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All Your Pie
June 22nd, 2019, 02:28 AM
The Book of "Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer"

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/567009548041453579/567019625385033729/image0.jpg


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UTGAR
PYRIA
Elf
Unique Hero
Archmage
Relentless
Medium 5

LIFE 6
MOVE 5
RANGE 7
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 2

POINTS 120

TWIN FLAMETHROWERS SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 4.
Choose one or two straight lines from Pyria, each 3 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Pyriaís Twin Flamethrower Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.

Editing: complete (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2332469&postcount=126)

Playtesting: Test 1 (The Long Eared Bat) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2337631&postcount=133)
Test 2 (The Long Eared Bat) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2337634&postcount=134)
Test 3 (flameslayer93) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2337696&postcount=135)
Test 4 (kevindola) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2338180&postcount=136)
Test 5 (kevindola) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2338661&postcount=139)
Test 6 (flameslayer93) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2371132&postcount=140)
Test 7 (Ericth74) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2374346&postcount=141)
Test 8 (flameslayer93) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2382044&postcount=143)
Test 9 (capsocrates) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2393281&postcount=144)

The figure used for this unit is Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer from Arena of the Planeswalkers.


Character Bio: TBA

-Rulings and Clarifications-
TBA

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA

The Long eared bat
June 22nd, 2019, 05:01 AM
People have mentioned about a double special attack in another post which sounds cool. As well as this we could give her a summoning ability similar to Emirroon that allows her to summon moltarn figures. If we make the fire cats moltarn then this ability would work for them and the obsidian guards.

NecroBlade
June 22nd, 2019, 01:02 PM
I think the most common dual-Special Attacks that were tossed around were:

A short Fireline (possibly two).
An explosion (with or without Lob).

Another option could be immolating all adjacent figures. Or perhaps something that "burns" like Sujoah's Poison Sting? I still like the first two best.

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 02:19 PM
As much as I like the idea of her summoning Moltarns (with the cats being Moltarns) I think we need to watch how much movement utility we have in the set. Two SAs recalls figures like Q10, Mimring, and DW9k, and makes her cleaner and simpler. Honestly, we could still make the cats Moltarns so as to leave that option open for customs creators later on.

The Long eared bat
June 22nd, 2019, 07:52 PM
I just feel like the set doesn't have many other synergy potential maybe only Jace+illusions eldrazi+scions. The major mechanic of aotp was summoning. Q10, Mimring, and DW9K all have synergy, nothing in the future is likely to bond with Chandra so synergy with the firecats seems fair.

flameslayer93
June 22nd, 2019, 08:42 PM
Do we need much in the way of synergy though? And how much synergy is too much that will feel tacked on?

Krav and Carr don’t synergize.
MW’s and NGS don’t synergize.
The vikings don’t synergize specifically with each other.
Drake and Airbornes don’t synergize.

Of all the thematic groups, the only one that does is the Deathwalker and Zettians, and that’s just a range bonus. At this point, we’re probably going to see a highly synergetic pairing with Jace and the Illusions.

Provided Chandra is a human, she’ll get synergy with Ebon Armor. If she goes to Utgar, then Ornak can take turns with her.

Flash_19
June 22nd, 2019, 08:53 PM
Do we need much in the way of synergy though? And how much synergy is too much that will feel tacked on?

Krav and Carr donít synergize.
MWís and NGS donít synergize.
The vikings donít synergize specifically with each other.
Drake and Airbornes donít synergize.

Of all the thematic groups, the only one that does is the Deathwalker and Zettians, and thatís just a range bonus. At this point, weíre probably going to see a highly synergetic pairing with Jace and the Illusions.

Provided Chandra is a human, sheíll get synergy with Ebon Armor. If she goes to Utgar, then Ornak can take turns with her.

I think the idea to limit the number of units that synergize within the set is a good one. While yes, having synergy is cool, it also limits varieties of units played in an army. And with one of the goals of this project being a good starting place for new players, I think it's nice to not feel bound into certain armies (actually my biggest complaint about AotP in general).

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 08:54 PM
Yeah, that was actually the sort of stated goal - ROTV levels of synergy. Minor and/or generalized. Raelin and Finn/Thorgrim.

We're looking to pay homage to ROTV more than SOTM and AOTP.

All Your Pie
June 23rd, 2019, 12:11 AM
I personally don't object to light synergy, but if at all possible I would prefer to avoid creating designs that are completely dependent on each other. I want people to be able to take Chandra or the Firecats in whatever builds they choose, rather than having to take both of them to get decent value out of either. Jace and the Illusions are an exception to me just because of how much those figures resemble each other.

In general, I agree with the suggestions about making her an offense-focused toolkit. Another possibility would be to give her a ranged Double Attack, since I'd like to represent that power somewhere in the set and it seems fitting enough for a figure shooting fire out of both arms. That would be a pretty solid offensive punch on its own though, so we'd have to be careful to make her SA still worth using.

Pumpkin_King
June 23rd, 2019, 02:04 AM
The illusions also (will hopefully) work with other Archmages.

I really, really like the double fire line. 2 “rows” of 3-4 spaces each. That’s a very good twist on a classic ability. I could take or leave an explosion SA, even if I like the idea of two SAs.

Flash_19
June 23rd, 2019, 02:13 AM
I really, really like the double fire line. 2 ďrowsĒ of 3-4 spaces each. Thatís a very good twist on a classic ability. I could take or leave an explosion SA, even if I like the idea of two SAs.
Amen to this.

The Long eared bat
June 23rd, 2019, 04:17 AM
I guess she would be too powerful if she could summon and do 2 special attacks. All other summoners aren't offensive powerhouses. Having double fire line and explosion attacks mean you have 2 SAs that are revolved around figure clusters. Instead of an explosion attack how about a fire ball lob SA paired with a double fire line SA.

lefton4ya
June 24th, 2019, 12:34 PM
I like either the double Fire Line or double Explosions attack.
FIRE LINES SPECIAL ATTACK. Range Special. Attack 3.
Choose 3 spaces in a straight line [CN]. All figures on those spaces that are in line of sight are affected by Fire Lines Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice once for all affected figures. When using Fire Lines Special Attack you may attack one additional time but must choose a different line.

EXPLOSION SPECIAL ATTACKS. Range 4. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by the Explosion Special Attacks. [CN] only needs a clear sight shot at the chosen figure. Roll 3 attack dice once for all affected figures. [CN] can be affected by his own Explosion Special Attack. When using EXPLOSION SPECIAL ATTACKS you may attack one additional time.

I also like Searing Intensity or some kind of engagement strike that Lava Resistance has an exception to. Maybe:
FIRE STRIKE
After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to at [CN]. If you roll a 14 or higher, that figure receives 1 wound. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Fire Strike.

I could do with either summoning or movement bonding on Moltarns/Firecats. Another idea (also to help Obsidians as well as Firecats) is add extra defense or attack or even range to adjacent Motarns or figures with Lava Resistance:
FIRE INTENSITY
All friendly adjacent [Moltarns figures / figures with the Lava Resistance special power] may add one to their [range,] attack and defense.
The range is just an idea but understand if it is too much. We can decide of we want this power to affect just Moltarn or all Lava Resistant figures in the game (kinda makes her a "General" according to Heroscape Factions: Thematic Unit Groupings (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31722).

Well that is ate least 4 powers to think about.

Pumpkin_King
June 24th, 2019, 03:44 PM
I sort of like Fire Intensity but again, I think we need to really drill down on not having that sort of specific and limited synergy, however much we may want it. Let’s make the firecats Moltarn and leave that space open for Moltarn synergy later for personal customs or something run through VC.

I also think two explosions is too much. If we went with an explosion option it should just be the one.

Scytale
June 24th, 2019, 07:16 PM
I always sigh a bit when I see a "like an earlier power, but better!" design. Two firelines instead of one feel like that to me. Though two shorter firelines is significantly different, and interesting, especially if figures can only be affected once per turn. Double explosions excite me even less.

Synergy is far from necessary, but it isn't a bad thing. Far from it, if it's well done. If we went in the direction of Captain Stupendous's Dying Flame/Rekindled Flame (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2289839#post2289839) concept for the cats, we could have her do the rekindling. For example: change Rekindle to be recharge instead of dying whenever they would receive wounds from lava fields or a power that does not affect Lava Resistant figures, and give this unit a power that does not affect Lava Resistant figures.

Fire Strike is fine, but uninteresting on its own. It would need to be put on a design that supports it in some way. (Not necessarily other powers either, even preferably not, but an overall design such as a mobile defender or a glass cannon.)

I'm not a fan of giving her a cheerleading ability that affects all figures with the Lava Resistant special power. Especially with a glyph in the (VC) game that gives figures lava resistance.

The Long eared bat
June 25th, 2019, 06:49 AM
If she synergises with the fire cats via rekindling doesn't this make them too interdependent.

Scytale
June 25th, 2019, 11:47 AM
If she synergises with the fire cats via rekindling doesn't this make them too interdependent.
I'm not afraid of interdependencies. But no, it wouldn't have to, depending on the blaze mechanic. If they blaze out fast, then yes. But if they have a slower burnout, maybe remove a blaze token for +1 attack, then it's a softer synergy and the cats can function fine alone. Either way, this unit is fine alone.

All Your Pie
June 25th, 2019, 03:38 PM
For the dual fireline, I think range 4 attack 3 feels about right to me. Doesnít compete with Mimringís range or dice output but will probably have a bit of an easier time hitting more figures at once. I also agree with not letting her double up - she should choose two lines when she uses the attack and roll dice once, rather than just getting to use the SA twice.

Iím intrigued enough by the rekindling concept that I would be willing to see what it looks like. The idea of Chandra burning through enemies while igniting her firecats in the same line of flame sounds quite interesting, but Iím not immediately sure how to implement that coherently.

Scytale
June 25th, 2019, 03:47 PM
Iím intrigued enough by the rekindling concept that I would be willing to see what it looks like. The idea of Chandra burning through enemies while igniting her firecats in the same line of flame sounds quite interesting, but Iím not immediately sure how to implement that coherently.
Building around the current ideas, something like this for the cats:

BLAZE
At the start of the game place 3 Blaze markers on this Army Card. Before taking a turn with the Firecats, you may remove one Blaze marker to add 1 to their Move and Attack values.

REKINDLING FLAME
When a Firecat would take damage from lava fields or from a power that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, you may ignore all wounds and add a Blaze marker to this Army Card, to a maximum of 3 Blaze markers.

Then modify Chandras to something like:
BURNING HANDS SPECIAL ATTACK
Attack 3, Range Special
Choose 3 spaces in a straight line from Chandra. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Chandra's Burning Hands Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. After attacking with Burning Hands special attack, you may attack one additional time with Burning Hands special attack. Figures cannot be affected by Burning Hands Special Attack more than once per turn. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Burning Hands Special Attack.

All Your Pie
June 25th, 2019, 04:05 PM
Hmmm, thatís pretty compelling, especially because if we do go the Blaze mechanic for the firecats there wonít be any lava in the set for them to play with. Letting another figure light them up instead would allow that power to still be useful within the set itself, in addition to having applications in other builds and scenarios.

Iíll sit on it a bit but I think I do like it.

NecroBlade
June 25th, 2019, 10:44 PM
Building around the current ideas, something like this for the cats:

BLAZE
At the start of the game place 3 Blaze markers on this Army Card. Before taking a turn with the Firecats, you may remove one Blaze marker to add 1 to their Move and Attack values.

REKINDLING FLAME
When a Firecat would take damage from lava fields or from a power that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, you may ignore all wounds and add a Blaze marker to this Army Card, to a maximum of 3 Blaze markers.

Then modify Chandras to something like:
BURNING HANDS SPECIAL ATTACK
Attack 3, Range Special
Choose 3 spaces in a straight line from Chandra. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Chandra's Burning Hands Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. After attacking with Burning Hands special attack, you may attack one additional time with Burning Hands special attack. Figures cannot be affected by Burning Hands Special Attack more than once per turn. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Burning Hands Special Attack.

That's a pretty cool direction (see comments in Firecat thread about what we're using as markers). BHSA could also be significantly shorter:

Choose 3 spaces in a two straight lines from Chandra, each 3 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Chandra's Burning Hands Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. After attacking with Burning Hands special attack, you may attack one additional time with Burning Hands special attack. Figures cannot be affected by Burning Hands Special Attack more than once per turn. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Burning Hands Special Attack.

Fakeraistlin
June 26th, 2019, 12:52 AM
I personally don't object to light synergy, but if at all possible I would prefer to avoid creating designs that are completely dependent on each other. I want people to be able to take Chandra or the Firecats in whatever builds they choose, rather than having to take both of them to get decent value out of either. Jace and the Illusions are an exception to me just because of how much those figures resemble each other.

In general, I agree with the suggestions about making her an offense-focused toolkit. Another possibility would be to give her a ranged Double Attack, since I'd like to represent that power somewhere in the set and it seems fitting enough for a figure shooting fire out of both arms. That would be a pretty solid offensive punch on its own though, so we'd have to be careful to make her SA still worth using.


I agree with the above. Especially the ability to not have to take phoenixes and firecats etc.

I think we should avoid the summoning powers for units such as Chandra to differentiate from AoTP and make units such as Kurrock and Jace unique.
Though like AoTP this Chandra is a fire mage of some kind. Which is the ability to manipulate/control fire.

As far as I know, there isn't a HS spell casting unit which has more than two modes for special attacks, so I submit the following for consideration:

Attack:2
Defense:2
Move:7
Range:5

Fiery Attack 'Normal Attack'

-For Defense units less than 3, automatic skull plus what is rolled.
-All skulls count as an additional skull
-Lava resistant creatures make this only an attack of 1

At the beginning on her turn before Chandra moves and attacks she can choose the following three modes that will be active until her next turn:

Fire Shield:
- Enables Lava resistance
- +3 Defense
- Enables Fire Shield Counterstrike

Fire Blast:
Instead of moving and attacking Chandra can cast Fire Blast -
Two hex wide blast of fiery death
Range 4 Attack 5
-Lava resistant creatures are unaffected

Fire Control:
Instead of moving and attacking Chandra can attempt control of any one creature within LOS and with Lava Resistance or has a Fire Based special attack. This control is lost if Chandra's changes her attack mode. Success depends on size of creature. S (5 or higher), M ( 10 or higher), L+ (15)

Scytale
June 26th, 2019, 12:21 PM
Choose 3 spaces in a two straight lines from Chandra, each 3 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Chandra's Burning Hands Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. After attacking with Burning Hands special attack, you may attack one additional time with Burning Hands special attack. Figures cannot be affected by Burning Hands Special Attack more than once per turn. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Burning Hands Special Attack.
I was trying to avoid any confusion about hitting an adjacent double-spaced figured with both lines (hit once or twice?), but yeah, I agree this version is better.

As far as I know, there isn't a HS spell casting unit which has more than two modes for special attacks, so I submit the following for consideration:
There are some good ideas here, but far too many for one unit. Both the amount of text and the complexity levels are untenable. Additionally, "until her next turn" powers should be avoided in general. They do exist (Cloud of Darkness) and can be used, but they add a memory mechanic. Without a physical representation ('X' order marker, another marker, etc), these sorts of things should be used very sparingly.

Really, just a unit with two different special attacks does most of what you intend: a unit with variable powers. Just in a simpler, more 'Scapy way.

Jaur0n
June 26th, 2019, 08:38 PM
Fakeraistlin your post gave me an idea I'm just throwing out there. We could do something after movement and before attack that rolls the 20 sided die and the result determines what kind of attack she does (being careful to word it not to create a loop). If we do 3 results we'd have to keep them fairly straight forward to avoid a huge text wall. I wonder if two might be better.

Something good like

1-10 double attack with range
11-20 you may attack all adjacent figures


Or something where most results are good, but some results are really good

1-17 double ranged attack
18-20 may attack all figures within X clear line of sight spaces

Scytale
June 27th, 2019, 10:35 AM
@Fakeraistlin (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=48281) your post gave me an idea I'm just throwing out there. We could do something after movement and before attack that rolls the 20 sided die and the result determines what kind of attack she does (being careful to word it not to create a loop). If we do 3 results we'd have to keep them fairly straight forward to avoid a huge text wall. I wonder if two might be better.

Something good like

1-10 double attack with range
11-20 you may attack all adjacent figures


Or something where most results are good, but some results are really good

1-17 double ranged attack
18-20 may attack all figures within X clear line of sight spaces
That's fun, but you have to be careful with it, or the unit really suffers. Just play the Master of the Hunt to know how even a relatively small difference in the amount of range available is frustrating. As is, this first design is very contrary to itself. To ensure an attack, you will always have to play for the 11+, so you'll always force engagement. If you get it, 1-10 may just be less attacks. The range would only be useful on the turns you cannot get into engagement, in which case it's just a hope that you can attack.

Fakeraistlin
June 27th, 2019, 12:20 PM
Heres another special for consideration.
Still reading custom guidelines (exactly what i was looking for btw) by scytale...

Fire Ring Burst

Instead of moving and attacking chandra can cast this special ability

On a roll of 1 chandra takes 1 damage.
On a roll of 2-12 All adjacent unit rolls seperately one die of dmg
On a roll of 13 to 19 do 1 damage to each adjacent unit.
On a roll of 20 do 2 damage to anything within range 2

lefton4ya
June 27th, 2019, 01:54 PM
...
BURNING HANDS SPECIAL ATTACK
Attack 3, Range Special
Choose two straight lines from Chandra, each 3 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Chandra's Burning Hands Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Burning Hands Special Attack.
I like the above revised version (except maybe the name ;)).

I have another idea, especially to go along with the discussion on Blazing Firecats and making the Pyromancer a kind of cheerleader for Lava Resistant Figures.
[LAVA CAST] / [OBSIDIAN FIELD]:
All land spaces adjacent to [CN,P] are considered lava field spaces [for special powers and end of the round rolls].

Note: text in brackets is optional for clarity. Helps any Blazing Firecats Synergy that is boosted by lava field, causes end of the round wounds to opponents next to [CN,P], plus assist all LR figures. I am trying to figure out exact wording but the below would be even better but might be overkill as I am really just trying to help Obsidian Guards specifically (not sure if Avernus from C3V will help as I'm not in the Sancutm):
LAVA CAST
Friendly Lava Resistant figures on land tiles and are adjacent to [CN,P] are considered on Lava spaces for special powers. All other figures adjacent to [CN,P] are considered on Lava Filed spaces for special powers and end of the round rolls.

Scytale
June 27th, 2019, 04:35 PM
We can push the synergy angle, but I generally agree with the sentiments of others to avoid a tight synergy that all but requires the two units to be played together. The more synergies we put on Chandra, the more it becomes that. I like having just what was suggested because it doesn't strongly link the two, but does have some bonuses when playing them together.

C3V recently did a unit that changes terrain type, and it caused no end of trouble to us Editors. I really, really want to avoid doing that again.

All Your Pie
June 27th, 2019, 05:36 PM
I prefer not having her create lava terrain simply because the rules for lava field probably wonít be specifically included in this Master Set. Plus, it just doesnít quite fit the figure for me. I donít see her radiating heat in the same way the GIE radiates cold, so the implementation doesnít hit me as smoothly as having her use fire for pure offense.

Fakeraistlin
June 28th, 2019, 10:22 PM
@Fakeraistlin (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=48281) your post gave me an idea I'm just throwing out there. We could do something after movement and before attack that rolls the 20 sided die and the result determines what kind of attack she does (being careful to word it not to create a loop). If we do 3 results we'd have to keep them fairly straight forward to avoid a huge text wall. I wonder if two might be better.

Something good like

1-10 double attack with range
11-20 you may attack all adjacent figures


Or something where most results are good, but some results are really good

1-17 double ranged attack
18-20 may attack all figures within X clear line of sight spaces
That's fun, but you have to be careful with it, or the unit really suffers. Just play the Master of the Hunt to know how even a relatively small difference in the amount of range available is frustrating. As is, this first design is very contrary to itself. To ensure an attack, you will always have to play for the 11+, so you'll always force engagement. If you get it, 1-10 may just be less attacks. The range would only be useful on the turns you cannot get into engagement, in which case it's just a hope that you can attack.

Thanks Jaur0n, I'm a fan of random amount of a power (e.g. Anubian Wolves), not different power gets activated - I like the ability to select what strategy to implement, and not gamble. Though ....

Though it is interesting, maybe we can give Chandra some kind of madness where she selects an attack mode that doesn't make any strategic sense at the moment and to compensate the power or powers make up for it...Occasionally

NecroBlade
June 30th, 2019, 12:17 PM
Choose two straight lines from Chandra, each 3 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Chandra's Burning Hands Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Burning Hands Special Attack.
I was trying to avoid any confusion about hitting an adjacent double-spaced figured with both lines (hit once or twice?), but yeah, I agree this version is better.
The figure is either "on those spaces" or it's not. It can't be "on those spaces" twice, so there shouldn't be any confusion (not that even clearer things haven't ever gotten confused). But it's just like an Ogre Pulverizer attacking a Samurai: excess shields still only count for one unblockable hit each because they "count as one unblockable hit" which satisfies Lumbering Bully and Counter Strike simultaneously.

Really, just a unit with two different special attacks does most of what you intend: a unit with variable powers. Just in a simpler, more 'Scapy way.
I think that's what attracted everyone to the idea originally on the Discord channel.

Pumpkin_King
June 30th, 2019, 12:31 PM
Really, just a unit with two different special attacks does most of what you intend: a unit with variable powers. Just in a simpler, more 'Scapy way.
I think that's what attracted everyone to the idea originally on the Discord channel.

^ This. Letís make her special attacks not effect LR figures, and leave moltarn/LR synergy to other cards/custom creators.

The Long eared bat
July 2nd, 2019, 01:16 PM
Really, just a unit with two different special attacks does most of what you intend: a unit with variable powers. Just in a simpler, more 'Scapy way.
I think that's what attracted everyone to the idea originally on the Discord channel.

^ This. Letís make her special attacks not effect LR figures, and leave moltarn/LR synergy to other cards/custom creators.

So most people seem to like the double fire line special what about the other special attack? Fire ball lob?

Scytale
July 2nd, 2019, 01:20 PM
I'm not sold on having two special attacks. It's fine, but I don't see it necessarily better than other directions we've discussed. And as far as special attacks go, a double fireline is already complex enough; we don't need something else with it.

All Your Pie
July 2nd, 2019, 03:15 PM
I'm not sold on having two special attacks. It's fine, but I don't see it necessarily better than other directions we've discussed. And as far as special attacks go, a double fireline is already complex enough; we don't need something else with it.

I tend to agree here. We donít need to shy away from a one-power card here, and we can still accomplish the goal of giving her multiple attack modes by giving her a long-range normal attack.

I could still be sold on a second special attack, but nothing proposed so far seems quite as novel or useful as the fireline.

If the firelines are all she has going on, we can probably play with attack and range values of up to 4 depending on how we want to tweak it.

The Long eared bat
July 4th, 2019, 10:02 AM
If we are just going for the double fire line special attack, how does this feel:
Life: 6
Move:5
Range: 6/7
Attack:4
Defence:3

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 02:43 AM
I feel like we have a fairly simple direction here. How does everyone feel about putting something like this up in the OP?

(Figure Name)
Utgar

(We haven't discussed species much. I kind of lean giving her a direction of being a disgraced or exiled Elf Archmage from Feylund.)
Unique Hero
Archmage
Wild (I'm ehhh on this, but I don't care for the Death Knight Bonding you get from Relentless)
Medium 5

Life: 5/6
Move: 5
Range: 6/7
Attack: 3/4
Defense: 2/3
(Since we're balancing two attack modes, her normal attack should be worthwhile as well. 4 attack at 7 range is quite strong, perhaps a bit much, and 6 life 3 defense is a bit too much survivability for this type of figure I feel. I'd be fine with 5 life 3 def or 6 life 2 def though..)
Points: ???

Power 1
Twin Flamethrower Special Attack
Range 3/4 Attack 3/4
Choose two straight lines from (figure name), each 3/4 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by (figure name's) Twin Flamethrower Special Attack. Roll 3/4 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. (Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Twin Flamethrower Special Attack.)

(Again, fairly simple choices here that we can tweak as we go. I think I like Range 3 Attack 4 best for this special, 4/4 feels like a bit much. I put the not affecting lava resistant thing in brackets just because if we don't go for Heat Absorption on the Firecats then I don't think we need that line, but that has more to do with another design than it does this one.)

Scytale
July 5th, 2019, 02:46 PM
I have no disagreement with Utgar. The coloration and fire fits him well.

I'm not opposed to Elf Archmage. Wild seems a good fit for the playstyle so far, but we do have to consider Death Knights. I don't thing she'll be too good for them, though, even with a multi-target special attack. (Actually, it would be a good thing for them.)

I agree 7 Range/4 Attack is too good. 7/3 is good enough. 6 Life/3 Defense is also too good.

4 Range on Twin Flamethrower is too much. 4 Attack probably is too; but I'm not certain. I agree the Lava Resistant thing should only be added if it works with the cats.

I very much like keeping this to a single-power unit.

Jaur0n
July 5th, 2019, 05:36 PM
I suppose testing will sort this out but:

3 attack on normal feels underwhelming if this is an offensive unit, especially if we tone down the aoe to 2 lines of 3. I think this unit wants to be fairly close to the fighting so they can pick the best time to run in and burn down a bunch of units and it has to walk. Longer range with weaker attack seems at odds with it's purpose. For that reason I think 4 attack seems right.


6/3 feels pretty strong, Mimring is a 5/3 and is obviously similar.


The special power seems fine although I don't like cats gaining back markers, especially if the only way to do it in set is to take this character with them.

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 05:46 PM
I personally prefer 3 attack at 7 range with a 4 attack special. A long-range attack of 3 feels like it gives her options but still cleanly defines that she can do the most damage up close with her SA. At 4 attack at that range, it starts to feel like she's best played by hanging back and not going for the special at all until the opponent rushes her, at which point she doesn't really get any weaker and could be frustrating to play against. Alternatively we could go 4 attack at a shorter range, but just giving her two different close-range attacks doesn't offer much of a choice in how to play.

For the SA, in comparison with Fireline it has less range and thus puts her in more danger but has probably better multi-target attack potential. Even with 4 dice I don't think she outclasses Mimring just because being able to use that 8 range is really good, and Mimring has a lot more mobility. Only reason I'd see to make the SA use 3 dice would be to fit her into a lower price bracket, something closer to 100 rather than floating around 130 or up.

Fakeraistlin
July 5th, 2019, 09:57 PM
I feel like we have a fairly simple direction here. How does everyone feel about putting something like this up in the OP?

(Figure Name)
Utgar

(We haven't discussed species much. I kind of lean giving her a direction of being a disgraced or exiled Elf Archmage from Feylund.)
Unique Hero
Archmage/ Wizard (too much synergy with Elf Wizards?)
Wild (I'm ehhh on this, but I don't care for the Death Knight Bonding you get from Relentless)
Medium 5

Life: 5/6
Move: 5
Range: 6/7
Attack: 3/4
Defense: 2/3
(Since we're balancing two attack modes, her normal attack should be worthwhile as well. 4 attack at 7 range is quite strong, perhaps a bit much, and 6 life 3 defense is a bit too much survivability for this type of figure I feel. I'd be fine with 5 life 3 def or 6 life 2 def though..)
Points: ???

Power 1
Twin Flamethrower Special Attack
Range 3/4 Attack 3/4
Choose two straight lines from (figure name), each 3/4 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by (figure name's) Twin Flamethrower Special Attack. Roll 3/4 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. (Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Twin Flamethrower Special Attack.)

(Again, fairly simple choices here that we can tweak as we go. I think I like Range 3 Attack 4 best for this special, 4/4 feels like a bit much. I put the not affecting lava resistant thing in brackets just because if we don't go for Heat Absorption on the Firecats then I don't think we need that line, but that has more to do with another design than it does this one.)

My vote is for Relentless Elven Archmage
Utgar or Vakrill
Life 4
Defense 2
No lava resistance

Normal Attack 3 Range 7
Special attack range 4 attack 4

Scytale
July 6th, 2019, 03:18 AM
We definitely don't need to make her special as good as Fire Line. Take note that it's much more controllable--it will be far easier to hit numerous targets than with Fire Line. That's why I'm against Range 4 and Attack 4. Attack 4 alone has some serious potential to wreck squads. Range 4 gives her the option of hanging back a bit, plus makes it easier to hit more targets. Let's keep ourselves in check here.

Fakeraistlin
July 6th, 2019, 09:50 AM
We definitely don't need to make her special as good as Fire Line. Take note that it's much more controllable--it will be far easier to hit numerous targets than with Fire Line. That's why I'm against Range 4 and Attack 4. Attack 4 alone has some serious potential to wreck squads. Range 4 gives her the option of hanging back a bit, plus makes it easier to hit more targets. Let's keep ourselves in check here.

Maybe make special 3 attack and 3 range with
choice to either increase attack or range by 1.

Scytale
July 6th, 2019, 03:10 PM
We definitely don't need to make her special as good as Fire Line. Take note that it's much more controllable--it will be far easier to hit numerous targets than with Fire Line. That's why I'm against Range 4 and Attack 4. Attack 4 alone has some serious potential to wreck squads. Range 4 gives her the option of hanging back a bit, plus makes it easier to hit more targets. Let's keep ourselves in check here.

Maybe make special 3 attack and 3 range with
choice to either increase attack or range by 1.
The attack is already wordy enough as it is. Let's pick Range 4 or Attack 4 and stick with it.

Fakeraistlin
July 6th, 2019, 03:14 PM
We definitely don't need to make her special as good as Fire Line. Take note that it's much more controllable--it will be far easier to hit numerous targets than with Fire Line. That's why I'm against Range 4 and Attack 4. Attack 4 alone has some serious potential to wreck squads. Range 4 gives her the option of hanging back a bit, plus makes it easier to hit more targets. Let's keep ourselves in check here.

Maybe make special 3 attack and 3 range with
choice to either increase attack or range by 1.
The attack is already wordy enough as it is. Let's pick Range 4 or Attack 4 and stick with it.

Then Attack 4 Range 3 is my vote :) ... and adjust as per playtest.

lefton4ya
July 8th, 2019, 11:00 AM
Basically with good placement I see her Special attack getting:
Range 3 attack 4 = ~2 attacks of 4
Range 4 attack 3 = ~3 attack of 3
Range 4 attack 4 = ~3 attack of 4

I'd prefer more range as it makes opponent's think about placement more and therefor makes both the player and oppnent have to learn to be more strategic, which is a + in my book. I do agree that 4 Range and 4 attack is too OP, as most times you could roll 8 or 12 dice, possibly up to 24 dice!

I also do like LAVA RESISTANCE and OBSIDIAN FIELD (to help Blazing Firecats power up with Heat Absorption)
All land spaces adjacent to [CN,P] are considered lava field spaces [for special powers and end of the round rolls].

*[Brackets] optional for clarity.

Utgar seems appropriate, not sure on left box stats.

Captain Stupendous
July 8th, 2019, 12:16 PM
I feel like we have a fairly simple direction here. How does everyone feel about putting something like this up in the OP?

(Figure Name)
Utgar

(We haven't discussed species much. I kind of lean giving her a direction of being a disgraced or exiled Elf Archmage from Feylund.)
Unique Hero
Archmage
Wild (I'm ehhh on this, but I don't care for the Death Knight Bonding you get from Relentless)
Medium 5

One other thing to consider when discussing her class is that some people are thinking about giving the Illusions synergy with all archmages, so that they would work with both the Jace Illusionist figure (if he is also made an archmage) while also providing some synergy with Sonlen as well. I'm not necessarily opposed to allowing Chandra to synergize with the Illusions as well; in fact I think it could allow for greater diversity in army building within the master set to give the Illusions two characters for them to synergize with in the master set. Its just something to keep in mind if that is the direction you do decide to go.

flameslayer93
July 8th, 2019, 01:27 PM
I feel like we have a fairly simple direction here. How does everyone feel about putting something like this up in the OP?

(Figure Name)
Utgar

(We haven't discussed species much. I kind of lean giving her a direction of being a disgraced or exiled Elf Archmage from Feylund.)
Unique Hero
Archmage
Wild (I'm ehhh on this, but I don't care for the Death Knight Bonding you get from Relentless)
Medium 5

One other thing to consider when discussing her class is that some people are thinking about giving the Illusions synergy with all archmages, so that they would work with both the Jace Illusionist figure (if he is also made an archmage) while also providing some synergy with Sonlen as well. I'm not necessarily opposed to allowing Chandra to synergize with the Illusions as well; in fact I think it could allow for greater diversity in army building within the master set to give the Illusions two characters for them to synergize with in the master set. Its just something to keep in mind if that is the direction you do decide to go.

On the discord before the project began, there was also some push to make Nissa an Archmage (since we canít make her a Wizard lol).

Scytale
July 8th, 2019, 02:40 PM
I also do like LAVA RESISTANCE and OBSIDIAN FIELD (to help Blazing Firecats power up with Heat Absorption)
[quote]All land spaces adjacent to [CN,P] are considered lava field spaces [for special powers and end of the round rolls].
Obsidian Field is never going to work rules-wise.

All Your Pie
July 16th, 2019, 01:33 AM
I've updated the OP with what I believe to be a good starting point for us to move forward and base discussion around--namely, the single-power direction with an SA at range 3 and attack 4. This isn't set in stone, but I think it's a clean and reasonable approximation of where we are.

Things still to discuss are species and personality. Elf doesn't really have many synergy implications if we're going archmage, but it is a committed thematic choice and I want to be sure that the people in this pod are behind it before I write that in. For personality, I'm mainly concerned with whether we make her Relentless or not. If this figure ends up with Death Knight bonding, I feel like that's a compelling reason not to give her SA 4 attack.

The SA is probably the biggest thing we'll tweak here, and I could definitely see us tuning it down to 3 dice depending on what point bracket we want to land in. My main concern at the moment is that with 3 dice the SA feels about as strong as Shotgun SA but at much closer range, making it a little hard to justify using. Otherwise, survivability is a dial we can tweak, though I'd be much more inclined to tweak it down than up. That could still mean going up to 3D if we reduce life at the same time.

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 04:06 AM
I am not against Elf or Relentless, however if we make her relentless I would rather lower survivability than attack of 4 in the special. Making her relentless gives a reason to use Khosumet which I like due to her being ranged.

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 08:57 AM
Her Aotp card says medium 4 but I think medium 5.

lefton4ya
July 16th, 2019, 10:39 AM
I'd prefer the SA be Range 4 attack 3, as I think 4 attack has the possibility of you throwing more dice than any other figure in the game (which seams too OP) and in addition I like the strategy better of a range of 4, similar to Moltenclaw:
https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/8/6/5/moltenclaw_range.jpg (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/showimage.php?i=7358&original=1)

Life 6 defense 2 is interesting - fragile glass but matches theme of she burns bright and hot. Not against it as it is also something different so worth a try. I also still prefer adding Lava Resistance to the figure but understand not as there is no Lava in the set.

Scytale
July 16th, 2019, 10:47 AM
I'm not a fan of Relentless. It doesn't make the unit's playstyle. Unless we specifically want Death Knight bonding, which I'm not sold on either. Something like Bold would be a better fit, or maybe Wild.

Though the 4/3 or 3/4 special attack decision plays into this. At Range 4 Attack 3 I suspect she'd be more Wild, taking longer-range shots and picking targets (though still brash). At Range 3 Attack 4 she will be highly incentivized to run in for that one big attack, so Bold would fit well.

"Because there is no lava in the set" should not be a reason to avoid using Lava Resistance. Brunak didn't come with lava either. More to the point, lava exists, so we should honor that. However, I am against adding Lava Resistance. Just because she can control fire doesn't make her immune to absurdly hot lava.

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 12:07 PM
With range 4 attack 3 she is better off sitting back and using a normall attack due to fragile defensive stats. With range 3 attack 4 more of an incentive to run in and use a more powerful offensive attack.

lefton4ya
July 16th, 2019, 12:28 PM
I'm cool with testing the SA at 3 range 4 attack - I think against other AotP units this is fine, just also want to test how OP it is against squadscape armies such as 4th/Stingers/Knights/Orcs (which actually now that I think about it we could use some more heroes that are great against squadscape).

Also yeah I picture her as kinda like the Dark Phoenix version of Jean Gray (from comics and cartoons, not movies :shudder: or a Fire Bender (aka Azula) from Avatar. So cool to not have Lava Resistance power, but how about adding Flying then,?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/x-men/images/f/f4/X-men_L16.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/354?cb=20110914155859https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111292893/5309732-9374335997-VTS_0.jpg

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 12:34 PM
I would like flying.

Fakeraistlin
July 16th, 2019, 02:19 PM
I am not against Elf or Relentless, however if we make her relentless I would rather lower survivability than attack of 4 in the special. Making her relentless gives a reason to use Khosumet which I like due to her being ranged.

My vote is for lower survivability to compensate for her abilities, i.e. the mage elves seem physically weaker, maybe lower def as well?

All Your Pie
July 18th, 2019, 06:26 PM
I'm a little leery to put flying on the card when this set already has a fair few units who are definitely going to have it. Avacyn, Ob Nixilis, the Phoenixes, and the Geists are all guaranteed fliers. Sorin might be as well if we end up keeping him a Vampire, and flying is much more a vampire power than a mage power in Heroscape.

Any thoughts on the name? I'm not especially good at coming up with elf names, magician names, or elf magician names.

Scytale
July 18th, 2019, 06:39 PM
Any thoughts on the name? I'm not especially good at coming up with elf names, magician names, or elf magician names.
Allscyfak Jaurleftbat

Jaur0n
July 18th, 2019, 07:19 PM
Any thoughts on the name? I'm not especially good at coming up with elf names, magician names, or elf magician names.
Allscyfak Jaurleftbat


I see what you did there. :P

Jaur0n
July 18th, 2019, 07:20 PM
Wanted to add, I'm against flying as well mostly because this unit is already a lot like a certain dragon.

Fakeraistlin
July 18th, 2019, 10:53 PM
I'm a little leery to put flying on the card when this set already has a fair few units who are definitely going to have it. Avacyn, Ob Nixilis, the Phoenixes, and the Geists are all guaranteed fliers. Sorin might be as well if we end up keeping him a Vampire, and flying is much more a vampire power than a mage power in Heroscape.

Any thoughts on the name? I'm not especially good at coming up with elf names, magician names, or elf magician names.

Syndra Bryric
Arcaena Shacan
Pyria the Fallen
Azariah Shandalar

The Long eared bat
July 19th, 2019, 03:52 PM
Wanted to add, I'm against flying as well mostly because this unit is already a lot like a certain dragon. Good point.

The Long eared bat
July 19th, 2019, 03:53 PM
Fakeraistlin I like Pyria. It makes pyro feminine.

Fakeraistlin
July 20th, 2019, 12:15 AM
Fakeraistlin I like Pyria. It makes pyro feminine.

Thanks T.L.E.B.

Pumpkin_King
August 20th, 2019, 03:43 PM
Gonna bump this. Where are we at?


I like the double-fireline, always been a fan. I think we should consider giving her a simple Exposion SA to go with it. That's always been my preferred design direction, two different and versatile SAs like Q10.

Scytale
August 20th, 2019, 03:50 PM
I like the double-fireline, always been a fan. I think we should consider giving her a simple Exposion SA to go with it. That's always been my preferred design direction, two different and versatile SAs like Q10.
I'm against adding another attack. A double fireline is plenty interesting, and keeps the unit focused.

Pumpkin_King
August 20th, 2019, 03:57 PM
A single-SA power unit could work. Do you like that direction, or could you see another power?

I'm against flying, or lava resistant.

Scytale
August 20th, 2019, 04:00 PM
A single-SA power unit could work. Do you like that direction, or could you see another power?
A second power would be exactly that: a second power for the sake of having a second power. It's a bell/whistle that isn't needed.

Pumpkin_King
August 20th, 2019, 04:11 PM
I can see that. After all, Deathwalker only had one meaningful power. Syvvaris, Mimring.

If we’re goung to make her an archmage that gives her some incidental synergy with our plans for the Illusions (which is intentional for them, incidental synergy).

Astroking112
August 20th, 2019, 04:41 PM
There aren't any concrete plans for the illusions to use any Archmage figure yet, so I'd be hesitant to encourage avoiding that route this early if that's the intended theme. If it proves to be problematic down the road and the Illusions pods really wants to include Sonlen, then I think that we could address it then.

I agree with the sentiment that a second power is unnecessary. A double fireline is already unique enough, and adding more onto it runs the risk of overdesigning her.

Pumpkin_King
August 20th, 2019, 06:35 PM
I think keeping her as an archmage is fine. IT leaves options open for the future.

All Your Pie
August 21st, 2019, 06:47 PM
Since the only synergy implications would be from this set, Archmage is fine for us to deliberate on later. I personally wouldn't consider any of these units 100% done until the whole set is finalized anyway. If archmage becomes synergistic then this unit will either undergo some additional testing to accommodate that or will have her class changed to something unsynergistic, which is how we'd be testing her right now anyway.

Speaking of, I feel like this design is close to being ready to enter that stage. I'm happy to go forward with Pyria for the name. We can adjust it later if we feel the need to make it more in line with official 'scape elven names or what have you. Wild seems like a decent fit for personality, although Scytale suggested Bold--I don't feel it's quite right, but how about Dauntless? It's somewhat underused but captures a similar angle.

Most importantly, what point total do we think we should start out at? I'm thinking something in the 130-140 range.

Scytale
August 21st, 2019, 06:55 PM
Wild is probably the best.

130+ seems high. Good potential for multi-target, but only at great risk, and it's a 2-Defense unit.

Pumpkin_King
August 21st, 2019, 09:49 PM
I like the double-fireline, always been a fan. I think we should consider giving her a simple Exposion SA to go with it. That's always been my preferred design direction, two different and versatile SAs like Q10.
After some time to think about this, I think we should keep a two-SAs model on the backburner. The versatility of Q10 was one of his biggest selling points.

flameslayer93
August 22nd, 2019, 03:30 PM
Played a quick HoB game with Pyria and Ozuul (on rivaling teams). The battlefield was an AotP rectangle, so fairly small.

Twin Fireline Pyria is solid, and works well in the AotV setting of smallish boards and largely random armies. :up:

The Long eared bat
August 29th, 2019, 12:16 PM
Should we try her at 120?

flameslayer93
August 29th, 2019, 12:26 PM
Should we try her at 120?

120 sounds like a reasonable guess. My game with her was at 130, and she wasnít notably powerful.

Scytale
August 29th, 2019, 01:51 PM
120 feels high; I struggle to class her with the 120pt powerhouses. But the special at Attack 4 is pretty darn good.

flameslayer93
August 29th, 2019, 02:05 PM
120 feels high; I struggle to class her with the 120pt powerhouses. But the special at Attack 4 is pretty darn good.

Not all 120 point units need to be powerhouses. :p

Besides, a chance 3 skull fireblast is exceedingly deadly here, because she has a strong chance of hitting at least 2 minis with it.

Pumpkin_King
August 29th, 2019, 03:52 PM
We can always dial down, or give her a slight buff.

Pumpkin_King
September 29th, 2019, 05:02 AM
Is this one kind of in a good place?

The Long eared bat
September 29th, 2019, 01:56 PM
I don't think we can make the double fire line special attack any simpler. I happy with this one.

flameslayer93
September 29th, 2019, 03:25 PM
I don't think we can make the double fire line special attack any simpler. I happy with this one.

Then all thatís left is figuring out the rest of her left box stats. Relentless seemed to fit her when I played a game with her. Bold could also work, I think.

All Your Pie
September 30th, 2019, 01:24 AM
I like Bold or Dauntless for her personality.

Where did we want to start with points? Iím a little hesitant to further crowd the 120 price point, but weíre just estimating at this point so Iím not too worried about remaining there.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 02:00 AM
Like everything, favor Relentless or Wild for personality.

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 03:40 AM
I prefer relentless, wild or bold.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 04:47 AM
Remember that relentless will bond her with the death knights. I don’t know if that’s intended here - doesn’t seem like it.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 09:54 AM
Remember that relentless will bond her with the death knights. I donít know if thatís intended here - doesnít seem like it.

Fallen elf into dark powers makes sense thematically,
maybe too powerful/expensive with the added potential synergy... wild better choice

would like the relentless. though

flameslayer93
September 30th, 2019, 10:10 AM
Remember that relentless will bond her with the death knights. I donít know if thatís intended here - doesnít seem like it.

Fallen elf into dark powers makes sense thematically,
maybe too powerful/expensive with the added potential synergy... wild better choice

would like the relentless. though

I wouldnít worry about the theme of her getting Death Knight bonding here, look at Venoc Warlord. ;)

Just be sure to test her with the Death Knights and make sure its not too much. Relentless is a great fit here.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 10:19 AM
Remember that relentless will bond her with the death knights. I don’t know if that’s intended here - doesn’t seem like it.

Fallen elf into dark powers makes sense thematically,
maybe too powerful/expensive with the added potential synergy... wild better choice

would like the relentless. though

I wouldn’t worry about the theme of her getting Death Knight bonding here, look at Venoc Warlord. ;)

Just be sure to test her with the Death Knights and make sure its not too much. Relentless is a great fit here.


Would most definitely test it with those guys ;)

Scytale
September 30th, 2019, 11:38 AM
I would have to play with her to be sure, but I'd be surprised if she played optimally as Relentless. Her ability is more situational than something like Ice Shards, and her defense is lacking. She seems more like she'd be played best as a ranged unit that rushes in when the time is right. That's not Relentless. Bold is good, and Wild is decent.

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 12:22 PM
I guess bold best suits the theme.

flameslayer93
September 30th, 2019, 12:57 PM
I would have to play with her to be sure, but I'd be surprised if she played optimally as Relentless. Her ability is more situational than something like Ice Shards, and her defense is lacking. She seems more like she'd be played best as a ranged unit that rushes in when the time is right. That's not Relentless. Bold is good, and Wild is decent.

A single attack of 3 (even at range 7) was hardly worth the OM when I played her. Rushing the frontlines, being ready to burn friend and foe on a lucky flamethrower? Thatís when sheíll shine. Once you do one good turn, you may as well keep the OMs coming too, very sharklike.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 01:17 PM
I would have to play with her to be sure, but I'd be surprised if she played optimally as Relentless. Her ability is more situational than something like Ice Shards, and her defense is lacking. She seems more like she'd be played best as a ranged unit that rushes in when the time is right. That's not Relentless. Bold is good, and Wild is decent.

A single attack of 3 (even at range 7) was hardly worth the OM when I played her. Rushing the frontlines, being ready to burn friend and foe on a lucky flamethrower? Thatís when sheíll shine. Once you do one good turn, you may as well keep the OMs coming too, very sharklike.

Thats the way i would play her as well ...until she was used up or blasted.

Scytale
September 30th, 2019, 01:41 PM
A single attack of 3 (even at range 7) was hardly worth the OM when I played her. Rushing the frontlines, being ready to burn friend and foe on a lucky flamethrower? Thatís when sheíll shine. Once you do one good turn, you may as well keep the OMs coming too, very sharklike.
A single attack of 3 at range 7 is usually 4, so not bad, but yeah, not great. I can see the sharkiness thanks to her weak defense; you want to get as much out of her as possible while she's alive. So I can see the Relentless argument, but I am against bonding with Death Knights. Even though Death Knights are weak, the double fire line is a lot of offense to be adding to a squad turn. I'm starting to like Wild more and more.

All Your Pie
September 30th, 2019, 02:32 PM
I like Wild or Bold. Bold has a slightly more positive connotation, which is a bit of a mismatch for an Utgar unit, but I kind of like that tension. Iím fine with either of those two, though.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 11:40 PM
I think Wild has a good connection to fire, as well.

Fakeraistlin
October 1st, 2019, 12:53 AM
I like Wild or Bold. Bold has a slightly more positive connotation, which is a bit of a mismatch for an Utgar unit, but I kind of like that tension. Iím fine with either of those two, though.

Is Utgar a must in this case? If not? Totally wild or bold persona fits. I see if its Utgar, the fallen elf with persona Relentless and other similiar personality would match her proposed optimized play style.

flameslayer93
October 1st, 2019, 01:22 AM
Wild still works well for Utgar.

See: Marro Squads, Orc Squads

Fakeraistlin
October 1st, 2019, 01:31 AM
Wild still works well for Utgar.

See: Marro Squads, Orc Squads

Maybe playtesting might show we need to proper her up again. with Relentless. Wild it is.

NecroBlade
October 1st, 2019, 10:12 PM
FWIW, the poor Knights of Blackgaard (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=50573) could really use a halfway decent Relentless Ranged figure.

flameslayer93
October 1st, 2019, 10:30 PM
FWIW, the poor Knights of Blackgaard (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=50573) could really use a halfway decent Relentless Ranged figure.

They do. Theyre just called Incendiborgs. ;)

lefton4ya
October 2nd, 2019, 02:40 PM
Prefer relentless but Wild OK.

Jaur0n
October 2nd, 2019, 05:27 PM
Prefer relentless but Wild OK.


Same

All Your Pie
October 2nd, 2019, 05:36 PM
Seems like Relentless is actually a little more preferred among Pod members. As long as we test the Death Knight bonding, that isn't a problem for me. We can consider alternate personalities if that proves the only valid build for her, which might not happen with how mediocre the death knights are.

Fakeraistlin
October 2nd, 2019, 07:15 PM
Seems like Relentless is actually a little more preferred among Pod members. As long as we test the Death Knight bonding, that isn't a problem for me. We can consider alternate personalities if that proves the only valid build for her, which might not happen with how mediocre the death knights are.

Test with relentless then fallback to Wild if over powered? Sounds good.

Scytale
October 2nd, 2019, 07:18 PM
Works for me.

The Long eared bat
October 3rd, 2019, 03:48 AM
I like relentless to. Should we vote now for editing.

All Your Pie
October 3rd, 2019, 04:23 AM
Yup.

Editing, yadda yadda.

:up: from me.

The Long eared bat
October 3rd, 2019, 04:31 AM
:up: for me.

Scytale
October 3rd, 2019, 12:10 PM
Looking over the whole design, I'm quite happy with where we ended up. The Lava Resistant line still needs to be removed from the power.

Otherwise, :up:.

Fakeraistlin
October 3rd, 2019, 01:13 PM
:up: for edit stage

All Your Pie
October 3rd, 2019, 02:02 PM
Aaaand editing it is. (4-0).

lefton4ya
October 3rd, 2019, 06:48 PM
When did we get rid of Lava Resistance exemption from the special attack? Otherwise OK to editing review.

All Your Pie
October 3rd, 2019, 06:50 PM
When did we get rid of Lava Resistance from the special attack?
Only reason we considered adding it was if the Ukushisa had Heat Absorption. Without that external reason, it makes more sense to stick to precedent--Fire Line, Burning Breath, and Flamethrower all affect lava resistant figures.

Scytale
October 3rd, 2019, 06:51 PM
When did we get rid of Lava Resistance exemption from the special attack? Otherwise OK to editing review.
We had it there as an option if we decided to allow the firecats to recharge from powers that did not affect those with lava resistance. Without that synergy, it's just extra noise here, and goes against Fire Line, Burning Breath, and, well, pretty much any fire-based attack.


:ninja:ed

lefton4ya
October 3rd, 2019, 07:05 PM
Must have missed that - fine with me.

Scytale
October 16th, 2019, 07:56 PM
Before I run the Checklist, let's review the wording. I think players could be confused by "Choose two straight lines from Pyria, each 3 spaces long." Someone could mistake that to mean two parallel lines. Let me try something else.
Twin Flamethrowers Special Attack
Range 3 Attack 4
Choose 3 spaces in a straight line from Pyria. You may also choose another 3 spaces in a straight line from Pyria. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Pyria’s Twin Flamethrower Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.

Jaur0n
October 23rd, 2019, 04:17 PM
Can you draw the same line twice? If you can't we probably need to say it in a way that makes that somewhat obvious. If you can, it might be better to simply repeat the first part again by saying do this one additional time or something like that?

flameslayer93
October 23rd, 2019, 06:37 PM
Can you draw the same line twice? If you can't we probably need to say it in a way that makes that somewhat obvious. If you can, it might be better to simply repeat the first part again by saying do this one additional time or something like that?

Why would you draw the same line twice? You only roll attack dice once. Unless sheís completely surrounded by your own figures except one route... which would kinda be your fault at that point anyway. :p

Clarifying it could be nice though.

Scytale
October 23rd, 2019, 06:54 PM
The wording "You may also choose another 3 spaces in a straight line from Pyria." covers this. There are other powers in Heroscape that use the "another" terminology, and they never allow you to choose the same figure multiple times.

Pumpkin_King
October 29th, 2019, 04:28 AM
Seems like something an R&C could cover.

I really like where she is right now guys.

lefton4ya
November 10th, 2019, 11:21 AM
Playetested PYRIA but wasnít that helpful as I did well with other units so didnít use her much (had Knights and Vikings and put spirits on her). 5 move 7 range (with Finnís spirit) is pretty good, and she can definitely Kite around the board. More play tests needed.

Scytale
November 12th, 2019, 07:45 PM
I changed the wording to allow her to draw only a single line if desired, in case she was surrounded by friendlies. I didn't think she was that uncontrollable that she would blast her own in that case.

TWIN FLAMETHROWERS SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 4.
Choose one or two straight lines from Pyria, each 3 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Pyriaís Twin Flamethrower Special Attack. Roll 4 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately.Suggested R&Cs:
Q: Can Pyria choose the same three spaces for both Twin Flamethrower lines and affect figures on them twice?
A: No. The lines but be in different directions.

Q: If Pyria is adjacent to a double-spaced figure and hits that figure with both Twin Flamethrower lines, is that figure attacked twice?
A: No. Figures affected by Twin Flamethrowers are only hit once, even if they are impacted by multiple lines.

Q: What order to the figures roll defensive dice?
A: In both lines, the figures closest to Pyria must roll defense first. The attack decides which line happens first.
General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? N/A

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, she could not use Twin Flamethrowers. Exploit Weakness has no effect. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording?

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? As a special attack, Twin Flamethrowers does affect destructible objects.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? No

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? No If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy?

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? No

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? No If so, is that clearly worded? How does it interact with revivals, via Glyph of Sturla or otherwise?

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? N/A

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? No If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Twin Flamethrowers is optional since it is a special attack.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? Even if affected by multiple lines, Twin Flamethrowers would only affect the Marro Hive once.

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? No

22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Yes Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc.


Capitalization Checklist:

Named Special Power
attack dice
defense dice


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. "Elf" is singular.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. "Archmage" is singular.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "Pyria's" is correct.

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. This is correct.


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? Nothing special.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? Nothing special.


Special Attack Checklist:

1. If the unit is a squad, can some of the squad members use the special attack while others attack normally? N/A Is it clear?

2. Is it dependent on the type of space the target(s) is on? No If so, does it work clearly with double-spaced figures and destructible objects?

3. Does it require targeting? No If so, how does it interact with Concealment, Tribal Protection, and Combat Challenge?

4. How does it interact with Hard Targets? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Aura of Despair? Nothing special.

6. How does it interact with Vanish/Spider-Sense X/Spidey-Sense X/Flutter/Exosuit X? A figure with these powers can only be affected once per Twin Flamethrowers attack, even if the figure moves onto a different affected space.

7. How does it interact with Ring of Protection? Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with One Shield Defense? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Nothing special.

11. How does it interact with Stealth Dodge/Nature's Protection? Nothing special.

12. How does it interact with Gift of the Empress Aura? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

14. How does it interact with Stealth Armor/Sacred Band Defy Death/etc? Nothing special.

15. How does it interact with Temporal Jump? Rygarn could only be affected by Twin Flamethrowers once, even if he Temporal Jumps onto a different affected space.

16. How does it interact with Cell Divide? The newly-placed Divider would not be affected by Twin Flamethrowers, even if it was placed on an affected space.

17. How does it interact with Redundant Systems? Nothing special.

18. How does it interact with Purple Heart? Varan could die from Purple Heart before being affected by Twin Flamethrowers.

19. How does it interact with Teleport Reinforcements? The newly-placed Marro would not be affected by Twin Flamethrowers, even if it was placed on a different affected space.

20. How does it interact with Eternal War? The newly-placed Ebon Armor would not be affected by Twin Flamethrowers.

21. How does it interact with Wounded Rage? Kozil could kill Pyria before all affected figures roll defense dice. In that case, the figures would still be affected by the attack.

All Your Pie
November 12th, 2019, 09:45 PM
Op updated.

Looks like Pyria is ready to move to playtesting as well.

:up: from me.

The Long eared bat
November 13th, 2019, 03:21 AM
:up:

Scytale
November 13th, 2019, 10:31 AM
:up:

lefton4ya
November 13th, 2019, 11:50 AM
:up:
Again I did one playtest with her but I had too good a army so will need to playtest more.

The Long eared bat
December 7th, 2019, 08:14 AM
Is this enough votes to send Pyria to playtesting?

All Your Pie
December 7th, 2019, 12:58 PM
Ah, didnít realize I was sleeping on this. Yes, it is.

The Long eared bat
December 8th, 2019, 11:02 AM
Map: Fairhaven by Flash19
Points: 400
Glyphs: Wannok, Defense +1

Team 1: Pyria, Deadeye Dan, 2x Ashra, 2x Death knights
Team 2: Tetsuo Tyrell, Feral Troll, 2x stingers, 2x rats

Game report: Pyria+Dks moved out first met by Rats+stingers. Rat took Wannok which did 2 wounds on Dan. After round 2 5 rats and 4 stingers dead. This was due to Team 2 reaching the other team first Dks rolling 3/5 defense regularly and stingers rolling terrible attack. Pyria was used aggressively taking out many units with her special attack and risking disengaging and the death of Dks in the process which payed off due to their defense rolls. Pyria killed 1 rat with a normal attack and rolled 3/4 for Twin Flamethrowers special attack 5 times apart from 1 attack of 2!!! With SA killed 2 rats+1 stinger, 1stinger+1rat, 2 stingers+1 own Dk, 3wounds on Tyrell, killed Tyrell+1rat. Tyrell had done 3 wounds on Pyria and she was finished by Feral Troll. However the game was already won. Troll + Otonashi never going to bet Ashra.

Units that survived: 1 life Dan, 5 Ashra, 1 Dk.

How did tested unit do?: Pyria killed 220 points which was a combination of aggression and a lot of luck. Bonding with Dks was very useful because the opponent was forced to spread out more which benefited the Dks. If Pyria didn't reach the other team's start zone so quickly or hadn't rolled so well for her attack and Dks defense she wouldn't have been as powerful. It was a freak performance.

The Long eared bat
December 8th, 2019, 11:29 AM
Map: Fairhaven by Flash19
Points: 400
Glyphs: Wannok, Defense +1

Team 1: Pyria, Deadeye Dan, 2x Ashra, 2x Death knights
Team 2: Tetsuo Tyrell, Feral Troll, 2x stingers, 2x rats

Game report: Otonashi used tricky speed to slow down Pyria+Dks. Which gave time for Tyrell to move up and attacked his own Feral Troll doing 1 wound, however he got Mind Jack which was used to move the Troll up and healed. Pyria attacked with special 2/4 and did 1 wound on Tyrell and killed an advancing stinger. Her other 2 attack were blanks which proved fatal. Pyria was killed by Tyrell and stingers. After that rats and stingers dominated the map taking both glyphs. Stingers rolled well and easily picked of Ashra+Dan.

Units that survived: (Tyrell 4 lives left), 5 rats, 4 stingers

How did tested unit do?: This time Pyria's luck and aggression didn't work. She fell quickly and the void the Dks left behind allowed stingers and rats to dominate. The Troll and Tyrell weren't as easy to shift for Pyria and Dks.

flameslayer93
December 8th, 2019, 11:57 PM
300 point battle on a homebrew map.
Glyphs: Revamped Healing, Recall, Def +1, Move +2

Armies:
Mine: Pyria (120) + Death Knights x3
LE’s: Grimnak, Hrognak, Blade Gruts x3

I tried to rush Pyria to start some wounds on Grimnak, and she did a little bit. My Death Knights tried to cruise in, and tried to deal damage. Mostly failed though, lol. I tried to put Pyria in the middle of the map to maximize damage, but her attack dice mostly lagged after the first throw. The DKs still managed to finish off a wounded Grimnak. After rezzing a DK with a low-ground Recall, a trio of Blade Gruts cut her down. My DKs did a good job cutting through her waves of Gruts, but ultimately fell to superior attack counts. LE wins with Hrognak (full) and 2 Gruts.

Pyria did a total of 4 to Grimnak (1 was healed away) and killed 2 Blades.

It’s good to see that aggro-Pyria doesn’t push the DKs into a higher tier. Even LE noticed that she was steamrolling me.

kevindola
December 11th, 2019, 07:16 PM
500 Points
Map: Ashfall by Flash19
Glyphs: Wannok Valda

Army 1: Aubriens x4, Venoc Warlord, Romans x2
Army 2: Pyria, Raelin, Warriors of Ashra x3, 10th Regiment x2


Which units survived?
Raelin (full)
5 Ashra
3 Regiment

I rushed with Relentless Pyria intent on maximum damage into a clustered startzone. She didn't make it but she still got work done. She flamed archers who came out first while in Raelin's aura. Then she pushed forward, but she picked off straggling archers before the Romans and Snake came out.

She had taken 4 wounds form Archers and then retreated when the Warlord came out picking off a Roman with a normal attack as she retreated back into Raelin's aura.

From there I switched to the squads while the Snake came in. Pyria died in that battle which Raelin eventually won in attrition for that side.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

7 OMs

Once used for movement
4 uses of Flamethrower
2 normal attacks

Flame Usage
Targeted 2 elves (2 kills)
Targeted 2 elves (1 kill)
Targeted 2 elves (2 kills)
Targeted 2 elves (1 kills)

2 normal attacks that killed 1 Roman

Damage: 6 Aubriens, 1 Roman (153)


Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

She played pretty fun and furious in the SZ rush role. I felt a bit like playing chess with a knight/bishop mix, trying to figure out what position could get me two lines that got targets. Usually this required engaging one of them which would have been reckless against another unit other than Aubriens.

Overall a high offensive output unit that the opponent has to be smart about playing around. Tempered by low defense. Nice unit.

All Your Pie
December 11th, 2019, 08:46 PM
Getting good results so far. Some thoughts:

Pyria doesn't elevate the DKs much, as expected and hoped. The DKs are very bad, so this isn't too surprising. I do want to watch out for if she becomes their overall best bonding option, though, and whether or not that's something we want if it turns out to be true.

She's performed pretty strong overall. Middling results in FS's test and a flop in one of TLEB's, but the latter only on account of two blanked Flamethrower rolls. I don't think we need a price bump yet but we should keep an eye on it.

I'll get the tests added to the OP here in just a moment.

flameslayer93
December 12th, 2019, 06:34 PM
As is, she’s incredibly fun. I wouldn’t tune her stats, so slide the cost as needed.

kevindola
December 14th, 2019, 01:31 PM
400 Points
Map: Morning Skirmish
Glyphs: Wannok

Army 1: Deathknights x3, Pyria, Dumutef x2, Marro Warriors
Army 2: Dreadguls x4, Valguard, Guilty


Which units survived?
Valguard (4 life)
2 Dreadguls

A couple of consecutive Charge rolls by the Dreadguls had them on top of Pyria much quicker than anticipated and they managed 4 wounds on her.

She got one twin flame, but it was blocked and then bonding target was switched to the Dumutefs because of how close the dreadguls were to the Startzone. The Dumutefs and DKs fought off the charge and a Dumutef caught Guilty.

However Valguard came in and and a big 4 skull hit killed Pyria. He then bounced around killing the deathknights with Dreadgul support. THe marro Warriors were boxed in and only managed a few kills before all being wiped out.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

bonded 3 times

Once used for movement
1 twin flame (1/4 that was blocked by 2 Dreadguls)
1 4v3 normal attack that was blocked by a dreadgul


Damage: nothing


Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

She got caught and hit hard by a couple of dreadguls. On top of that, there weren't very many good options for the twin flame because of how the Dreadguls split up and Guilty hung back.

The concentration on her did allow the Dumutefs to do some pretty big damage, but not nearly enough by the time Valguard started swinging.

I feel like 120 is a good price point for her after my two tests. Especially when you compare her utility to Kaemon. I could be persuaded her normal attack should be brought down in range.

flameslayer93
April 17th, 2020, 08:59 PM
Played against Pyria in a flash-fire game. Map was Castle Montíari. Wound and Knowledge were the glyphs.

My Army:
Jotun
Dreadguls x3
Morgan Riflemen

LEís Army:
Taelord
Pyria (7 range)
Death Knights x3

LE developed Taelord into the middle of the castle, with DKís in tow. At first I mobilized the Rifles to have control of the mountains. Shortly, Jotun made am appearance and was ready to rumble. Within the first rounds, Jotun obliterated both of LEís heroes and some DKís. He did eat 4 wounds during this time.

Notables: Jotun hit Pyria for a 6 skull roll, while she whiffed. It was a OHKO.

Pyria killed 2 Dreadguls and 1 wound to Jotun.

I think Pyriaís performance was mostly bad because I targetted LEís heroes and Jotun had enough time to develop. LE may have been better off trying to keep Pyria back instead of going straight for the burn.

Ericth74
April 24th, 2020, 02:54 PM
500 point armies
Map: Ashfall
Glyphs: Common Attack +1, Wound

Army 1: Pyria, Azazel, Death Knights x4
Army 2: Guilty, Pel, Valguard, Dreadgul Raiders x4


Which units survived?
5 Life Valguard, 1 life Guilty, 1 Dreadgul Raider

Really fun game, that went back and forth. Pyria was able to get 3 normal attacks in from height early on but rolled 1 skull on 4 dice each time, doing no wounds. Pyria took a wound in round 1 when the Dreadguls hit a Berserk roll(the only one all game). Round 3 looked to put the game in the Death Knight teams hands with Pel going down and many Raiders dropping. But an initiative switch in the next round led to a big momentum change, the Dreadguls opted not to bond and already had control of the Common Attack +1 Glyph, and were rolling 5 attack dice. With that they were able to kill Azazel, a Death Knight and put 2 more wounds on Pyria. Pyria was able to kill that Raider but the next turn took 2 wounds from Guilty and a killing wound from another Dreadgul. After that, the last couple of Dreadguls, Valguard and Guilty were able to clean up the remaining Death Knights before Azazel ever got a chance to return.


How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Normal Attacks:
4 normal attacks(3 from height) – no wounds, all blocked

Dual Flamethrower Special Attack – Used twice, killing 1 Raider in each attack(2 Raiders total) Never able to target multiple figures.



Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?
On paper Pyria is pretty potent. Whats not to like about 7 range with 3 attack dice, or a special attack that can hit multiple figures, and don't forget 6 life either. My problem was trying to get the Special Attack set up. First off, your opponent knows it coming and spreads out some(the Mimring effect) making it difficult to line up. Second, a move of 5 is good but not great and can limit you getting to the spot you want/need. I can think of 3 different times where if I only had 1 more move I could've hit multiple figures. And thirdly and maybe most importantly, with a range of only 3 spaces, she gets into harms way much more often than you would want for a figure with only 2 defense dice. In my opinion 120 points is too high, I'd rather see her at 100 or her defense or Special Attack range increased, or maybe look at adding an Engagment Strike d20 power(see Arkmer)? At 120 points you are competing with the likes of Hydra, Keamon Awa, and Krug, in her current form I can't see where I would want her over any of those 3, or Sgt Drake and Alastair at 110.

All Your Pie
April 25th, 2020, 09:37 PM
Right now, Pyria is sitting at 2/5. Not great for her, but I do want to note that we've done a lot of testing her with Death Knights. She might be one of their better bonding options, but DKs are quite bad so they might not be the best army for her.

In any case, I'm sufficiently convinced that Pyria+Dks isn't broken. I'd like for our testing going forward to use her with other units instead of them. The Kaemon Awa comparison seems apt, so that's my suggestion for army building with her as well--use her as a chunky, offensively powerful addition to an army that also functions reasonably well without her, putting her in a cleanup or first-strike role.

flameslayer93
May 12th, 2020, 09:34 AM
Last weekend LoveElemental and I got a game in. I wanted to use Pyria as cleanup... it didn't get that far.



Map: Castle Mont'ari; glyphs: AotV's Healing (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56367), Uniq Attack +1, d20 +1


Armies:
Me: Knights of Weston x3
Finn the Viking Champion
Thorgrim the Viking Champion
Pyria


LE: Su-Bak-Na
Marro Drones x5
James Murphy


Basically, the Knights went on a marro-killing spree. They did lose a few men, but with several 3 skull, and even a couple of 4 skull attacks, they quickly dispatched the Drones. Su-Bak-Na couldn't turn the game around either, only managing to inflict a couple of wounds to Thorgrim. Pyria was mostly employed to speed up the game by firing at LE's engaged heroes during endgame (she was boosted with height and unique attack +1).



Survivors: 7 Kow, Finn (1 life left, healed by the glyph), Thorgrim (1 life left), Pyria at full health.



Powers: Pyria never needed to use her special attack.
Damage dealt: 4 to James Murphy, 1 Drone, and 3 to Su-Bak-Na


Other info:
Crypoliths were never used this game. No need.
A KoW grabbed the Healing Glyph to heal Finn. That's actually a fun tidbit, making the glyph play distinctly from Kelda. I had tried to hold out until Thorgrim took a hit to get more healing, but after Finn took a second wound I just ate the glyph.

capsocrates
June 3rd, 2020, 11:34 PM
2020-05-25 - 2020-06-03
vs. my son and daughter
Heat of Battle on Thaw

caps
110 B-11 Resistance Corps
210 Jarek Guy
295 Rendar Fy
345 Soontir Van
475 Calibrax the Kyrie Warrior
605 Bossk (HoSS)
685 Erevan Sunshadow

caps's 7yo
120 Pyria
280 2xRed Mantis Blade Dancers
340 Morgan's Riflemen
405 Brute Gruts
575 Emperor Palpatine (HoSS)
685 Yoda (my own design; 30 points under-priced as of this test)

caps's 5yo
240 Iron Man
310 Josie Whistlestop
350 Leia (DFW Star Wars)
460 Han Solo (DFW Star Wars)
590 Chewbacca (DFW Star Wars)
685 Arktos

This was a pretty lively 3-way battle on the map I recently posted in my map thread. I did not keep a blow-by-blow because it was pretty lengthy.

The summary of Pyria is that she is pretty good; very fun glass-cannon type design, so well done on that. She is very Sharky.

There were enough targets in this game, and she was worth few enough points-per-wound, that I didn't give her much attention early in the game. Big mistake. She had been placed on low ground in the middle of the map, and partway through she got an order marker that sent her right into my Mariedian pod. She rolled 4/4 on her Twin Flamethrowers to wipe out a fair chunk of my army. Then she sat there a bit because she wasn't getting order markers and I was still more worried about other figures. She ended up going back towards the opposite start zone (where my daughter had figures camped out) and wrecking them with a 3/4 (finishing off Arktos and Han Solo, whom you are welcome to discount). Finally her last effective OM of the game saw her destroy Calibrax with a 3/4 hit. She was destroyed by Erevan Sunshadow Fey Stepping to her side of the board and blasting her with a 4/4 Fire Blast to steal on order marker.

In all she took 227 points (254.5 if you count Han Solo). I don't think this is a normal performance for her (she rolled very very very well), but it does pair with the design feedback I'll be offering in my next post.

Pyria wounds: 2 wounds from Wannok, 3 wounds from attacks from B-11s, 1 wound from Erevan Sunshadow

Kills:
3 wounds on Jarek Guy (60 points) to finish him off, killed Soontir Van in one hit (50 points) and 1 B-11 (27.5 points).
Then 3 wounds on Arktos (57 points) to finish him off and 1 wound on Han Solo (27.5 points).
Then 1 wound on Calibrax the Kyrie Warrior (32.5 points).

Twin Flamethrowers Special Attack:
4/4 (killed Jarek Guy, Soontir Van, 1 B-11, and they all had height!)
3/4 (killed Arktos and Han Solo)
and 3/4 again (killed Calibrax the Kyrie Warrior)

Pyria wrecks the Mariedian pod
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/212410255848636416/715402279171129385/JPEG_20200527_211251.jpg

capsocrates
June 3rd, 2020, 11:40 PM
Now, for the promised design feedback. I think this design could use a little dose of restraint. Here are my thoughts:

4-dice fire line special attacks have thus far been reserved for Dragons and other Large+ units
The only other non-dragon large units I know of with an attack of 4 are the Incendiborgs, and their fire line only goes out 2 spaces
Rhogar Dragonspine's fire breath goes out to 3 spaces... but he has 3 attack

I suggest reining in the design a little with either 4 attack and 2 spaces or (my personal strong preference) 3 attack and 3 spaces. You may need to bring the price down (maybe not) but I think it will make for a better design overall, and probably more likely to pass the VC sniff-test if we end up going that route.

All Your Pie
June 9th, 2020, 03:18 AM
Now, for the promised design feedback. I think this design could use a little dose of restraint. Here are my thoughts:

4-dice fire line special attacks have thus far been reserved for Dragons and other Large+ units
The only other non-dragon large units I know of with an attack of 4 are the Incendiborgs, and their fire line only goes out 2 spaces
Rhogar Dragonspine's fire breath goes out to 3 spaces... but he has 3 attack

I suggest reining in the design a little with either 4 attack and 2 spaces or (my personal strong preference) 3 attack and 3 spaces. You may need to bring the price down (maybe not) but I think it will make for a better design overall, and probably more likely to pass the VC sniff-test if we end up going that route.

Thanks for the detailed feedback! Only just getting back to ya now, but been thinking about this and wanted to provide my rationale for the design as it currently stands. I supported 4 attack from the perspective of the unit's function moreso than it's relation to previous fire lines. It makes sense to me that Pyria's flamethrower would be stronger than Rhogar's, because she's a spellcaster and he's a paladin. This reflects both in theme and mechanics, as Rhogar has much better survivability and a healing power to make his turns and board position more valuable. My fear with 3 attack is that it would cause the design to not be worth an OM in many cases, and I don't mind putting a splashy fun SA on a small/medium figure particularly in a master set.

Thaaaat said, I've been a mix of busy/slacking here and haven't gotten hands on with this design. I'll put her through her paces some and keep your points in mind while I do. I may also consider suggesting other tweaks (maybe 5 L or 5-6 range) to reign her in in other ways.

capsocrates
June 9th, 2020, 05:39 PM
To put it differently, the 4-attack, 3-space version feels like it lacks too much restraint.

If the 3-attack, 3-space version is weaker than 120 points then that is a cool thing IMO--there's nothing like her at, say, 90 points.

Pumpkin_King
June 9th, 2020, 09:25 PM
3A, 3R sounds fine to me. We need to be careful about low 100s figures in he set anyway.

flameslayer93
June 10th, 2020, 12:46 AM
3A sounds meh. But its not my pod to say what she should be able to do.

The Long eared bat
June 10th, 2020, 05:38 AM
I would be happy with 3A, but only if they are two separate attacks.

lefton4ya
June 10th, 2020, 10:22 AM
The Long eared bat, Pumpkin_King, capsocrates, All Your Pie
How about:
TWIN FLAMETHROWERS SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 3.
Choose a straight lines from Pyria 3 spaces long. All figures on those spaces who are in line of sight are affected by Pyriaís Twin Flamethrower Special Attack. Roll 3 attack dice for all affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice separately. When Pyria attacks with her Twin Flamethrowers Special Attack, she may attack one additional time.

Although attack goes down one, I think new advantages of splitting attacks outweigh this, because

If she whiffs one attack she has a second
She can go over the same line.

Scytale
June 10th, 2020, 10:35 AM
I'm perfectly fine with a drop to 3 attack on the special. (I'm much less excited about making it two attacks.) But then, I don't agree with caps in the first place. I think the unit is fine as a powerhouse, it is also fine as a lower-cost 3-attack version. Which version is more fitting for the set is more of a question of rest of the master set.

Astroking112
June 10th, 2020, 01:30 PM
I agree with Scytale. Pyria could work just fine with 4 attack or with 3 attack and a reduced price. Which one fits the best is more of a question of the set as a whole. Right now, we don't have many sub-100 point options, but there are still plenty of units left that haven't been designed yet.

flameslayer93
June 10th, 2020, 01:59 PM
Right now, Sorin and Kiora are lookinh like they’ll be sub 100. Won’t be surprised if Nahiri joins them.

Pumpkin_King
June 10th, 2020, 04:38 PM
Could we put a hold on discussion of the two options until we have a better sense of the rest of the set? I think that the difference between 4A/4R and 3A/3R is small enough that we can have a good sense of the unit until we zero in on costs across the set.

Scytale
June 10th, 2020, 05:28 PM
Could we put a hold on discussion of the two options until we have a better sense of the rest of the set? I think that the difference between 4A/4R and 3A/3R is small enough that we can have a good sense of the unit until we zero in on costs across the set.
I'm not sure I agree. I suspect the unit may play differently with a weaker special. Right now the potency of the special is too good to pass up. With a weaker special she may be more willing to sit back and rely on her normal attack. Though 3A may not be where that line gets crossed.

All Your Pie
June 10th, 2020, 06:08 PM
If we're sticking at 4A (which I'm currently still in favor of), I think we're very close to finishing up playtesting on this unit. If we bump her down to 3A, we'll need to do a fair bit more testing. I'm willing to do whichever leads to making the best unit for the set, but there is a significant difference there that we'll need to explore.

Considering the rest of the set is important, but I can't consider what isn't here yet. There is going to be some amount of later designs having to avoid overstepping on the territory of the early ones, which is a shame, but the other way around isn't workable. That said, I do also think we'll have to do some amount of editing once we have most or all of our units in a semi-final state and testing together, as that will reveal things we couldn't have known before. We'll likely have to make changes and run additional tests at that stage no matter what, so if those considerations suggest we should change Pyria to 3A then we can wait and see rather than making a decision now.

I do find caps' point that there aren't really any units like her in the 70-90 point range persuasive--most figures at that mark are synergistic or supportive, not pure attackers. I'll try and run some tests tonight and see how I feel about Pyria where she is now.

Pumpkin_King
June 10th, 2020, 06:59 PM
Alright, you guys are probably right. I say we test her as she is and fiddle with her power level/cost if we need to.

All Your Pie
June 11th, 2020, 03:58 AM
440 points
Map: Ruins of Rennoc
Glyphs: Gerda

Army 1: Pyria, Nhah Scirh x4
Army 2: Quorik Warwitch, Beakface Sneaks x6, Major Q10


Which units survived? & Nhah Scirh

The Nhah Scirh massed on both sides of the map while the sneaks advanced and Q10 took some potshots. The cultists soon rushed the major's position, easily blowing through sneaks and tying down the major so that Pyria could advance. Her normal attacks on the way in did quite well, including a strong 3w hit from height on Q10, and once she engaged she fired off a couple flamethrowers for a bit more damage before falling to a barrage of Orb fire from the Warwitch.

After that, the remaining sneaks folded before the numbers and stats of the cultists. The Warwitch made a decent show of endgame kiting, but Flutter didn't keep her in business long enough to do much damage.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Normal Attacks: 1 Sneak, 3w Q10
Twin Flamethrower uses: 2/4 skulls, blocked by 1 adjacent sneak, killed another adjacent sneak, 1w Q10.
1/4 skulls, blocked by 2 adjacent sneaks.


Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?
She's fun to play, taking potshots with her normal while rushing in for a big flamethrower while trying to avoid taking too much punishment. She's definitely similar to Kaemon, maybe a little too much so, since he has the same "long range normal, powerful SA up close" dynamic for the same point cost. Pyria is better against crowds, but I do see the argument that it isn't a huge difference.

She did also punch pretty hard this game, even with middling flamethrower rolls. Q10's occasional glass jaw certainly contributed to that though.

flameslayer93
September 6th, 2020, 11:22 PM
Playtest: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2416284&postcount=49


Thoughts from the game.
Pyria: Not much to say here. She only took 2 turns, but thanks to her range (and the fairly smaller board), both of those turns meant she could attack (although I'm fairly certain her first attack did nothing). She was able to kill Finn on a lucky attack, but not much else. Definately was fun to try to counterdraft against her, and I suspect we're going to want at least 1 or 2 good antirange units in the game to counter all this ranged hero-ness.

NecroBlade
September 27th, 2020, 09:37 PM
Putting this up while it's still fresh.

Me: Mimring, Tarn, Pyria, Ukushisa
vs MegaSilver: Q10, Isamu, Velkohr, Velnesh

Went for a 400-ish point "Master Set" style game with several units to test and no Common Squads.


Round 1 we both led with Squads, his Velnesh and my Ukushisa, both to get at targets we deemed threats. With initiative, on OM2 he was able to Shift through the wall on my side and get height on Pyria as well as tie up the UP with the remaining 2 Velnesh (awesome moves). Unfortunately his 5 dice did nothing to Pyria and the other two attacks similarly failed, despite one getting 3 skulls. UP in turn were able to clear the 2 Velnesh. Q10 moved into Machine Pistol range and killed a Ukushisa. Last 2 UP move toward Q10 but can't engage.

Round 2 Q10 tries Wrist Rockets but UP defense holds. They retaliate with 1 damage. Wrist Rockets again, same result. The Tarn Charge twice (one more would've engaged Q10 and Isamu) but can only attack the last Velnesh, who Blinks away, but still tying things up. Velkhor flies to height on a Tarn, positioning his Aura in the middle of the board, Tarn only rolls 1 shield to 2 skulls and dies (Aura didn't matter). Three remaining Tarn all get attacks this time, another Blink, an Isamu Vanish, and 1 to Velkhor.

Round 3 Ukushisa get initiative this time and do 2 to Q10. Both Wrist Rockets roll 1 skull and do no damage. Tarn attacks get another Blink, a dead Isamu, and another 1 to Velkhor. Q10 finally succeeds in getting both UP in one turn. On OM3 Pyria fails to roast the Velnesh and Velkhor fails to kill a Tarn.

Round 4 Q10 wants to use Machine Pistol on the Tarn since he'd have range to two, but opts for Wrist Rockets on just one target because of the 1 shield minimum on the Aura, and kills it. Tarn still can't get the Velnesh to stop Blinking. Q10 moves around to Pyria and hits for 4 with Wrist Rockets. Mimring takes a max-range Fireline across the board at Q10 (both Pyria and a Tarn in the way of other angles) but doesn't hit. Velkhor brings his Aura to the Pyria fight but can't hit her. Mimring kills Q10.

Round 5 Pyria gets a Twin Flamethrower shot that kills the Velnesh and does 2 to Velkhor, and Mimring finishes him on OM2 (Spirit did nothing since he was last figure in army).


Some thoughts after the game (mainly MegaSilver's): Shift/Blink had lots of good, fun options around/through the wall, made NecroBlade think of where to position figures that weren't actively involved in attacking. Velkhor's concept of reducing defense is good, but the execution is disappointing. The 1 shield minimum made the Aura ineffective, especially felt bad rolling 1-skull attacks knowing that it couldn't help. Velnesh and Ukushisa could probably swap points, the 5A/6D of the UP did a lot of work.

My thoughts for Pyria specifically: even though there weren't a lot of figures on the board, her Twin Flamethrowers made her look like a threat. When you put her on the battlefield and look at the possibilities you can see why. Even though she only had one real opportunity it paid off. She felt good and I'd like to see her against more numerous foes (and I do like that she's a one-power card).

flameslayer93
October 4th, 2020, 11:25 AM
Currently we are sitting at 12 playtests for Pyria, looking at her from multiple perspectives and multiple build types. So far she has played quite swingily, hitting hard some games, and others becoming such a perceived threat that she gets targetted early. She also encourages counterplay, by giving your opponent a chance to set up in a way that prevents a lucky Twin Flamethrower attack from wrecking them.

All that considered, I do believe its about time to start considering Pyria as about "done" as she could be until its time for final Master Set review. More importantly, this would give the MS a "base" to work from that we can help balance the rest of the MS off of.

Anyone else got any inputs?

Captain Stupendous
October 4th, 2020, 12:51 PM
Just wanted to jump in here quick to make a couple comments on theme before Pyria is finalized. Note that I wouldn’t push too strongly for either of these suggestions, they were both just a couple small ideas I had that I thought could make this design even better, but I think even with no further changes Pyria is in a great place right now.

First, I would like to see a more thematic name for Twin Flamethrower Special Attack. To me, this power name sounds too “technological” as a flamethrower suggests the use of a weapon rather than a spell.

My second suggestion is a bit more bold. How would people feel about retheming Pyria and renaming her as an evil version of Jorhdawn? I think that with the right bio this could be a great way to advance the overarching story of heroscape and tie this set further into the lore. It would also explain why an Elf Archmage would be fighting for Utgar, which isn’t an obvious fit otherwise.

It also helps that the official bio for Jorhdawn 1.0 already has a bit of a dark flavor to it, which helps sell the idea that this child could eventually turn evil as an adult. Official bio: The sky swells with darkness, blotting out the noonday sun. The child convulses her small body surges forward and back, her spine arches, her eyes glaze white. The fire comes.

Orange and red bolts blaze across the blackened sky. The raining flame collides with tree and home in brilliant blooms. The fleeing Elves weep for their great loss. The trees were their eldest friends and allies. The girl child carries her father's gift, and curse. Chardris, flame wielder, one of The Eight, has sired a Ninth.


Thematically it could also open up the design space to the possibility of another new elf wizard to replace Jorhdawn after she left the Order of the Crimson Sigil, since traditionally there are only nine elf wizards.

The differences in clothing and pose can be explained by the change from good to evil and her switch of generals. I also think that the similarity in pose between Chandra and Chardris could actually help to sell the idea that Jorhdawn is Chardris’s daughter, as it would make sense that her casting style could become similar to his as she grows older.

Pumpkin_King
October 4th, 2020, 03:38 PM
Would this be an alternate universe version, or a progression in story like Raelin/Drake ROTV/SOTM?

flameslayer93
October 4th, 2020, 03:40 PM
Would this be an alternate universe version, or a progression in story like Raelin/Drake ROTV/SOTM?

My guess is progression one, but Im not the one who's idea it is

Astroking112
October 4th, 2020, 04:52 PM
It's worth noting that the next step after balance testing is actually compatibility testing with the rest of the set. I wouldn't be comfortable with moving Pyria past that point (or officially "finalizing" her) without having a bit more structure on the rest of the designs. This is particularly important because she's an Archmage, and several drafts for the illusion squad have involved synergy with Archmages. If that synergy proves problematic, then the easiest answer could be to change Pyria's class.

That said, looking over the tests I'd agree that she's pretty much ready for now. If Pod 1 wants to move her along to wait in Compatibility Testing, then I wouldn't bat an eye.

I don't like saying that this is Jorhdawn. HeroScape has done units again before, but that was essentially the protagonists of the game. Players from the first Master Set would still recognize Raelin and Drake and see how they had changed, while new players would still get introduced to the main characters. Jorhdawn, on the other hand, is a much less iconic unit and Pyria looks nothing like her. I think that saying that this is Jorhdawn who pulled a Jean Grey will be a headscratcher for existing fans and not really do much to impress new players, either. If we want her to be connected to Jorhdawn and Chardris, then we could always just say that she's Jorhdawn's mother or something and went crazy before getting summoned by Utgar. :shrug:

Captain Stupendous
October 5th, 2020, 11:32 AM
Would this be an alternate universe version, or a progression in story like Raelin/Drake ROTV/SOTM?

I definitely imagined the change to be explained by a progression in story like Raelin/Drake/Hrognak. I really don't want to start dabbling in alternate universe versions; that way lies madness.

Personally I think that retheming her as Jorhdawn turned evil would be a cool angle for her and add dimension to her character and the overall story of the elf wizards, but I can understand if its too much of a stretch for some. I think it would depend on a good bio to really sell the concept, but I think if done well it could be a good direction.

Scytale
October 5th, 2020, 01:34 PM
I don't mind the idea of progressing characters, but making this figure Jorhdawn feels forced to me. And I don't think that tying in to somewhat obscure existing character is the right direction for a "fresh and new" master set.

Pumpkin_King
October 5th, 2020, 02:54 PM
Yeah I'm kinda leaning towards what Astro says - she has some connection to the elf wizards but isn't Jordawn herself.

NecroBlade
October 6th, 2020, 09:56 PM
Jorhdawn, on the other hand, is a much less iconic unit and Pyria looks nothing like her.
Planning on pulling out Jorhdawn I and doing a side-by-side, but unless they're totally unrelated I like the idea of Jorhdawn II here. Her bio is incredibly disturbing for a "valiant elf wizard". Changing allegiance as part of progression is new, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. The Valkyrie generals themselves change sides, after all.

I definitely imagined the change to be explained by a progression in story like Raelin/Drake/Hrognak. I really don't want to start dabbling in alternate universe versions; that way lies madness.
Agreed. Heroscape's story already does enough here, and there's no reason to believe no one ever changes sides in the war. Introducing alternate universes just wouldn't make sense.

I don't mind the idea of progressing characters, but making this figure Jorhdawn feels forced to me. And I don't think that tying in to somewhat obscure existing character is the right direction for a "fresh and new" master set.
She's already been forced to be an elf, so Jorhdawn II fits with that. I don't know how any character is more "obscure" than others. Each official character is as official as the next. Why make an "obscure" character from the lore, then, like Tyrian? Or Durnipia? This Master Set is "new", yes, but at no time did anyone say it needs to be 100% "fresh" and not relate to the official game. In fact, we're tying it in via bonding (Velkhor) and other synergy (Archmages, maybe), so lore/character tie-ins are just another part of that. IMO some ties lend to its legitimacy as an expansion anyway.

flameslayer93
October 10th, 2020, 11:25 AM
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/764491854434533386/IMG_20201010_101710358.jpg?width=457&height=610
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/764491855298691082/IMG_20201010_101717414.jpg?width=457&height=610

They look fairly distinct to me. Raelin 2 and Drake 2 both look like their first versions to me, and Hrognak is literally just the mini sitting in a howdah.

NecroBlade
October 10th, 2020, 03:08 PM
They're different, but not different enough that if someone told me they were two versions of the same character I wouldn't believe them. They're both female fire-users wearing boots and silver ornamentation around the waist. Changing from blue robes to red is cliche when turning evil, but nothing wrong with that either.

Every (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19670) single (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8274) other (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37609) Elf (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21346) Wizard (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21361) wields (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21347) a (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8409) staff (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9618), but it's easy enough to explain why Jorhdawn II doesn't (partly because she's an Archmage now). Given her disturbing bio, the other Elf Wizards built an inhibitor spell into her staff to help keep her destructive potential in check. Utgar managed to break the spell, unleashing her terrible power and turning her Evil. However, Ullar recovered the staff and summoned another member of Morsbane's family (https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019704217239578/image0.jpg?width=226&height=301) to wield it for Good, the gem restored to the end of the staff restoring its full potential as well. (This could be one of our strongest heroes, the staff being closest to Ulginesh's in appearance.)

Honestly, the more I write about it, the more I like it.

Astroking112
October 11th, 2020, 04:17 PM
Jorhdawn, on the other hand, is a much less iconic unit and Pyria looks nothing like her.
Planning on pulling out Jorhdawn I and doing a side-by-side, but unless they're totally unrelated I like the idea of Jorhdawn II here. Her bio is incredibly disturbing for a "valiant elf wizard". Changing allegiance as part of progression is new, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. The Valkyrie generals themselves change sides, after all.

I don't mind the idea of progressing characters, but making this figure Jorhdawn feels forced to me. And I don't think that tying in to somewhat obscure existing character is the right direction for a "fresh and new" master set.
She's already been forced to be an elf, so Jorhdawn II fits with that. I don't know how any character is more "obscure" than others. Each official character is as official as the next. Why make an "obscure" character from the lore, then, like Tyrian? Or Durnipia? This Master Set is "new", yes, but at no time did anyone say it needs to be 100% "fresh" and not relate to the official game. In fact, we're tying it in via bonding (Velkhor) and other synergy (Archmages, maybe), so lore/character tie-ins are just another part of that. IMO some ties lend to its legitimacy as an expansion anyway.

If it feels "forced" that Pyria is an Elf Archmage, then the answer isn't to make her feel even more forced.

Each character is indeed as official as the next, but that doesn't mean that they're all equally recognizable. Raelin is one of the most iconic and immediately recognizable characters in HeroScape for a variety of reasons, Sgt. Drake Alexander is in a similar boat, and Hrognak is a special case for literally being the same exact mini and having a new mount to pair him with. There's a clear level of difference in terms of recognizability when comparing someone like Retiarius to Sgt. Drake. This isn't to disparage Jorhdawn or other "obscure" units--it's only natural that some characters are more obscure to the average player than others, and it's of course different for everyone. Jorhdawn was one of my favorite units growing up, for example, but even taking that into account, I'd never think that Pyria is the same character unless outright told so, and even then, it just makes me scratch my head and ask "Huh?"

I don't think that this is equitable to making Tyrian or Durnipia, either. Those are random references in other bios that have some interesting details or potential, and then a design came along out of it that essentially turns those references into a cool little cameo. This is essentially rewriting an existing character and trying to force a connection when there isn't one. It doesn't feel natural or like a cameo anymore.

They look fairly distinct to me. Raelin 2 and Drake 2 both look like their first versions to me, and Hrognak is literally just the mini sitting in a howdah.

Yep. They look almost completely different. All of the existing "progression" characters are very clearly identifiable as the previous version. Even in VC, when some 2.0 characters were considered, it was using the same Pathfinder characters that had new poses and weapons. This is simply too big of a jump for it to feel natural, and forcing her to be a 2.0 character simply for the sake of having a 2.0 character feels quite out of place.

I think that the problem is particularly pronounced because Pyria wasn't designed as Evil Jorhdawn. Her card bears very little resemblance to Jorhdawn, whereas Raelin, Sgt. Drake, and Hrognak all feel like they're the same character with some new toys: a completely different fire-themed Special Attack isn't enough to make me think that this has to be Jorhdawn later.

They're different, but not different enough that if someone told me they were two versions of the same character I wouldn't believe them. They're both female fire-users wearing boots and silver ornamentation around the waist. Changing from blue robes to red is cliche when turning evil, but nothing wrong with that either.

Every (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19670) single (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8274) other (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37609) Elf (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21346) Wizard (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21361) wields (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21347) a (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8409) staff (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9618), but it's easy enough to explain why Jorhdawn II doesn't (partly because she's an Archmage now). Given her disturbing bio, the other Elf Wizards built an inhibitor spell into her staff to help keep her destructive potential in check. Utgar managed to break the spell, unleashing her terrible power and turning her Evil. However, Ullar recovered the staff and summoned another member of Morsbane's family (https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019704217239578/image0.jpg?width=226&height=301) to wield it for Good, the gem restored to the end of the staff restoring its full potential as well. (This could be one of our strongest heroes, the staff being closest to Ulginesh's in appearance.)

Honestly, the more I write about it, the more I like it.

This feels incredibly forced to me. I think that it makes for a stronger story if Pyria is simply an Elven Archmage who went rogue (perhaps she was even Jorhdawn's mother, if we want to tie in a connection to the fire wizards somehow). Sure, we can write a complex justification to say that Jorhdawn always had a latent evil inside of her, but existing players will still be confused and new players won't care. If Pyria had similar hair or some kind of identifiable connection to Jorhdawn (heck, even if the mechanical design felt a little like Jorhdawn, such as how Raelin 2.0 still has a defense aura, Drake 2.0 still has Thorian Speed and a grappling hook, and Hrognak 2.0 still has Orc Movement Aura), then sure, let's do something crazy with her story. As it stands right now, though, it feels like saying that that Erevan Sunshadow (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28053) is actually Chardris (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21361) after he dealt with his anger in his bio and found inner peace. It just feels out of place and doesn't bring much to the table that a new character doesn't already. :shrug:

NecroBlade
October 11th, 2020, 09:23 PM
If it feels "forced" that Pyria is an Elf Archmage, then the answer isn't to make her feel even more forced.
That's actually the opposite of my point. No one felt making Pyria an Elf was forcing anything. Making her Jorhdawn II isn't, either.

There's a clear level of difference in terms of recognizability when comparing someone like Retiarius to Sgt. Drake.
Comparing Retiarius to Drake couldn't be less relevant.

I'd never think that Pyria is the same character unless outright told so, and even then, it just makes me scratch my head and ask "Huh?"
We have to agree to disagree here. If I was told these were the same character, I'd wonder why, look at the bios, and think "Neat!"

This is essentially rewriting an existing character and trying to force a connection when there isn't one. It doesn't feel natural or like a cameo anymore.
Nothing even close to rewriting is being done here. There is only one paragraph, ten sentences, of lore on the character. That lore even specifically says she carries a curse, which is the basis for the evolution bio. Raelin and Drake become "more Raelin-y" and "more Drake-y", at least here there's character development.

Yep. They look almost completely different. All of the existing "progression" characters are very clearly identifiable as the previous version.
If "hasn't been done before" was a valid reason, we wouldn't have half of VC. No character has changed sides, either, so it's unreasonable to think they'd look exactly the same if they did. IMO, that's a cool new thing to have happen in the game.

I think that the problem is particularly pronounced because Pyria wasn't designed as Evil Jorhdawn. Her card bears very little resemblance to Jorhdawn, whereas Raelin, Sgt. Drake, and Hrognak all feel like they're the same character with some new toys: a completely different fire-themed Special Attack isn't enough to make me think that this has to be Jorhdawn later.
Her stats (save Range, which matches Rain of Flame) are identical. She has a single power, which is also a fire-based, multi-targeting Special Attack, same as the first... if she were initially designed as Jorhdawn II, she'd look almost exactly the same anyway.

This feels incredibly forced to me. I think that it makes for a stronger story if Pyria is simply an Elven Archmage who went rogue (perhaps she was even Jorhdawn's mother, if we want to tie in a connection to the fire wizards somehow). Sure, we can write a complex justification to say that Jorhdawn always had a latent evil inside of her, but existing players will still be confused and new players won't care. If Pyria had similar hair or some kind of identifiable connection to Jorhdawn (heck, even if the mechanical design felt a little like Jorhdawn, such as how Raelin 2.0 still has a defense aura, Drake 2.0 still has Thorian Speed and a grappling hook, and Hrognak 2.0 still has Orc Movement Aura), then sure, let's do something crazy with her story.
Jorhdawn's mother is never even mentioned, and again Jorhdawn's bio literally says she's cursed. See above for why Pyria's card, as already designed, is effectively the same as a mechanically similar Raelin/Drake/Hrognak 2.0 would be.

As it stands right now, though, it feels like saying that that Erevan Sunshadow (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28053) is actually Chardris (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21361) after he dealt with his anger in his bio and found inner peace. It just feels out of place and doesn't bring much to the table that a new character doesn't already. :shrug:
Irrelevant again. Erevan is a completely different species and from a different planet.

Astroking112
October 11th, 2020, 10:40 PM
I don't really want to drag this out into a lengthy argument, NB, especially since this isn't our Pod. I'll just take the chance to clear up a few places where it seems that I wasn't clear and then bow out of the discussion. Hopefully if Pod 1 decides that Pyria can pass as Jorhdawn, then there's a really good bio explaining it. :shrug:

If it feels "forced" that Pyria is an Elf Archmage, then the answer isn't to make her feel even more forced.
That's actually the opposite of my point. No one felt making Pyria an Elf was forcing anything. Making her Jorhdawn II isn't, either.

My understanding was that you felt like Pyria being an Elf Archmage was forced before Captain Stupendous floated the idea of her being Jorhdawn. I'm not aware of anyone else feeling like the Elf angle was forced off the top of my head; this was simply in response to my reading of your post that she was "forced" to be one already. My apologies if you didn't actually feel that way and I had an erroneous impression.

There's a clear level of difference in terms of recognizability when comparing someone like Retiarius to Sgt. Drake.
Comparing Retiarius to Drake couldn't be less relevant.

I'd argue that it's an apt parallel to Jorhdawn and Raelin, or pretty much Jorhdawn and any other "progression" character. It's an example that some characters are more obscure than others, even if all of them are equally official.

Yep. They look almost completely different. All of the existing "progression" characters are very clearly identifiable as the previous version.
If "hasn't been done before" was a valid reason, we wouldn't have half of VC. No character has changed sides, either, so it's unreasonable to think they'd look exactly the same if they did. IMO, that's a cool new thing to have happen in the game.

I don't think that anyone is arguing against this because it hasn't been done before. They are arguing against it because it feels forced in a way that no other 2.0 character has. It's totally fair if you disagree, but I think that it's important to recognize the sticking point for why some people feel like it's a problem.

I think that the problem is particularly pronounced because Pyria wasn't designed as Evil Jorhdawn. Her card bears very little resemblance to Jorhdawn, whereas Raelin, Sgt. Drake, and Hrognak all feel like they're the same character with some new toys: a completely different fire-themed Special Attack isn't enough to make me think that this has to be Jorhdawn later.
Her stats (save Range, which matches Rain of Flame) are identical. She has a single power, which is also a fire-based, multi-targeting Special Attack, same as the first... if she were initially designed as Jorhdawn II, she'd look almost exactly the same anyway.

The similarities pretty much end at "flame-themed SA that can hit multiple figures." Jorhdawn relies on being close to certain units to boost her attack, plays mostly like a ranged figure, and has a drastically different style of multi-attack than Pyria does. Pyria absolutely feels like a unique character, and I think that if she were planned to be Jorhdawn rather than someone new, subtle changes in the design would have naturally occurred. Maybe the explosion SA wouldn't have been dropped, maybe she'd be less reliant on getting into melee range still, maybe she'd have some way to boost her SA like Chardris and Jorhdawn's defining traits, et cetera. It can certainly be argued that elements of this design can match Jorhdawn, but I think that it feels clear that it wasn't designed to match Jorhdawn (which it definitely shouldn't have been anyway, given the project's intention).

As it stands right now, though, it feels like saying that that Erevan Sunshadow (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28053) is actually Chardris (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21361) after he dealt with his anger in his bio and found inner peace. It just feels out of place and doesn't bring much to the table that a new character doesn't already. :shrug:
Irrelevant again. Erevan is a completely different species and from a different planet.

Yeah, I agree. Erevan feels absolutely nothing like Chardris. I'm glad that his designers agreed. ;)

NecroBlade
October 11th, 2020, 11:21 PM
I don't really want to drag this out into a lengthy argument, NB, especially since this isn't our Pod. I'll just take the chance to clear up a few places where it seems that I wasn't clear and then bow out of the discussion. Hopefully if Pod 1 decides that Pyria can pass as Jorhdawn, then there's a really good bio explaining it. :shrug:
There was other support for Jorhdawn II, so hopefully others will chime in, since as you say this isn't our Pod (which is why I generally try to stay out, unless I've done a playtest or things just need a push). Heroscape lore isn't particularly deep, so I'm curious what a "really good bio" looks like, beyond what I already wrote (which is already longer than Jorhdawn's, though not as long as some VC).

My understanding was that you felt like Pyria being an Elf Archmage was forced before Captain Stupendous floated the idea of her being Jorhdawn. I'm not aware of anyone else feeling like the Elf angle was forced off the top of my head; this was simply in response to my reading of your post that she was "forced" to be one already. My apologies if you didn't actually feel that way and I had an erroneous impression.
I did question it at first, since her being an Elf doesn't do anything different than anything else (likely Human). On the other hand, there's also not a particular reason that she can't be an Elf. I see her being Jorhdawn, or not, the same way, hence if we're going to say one is forced, then so is the other. Since no one actually feels Elf is forced, then Jorhdawn shouldn't either.

I'd argue that it's an apt parallel to Jorhdawn and Raelin, or pretty much Jorhdawn and any other "progression" character. It's an example that some characters are more obscure than others, even if all of them are equally official.
I misread that bit. Raelin and Drake are in the first Master Set, so they are more likely in more collections than a given expansion figure. Hrognak certainly doesn't enjoy that fame, though, and more importantly I hardly consider familiarity a prerequisite to a character being eligible for progression.

The similarities pretty much end at "flame-themed SA that can hit multiple figures." Jorhdawn relies on being close to certain units to boost her attack, plays mostly like a ranged figure, and has a drastically different style of multi-attack than Pyria does. Pyria absolutely feels like a unique character, and I think that if she were planned to be Jorhdawn rather than someone new, subtle changes in the design would have naturally occurred. Maybe the explosion SA wouldn't have been dropped, maybe she'd be less reliant on getting into melee range still, maybe she'd have some way to boost her SA like Chardris and Jorhdawn's defining traits, et cetera. It can certainly be argued that elements of this design can match Jorhdawn, but I think that it feels clear that it wasn't designed to match Jorhdawn (which it definitely shouldn't have been anyway, given the project's intention).
6 Life, 5 Move, 3 Attack, 2 Defense. Those are all similarities beyond a multi-fire-SA. The different style of attack (namely not getting boosts from other Elf Wizards) is precisely in line with Jorhdawn leaving the Nine. There's also nothing about this project that has at any time said we shouldn't do a progression character. Someone jumping in at this point might not have Jorhdawn, but neither would someone who started with SotM have Raelin 1.0 or Drake 1.0.

Pumpkin_King
October 12th, 2020, 08:56 PM
HAving read along, I'm definitely open to her being Jor 2. It's not not like we can't go with that name for now and then if SoV doesn't take it we make an alternate card.

Scytale
October 13th, 2020, 10:39 AM
As one of the Pod 1 people, I'm strong against Jor II.

lefton4ya
October 13th, 2020, 12:40 PM
As one of the Pod 1 people, I'm strong against Jor II.
Similar - I am against but not as strongly. Chandra Nalaar does not look like an elf (no pointy ears), a wizard (no staff). Howevere the long hair and "battle skirt" make them somewhat similar, and Jorhdawn probably looks closer to Chandra Nalaar than any other Heroscape unit. I guess I could see a good backstory showing the change, but would prefer our own "lore"

NecroBlade
October 13th, 2020, 06:55 PM
As one of the Pod 1 people, I'm strong against Jor II.
Similar - I am against but not as strongly. Chandra Nalaar does not look like an elf (no pointy ears), a wizard (no staff). Howevere the long hair and "battle skirt" make them somewhat similar, and Jorhdawn probably looks closer to Chandra Nalaar than any other Heroscape unit. I guess I could see a good backstory showing the change, but would prefer our own "lore"

To be clear, Chandra is an Elf either way right now (pointy ears or not), and the lack of staff that wizards have isn't as important since she's also an Archmage either way (Jace doesn't have one, either). Anyway, let the Pod decide her fate, I'll be around if we need to take a vote on it.