try to make not-valuable markers valuable. The right decision is to dump the markers. But let's take a look at these.

Searing Body

Before rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent figure with a member of the Ukushisa Pride, you may remove a Blaze counter from this card. If you do, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.
I'd rather dump the markers and just give them counterstrike. This is just a more limited version, and since it's a unique squad they probably don't need the limitation.

Flame Barrier
When rolling defense dice with a member of the Ukushisa Pride that does not occupy a water space, you may roll one additional die for each blaze counter on this card.
That's pretty interesting. As I noted, I don't like adding another power to make the markers useful, but this makes for more interesting decisions about whether or not to use them up.

The Long eared bat
December 10th, 2019, 01:40 PM
I have come up with two alternative powers what do you think?

PRIDE HUNT
Start the game with 3 Hunt markers on this army card. Before moving, you may choose a unique hero figure within 7 clear sight spaces for each member of the Ukushisa Pride. Place a Hunt marker on that figure's card. The Ukushisa may roll one additional attack die for each Hunt marker on a figure's army card.

BLAZE
Before moving, choose one opponent's fgure. The Ukushisa Pride may roll two additional attack dice when attacking the chosen figure.

robbdaman
December 10th, 2019, 05:01 PM
What about something like:

RAGING BLAZE
If the Ukushisa Pride destroyed at least one opponent's figure this turn, place a Blaze counter on their army card. At the end of their turn if Ukushisa Pride did not destroy at least one opponent's figure remove a Blaze counter from their army card. For each Blaze counter on Ukushisa Pride's army card add 1 to this card's move, attack and defense values. The Ukushisa Pride may not add Blaze counters if any of them are on a water space.

They'd feed their flames and get stronger and stronger unless they fail to kill then they get weaker.

lefton4ya
December 11th, 2019, 11:07 AM
robbdaman I like it in theory not sure after playtesting if too strong. Basically like Tagawa Samurai (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8400)'s Bloodlust turned even sharkier [sic]. I tweaked your wording a bit, but still very wordy:
For each turn of Blazing Firecats, if an opponent's figure is destroyed place a Blaze Counter on this card, and if an opponent's figure is not destroyed remove a Blaze Counter on this card. For each Blaze counter on Ukushisa Pride's army card, add 1 to this card's move, attack and defense values. The Ukushisa Pride may not add Blaze counters if any of them are on a water space. A maximum of 3 Blaze Counters can be placed on this card.

Does make them interesting mechanic. Opponent will have a tough time though as basically they will have to run away/kite but with them being so fast and if you use BFs in the middle or end of the game it might be almost impossible to kill them, making them crazy good cleanup figures.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 11:38 AM
Personally, I think we should try to get away from counters at all. It's a complexity that should only be used when the design requires it, not make a design to use them.

For example,
BLAZE
Before taking a turn with the Ukushisa Pride, if none of your Ukushisa Pride are on water spaces, you may Blaze. Add 2 to their Move and Attack values for that turn. At the end of that turn, roll one attack dice. If you roll a skull, you must destroy one of your Ukushisa Pride.

lefton4ya
December 11th, 2019, 12:47 PM
I don't like killing unique squad figures to boost almost as much as don't like Deathwalker 7000's Self-Destruct.

How about increasing attack & move at the expense of decreasing defense? Can be for round using X order marker, but counters are better IMHO. I guess we could make it where you can add/subtract a counter per turn, or some trigger like destroying a figure to add a counter, or rolling no excess shields to remove.

Another alternative is have similar mechanic that they get stronger as they die, but should be different than B-11 Resistance Corps (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=48986)'s TO THE LAST MAN

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 01:01 PM
Lowering defense of a unique melee squad isn't all that much different than auto-destroying one, really. The only thing these guys can hope to rely on once they charge in is their high defense.

robbdaman
December 11th, 2019, 01:49 PM
robbdaman I like it in theory not sure after playtesting if too strong. Basically like Tagawa Samurai (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8400)'s Bloodlust turned even sharkier [sic]. I tweaked your wording a bit, but still very wordy:
For each turn of Blazing Firecats, if an opponent's figure is destroyed place a Blaze Counter on this card, and if an opponent's figure is not destroyed remove a Blaze Counter on this card. For each Blaze counter on Ukushisa Pride's army card, add 1 to this card's move, attack and defense values. The Ukushisa Pride may not add Blaze counters if any of them are on a water space. A maximum of 3 Blaze Counters can be placed on this card.

Does make them interesting mechanic. Opponent will have a tough time though as basically they will have to run away/kite but with them being so fast and if you use BFs in the middle or end of the game it might be almost impossible to kill them, making them crazy good cleanup figures.

Yeah, I was questioning whether it'd need an upper limit or not. If they can get into the mix with a bunch of squadies they can get huge bonuses so +3 may be reasonable. Could just have it boost move and attack so they are vulnerable to be killed as any normal 1 life unit. Other ideas may work better for a unique squad, so it was just a thought.

BLAZE
Before taking a turn with the Ukushisa Pride, if none of your Ukushisa Pride are on water spaces, you may Blaze. Add 2 to their Move and Attack values for that turn. At the end of that turn, roll one attack dice. If you roll a skull, you must destroy one of your Ukushisa Pride.

Similar to the Wolves of Badru, not sure that'd be good for a unique squad that is pricier though.

The Long eared bat
December 11th, 2019, 01:51 PM
I am against the Ukushisa destroying themselves. We need to make the powers simple. I like lefton4ya idea of using a version of the B-11 Resistance Corps's TO THE LAST MAN:

PRIDE REVENGE
Add 1 to the Ukushisa Pride's Move and Attack values for each previously destroyed Ukushisa Pride member on this Army Card. The Ukushisa Pride may not Add 1 to their Move and Attack values if any of them are on a water space.

Or a power that ties nicely to the pride theme.

PRIDE HUNT
Before moving, choose one opponent's fgure. The Ukushisa Pride may roll two additional attack dice when attacking the chosen figure. The Ukushisa Pride may not use Pride Hunt if any of them are on a water space.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 02:03 PM
BLAZE
When an Ukushisa Pride is destroyed, place it on this Army Card. Before taking a turn with the Ukushisa Pride, you may remove an Ukushisa Pride from this Army Card to add 2 to their Move and Attack for that turn.

lefton4ya
December 11th, 2019, 02:05 PM
I GOT IT! I took a page from one of my own customs, my Troglodyte Brutes (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/showimage.php?i=10324&original=1)

Blaze
Add 1 to the move and attack of each Ukushisa Pride figure that started their turn next to at least one figure with Lava Resistance
A stronger form:
Add 1 to the move and attack of each Ukushisa Pride figure for each figure with Lava Resistance adjacent to that Ukushisa Pride figure at the start of their turn.
Either are simple, add synergy to other LR figures in AotV or other sets, keeps them in packs, keeps them as sharks, has theme of Fires Blazing stronger together, and doesn't use counters.

The Long eared bat
December 11th, 2019, 02:12 PM
Add 1 to the move and attack of each Ukushisa Pride figure for each figure with Lava Resistance adjacent to that Ukushisa Pride figure at the start of their.

Love it. Should we add a limit like up to maximum of +3 for Blazing Attack.

robbdaman
December 11th, 2019, 03:01 PM
That would make them weaker as their pride dies though, reducing their usefulness. Seems like the opposite of what you'd want.

flameslayer93
December 11th, 2019, 03:01 PM
Add 1 to the move and attack of each Ukushisa Pride figure for each figure with Lava Resistance adjacent to that Ukushisa Pride figure at the start of their.

Love it. Should we add a limit like up to maximum of +3 for Blazing Attack.

This is the strongest version of this power Iíve seen. Good one lefty.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 03:18 PM
That would make them weaker as their pride dies though, reducing their usefulness. Seems like the opposite of what you'd want.
I am concerned about that. I'm also not in love with the minor memory mechanic of having to remember which Pride started where.

All Your Pie
December 11th, 2019, 03:28 PM
Whichever way we go, it looks like we should circle back to design here.

Is that something we should vote on, or should I just update the thread title?

The Long eared bat
December 11th, 2019, 03:37 PM
Whichever way we go, it looks like we should circle back to design here.

Is that something we should vote on, or should I just update the thread title?

I don't think we need a vote because no one is happy with a power. Just update the thread title.

flameslayer93
December 11th, 2019, 03:57 PM
That would make them weaker as their pride dies though, reducing their usefulness. Seems like the opposite of what you'd want.
I am concerned about that. I'm also not in love with the minor memory mechanic of having to remember which Pride started where.

Shark units generally become weaker as the minis die off, and unique squads are no different. If you want to prevent memory games, just boost move/attack by 1 or 2 a la Tricky Speed.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 05:17 PM
That would make them weaker as their pride dies though, reducing their usefulness. Seems like the opposite of what you'd want.
I am concerned about that. I'm also not in love with the minor memory mechanic of having to remember which Pride started where.

Shark units generally become weaker as the minis die off, and unique squads are no different. If you want to prevent memory games, just boost move/attack by 1 or 2 a la Tricky Speed.
Tricky Speed has the advantage of being on a Hero. That's a single figure. With a squad, you need to remember the original position of each. On top of that, they boost each other, so simply remembering where one started is not enough, you have to remember if the others started adjacent.

It's not terrible, but it doesn't feel elegant.

lefton4ya
December 11th, 2019, 05:25 PM
If a Ukushisa Pride figure starts their move adjacent to a figure with Lava Resistance, add 2 to its move. When making an attack with Ukushisa Pride, add one attack die for each adjacent figure with Lava Resistance, up to a maximum of +3 for the Blazing power.
Removes "memory mechanic" and keeps movement not reliant on # of figures, but still attack does go down as they die, IMHO this is very thematic of a fire dying out when you spread the embers. You can also split each line of my above suggestion to two separate powers. Also makes it interesting choices as you have to pay attention to the order of movement to get the movement bonus you need.

Also note as worded both teammate's and opponent's figures with Lava resistance assist in the powers, but IMHO it is also thematic and makes sense in-game as counter to LR units. I had a similar idea with my Troglodyte Brutes, that makes for fun counter-drafting in home games but also a nice bonus in tournaments.

robbdaman
December 11th, 2019, 05:27 PM
I was just expressing that if the desire was to want to boost them similarly to the B-11 that's going down and not up. Maybe that isn't the desire, I don't have a horse in this race but if I did I'd go with a power that doesn't get less useful.

All Your Pie
December 11th, 2019, 06:12 PM
What are we actually going for here? Are we looking to have just any power that gives a conditional attack boost, or do we want this unit to remain effective endgame sharks? If we want the latter, then getting a boost from being adjacent to each other doesn't fit the bill. Not being able to spread out effectively would be a huge disadvantage in that scenario.

On the other hand, power ideas that power up the remaining Ukushisa when one or more of them are destroyed would be quite effective in that scenario. TLEB's Pride Revenge looks pretty good to me, although with that direction I'd just drop the water space limitation. I'm a little concerned that it's a lot less interesting than the B-11's similar power is, though. A ranged squad that goes from 2/2 to 5/5 as it loses members starts to play differently as it dwindles, where as going from 6 move 3 attack to 8 move 5 attack on 1 figure doesn't end up being that threatening.

How about a more aggressive spin on things? Could we maybe nix the move boost on pride revenge, but bump the attack boost to 2? Suddenly, you go from a fairly ho-hum 3 attacks of 3, 2 attacks of 4, 1 attack of 5 to a very scary 3 of 3, 2 of 5, and 1 of 7.

Fakeraistlin
December 11th, 2019, 06:37 PM
Personally, I stand by what I said in that changing it from markers to once per round doesn't feel like an improvement in terms of decision making. It does make the mechanic a little more clean, though, and it doesn't present the appearance of decision making where there isn't much.
That I have to disagree with. As they are, the Pride are pretty sharky. That's to be expected; they're a unique melee squad. Once you get them into combat, you will want to get use out of them before they go down. That makes it difficult to maximize Blaze; if you have to wait whole rounds between activations, you will likely not have them alive long enough to use them again. You have to be careful to time the uses to maximize Blaze, which will, at the least, push people toward trying to time a 3rd order marker usage, or be picky about what turns Blaze is used on.

I'm not thrilled about adding another power, especially if the goal is to try to make not-valuable markers valuable. The right decision is to dump the markers. But let's take a .

Opps.. i playtested with them with no limit on activation,
and got close enough , to take down q9 and win. It was fun sneaking around the LOS blockers and then going for the kill. Though I got lucky with the defense roll on a round of attacks from q9 on the cats that should have taken them out by the q9 gun.

Map: River Ruin Divide
Highest d20 roll determines choice of glyph (attack or defense)
I won and choose attack glyph on my side (see map below)

AToP map components used only except attack and defense glyph.

400 Point Armies

Bros Army - Q9, Nakita Agents,Krav Mag Agents

Ukushisa Pride - Blazing Firecats ,Iron Golem ,Raelin,Rats,Dead Eye Dan,Isamu

Round 7 win

1 UP Cat remaining
1 life Golem
Full Squad of rats
Dead Eye Dan 60
Isamu 10

map:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/02yhesy1myx82eu/river_ruin_divide.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/02yhesy1myx82eu/river_ruin_divide.jpg


aftermath:
http://http://www.mediafire.com/view/wjxvmogolcdv0er/upvsq9.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/view/wjxvmogolcdv0er/upvsq9.jpg)

The Long eared bat
December 12th, 2019, 12:01 PM
What are we actually going for here? Are we looking to have just any power that gives a conditional attack boost, or do we want this unit to remain effective endgame sharks? If we want the latter, then getting a boost from being adjacent to each other doesn't fit the bill. Not being able to spread out effectively would be a huge disadvantage in that scenario.

On the other hand, power ideas that power up the remaining Ukushisa when one or more of them are destroyed would be quite effective in that scenario. TLEB's Pride Revenge looks pretty good to me, although with that direction I'd just drop the water space limitation. I'm a little concerned that it's a lot less interesting than the B-11's similar power is, though. A ranged squad that goes from 2/2 to 5/5 as it loses members starts to play differently as it dwindles, where as going from 6 move 3 attack to 8 move 5 attack on 1 figure doesn't end up being that threatening.

How about a more aggressive spin on things? Could we maybe nix the move boost on pride revenge, but bump the attack boost to 2? Suddenly, you go from a fairly ho-hum 3 attacks of 3, 2 attacks of 4, 1 attack of 5 to a very scary 3 of 3, 2 of 5, and 1 of 7.

So something like this:
PRIDE REVENGE
Add 1 to the Ukushisa Pride's Move number and add 2 to their Attack number for each previously destroyed Ukushisa Pride member on this Army Card.

The Long eared bat
January 26th, 2020, 10:30 AM
Bump. Do people like this direction:
PRIDE REVENGE
Add 1 to the Ukushisa Pride's Move number and add 2 to their Attack number for each previously destroyed Ukushisa Pride member on this Army Card.

flameslayer93
January 26th, 2020, 02:02 PM
The direction works, but I don’t like giving a solo squad figure +4 attack. I could see +2M/+1A here, though.

lefton4ya
January 27th, 2020, 11:50 AM
I think we need to have a philosophical debate/vote before honing the powers as there is to conflicting directions:
Q: which is more thematic as well as a better power:

Get stronger as they die (similar but should be different than B-11 Resistance Corps (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=48986)'s TO THE LAST MAN)
Stronger in packs and weaker as they die

I think both are viable alternatives both thematically as well as for in-game strategy. As I mentioned earlier, the "stronger in packs" makes sense as it is like a fire that it is stronger the more the coals are closer together and weaker spread apart. However if the heat is powered by anger/revenge then after one dies that makes sense thematically. And as far as strategically, if the power was based on them together then they are definitely Sharks that should be used either early or mid-game, but if they are stringer as they die then they are definitely Cleanup that should be used late game, except maybe in certain circumstances where you use them to draw fire. Having high defense of 5, they are Mencaers as well either way we go. If you don't know what I mean by Shark, Clean-Up, or Mencaers, see What's in an Order Marker (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=12071) (required reading for every heroscape player).

So basically my question is do you prefer the UKUSHISA PRIDE as:

Sharks powered by heat of each other
Cleanup powered by anger/revenge

We need to agree democratically or at least have consensus on the above before we can move on.

Scytale
January 27th, 2020, 04:48 PM
I'd prefer the sharky vanguard striker unit, in the sense that we're making a pack unit. It feels more thematically right that they should function better as a pack.

That said, why is this an A vs B choice? We aren't limited by anything here. Personally I'd rather brainstorm more ideas based on what we had before to see if we can make it something more interesting. There are lots of things we haven't tried. Just an example,

BLAZE
At the start of each of the Ukushisa Pride's turns, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12-16, Ukushisa Pride figures that do not start their movement in a water space may move 2 additional spaces and roll 1 additional die when attacking. If they roll a 17 or higher, they may move 4 additional spaces and roll 2 additional dice when attacking.

Pumpkin_King
February 1st, 2020, 03:52 AM
I like that Blaze power. Feels Wolves-ey in a good way.

All Your Pie
February 23rd, 2020, 08:21 PM
I'd prefer the sharky vanguard striker unit, in the sense that we're making a pack unit. It feels more thematically right that they should function better as a pack.

That said, why is this an A vs B choice? We aren't limited by anything here. Personally I'd rather brainstorm more ideas based on what we had before to see if we can make it something more interesting. There are lots of things we haven't tried. Just an example,

BLAZE
At the start of each of the Ukushisa Pride's turns, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12-16, Ukushisa Pride figures that do not start their movement in a water space may move 2 additional spaces and roll 1 additional die when attacking. If they roll a 17 or higher, they may move 4 additional spaces and roll 2 additional dice when attacking.

I'm happy to keep brainstorming (in my reply to this idea almost a month later), I'm not in love with that Blaze power though. It's functional, but it's also an unmitigated throw of the dice that decides how efficient your turn will be. Not as bad as Javelin but not as good as Unleashed Fury.

Here's a wild idea:

Explosive Charge Special Attack
Range 1 Attack 9
Instead of attacking normally with the Ukushisa, if all thre Ukushisa are adjacent to the same figure and were not adjacent to that figure at the start of this turn, they may roll their attack dice as one combined attack. The defending figure compares height to the lowest Ukushisa when determining height advantage.

This maybe isn't it, but I agree I like a first strike unit better than a cleanup unit here.

Pumpkin_King
April 13th, 2020, 01:53 AM
Bumping this for the design team.

Scytale
April 13th, 2020, 11:53 AM
Here's a wild idea:

Explosive Charge Special Attack
Range 1 Attack 9
Instead of attacking normally with the Ukushisa, if all thre Ukushisa are adjacent to the same figure and were not adjacent to that figure at the start of this turn, they may roll their attack dice as one combined attack. The defending figure compares height to the lowest Ukushisa when determining height advantage.
It's thematically cool, but very limited in use (useless once one is dead) and very anti-hero.

lefton4ya
April 13th, 2020, 12:17 PM
I think most people (including our Pod members All Your Pie, Scytale, lefton4ya, not sure on Fakeraistlin or Jaur0n) would prefer them have a power that is boosted when they are in packs. I think we have consensus we would like to make the have simpler powers. As such, our suggestions so far to make them simpler:

Not have a memory mechanic during attack phase of who was next to who at start of turn.
No 20-Sided die roll or any re-roll for each figure/attack (to cut down on # of dice rolls)
Using Counters (that came with AotP) are acceptable as long as is thematic and easy


Of those some partially well received suggestions that matched were:
Start the game with three Blaze counters on this Army Card. Before moving, you may remove a Blaze counter to add 2 to this card's Move value and 1 to its Attack value for the remainder of that turn. The Ukushisa Pride may not Inflame if any of them are on a water space.
Playtesting on this showed it was not that powerful, however. We can tweak somehow to be stronger, but having them die (or even possibility to die) to blaze was considered NOT acceptable.
If a Ukushisa Pride figure starts their move adjacent to a figure with Lava Resistance, add 2 to its move. When making an attack with Ukushisa Pride, add one attack die for each adjacent figure with Lava Resistance, up to a maximum of +3 for the Blazing power.
This was my suggestion, again each line can be split to two powers and "figure with Lava Resistance" can be changed to "Ukushisa Pride figure" for one or both lines/powers, and some restriction on water could be added too. IMHO this is the most thematic (helps keeping in pack) and simplest power suggested but simplest is not always best.
At the start of each of the Ukushisa Pride's turns, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12-16, Ukushisa Pride figures that do not start their movement in a water space may move 2 additional spaces and roll 1 additional die when attacking. If they roll a 17 or higher, they may move 4 additional spaces and roll 2 additional dice when attacking.
This is similar to Anubian Wolves and Marro Hounds powers but IMHO is different enough to feel warranted. Will need wording cleaning up though as the 17+ "they" is not clear. Also does not use the "pack" mechanic, you could add one such as "add 1 to your roll for each Ukushisa Pride figure adjacent to at least one other [Ukushisa Pride figure / figure with Lava Resistance]" but would make wording even more wonky/complicated.

Any other suggestions/clean-up of one of the above before we start "voting" on suggestions?

The Long eared bat
April 13th, 2020, 12:28 PM
If a Ukushisa Pride figure starts their move adjacent to a figure with Lava Resistance, add 2 to its move. When making an attack with Ukushisa Pride, add one attack die for each adjacent figure with Lava Resistance, up to a maximum of +3 for the Blazing power.

I would prefer this or something similar.

Scytale
April 13th, 2020, 12:47 PM
Start the game with three Blaze counters on this Army Card. Before moving, you may remove a Blaze counter to add 2 to this card's Move value and 1 to its Attack value for the remainder of that turn. The Ukushisa Pride may not Inflame if any of them are on a water space.The problem with this wasn't power, it that it didn't provide any choices. There's very little reason not to use the counters as fast as possible. That makes the power not worthwhile.

If a Ukushisa Pride figure starts their move adjacent to a figure with Lava Resistance, add 2 to its move. When making an attack with Ukushisa Pride, add one attack die for each adjacent figure with Lava Resistance, up to a maximum of +3 for the Blazing power.What I don't like about this is that the movement boost is weird for a squad. If two Pride are next to each other, the first one to move gets boosted, but the second does not.

Pumpkin_King
April 13th, 2020, 01:00 PM
Pti, but you guys should consider just going with First Strike.

Leaf_It
April 13th, 2020, 02:52 PM
pti, But what if it was just "When taking a turn with the Ukushisa Pride, if all Ukushisa Pride are adjacent to at least 1 Ukushisa pride, add 2 to their move." or "adjacent to a figure with the Lava Resistance ability" Then they all get the bonus.

The Long eared bat
April 15th, 2020, 08:53 AM
If a Ukushisa Pride figure starts their move turn adjacent to a figure with Lava Resistance, add 2 to its move. When making an attack with Ukushisa Pride, add one attack die for each adjacent figure with Lava Resistance, up to a maximum of +3 for the Blazing power.

Does that sort out the weird move boost?

Scytale
April 15th, 2020, 10:53 AM
If a Ukushisa Pride figure starts their move turn adjacent to a figure with Lava Resistance, add 2 to its move. When making an attack with Ukushisa Pride, add one attack die for each adjacent figure with Lava Resistance, up to a maximum of +3 for the Blazing power.Does that sort out the weird move boost?
It does.

Not sure I'm sold on the idea, though. It doesn't offer much in terms of gameplay decisions (you'll just always keep them together), and the usual problem of unique squads that they get worse with losses is that much worse for them. It's also thematically odd that they get boosted by figures like Brunak, but not terrible.

It does "force" two gameplay mechanics we might like, though. First, they will stick together in a pack as much as possible (almost acting like a single, flexible hero in a lot of ways), and they will effectively "blaze out" quickly as soon as they take losses.

Pumpkin_King
April 18th, 2020, 10:34 PM
Pti, but you guys should consider just going with First Strike.

Bumping. Was there a reason we skipped this?

Scytale
April 18th, 2020, 10:46 PM
Pti, but you guys should consider just going with First Strike.

Bumping. Was there a reason we skipped this?
It's not bad, but we wanted to capture something of them being living fire thematically. It also doesn't make them play pack-like, another desired goal.

Pumpkin_King
April 18th, 2020, 10:49 PM
Understandable!

NecroBlade
April 19th, 2020, 11:35 AM
It's not bad, but we wanted to capture something of them being living fire thematically. It also doesn't make them play pack-like, another desired goal.

Floated in the Discord for "pack-like":

NOT ZETTIAN TARGETING
When attacking, add 1 die for each time the defending figure was previously attacked this turn.


And for "living fire":

COMBINED HEAT
Add 1 Attack and Defense for each adjacent Ukushisa Pride.

Just food for thought as you rework these cats.

Scytale
April 19th, 2020, 12:02 PM
COMBINED HEAT
Add 1 Attack and Defense for each adjacent Ukushisa Pride.
With this has problems like other pack powers (not all that interesting tactically and losing figures is even worse than usual), I really like the simplicity. And the theme is there with the name. Remember, the target audience is new players, so simple is especially good.

All Your Pie
April 19th, 2020, 01:34 PM
Iíd be willing to give that a try. What base values do we want to pair with it? I think I like 7 move, but not sure on attack/defense. I think 3A could be a little too good against heroes, since theyíll have the easiest time piling on three attacks of 5 on one target. Iíd rather take 2A and pair it with a high defense number, 4 or maybe even 5.

Scytale
April 19th, 2020, 06:57 PM
Iíd be willing to give that a try. What base values do we want to pair with it? I think I like 7 move, but not sure on attack/defense. I think 3A could be a little too good against heroes, since theyíll have the easiest time piling on three attacks of 5 on one target. Iíd rather take 2A and pair it with a high defense number, 4 or maybe even 5.
2A is pretty bad for when they are down to a single figure. Maybe we can consider softening it a bit to keep the base numbers up:

COMBINED HEAT
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride.

All Your Pie
April 20th, 2020, 01:49 AM
Iíd be willing to give that a try. What base values do we want to pair with it? I think I like 7 move, but not sure on attack/defense. I think 3A could be a little too good against heroes, since theyíll have the easiest time piling on three attacks of 5 on one target. Iíd rather take 2A and pair it with a high defense number, 4 or maybe even 5.
2A is pretty bad for when they are down to a single figure. Maybe we can consider softening it a bit to keep the base numbers up:

COMBINED HEAT
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride.
Hm actually, I kinda messed up visualizing the initial power. Getting 3 attacks of 5 against a single target would be impossible, since I canít think of a way for all three Ukushisa to be adjacent to each other and also a single enemy figure. With 3A, it would be hits of 4, 4, and 5, which is a little less troublesome. 3 attacks of 5 would be possible against different targets, but would be a little difficult to pull off.

That being the case, I think Iím fine with 3A either way. Iím also fine with 5D in either case, Iím happy to let them be fairly tough. I actually think thereís a bit of an interesting wrinkle to giving +1 for each adjacent on the defensive end. Keeping the pride at 7D would be tricky, maybe in a good way? You could let two hang at 6D with one at 7 in the middle, but the weaker ones would be targeted first.

Scytale
April 20th, 2020, 10:35 AM
Iíd be willing to give that a try. What base values do we want to pair with it? I think I like 7 move, but not sure on attack/defense. I think 3A could be a little too good against heroes, since theyíll have the easiest time piling on three attacks of 5 on one target. Iíd rather take 2A and pair it with a high defense number, 4 or maybe even 5.
2A is pretty bad for when they are down to a single figure. Maybe we can consider softening it a bit to keep the base numbers up:

COMBINED HEAT
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride.
Hm actually, I kinda messed up visualizing the initial power. Getting 3 attacks of 5 against a single target would be impossible, since I canít think of a way for all three Ukushisa to be adjacent to each other and also a single enemy figure. With 3A, it would be hits of 4, 4, and 5, which is a little less troublesome. 3 attacks of 5 would be possible against different targets, but would be a little difficult to pull off.

That being the case, I think Iím fine with 3A either way. Iím also fine with 5D in either case, Iím happy to let them be fairly tough. I actually think thereís a bit of an interesting wrinkle to giving +1 for each adjacent on the defensive end. Keeping the pride at 7D would be tricky, maybe in a good way? You could let two hang at 6D with one at 7 in the middle, but the weaker ones would be targeted first.
I'm good with 3A, but 5D (usually 6) is on the high side. It will keep the price painfully high. I'd rather push them more toward the glass cannon side to keep the cost down.

lefton4ya
April 20th, 2020, 12:34 PM
...
COMBINED HEAT
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride.
I like above. However it no longer has the move bonus suggested so as long as we up the base move to 7 or 8 in line with other hounds in the game, I'd be fine. 3 attack and either 4 or 5 base defense and ~100 points seem fine. Unlike Krav Maga Agents who have Range and Stealth Dodge, this unique squad will be melee and have no auto-defensive power, so I think the extra base Defense +1 for adjacent gives them about same stamina as KMA but less kiting ability brings there attack ability down.

Also thematically I'd like to change "adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride" to "adjacent to at least one other figure with Lava Resistance" as when mixing this unit with the rest of scape it gives some synergy (plus some counter-drafting to opponents with Lava Resistant figures in home games).

COMBINED HEAT
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other figure with Lava Resistance.
So to fine tune if we went with above or Scytale's original suggestion, where are we with stats:

M: 6 / 7 / 8
A: 3
D: 4 / 5
Points: 100

Scytale
April 20th, 2020, 12:42 PM
Also thematically I'd like to change "adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride" to "adjacent to at least one other figure with Lava Resistance" as when mixing this unit with the rest of scape it gives some synergy (plus some counter-drafting to opponents with Lava Resistant figures in home games).
Thematically I don't like that. Why would an Iron Golem boost them?

lefton4ya
April 20th, 2020, 01:15 PM
COMBINED HEAT - It's in the power name. Thematically units with Lava Resistance are usually hotter than other units, so UKUSHISA PRIDE can use that heat, similar to coals in a fire, or running hot water back though the same hot pipes. I guess Iron Golem break that theme as they are not necessarily hotter themselves just immune to heat, but kinda still makes sense in my mind. Take or leave my suggestion, maybe I am trying to force synergy where none is needed, but IMHO it make sense.

LR Figures:
Avernus (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56302)
Brunak (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8584)
Fire Elemental (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29585)
Iron Golem (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31388)
Moltenclaw (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33385)
Obsidian Guards (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8117)
Shurrak (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31403)
Any figure with the Gem of Lava Resistance (Lava Resistant) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41592) (PDF) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=3696)

Scytale
April 20th, 2020, 01:22 PM
COMBINED HEAT - It's in the power name. Thematically units with Lava Resistance are usually hotter than other units, so UKUSHISA PRIDE can use that heat, similar to coals in a fire, or running hot water back though the same hot pipes. I guess Iron Golem break that theme as they are not necessarily hotter themselves just immune to heat, but kinda still makes sense in my mind. Take or leave my suggestion, maybe I am trying to force synergy where none is needed, but IMHO it make sense.

LR Figures:

Avernus (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56302)
Brunak (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8584)
Fire Elemental (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29585)
Iron Golem (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31388)
Moltenclaw (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33385)
Obsidian Guards (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8117)
Shurrak (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31403)
Any figure with the Gem of Lava Resistance (Lava Resistant) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41592) (PDF) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=3696)


Some Lava Resistant figure are hot (Fire Elemental, Obsidians), but many are not. I don't see Brunak, Iron Golem, Moltenclaw, or Shurrak as radiating heat. Lava Resistant doesn't mean "hot," it means resistant to heat.

flameslayer93
April 20th, 2020, 02:57 PM
I can reasonably see 7/1/3/3 for these kitties if you want to keep them cheap. I can also see up to +1A and +2D if you want them to be stronger.

If you wanted to go even more glass cannon, base 4A and 2D will paint them similarly to the Kozukes.

Scytale
April 20th, 2020, 03:23 PM
If you wanted to go even more glass cannon, base 4A and 2D will paint them similarly to the Kozukes.
Personally I'd prefer the menacer route, but leaning towards shark to keep the cost down. I like (with the original unbounded Combined Heat bonus):

Move: 7
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 4

Cost 90ish

All Your Pie
April 25th, 2020, 09:02 PM
I'm a little concerned about making another 3-man, melee, beefy stats squad when the Velnesh are already sitting in that area. I'm happy with those stats for this direction though.

Any better names than Combined Heat? How about Ukushisa Bonfire?

The Long eared bat
April 26th, 2020, 06:48 AM
I am happy with this direction. What about Ukushisa Inflame or Ukushisa Inferno for a name.

lefton4ya
April 26th, 2020, 05:18 PM
So do we all agree on this then:

Move: 7
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 4

Cost ~90

UKUSHISA [HEAT, BLAZE, FLAME, INFERNO]
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride.

LAVA RESISTANCE

All Your Pie
April 26th, 2020, 05:37 PM
I'm in favor of +1 for each adjacent Ukushisa. I believe Scytale is as well. We can adjust that in testing if that's too fiddly a benefit to be worth trying for, I think either version of the power is workable.

Scytale
April 27th, 2020, 10:59 AM
I'm in favor of +1 for each adjacent Ukushisa. I believe Scytale is as well. We can adjust that in testing if that's too fiddly a benefit to be worth trying for, I think either version of the power is workable.
Yes, those stats were suggested with +1 for each in mind.

Pumpkin_King
May 1st, 2020, 04:22 PM
Not a bad power. Simple enough that it seems like it’s a Master Set Power. I like it.

The Long eared bat
May 13th, 2020, 01:33 PM
So do we all agree on this then:

Move: 7
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 4

Cost ~90

UKUSHISA [HEAT, BLAZE, FLAME, INFERNO]
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride.

LAVA RESISTANCE

Are we happy to progress on this.

Scytale
May 13th, 2020, 02:02 PM
So do we all agree on this then:

Move: 7
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 4

Cost ~90

UKUSHISA [HEAT, BLAZE, FLAME, INFERNO]
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die if that Ukushisa Pride is adjacent to at least one other Ukushisa Pride.

LAVA RESISTANCE

Are we happy to progress on this.
No, not quite. I prefer this version at this statline:


UKUSHISA [HEAT, BLAZE, FLAME, INFERNO]
When attacking or defending with an Ukushisa Pride, add one additional die for each adjacent Ukushisa Pride.

lefton4ya
May 13th, 2020, 03:23 PM
I like Scytale's version as well, testing will prove if 5 attack and 6 defense it too much.

The Long eared bat
May 13th, 2020, 05:05 PM
I skimmed that power and assumed it was +1 for each Ukushia my bad. Yeah I also prefer Scytale 's version. Now we need to name it.

NecroBlade
May 13th, 2020, 10:27 PM
Am I the only one that thinks Ukashisa XYZ sounds silly for this power? Not saying there may not be something better than Combined Heat, but that gets straight to the point of getting the theme across while Ukashisa XYZ sounds like it should be a special attack or do something much more magical and specific.

All Your Pie
May 16th, 2020, 09:51 PM
I've listed it in the OP as Combined heat for now. That name and others we can brainstorm further as we move back into Playtesting.

:up: to return to testing from me.

I think someone brought it up before, but Ukushisa Pride reads increasingly awkwardly in power text. How about Ukushisa Pridehunters or something?

The Long eared bat
May 17th, 2020, 01:22 PM
Ukushisa Pridehunters sounds fine to me. :up: for testing.

lefton4ya
May 21st, 2020, 10:50 AM
:up:

Scytale
May 21st, 2020, 10:53 AM
:up:

All Your Pie
May 21st, 2020, 05:05 PM
:up:

Alrighty, weíve got enough. Do we need an editing check on the new power? Itís not complex, but it is substantially different from the old one.

Scytale
May 21st, 2020, 11:39 PM
:up:

Alrighty, weíve got enough. Do we need an editing check on the new power? Itís not complex, but it is substantially different from the old one.
Yes, this needs full Editing review.

Pumpkin_King
June 9th, 2020, 09:51 PM
Looks good guys! Powers are a good combination of theme and mechanics.

Captain Stupendous
July 28th, 2020, 06:37 PM
Map: Custom
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/703748880726229035/737781030085460038/image0.jpg

Army 1: (L) Velnesh Alphas, 12 Caucasus Rifles x3, Kursus, Yi Feng
Army 2: (J) Ukushisa Pride, Lilja, James Murphy, Marro Stingers

Which units survived? Army 1 was victorious with full life Yi Feng and Kursus and two 12th Caucasus Rifle


Turn by Turn Summary
ROUND 1
T1 L advances Russians. Keeps out of stinger threat range.
T1 J Ukushisa advance down west side. Reveal common attack glyph.

T2 Russians grenade the Ukushisa. Grenade hits and kills two Ukushisa! Russians kill the last Ukushisa from height and one Stinger with their normal attacks.
T2 Stinger drain successful. Stingers kill 1 Russian.

T3 L Russian grenade successful. Russians kill two stingers with normal attacks.
T3 Stingers kill two Russians.

ROUND 2
T1 Russians miss grenade, but kill two Stingers with normal attacks.
T1 Last stinger fails to kill a Russian.

T2 Russians kill the last stinger with a Grenade
T2 Stingers all dead

T3 Velnesh advance.
T3 J advances Lilja

ROUND 3
T1 J Advances Lilja. Misses both attacks against a Russian.
T1 L Russians miss both attacks against Lilja

T2 J Lilja misses an attack against a Velnesh. He shifts out of engagement. Lilja kills a Russian
T2 L Succeeds gas grenade on Lilja. Deals wounds with normal attacks (1 from height, both with glyph)

T3 J Lilja kills two Velnesh with her normal attack.
T3 L Velnesh deal 1 wound to Lilja.

ROUND 4
T1 J Lilja kills last Velnesh
T1 L Russians deal 1 wound to Lilja

T2 J advances Murphy. Whiffs an attack agains the russian on the attack glyph.
T2 L advances Yi Feng.

T3 J James Murphy moves adj to Russian fails whip. Shotgun blast is blocked by Russian.
T3 L Yi Feng kills Lilja. Lilja fails to deal any wounds with shards to Yi Feng.

ROUND 5
T1 L Russians deal five wounds to Murphy with their normal attacks to kill Murphy for the win.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Unfortunately the Ukushisa were all killed on the second turn due to some very unlucky defense rolls. J rolled zero skulls with his first 9 defense dice (9000 anyone?) losing two Ukushisa right at the start to the Russians’ Grenade special attack. The last Ukushisa was killed by the Russians’ normal attack that same turn. However, had they survived that initial attack from the Russians (which they statistically should have), I think the game would have gone very differently. Holding the +1 common attack glyph would have allowed his stingers to be much more effective at clearing my Russians, and the Stinger threat would have diverted my attention from the Ukushisa. However, given the way the game actually went, the firecats had relatively little impact.

The Velnesh Alphas dealt one wound to Lilja, and used Blink once to move out of engagement with Lilja after she missed her first attack. This use of Blink was relatively significant, as it prevented Lilja from attacking the Velnesh a second time with her double attack.

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

I still like the Velnesh quite a lot. Simple and effective to play. So far they haven’t had very much of an impact in my handful of playtests, but I still like where they’re at. Unfortunately I didn’t get to see much from the Ukushisa this game as they all died on turn 2. I guess the lesson here is to never underestimate the chances of rolling zero skulls with five defense :)

flameslayer93
August 1st, 2020, 08:00 AM
Game Report: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2409204&postcount=59


Main takeaway:
Ukushisas are still pretty fun, but get revenge killed pretty easily because they group up most of the time. This is a good trait because it prevents their stats from overriding their points cost. They wounded Kaemon for 2, and killed a Kozuke. A Venoc with height finished off Kaemon. The other Kozukes were killed by the Ice Elemental and Sharwin.


Other games:
LE and I have played the firecats in like 2 or 3 games on our own. Havent recorded them, but we both agree that they pass the "fun" test for sure. The above statement pretty much summarizes their role in our previous games.

NecroBlade
September 27th, 2020, 09:46 PM
Putting this up while it's still fresh.

Me: Mimring, Tarn, Pyria, Ukushisa
vs MegaSilver: Q10, Isamu, Velkohr, Velnesh

Went for a 400-ish point "Master Set" style game with several units to test and no Common Squads.


Round 1 we both led with Squads, his Velnesh and my Ukushisa, both to get at targets we deemed threats. With initiative, on OM2 he was able to Shift through the wall on my side and get height on Pyria as well as tie up the UP with the remaining 2 Velnesh (awesome moves). Unfortunately his 5 dice did nothing to Pyria and the other two attacks similarly failed, despite one getting 3 skulls. UP in turn were able to clear the 2 Velnesh. Q10 moved into Machine Pistol range and killed a Ukushisa. Last 2 UP move toward Q10 but can't engage.

Round 2 Q10 tries Wrist Rockets but UP defense holds. They retaliate with 1 damage. Wrist Rockets again, same result. The Tarn Charge twice (one more would've engaged Q10 and Isamu) but can only attack the last Velnesh, who Blinks away, but still tying things up. Velkhor flies to height on a Tarn, positioning his Aura in the middle of the board, Tarn only rolls 1 shield to 2 skulls and dies (Aura didn't matter). Three remaining Tarn all get attacks this time, another Blink, an Isamu Vanish, and 1 to Velkhor.

Round 3 Ukushisa get initiative this time and do 2 to Q10. Both Wrist Rockets roll 1 skull and do no damage. Tarn attacks get another Blink, a dead Isamu, and another 1 to Velkhor. Q10 finally succeeds in getting both UP in one turn. On OM3 Pyria fails to roast the Velnesh and Velkhor fails to kill a Tarn.

Round 4 Q10 wants to use Machine Pistol on the Tarn since he'd have range to two, but opts for Wrist Rockets on just one target because of the 1 shield minimum on the Aura, and kills it. Tarn still can't get the Velnesh to stop Blinking. Q10 moves around to Pyria and hits for 4 with Wrist Rockets. Mimring takes a max-range Fireline across the board at Q10 (both Pyria and a Tarn in the way of other angles) but doesn't hit. Velkhor brings his Aura to the Pyria fight but can't hit her. Mimring kills Q10.

Round 5 Pyria gets a Twin Flamethrower shot that kills the Velnesh and does 2 to Velkhor, and Mimring finishes him on OM2 (Spirit did nothing since he was last figure in army).


Some thoughts after the game (mainly MegaSilver's): Shift/Blink had lots of good, fun options around/through the wall, made NecroBlade think of where to position figures that weren't actively involved in attacking. Velkhor's concept of reducing defense is good, but the execution is disappointing. The 1 shield minimum made the Aura ineffective, especially felt bad rolling 1-skull attacks knowing that it couldn't help. Velnesh and Ukushisa could probably swap points, the 5A/6D of the UP did a lot of work.

My thoughts for Ukushisa specifically: they were fun. I liked the "pack" feeling of keeping them together. Their stats while they have at least a couple alive are very impressive, and made me think of the Unique Samurai Squads. At 120, the Tagawa have less Move, Attack (until Experienced), and Defense. At 100, the Kozuke have less Move (unless engaging), the same Attack, and half the Defense. Given the ability to hammer something with three attacks of 5, 110 points, between the two Samurai Squads, feels like a better starting point to me.

Pumpkin_King
October 4th, 2020, 04:01 PM
I wouldn't have guessed an increase in price.

Astroking112
October 4th, 2020, 05:00 PM
A price increase definitely sounds reasonable when comparing them against the Tagawa or the Kozuke. They are harder to position thanks to being double-spaced and wanting to maintain adjacency, but those are some pretty great stats at a great speed.

They feel like they would be very good at clean-up. For roughly 100 points, it's feasible to hold them back until the opponents are thinned out, which makes hunting stragglers significantly easier for them.

NecroBlade
October 6th, 2020, 10:13 PM
They feel like they would be very good at clean-up. For roughly 100 points, it's feasible to hold them back until the opponents are thinned out, which makes hunting stragglers significantly easier for them.

Sounds thematic. Let's make sure they get tested that way.

flameslayer93
October 10th, 2020, 11:53 AM
:up:

Alrighty, weíve got enough. Do we need an editing check on the new power? Itís not complex, but it is substantially different from the old one.
Yes, this needs full Editing review.


Would you mind knocking out the Editing Review when you get a chance so that we can say that the Ukushisa Pride are in full Playtesting mode?

NecroBlade
October 10th, 2020, 03:19 PM
Relevant comment based on flameslayer93 's analysis posts: we could possibly diversify base stats here by giving them 5D and then only having Combined Heat give an attack bonus. This lowers their starting Defense slightly (though only if you manage to keep them in triangle formation) but removes the domino effect of lower Defense every time one gets killed. Just a thought, as I'm also OK with them as-is (the bonus to both feels just as thematic). And, on a related note, I think it's worth thinking about them as reverse B-11s (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=48986). They don't have Range (or a 4th member), but they're faster and hit harder up front (with better stats than even the last B-11 gets).

Pumpkin_King
October 12th, 2020, 09:07 PM
I'd be open to that change - I'd actually prefer it for what it's worth.

Scytale
October 13th, 2020, 12:08 PM
I like that idea as well. It maintains the pack-attacking concept while simplifying the design a bit and making them less swingy.

lefton4ya
October 13th, 2020, 12:47 PM
I'd be Ok with the change, but think it both makes them a whole lot less valuable and less incentive to keep them in packs. That one extra defense (5 to 6 with three units) is a lot as keeps them fully effective longer. Plus with the change I would be more likely to spread them out going for lower defense units if defense does not matter keeping in a pack.

However I think maybe 6 defense is too powerful in the hands of a good player, and it is hard for newbies to play in packs, so the change would maybe be more in line with the set as a whole to keep units simple. Sorry I am thinking as I type but now that I think about it I actually like the change.

NecroBlade
October 13th, 2020, 06:50 PM
I'd be Ok with the change, but think it both makes them a whole lot less valuable and less incentive to keep them in packs. That one extra defense (5 to 6 with three units) is a lot as keeps them fully effective longer. Plus with the change I would be more likely to spread them out going for lower defense units if defense does not matter keeping in a pack.

This is definitely something to test and keep an eye on. IMO, the pack theme should shine, given the name Pride and the power Combined Heat. One way to swing that back in the other direction would be to give them 2A, but let Combined Heat give +2 for each adjacent. Then they're 2A solo (weaker), 4A paired (same), 6A fully packed up (stronger). This would also give us another non-3A unit.

lefton4ya
October 14th, 2020, 10:33 AM
... One way to swing that back in the other direction would be to give them 2A, but let Combined Heat give +2 for each adjacent. Then they're 2A solo (weaker), 4A paired (same), 6A fully packed up (stronger). This would also give us another non-3A unit.
Possibly. And keeping at 5 Defense makes them not too OP compared to 6 Defense max but 6 attack is really nice. However, I could see them with that being used as an assassin unit on a hero though, getting 3 attacks of 6 (18 attack dice) is one of the most powerful attack turn in all of Heroscape (barring a fully maxed Krug or Hulk, or some weird Glad/Blast or other extreme combinations (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35359)). We could up the point value on the pride then.

Now that I think about it I like the simple +1 attack with 5 defense. We could also add +1 move, but power would be more complicated adding another sentence on who they start next to.

Scytale
October 23rd, 2020, 04:23 PM
It would be nice to nail this down before going through the Editing Checklist again.

I prefer that Combined Heat gives them only an attack bonus (and Defense 5), but that's only a slight preference. I'm not really on board with Necro's suggestion of starting with Attack 2 and getting +2 attack for each adjacent; I think it makes the unit's swingy value all the more extreme. Starting with three attacks of 6 is crazy strong, and a single attack of 2 is utter crap. 5x3 -> 3x1 is much more palatable.