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View Full Version : [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Testing


All Your Pie
June 22nd, 2019, 02:25 AM
The Book of Dienekes

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/567009548041453579/567019089982259239/image0.jpg
(Not sure why he turned out sideways)

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JANDAR
Dienekes
Human
Unique Hero
Fighter
Resolute
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 6
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 4

POINTS 90

Tether of Logos
If a small or medium figure moves at least one space and ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, if it is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If the figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Combat Challenge
Figures engaged with (figure name) may only attack figures with the Combat Challenge special power.

Editing: Complete (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2338179&postcount=107)

Playtesting: Test 1 (Flash_19) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2381088&postcount=125)

The figure used for this unit is Gideon Jura, Combat Mage from Arena of the Planeswalkers.


Character Bio: TBA

-Rulings and Clarifications-
TBA

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA

The Long eared bat
June 22nd, 2019, 05:12 AM
The figure looks to be holding a cloak of invisibility which gave me this idea:
When (Gideon) or any small or medium figure that you control adjacent to (Gideon), is targeted with a normal attack from an opponent's figure, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15? or higher (Gideon) or a chosen adjacent figure cannot be attacked by the targeting figure.

Another idea is that he could have a ranged sheild hurl special attack.

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 02:20 PM
He has a whip and shield. Odd combination. A magical Gladiator?

All Your Pie
June 23rd, 2019, 12:16 AM
I don't have much here off the top of my head, so it seems like a decent idea to draw some inspiration from actual MtG Gideon. If we do that, then this seems like a perfect figure for a re-use of Combat Challenge, so long as we modify the text slightly to make it less of a rules nightmare. The whip doesn't look quite long enough for Reach, but it is prominent on the figure and might warrant a power of its own a la Thorian Speed from Drake's katana. A combination of Combat Challenge and a power that gets stronger when wounded would make for a simple, effective combo.

lefton4ya
June 24th, 2019, 11:43 AM
He looks like he has a whip. I like trying to mimic Mortal Kombat's Scorpion's "Get over here" mechanic for Gideon Jura:
Whip Pull: After moving, you may choose an opponent's figure that is 3 or fewer spaces away from [GJ]. All of the powers on the chosen figure's army card are negated until the end of [GJ's] turn. If possible, before attacking place the chosen figure adjacent to [GJ]. A figure placed with Whip Pull never takes any leaving engagement attacks.
If it seems to powerful, we could add a 20-sided die roll in the power, or you can remove the part about negating special powers and just do the pull, and I like the range of 3 on the pull but could go with 2 if pressured. I like that even with out the negating it gets through some powers like Cathar Spearmen and Engagements Strike, but would love if it got through more like Counterstrike and Scatter/Scurrry (which IMHO we should have on other figures in the AotP set). Again, maybe I'm trying to mimic Scorpion too much but I think it is a unique but simple mechanic that fits the sculpt.

As far as shield maybe copy power (but not necessarily name) from Tough from Gorillinators, Iron Tough from Iron Golem, Shields of Valor from Sentinals of Jandar, Evasive [1/2] from Elite Onyx Vipers, Warforged Resolve from Warforged, or One Shield Defense from Crixus. Personally I think using Tough (but work on SA) is best:

Tough Shield: When rolling defense dice against a normal or special attack, [GJ] always adds one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.

Jaur0n
June 24th, 2019, 04:46 PM
I believe his weapon is an Urumi, which is a whip like sword that excels at fighting multiple enemies and is very dangerous to both people facing it and potentially to it's user.


I'd like to see something that takes this into account a melee splash weapon with a chance to hurt the bearer. I always like strong abilities with potential backfiring mechanics though.

The Long eared bat
June 24th, 2019, 05:32 PM
Scytale brought up the issue of diversity on AotV unit mechanics. If we make Gideon a gladiator he will have to follow Einar. Looking at the other figures in the set Jandar seems less represented and Gedion seems to fit that general.

Scytale
June 24th, 2019, 07:31 PM
The figure looks to be holding a cloak of invisibility which gave me this idea:
When (Gideon) or any small or medium figure that you control adjacent to (Gideon), is targeted with a normal attack from an opponent's figure, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15? or higher (Gideon) or a chosen adjacent figure cannot be attacked by the targeting figure.

Another idea is that he could have a ranged sheild hurl special attack.
It's not a cloak, is it? If so it's just a raincoat or something. Others have said it's some sort of whip.

Could just copy Captain America's Shield Throw.

I don't have much here off the top of my head, so it seems like a decent idea to draw some inspiration from actual MtG Gideon. If we do that, then this seems like a perfect figure for a re-use of Combat Challenge, so long as we modify the text slightly to make it less of a rules nightmare. The whip doesn't look quite long enough for Reach, but it is prominent on the figure and might warrant a power of its own a la Thorian Speed from Drake's katana. A combination of Combat Challenge and a power that gets stronger when wounded would make for a simple, effective combo.
Combat Challenge is fine (when fixed) for a defender figure. Is that what we want here? A power that gets stronger when wounded would fit this role well.

Thorian Speed is dumb. It's a bizarre addition to a somewhat bizarre unit that requires reading the backstory to understand what's going on. I'd rather we don't do the same. If we do something with the whip, I'd like to hope we can do something more obviously thematic than a katana that makes him so fast he's hard to hit yet not improve his speed.

He looks like he has a whip. I like trying to mimic Mortal Kombat's Scorpion's "Get over here" mechanic for Gideon Jura:
Whip Pull: After moving, you may choose an opponent's figure that is 3 or fewer spaces away from [GJ]. All of the powers on the chosen figure's army card are negated until the end of [GJ's] turn. If possible, before attacking place the chosen figure adjacent to [GJ]. A figure placed with Whip Pull never takes any leaving engagement attacks.If it seems to powerful, we could add a 20-sided die roll in the power, or you can remove the part about negating special powers and just do the pull, and I like the range of 3 on the pull but could go with 2 if pressured. I like that even with out the negating it gets through some powers like Cathar Spearmen and Engagements Strike, but would love if it got through more like Counterstrike and Scatter/Scurrry (which IMHO we should have on other figures in the AotP set). Again, maybe I'm trying to mimic Scorpion too much but I think it is a unique but simple mechanic that fits the sculpt.

As far as shield maybe copy power (but not necessarily name) from Tough from Gorillinators, Iron Tough from Iron Golem, Shields of Valor from Sentinals of Jandar, Evasive [1/2] from Elite Onyx Vipers, Warforged Resolve from Warforged, or One Shield Defense from Crixus. Personally I think using Tough (but work on SA) is best:

Tough Shield: When rolling defense dice against a normal or special attack, [GJ] always adds one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.
Negating powers is a huge bell/whistle that seems unnecessary, and would add a lot to a necessarily wordy power. (That power being Chain Grab, which we'd need to copy.)

Giving a Chain Grab-like power to a defender unit is pretty cool and valuable. Add on A Coward's Reward and it's really fun.

I believe his weapon is an Urumi, which is a whip like sword that excels at fighting multiple enemies and is very dangerous to both people facing it and potentially to it's user.

I'd like to see something that takes this into account a melee splash weapon with a chance to hurt the bearer. I always like strong abilities with potential backfiring mechanics though.
I like the concept, but I don't think the mini really justifies it. I get that's where it originally comes from, but all I see is a clear whip-thing, not some brutal melee weapon that can even harm the user. A concept like this should be saved for a mini that deserves it.

Scytale brought up the issue of diversity on AotV unit mechanics. If we make Gideon a gladiator he will have to follow Einar. Looking at the other figures in the set Jandar seems less represented and Gedion seems to fit that general.
No need to make Gideon an Einarian if he's a Gladiator. That's preferable, but we already have a non-Einar Gladiator with Tetraites.

Astroking112
June 25th, 2019, 03:18 AM
Looking at the project as a whole, I think that Gideon would be well-suited to fill a defender role. We already have Chandra as a (potential) offensive-oriented character along with others, and there's a certain appeal to creating a solid defender unit, especially in terms of creating a diverse set of designs to play with when the set is standalone. Gideon's Jandar-esque color scheme and shield make him a good candidate for that.

lefton4ya
June 25th, 2019, 10:42 AM
Forgot about Drow Chainfighter and his Chain Grab - Matthias Maccabeus might never forgive me. My idea was a combo of Chain Grab and Paralyzing Stare, but looking at the Drow Chainfighter (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29590) card it is pretty wordy and takes up a lot of the card, and other than getting rid of D20 roll hard to shorten.
https://i.imgur.com/YUzBbrz.jpg
For the defender idea, we could combine a defensive power (I mentioned suggestions above) with Combat Challenge from Tandros Kreel (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28051). In theory the "whip" or "cloak" is pulling/protecting your friendly figures while the shield is protecting [GJ]
COMBAT CHALLENGE
If an opponent's figure that is adjacent to [GJ] attakes with a normal or special attack, it must attack [GJ].

Scytale
June 25th, 2019, 11:45 AM
Forgot about Drow Chainfighter and his Chain Grab - @Matthias Maccabeus (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=2379) might never forgive me. My idea was a combo of Chain Grab and Paralyzing Stare, but looking at the Drow Chainfighter (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29590) card it is pretty wordy and takes up a lot of the card, and other than getting rid of D20 roll hard to shorten.
https://i.imgur.com/YUzBbrz.jpg
For the defender idea, we could combine a defensive power (I mentioned suggestions above) with Combat Challenge from Tandros Kreel (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28051). In theory the "whip" or "cloak" is pulling/protecting your friendly figures while the shield is protecting [GJ]
COMBAT CHALLENGE
If an opponent's figure that is adjacent to [GJ] attakes with a normal or special attack, it must attack [GJ].
Combat Challenge is a problematic power, but we can fix it, or perhaps do a non-problematic version.

A defensive power + Combat Challenge is a fine idea. One Shield Defense comes to mind. Or just have Combat Challenge and solid life/defense stats. It is also a fine idea to combine solid defenses with a Chain Grab concept. That's especially valuable on a sole-figure defender, which can't cover area like Deathreavers. A passive version would be especially nice, something like Swirling Vortex but pulls units in instead of stopping them. Combine that with A Coward's Reward and you have a real annoyance.

The Long eared bat
June 25th, 2019, 12:12 PM
Isn't pulling in figures too similar to the powers that have been given to Eldrazi.

flameslayer93
June 25th, 2019, 03:09 PM
Isn't pulling in figures too similar to the powers that have been given to Eldrazi.

This is a very good point. Although the design isnít 100% there yet, some version of Gravity Pull is a concensus with the group.

Could One Shield Defense + Reach work here? This gives him a defender role along with a way to use the whip in battle. Theoretically he could just have straight 2 or 3 range instead of reach as well.

Scytale
June 25th, 2019, 03:10 PM
Could One Shield Defense + Reach work here? This gives him a defender role along with a way to use the whip in battle. Theoretically he could just have straight 2 or 3 range instead of reach as well.
Reach is a poor fit for a defender. If his role is to lock down figures, what good does Reach do?

2/3 Range is problematic. There are no height restrictions on range, so he could attack something on top of a cliff if he could see it.

All Your Pie
June 25th, 2019, 03:33 PM
I like the idea of Combat Challenge with a passive movement interruption power. Something like

Tether of Logos
When an opponentís small or medium figure moves onto a space within 2 clear sight spaces of (figure name) that is no more than (X) levels above his height or (X) levels below his base for the first time in a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an (X) or higher, that figureís movement ends and you may immediately place them on any (same-level?) space adjacent to (figure name). If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Combat Challenge (possible fixed text)
Figures engaged with (figure name) may only attack figures with the Combat Challenge special power.

lefton4ya
June 25th, 2019, 05:24 PM
Good piont The Long eared bat. All Your Pie Tether of Logos is a little better than the chain grab power. Also means if you move adjacent to a figure it is almost like cyberclaw. I'd keep the D20 low like 11 or 13.

Fakeraistlin
June 25th, 2019, 08:18 PM
I like the idea of Combat Challenge with a passive movement interruption power. Something like

Tether of Logos
When an opponentís small or medium figure moves onto a space within 2 clear sight spaces of (figure name) that is no more than (X) levels above his height or (X) levels below his base for the first time in a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an (X) or higher, that figureís movement ends and you may immediately place them on any (same-level?) space adjacent to (figure name). If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Combat Challenge (possible fixed text)
Figures engaged with (figure name) may only attack figures with the Combat Challenge special power.

Maybe this guy thematically is some kind being with psionics... his weaons, shields are physical manifestations of his mind.

In addition to logos grab:

Maybe cheerleader or psychout aura of range 2 which affects allies/enemies attack by 1

Gideon has range 2 normal attack

When killed, presence of psionic psychout lowers attack of any unit within LOS permanently like the Vikings heros from RotV

Immune to mind shackle

NecroBlade
June 25th, 2019, 10:55 PM
FYI, there was some discussion of him being sci-fi due to the transparent nature of the whip.

And a spitball for consideration (since stronger-when-wounded was mentioned*):

VENGEVINE (https://6d4be195623157e28848-7697ece4918e0a73861de0eb37d08968.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/34906_200w.jpg)** LASH 13
Instead of attacking, roll the d20 once for each wound marker on this card. For each 13 [or whatever number] or higher you roll, choose an adjacent enemy figure to receive 1 wound.

*Could be as simple as Krug's Wounded Smash, too.
**Act now and we'll throw in a FREE MtG reference!

GreatPlainsKnight
June 26th, 2019, 06:31 AM
I think it would be interesting if he had an ability similar to Opportunity Strike 15 that would allow him to wound the attacking figure and cancel their attack. It would be as if he was stunning his enemy with his whip, kind of like a defensive Whip 12 from James Murphy.

Scytale
June 26th, 2019, 12:13 PM
Maybe this guy thematically is some kind being with psionics... his weaons, shields are physical manifestations of his mind.FYI, there was some discussion of him being sci-fi due to the transparent nature of the whip.
That works for the whip, but the full plate armor is strongly fantasy. Psionic makes some sense, but only for that whip. That shield looks pretty real.

Maybe cheerleader or psychout aura of range 2 which affects allies/enemies attack by 1
I'm against putting in a cheerleading power if our design is looking to fill a defender role, though an aura that reduces attack of enemies fits the role decently.

And a spitball for consideration (since stronger-when-wounded was mentioned*):

VENGEVINE (https://6d4be195623157e28848-7697ece4918e0a73861de0eb37d08968.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/34906_200w.jpg)** LASH 13
Instead of attacking, roll the d20 once for each wound marker on this card. For each 13 [or whatever number] or higher you roll, choose an adjacent enemy figure to receive 1 wound.

*Could be as simple as Krug's Wounded Smash, too.
**Act now and we'll throw in a FREE MtG reference!
It's neat, but again, if we're going with a defender role, this isn't helping with that. Though there's nothing inherently wrong with giving a defender some combat usefulness.

When killed, presence of psionic psychout lowers attack of any unit within LOS permanently like the Vikings heros from RotV
Rules-wise, at best we could mark all Uniques within LOS with a marker. The simpler and less insanely powerful version would be to put him on an enemy's card and only affect that card.

Immune to mind shackle
I've never been a fan of anti-take over control abilities, mainly because abilities that take control of units are very rare. Which means the power would mostly just take up space and add mostly meaningless complexity to the unit.

Jaur0n
June 26th, 2019, 08:19 PM
What does defender role mean? What would this role do?

flameslayer93
June 26th, 2019, 11:09 PM
What does defender role mean? What would this role do?

A Defender is a unit with either big defense, a defensive power, or a ton of life with the main task of engaging other figures. Theyíre similar to a Screen, except that they commonly want to engage rather than offer the threat of engagement. If they have nothing good to engage, they also make phenomenal glyph holders.

Examples include Ne Gok Sa, Major X17, Tandros Kreel, and Crixus (to an extent).

Jaur0n
June 27th, 2019, 10:06 AM
Thanks for the explanation.

I'd like to point out that the only one of those who has a shield is the one who is only to an extent a defender. My point is, some people seem a little too fixated on the appearance of the figure when Heroscape is littered with figures who's power and or purpose won't match too closely with the figure's appearance. It's a little dull to me to pigeon hole a character or reject an ability because it doesn't meet an eye test the creators obviously didn't restrict themselves to. (Race and faction likely being an exception)


I don't think I have a problem with this character fitting a defender role but it's an eye-roll for me that the main reason appears to be it's carrying a shield and not because we decided it should be or it happened organically.

Scytale
June 27th, 2019, 10:30 AM
I'd like to point out that the only one of those who has a shield is the one who is only to an extent a defender. My point is, some people seem a little too fixated on the appearance of the figure when Heroscape is littered with figures who's power and or purpose won't match too closely with the figure's appearance. It's a little dull to me to pigeon hole a character or reject an ability because it doesn't meet an eye test the creators obviously didn't restrict themselves to. (Race and faction likely being an exception)

I don't think I have a problem with this character fitting a defender role but it's an eye-roll for me that the main reason appears to be it's carrying a shield and not because we decided it should be or it happened organically.
I agree on not pigeonholing.

But as an experienced customer creator and reviewer, and as I have written repeatedly my Codex articles, knowing a unit's role is the most important aspect of its creation. If you don't know what it is you're trying to make, the result is often a lackluster hodgepodge.

The early ideas seemed to pin a defender on this guy, and I suspect the whole project is lacking in that role due to a lack of commons. If we wanted to go another route, I'd be happy to listen to ideas.

Astroking112
June 27th, 2019, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the explanation.

I'd like to point out that the only one of those who has a shield is the one who is only to an extent a defender. My point is, some people seem a little too fixated on the appearance of the figure when Heroscape is littered with figures who's power and or purpose won't match too closely with the figure's appearance. It's a little dull to me to pigeon hole a character or reject an ability because it doesn't meet an eye test the creators obviously didn't restrict themselves to. (Race and faction likely being an exception)


I don't think I have a problem with this character fitting a defender role but it's an eye-roll for me that the main reason appears to be it's carrying a shield and not because we decided it should be or it happened organically.

I believe that the stronger reason for making him a defender actually comes from looking at the set as a whole. We want to give a wide variety of playstyles for people to play with, given that this is meant to be a Master Set on the level of Rise of the Valkyrie.

Looking at other figures and the general directions that have been proposed, we've seen a good number of offensive oriented characters already (Chandra with a Special Attack, Cyberpunk Jace with self-wounding to boost his attack and conditional mind control, the Eldrazi Ruiner with pulling in nearby figures to attack them all, etc.). On top of this, there are a good number of remaining figures that may fulfill similar roles, and have less of an immediate case for being defenders than Gideon does, given his "good guy" color scheme, pose, and shield.

We certainly could make something else a defender rather than him to fulfill that archetype, but I find it worth mentioning to ensure that all pod members are aware that it is a role to fill, and to offer another design direction to consider in contrast to Chandra, the Firecats, and Ob Nixilus. The details of such a design or whether to take that direction at all is up to this pod, although I do think that the case for making him a defender extends beyond him simply holding a shield.

All Your Pie
June 27th, 2019, 05:56 PM
For what itís worth, we havenít decided unilaterally that this unit will be a defender yet. Itís simply that most of the suggestions so far have leaned in that direction. For my part, I decided to take inspiration from MtG Gideon in coming up with initial design ideas, and Combat Challenge seemed like the perfect fit. Combat Challenge as a power does not make this unit a defender 100%, particularly if we go with a power that strengthens him when he receives wounds instead of the movement-restricting direction. Alternatively, he doesnít have to have Combat Challenge at all.

I largely agree with your point that looking at this miniature and going ďwell, he has a shield and a whip, letís give him a shield power and a whip powerĒ tends to be a fairly uninspired school of design. That isnít the angle Iíve been approaching this from, however.

I do feel like we have a decent enough pool of ideas here that we can make a full design out of it. What are peopleís favorites so far? Iím pretty happy with my suggestion still, but Iím curious if anyone wants to pull in a different direction.

The Long eared bat
June 28th, 2019, 01:03 PM
I have another defender roll type power.
Battle valor: When [Gideon] defends, he receives one extra defense die for each wound marker he has.

Pumpkin_King
June 28th, 2019, 02:11 PM
I think a Jandar gladiator would be a great mechanical and theme quirk.

I also like him as a defender or tanky role.

Fakeraistlin
June 28th, 2019, 10:08 PM
I think a Jandar gladiator would be a great mechanical and theme quirk.

I also like him as a defender or tanky role.

Maybe also a Psionic Jandar Gladiator

All Your Pie
July 2nd, 2019, 03:38 AM
I think narrowing down this unit's thematic angle will help to nail down our choice of powers. To me, this unit's armor and equipment look too fancy for a gladiator, at least put next to the ones we have from official 'scape. I could see him as a elite Greek hoplite or something though, which makes sense as I think Gideon's home plane is greek-themed. The whip won't fit in naturally unless we give this guy a D&D-based theme, but it could also be explained by being a piece of equipment given to him by an Archkyrie after his summoning to Valhalla.

I prefer a Greek or historical bent myself, as that will generally be hard to come by in this set and I think it works for the unit, and I haven't seen any particularly compelling power ideas for a more high fantasy direction. Additionally, if we're using the Tether power I suggested, then that's about as complex as the card can get--we can't put a second complicated power along with one that already has that much text. Combat Challenge or Bat's suggestion of Battle Valor would both fit the bill there, although I would prefer to pick one or the other instead of both.

Scytale
July 2nd, 2019, 10:41 AM
I think narrowing down this unit's thematic angle will help to nail down our choice of powers. To me, this unit's armor and equipment look too fancy for a gladiator, at least put next to the ones we have from official 'scape. I could see him as a elite Greek hoplite or something though, which makes sense as I think Gideon's home plane is greek-themed. The whip won't fit in naturally unless we give this guy a D&D-based theme, but it could also be explained by being a piece of equipment given to him by an Archkyrie after his summoning to Valhalla.

I prefer a Greek or historical bent myself, as that will generally be hard to come by in this set and I think it works for the unit, and I haven't seen any particularly compelling power ideas for a more high fantasy direction. Additionally, if we're using the Tether power I suggested, then that's about as complex as the card can get--we can't put a second complicated power along with one that already has that much text. Combat Challenge or Bat's suggestion of Battle Valor would both fit the bill there, although I would prefer to pick one or the other instead of both.
Agree with all this.

Fakeraistlin
July 4th, 2019, 01:49 AM
I think narrowing down this unit's thematic angle will help to nail down our choice of powers. To me, this unit's armor and equipment look too fancy for a gladiator, at least put next to the ones we have from official 'scape. I could see him as a elite Greek hoplite or something though, which makes sense as I think Gideon's home plane is greek-themed. The whip won't fit in naturally unless we give this guy a D&D-based theme, but it could also be explained by being a piece of equipment given to him by an Archkyrie after his summoning to Valhalla.

I prefer a Greek or historical bent myself, as that will generally be hard to come by in this set and I think it works for the unit, and I haven't seen any particularly compelling power ideas for a more high fantasy direction. Additionally, if we're using the Tether power I suggested, then that's about as complex as the card can get--we can't put a second complicated power along with one that already has that much text. Combat Challenge or Bat's suggestion of Battle Valor would both fit the bill there, although I would prefer to pick one or the other instead of both.

What kind of Greek hero, surviving spartan from Thermopylae? To use a whip rather than spear, the whip would have to be something really special to eschew chosen weapon ... Of the top of my head I cannot think of any heros that use whips except fictional characters from the 80s (Indy, Tigera etc) or Gladiators, Slavers, cowboys.

The Long eared bat
July 4th, 2019, 09:49 AM
I think narrowing down this unit's thematic angle will help to nail down our choice of powers. To me, this unit's armor and equipment look too fancy for a gladiator, at least put next to the ones we have from official 'scape. I could see him as a elite Greek hoplite or something though, which makes sense as I think Gideon's home plane is greek-themed. The whip won't fit in naturally unless we give this guy a D&D-based theme, but it could also be explained by being a piece of equipment given to him by an Archkyrie after his summoning to Valhalla.

I prefer a Greek or historical bent myself, as that will generally be hard to come by in this set and I think it works for the unit, and I haven't seen any particularly compelling power ideas for a more high fantasy direction. Additionally, if we're using the Tether power I suggested, then that's about as complex as the card can get--we can't put a second complicated power along with one that already has that much text. Combat Challenge or Bat's suggestion of Battle Valor would both fit the bill there, although I would prefer to pick one or the other instead of both.

What kind of Greek hero, surviving spartan from Thermopylae? To use a whip rather than spear, the whip would have to be something really special to eschew chosen weapon ... Of the top of my head I cannot think of any heros that use whips except fictional characters from the 80s (Indy, Tigera etc) or Gladiators, Slavers, cowboys.

As a back story the whip could be a gift when he was in Valhalla

Fakeraistlin
July 4th, 2019, 01:32 PM
I think narrowing down this unit's thematic angle will help to nail down our choice of powers. To me, this unit's armor and equipment look too fancy for a gladiator, at least put next to the ones we have from official 'scape. I could see him as a elite Greek hoplite or something though, which makes sense as I think Gideon's home plane is greek-themed. The whip won't fit in naturally unless we give this guy a D&D-based theme, but it could also be explained by being a piece of equipment given to him by an Archkyrie after his summoning to Valhalla.

I prefer a Greek or historical bent myself, as that will generally be hard to come by in this set and I think it works for the unit, and I haven't seen any particularly compelling power ideas for a more high fantasy direction. Additionally, if we're using the Tether power I suggested, then that's about as complex as the card can get--we can't put a second complicated power along with one that already has that much text. Combat Challenge or Bat's suggestion of Battle Valor would both fit the bill there, although I would prefer to pick one or the other instead of both.

What kind of Greek hero, surviving spartan from Thermopylae? To use a whip rather than spear, the whip would have to be something really special to eschew chosen weapon ... Of the top of my head I cannot think of any heros that use whips except fictional characters from the 80s (Indy, Tigera etc) or Gladiators, Slavers, cowboys.

As a back story the whip could be a gift when he was in Valhalla

Utgar brought the spartan to Valhalla before he died, he wouldnt fight for them, treated harshly like a slave ( whipped) forced to fight as a gladiator in the pits Jandar frees him , he takes slavemasters whip as symbol and Jandar buffs it for use in battle against utgar and all his enemies.

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 02:07 AM
Utgar brought the spartan to Valhalla before he died, he wouldnt fight for them, treated harshly like a slave ( whipped) forced to fight as a gladiator in the pits Jandar frees him , he takes slavemasters whip as symbol and Jandar buffs it for use in battle against utgar and all his enemies.
I actually like that quite a bit. I'd prefer the Whip to be symbolic rather than literal but that's maybe the most hair-splitting critique I could possibly offer for what is otherwise a very good thematic direction. I can brainstorm/lift wholesale plenty of names for that as well when we get to that point.

For getting something up in the OP here, I feel we want something like

(Figure name)
Jandar
Human
Unique Hero
Warrior
Valiant
Medium 5

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 4

Points: ???

Power 1:
Tether of Logos
When an opponentís small or medium figure moves onto a space within 2 clear sight spaces of (figure name) that is no more than (X) levels above his height or (X) levels below his base for the first time in a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an (X) or higher, that figureís movement ends and you may immediately place them on any (same-level?) space adjacent to (figure name). If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Power 2:
Combat Challenge (possible fixed text)
Figures engaged with (figure name) may only attack figures with the Combat Challenge special power.

OR

Wounded Valor (Battle Valor is already taken by Capt. John Varan.)
Add 1 to (figure name's) defense value for each wound marker on this army card.

I'm fine with either direction. Combat Challenge could be seen as somewhat superfluous. I think it could also be interesting to give this figure some variant of Wounded Smash as was brought up earlier as I think a Defender that absorbs damage in order to transition into something of a shark could be pretty cool. Any of these options are something we could return to if the unit just feels fundamentally flawed in testing.

Scytale
July 5th, 2019, 02:58 PM
6 Life/4 Defense is quite beefy, but fine for a pure defender. If we go with an attack power (which I'm against at this point) we should lower one or the other.

Love Tether of Logos. Should also add that the figure ends its movement.

Combat Challenge is the better fit. First, his defensive prowess can (and is!) covered by stats. With Tether as the main focus, increasing defense as he takes damage is only cute; it does nothing to change how the unit is played with or against. Combat Challenge, however does, in a good way. That makes it ok for him to stay close to units he wants to protect without worrying about positioning enemy figures or them rotating around him to get to other targets.

Note, though, that the design already outclasses Tandros, whose only advantages are a weak range attack and a Life point.

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 03:02 PM
Note, though, that the design already outclasses Tandros, whose only advantages are a weak range attack and a Life point.

And Cleave, which gives Tandros some multi-kill potential that this figure lacks. I could see going down to 3 attack here though, since heís not carrying any weapons other than the whip.

flameslayer93
July 5th, 2019, 03:08 PM
6 Life/4 Defense is quite beefy, but fine for a pure defender. If we go with an attack power (which I'm against at this point) we should lower one or the other.

Love Tether of Logos. Should also add that the figure ends its movement.

Combat Challenge is the better fit. First, his defensive prowess can (and is!) covered by stats. With Tether as the main focus, increasing defense as he takes damage is only cute; it does nothing to change how the unit is played with or against. Combat Challenge, however does, in a good way. That makes it ok for him to stay close to units he wants to protect without worrying about positioning enemy figures or them rotating around him to get to other targets.

Note, though, that the design already outclasses Tandros, whose only advantages are a weak range attack and a Life point.

Tandros overlap is somewhat concerning, especially because if yall go the Gladiator route he also starts to pick up those synergies too. Tandros gets Cleave too, but thatís usually a nominal bonus.

Would cutting his attack to 3 help? Or should you let Tandros keep his Combat Challenge and go another route?

Jaur0n
July 5th, 2019, 03:43 PM
I really like Wounded Valor. Tether of Logos seems good. I feel like he's missing something though. I would think you would want a very defensive unit to be annoying outside being alive. Right now he seems like the kind of unit you would mostly ignore then focus fire down later.

Would adding a move check against adjacent units help create a need to kill him?

Scytale
July 5th, 2019, 05:06 PM
I really like Wounded Valor. Tether of Logos seems good. I feel like he's missing something though. I would think you would want a very defensive unit to be annoying outside being alive. Right now he seems like the kind of unit you would mostly ignore then focus fire down later.
Not if he's played well. Positioned correctly he'll be a real hinderance to melee. And a defender that requires order markers is mostly a failure a unit.

I'm not too concerned about the Tandros overlap; one would expect units of a similar role to have some similarities. My argument was mainly a cost one. And yeah, I forgot about Cleave, which makes Tandros more solidly offensive (range and Cleave), which makes the unit different enough, and adds to his cost.

The Long eared bat
July 5th, 2019, 05:23 PM
If both Tandros and Gedion have combat challenge and an enemy figure is engaged to both, which one do you attack?

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 05:29 PM
If both Tandros and Gedion have combat challenge and an enemy figure is engaged to both, which one do you attack?
Based on the text we have right now, Tandros. This is a fault of how the original power was written, which specifies the name of the figure that has it, versus the fixed version I suggested, which just specifies "a figure with Combat Challenge." Tandros fits both criteria, creating a slightly wonky interaction but it's a lot better than the strictly broken one we'd get if we left the power text unchanged.

Fakeraistlin
July 5th, 2019, 05:46 PM
Would giving him Gladiator synergy be OP? Mind. you I dont know whats there for customs for Gladiators?
Ever have dual synergy? i.e. Soldier/Gladiator or this falls into the too complex or overpowered category?

Jaur0n
July 5th, 2019, 05:48 PM
Does Logos trigger when a unit attempts to get away as well as passes by? I assume if the unit moves away it only triggers the once (on the second space).


If so and if it's a pretty decent change to trigger, I take back the non annoying thing I said earlier and think that and Wounded Valor are perfect together.

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 05:53 PM
Would giving him Gladiator synergy be OP? Mind. you I dont know whats there for customs for Gladiators?
Ever have dual synergy? i.e. Soldier/Gladiator or this falls into the too complex or overpowered category?
Gladiators have a fairly strong bonding squad and synergy niche. Plus, if we're keeping the Classical Greek angle than it's inconsistent with that theme which would be more of a Roman bent.

Soldier synergy is fairly minor and wouldn't be overpowered. Thinking about it, I actually kind of like it here, since most of what would apply to him would be movement boosts. Plus it's consistent with the Sacred Band, who are also Soldiers.

Does Logos trigger when a unit attempts to get away as well as passes by? I assume if the unit moves away it only triggers the once (on the second space).


If so and if it's a pretty decent change to trigger, I take back the non annoying thing I said earlier and think that and Wounded Valor are perfect together.
Yup, Logos triggers when a unit attempts to move away from this unit as well. This means it works even against figures with disengage, which is an interesting wrinkle that helps make this unit unique.

Fakeraistlin
July 5th, 2019, 06:53 PM
[quote=Fakeraistlin;2293904]Would giving him Gladiator synergy be OP? Mind. you I dont know whats there for customs for Gladiators?
Ever have dual synergy? i.e. Soldier/Gladiator or this falls into the too complex or overpowered category?
Gladiators have a fairly strong bonding squad and synergy niche. Plus, if we're keeping the Classical Greek angle than it's inconsistent with that theme which would be more of a Roman bent.

Does Logos trigger when a unit attempts to get away as well as passes by? I assume if the unit moves away it only triggers the once (on the second space).


.


Ah I see your point ,didnt see bim as a (Roman) Gladiator just as a (Utgar) Gladiator. same as type Soldier.

Scytale
July 6th, 2019, 03:24 AM
Somebody needs to sell me on Wounded Valor. I see it as little more than a bell/whistle with almost no gameplay change. On another unit, maybe a Menacer, I can see it building up tension. But I don't see any benefit here than an adjustment to stats wouldn't handle. Think about it. How would you play the unit differently with or without Wounded Valor? How about against it? Either way it's a defender that pulls other figures into engagement to protect other figures. The only thing I can possibly think of it to send a heavy-hitting hero at it earlier to reduce the bonus, but I probably even wouldn't do that since a heavy hitter will be able to crack the defense anyway.

On the other hand, Combat Challenge can drastically affect how the unit plays. He goes from a unit you have to throw out far on the front line to one you can keep together with other units. Very different usage, and better for a single-figure defender unit.

The Long eared bat
July 6th, 2019, 04:49 AM
Wounded Valor is just a fun thematic ability that is unique compared to combat challenge. Why does an ability have to make you change the way you play. Sir Dupuis has chalice of fortitude which doesn't change the way you play, neither does one shield defence or slither. Yes you could change stats but it doesn't give a sense of a warrior fighting it out to the death taking multiple hits. Wounded Valor could make you want to use disengage because it would make him stronger. The ability makes the opponent either choose a big hitting hero or multiple squad figure to take him out. It draws figures in to kill him because the opponent may get frustrated over the fact that he is nearly dead but keeps defending with increase defence.

Scytale
July 6th, 2019, 03:20 PM
Wounded Valor is just a fun thematic ability that is unique compared to combat challenge.
We shouldn't be comparing with with Combat Challenge. Combat Challenge is an ability with a unique purpose that would allow this unit to function better as a defender. Wounded Valor is only really comparable to different stats.

Why does an ability have to make you change the way you play.
There is a place in the game for purely thematic abilities. But on a unit that already has an excitingly thematic transparent whip, it's overkill.

Sir Dupuis has chalice of fortitude which doesn't change the way you play,
Agreed, which is why I haven't seen anyone who actually likes that ability or has reused it.

neither does one shield defence or slither.
I very much disagree. One Shield Defense is an interesting ability that makes me want to force combats with hard-hitting heroes and not plow into squads, due to how it works. Slither is map-dependent, to be sure, but it's a powerful positioning power for maps that have water in troublesome places (which is common).

Yes you could change stats but it doesn't give a sense of a warrior fighting it out to the death taking multiple hits.
Why not? That's exactly what Defense and Life stats are.

Wounded Valor could make you want to use disengage because it would make him stronger.
No you wouldn't. It's not like Krug where his offense is boosted. You're trading defenses for defenses. I may make you less wary about disengaging, but more life/defense will do that just as well.

The ability makes the opponent either choose a big hitting hero or multiple squad figure to take him out.
How is that different than not having Wounded Valor?

It draws figures in to kill him because the opponent may get frustrated over the fact that he is nearly dead but keeps defending with increase defence.
Again, how is that different than high Life/Defense?


We already have an interesting, useful unit with just Tether of Logos. We could (and arguably should!) release the unit with just that. It is the core of the unit as well as its thematic draw. And it's pretty wordy. Overcooking units is perhaps the most common trap custom creators crawl into; let's avoid that. I like Combat Challenge because of what it does for the unit, but I could live without. I do not see any reason to add a power like Wounded Valor that has no real gameplay effect and only arguable thematic effect.

lefton4ya
July 8th, 2019, 11:13 AM
...
Power 1:
Tether of Logos
When an opponentís small or medium figure moves onto a space within 2 clear sight spaces of (figure name) that is no more than (X) levels above his height or (X) levels below his base for the first time in a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an (X) or higher, that figureís movement ends and you may immediately place them on any (same-level?) space adjacent to (figure name). If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Power 2:
Combat Challenge (possible fixed text)
Figures engaged with (figure name) may only attack figures with the Combat Challenge special power....

The combo of these two powers makes you and your opponent have to think strategically and play differently, especially if you play him with Aura/Cheerleader Heroes or Ranged Heroes and squads. In a way he is almost like a Finn/Thogrim/Concan bonus but only against Melee units, as you are taking hits to prevent your adjacent figures from getting attacked melee. Give him high life/defense/attack and it makes him a solid Defender Cheerleader.

All Your Pie
July 16th, 2019, 01:49 AM
I've updated the OP here with the version that includes Tether of Logos and Combat Challenge. While I don't want to hard overrule anyone if possible, Combat Challenge seemed to have a bit more support and I tend to agree with Scytale's arguments on the matter. If we're agreed on this direction, than we don't have much left to iron out before we have a playable design we can move forward with.

Unless anyone has any objections, I'll probably just peek at the height restrictions on Chain Grab and use the same ones for Tether of Logos. I made some small wording adjustments to Tether of Logos also. Only real decision point here is where we want the d20 roll. Do we want it to be about 50%? More? Less?

Same name suggestions taken from Spartans from in or around the battle of Thermopylae. We could either use one of these or adjust one slightly.
Demaratos
Dienekes
Alpheos
Megistias
Eurytos
Aristodemos

I like Demaratos the best, although he technically wasn't one of the 300 Spartans. I don't think we need to worry too much about that level of historical detail, though.

Base stats could also be tweaked. I'm partial to 3A but could see an argument for 4. I could see us going 5L 5D, though I want to avoid cranking him up to NGS levels of tankiness if possible. Overall though

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 09:01 AM
Definitely medium 5. Not sure with the design still.

Fakeraistlin
July 17th, 2019, 05:59 PM
I've updated the OP here with the version that includes Tether of Logos and Combat Challenge. While I don't want to hard overrule anyone if possible, Combat Challenge seemed to have a bit more support and I tend to agree with Scytale's arguments on the matter. If we're agreed on this direction, than we don't have much left to iron out before we have a playable design we can move forward with.

Unless anyone has any objections, I'll probably just peek at the height restrictions on Chain Grab and use the same ones for Tether of Logos. I made some small wording adjustments to Tether of Logos also. Only real decision point here is where we want the d20 roll. Do we want it to be about 50%? More? Less?

Same name suggestions taken from Spartans from in or around the battle of Thermopylae. We could either use one of these or adjust one slightly.
Demaratos
Dienekes
Alpheos
Megistias
Eurytos
Aristodemos

I like Demaratos the best, although he technically wasn't one of the 300 Spartans. I don't think we need to worry too much about that level of historical detail, though.

Base stats could also be tweaked. I'm partial to 3A but could see an argument for 4. I could see us going 5L 5D, though I want to avoid cranking him up to NGS levels of tankiness if possible. Overall though

My vote is for Dienekes

The Long eared bat
July 18th, 2019, 03:47 AM
I also vote Dienekes. Claimed to be the bravest Greek to fight at
Battle of Thermopylae

I don't think Tether of Logos (ToL) will be that effective. It will be difficult to keep up with your figures and for ToL to be used most of the time Gideon needs to be adjacent to his own figure to move an enemy figure away. When a figure wants to engage him after moving, ToL is beneficial to them.

An alternative ability using the same name (ToL) which is very defensive based:
When [name] is attacked by a normal attack from an opponent's adjacent figure, before defense dice are rolled, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll [X] or higher, [name] rolls an additional defence die for each blank rolled by the attacking figure.
This would go well with combat challenge.

Scytale
July 18th, 2019, 10:20 AM
I don't think Tether of Logos (ToL) will be that effective. It will be difficult to keep up with your figures and for ToL to be used most of the time Gideon needs to be adjacent to his own figure to move an enemy figure away. When a figure wants to engage him after moving, ToL is beneficial to them.
I very much disagree. As someone who uses Tandros to great effect (and took him to GenCon!), a Combat Challenge + Tether combo has me very excited about the possibilites. I have no doubt it will be very effective.

lefton4ya
July 18th, 2019, 11:54 AM
I agree with Scytale (reiterating my comment above). Tether of Logos works even without an order marker on [GC] kinda like all the auras but 2 spaces away. This makes Combat Challenge a lot easier to pull off. Again give him high life/defense and it makes him a solid Defender Cheerleader.

The Long eared bat
July 18th, 2019, 02:13 PM
I would be happier if Tether of Logos was range 3.

Scytale
July 18th, 2019, 02:40 PM
I would be happier if Tether of Logos was range 3.
Try testing a small pod of heroes (Raelin + Syvarris + this guy) against Knights or any other solid melee squad. Range 2 is oppressive and probably unavoidable. Range 3 is impossible.

Jaur0n
July 18th, 2019, 03:01 PM
No strong opinions about the name.
Aristodemos sounds awesome and has a cool backstory of redemption.
Dienekes has the cool line about fighting in the shade.

The Long eared bat
July 18th, 2019, 04:16 PM
Range 3 is impossible
How is it impossible? Tether of Logos isn't currently a given, you have to roll the D-20.

Jaur0n
July 18th, 2019, 05:11 PM
I assume it has to do with wanting tether to have a fairly high chance of success and trying to balance it around both units attempting to run near it and units previously tethered who would now have to roll multiple times to escape it. Or I am missing something else.

Scytale
July 18th, 2019, 05:33 PM
I assume it has to do with wanting tether to have a fairly high chance of success and trying to balance it around both units attempting to run near it and units previously tethered who would now have to roll multiple times to escape it. Or I am missing something else.
Yeah, I want it to be a high chance. I would agree it's not that interesting if it wasn't.

All Your Pie
July 18th, 2019, 05:46 PM
Some clarifications:

The intent with the current wording for ToL is that, after this figure stops an enemy's movement, you have the option to pull them into engagement. In other words, you can prevent an opponent from using the pull to their advantage by simply electing not to move them.

Additionally, the current wording only allows you to roll for the power once per figure per turn. If a figure were to avoid the Tether and then move onto another space affected by it, you would not roll again to grab them. So you wouldn't get to roll multiple times no matter what, but I imagine we'll be having a fairly low roll in order to succeed.

All that to say, I agree that OM management with this figure could be tricky. That isn't a bad thing, though. Not every defender can do everything that makes a unit excel in the role. But this unit, placed in front of a ranged pod or positioned in a map's main pathway could be very effective. I expect that ToL is a power that will not activate often not because its ineffective, but because it's threat of activation will force the opponent to change how they play. That means it can be used either to deny a not insignificant area of the map to your opponent, or it can be used to prevent figures from leaving engagement with this unit even if those figures have disengage.

That combination means that an opponent will have to think very carefully about even letting you roll for ToL at all. Sure, if you miss then they can just charge right in. But if you succeed, not only is that figure stuck in engagement, it's going to have to go up against the d20 roll again if it wants to attempt to escape. All this to say, I think 2 range is the best place to take this guy to testing at. If he proves dismally unusuable at that number, we can consider taking ToL up to 3 range. At a glance, though, that number seems dangerously high for a starting point.

lefton4ya
July 19th, 2019, 02:01 PM
Not sure on D20 number, maybe <=10 or >=11 (50%) chance to start, but I wouldn't mind getting rid of D20 altogether as Cyberclaw and Tactical Switch don't have a D20 and they are similar in keeping opponent engaged and putting them on lower terrain if possible. We can test at 2 range with 50% D20, and if under-performs, either increase range to 3 or get rid of D20 roll all-together.

Scytale
July 20th, 2019, 12:37 AM
Personally I'd prefer without a d20, but moving an opponent's unit in this way is pretty disruptive to do so automatically. I definitely think it should be higher than 50%. This should be likely, likely enough that opponents will assume it will happen unless they're desperate. I'd start at 7+.

All Your Pie
July 20th, 2019, 01:27 AM
I like having a d20 roll just so that the opponent might actually risk triggering it sometimes, and so the power isnít just a strictly better version of the Air Elemental. I agree keeping the odds above 50% is ideal, though.

lefton4ya
July 22nd, 2019, 11:10 AM
Scytale & All Your Pie makes sense to have D20 with high % to add some strategic decisions on opponent's end (kinda like reverse tactical disengagement). 7+ is 70% so seems good. test at 2 range and try to get stated.

FYI I am busy the next month with MBA but afterward will be able to test more.

Pumpkin_King
August 19th, 2019, 11:57 PM
Bumping this guy. Just gonna repeat my wish for a Jandar gladiator!

All Your Pie
August 21st, 2019, 06:51 PM
I've updated the OP, since things seemed to be fairly well-agreed upon where we left it. Dienekes for the name and 7+ for Tether of Logos.

All that's left is to decide on price before we have a design we can bring to testing. I'm thinking sub-100 here. 80-90ish, maybe?

Scytale
August 21st, 2019, 07:16 PM
90 feels about right. Offense is low, but survivability is high and the powers are good.

Pumpkin_King
September 29th, 2019, 05:03 AM
Bumping this lad. How are we feeling about him?

All Your Pie
September 30th, 2019, 01:30 AM
Hm, I didnít realize how much weíd done here. Updated OP with 90 for point cost and 7+ for Tether of Logos.

As I recall there were still some reservations, but those canít be properly addressed until we get into testing. So I think we can move this along.

I propose we move to Editing. An :up: to do so from me.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 01:57 AM
Sounds good to me as well

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 03:54 AM
Still not a huge fan of the design. I would like it if he could pull your own figures as well.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 04:44 AM
PTI, this isn’t my pod, but I think we’re missing an opportunity to make a Jandar gladiator.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 09:44 AM
PTI, this isnít my pod, but I think weíre missing an opportunity to make a Jandar gladiator.

I liked the idea as well, also proposed a backstory that could explain why greek spartan gladiator and soldier/glad

Scytale
September 30th, 2019, 11:41 AM
Unlike others, I have no interest in adding another to the somewhat crowded Gladiator field, and I really love this design. The combination of powers makes him really potent as a defender, despite being a single unit. He would really shine in a dungeon crawl scenario, and would work well with hero-based army builds.

:up:

lefton4ya
September 30th, 2019, 05:53 PM
Class: I prefer Fighter over Soldier - Tandros Kreel needs a fellow fighter ;)
Personality: Ok with Valiant but prefer not (mostly due to 4th synergy) - maybe Fearless or Inspiring?

Scytale
September 30th, 2019, 06:07 PM
Class: I prefer Fighter over Soldier - Tandros Kreel needs a fellow fighter ;)
Agreed.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 11:27 PM
Fighter is better than soldier, for sure.

All Your Pie
October 2nd, 2019, 12:43 AM
I'm fine with Fighter. Not too worried about 4th synergy, I don't see that army having much to gain from OMs on this guy.

Taking Fakeraistlin as :up: and TLEB as :down:, we're 3-1 here. Are you an :up: with class changed to fighter, Lefton?

Fakeraistlin
October 2nd, 2019, 01:19 AM
I'm fine with Fighter. Not too worried about 4th synergy, I don't see that army having much to gain from OMs on this guy.

Taking Fakeraistlin as :up: and TLEB as :down:, we're 3-1 here. Are you an :up: with class changed to fighter, Lefton?

Thumbs up :up: on Vote for Fighter over Soldier, still like glad though.

lefton4ya
October 2nd, 2019, 02:37 PM
:up: Fighter
Class: I prefer Fighter over Soldier - Tandros Kreel needs a fellow fighter ;)
Personality: Ok with Valiant but prefer not (mostly due to 4th synergy) - maybe Fearless or Inspiring?
We still using Valiant though? Again main concern is making the 4th better than they already are.

Scytale
October 2nd, 2019, 03:41 PM
We still using Valiant though? Again main concern is making the 4th better than they already are.
This is a good point. We're giving the 4th a pretty decent defender, though arguably not as good as the Sentinels of Jandar.

The best alternate I can think of is Resolute.

All Your Pie
October 2nd, 2019, 03:47 PM
Hm, I did forget about Resolute. Dodges 4th synergy, and sounds a bit more appropriate for a defensive figure anyway. I'll add it to the OP as we move into Editing.

lefton4ya
November 8th, 2019, 11:30 AM
Everyone OK with moving to Editing phase (and shortly thereafter playtest)?
All Your Pie (Pod Leader)
Scytale (Pod Leader)
Fakeraistlin
lefton4ya
Jaur0n
The Long eared bat

Scytale
November 8th, 2019, 11:54 AM
:up:

The Long eared bat
November 8th, 2019, 12:11 PM
:up: although a little wordy for a starter set style card.

Fakeraistlin
November 8th, 2019, 04:06 PM
:up:

Jaur0n
November 8th, 2019, 07:01 PM
:up: although a little wordy for a starter set style card.

Same

All Your Pie
November 8th, 2019, 08:18 PM
I thought we were already in editing? Either way, :up: from me.

Scytale
November 12th, 2019, 04:10 PM
I started looking at Dienekes from an Editing perspective, and Tether of Logos has a number of problems to solve.

First, there are a number of problems with special movements, including interrupting interrupts like Cell Divide and movements that do not take place during any turn such as Movement Bonding. By far the easiest and best way to handle that is to limit Tether to only normal movements.

Second, there is the problem of ending a figure's movement. That's not possible if the figure is on a space where it cannot end its movement, such as when Phantom Walking through another figure. That can be solved by adding a "on a space where that figure can end its movement" clause, though that's adding another clause to an already clause-heavy power.

Third, there are timing issues with other effects that trigger off of moving onto spaces, such as Engagment Strike or molten lava. It's a little strange as a roll-off, as the Engagement Strike, molten lava roll, etc would still occur, even if the figure is moved. I think we can get around this by making Tether happen "after" the figure moves onto the space, as opposed to "moves." I think we can argue that Tether would happen after those other effects.

So here's what I have:
TETHER OF LOGOS
After an opponentís small or medium figure moves normally onto a space within 2 clear sight spaces of Dienekes where it can end its movement that is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below Dienekes's base for the first time in a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 7 or higher, that figureís movement ends and you may, if possible, immediately place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
That's getting pretty complicated... let me try something else:
TETHER OF LOGOS
If an opponent's small or medium figure ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes and is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
That makes it so that fast figures can zip past him, potentially, and it does mess with oddities like Cell Divide. But I don't think it's unreasonable, and significantly less wordy. Though we would need to rule that ending movement happens before "after moving, before attacking" powers, lest we run into a full gamut of troublesome interactions.

With this we could extend Dienekes's usefulness considerably by dropping the "opponent's" requirement.

TETHER OF LOGOS
If a small or medium figure ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes and is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

All Your Pie
November 12th, 2019, 09:43 PM
If we weren't stuck with the chainfighter-style high/below wording, I might be okay with adding the necessary conditions to make the movement interruption version of the special work. The main thing I'm not happy about losing is the ability to keep even figures with Disengage tied down by grabbing them with the Tether as they leave. That's a very personal design interest on my part, though.

Otherwise, I think the revised version covers more or less what we want. 3 spaces is a lot for this kind of effect, so I'm not overly worried about the change nerfing the power level. If anything, including friendlies in who can be affected might actually be worth a small bump in points. I like the way that plays with Combat Challenge, though.

Of note is that most of the figures that can entirely zip past the affected area are already large or huge. A few medium figures have 7 or 8 move, but I don't mind that subset having a leg up here.

lefton4ya
November 13th, 2019, 11:23 AM
I like the last one by Scytale, as long as it affects things like scatter/scurry so out-of-turn moves can also get Tethered.

Scytale
November 13th, 2019, 12:59 PM
I like the last one by @Scytale (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=968) , as long as it affects things like scatter/scurry so out-of-turn moves can also get Tethered.
It does, as well as summons and other placements. The trick is that it can only be used when a movement (of any sort) ends, which removes issues with figures being on spaces they cannot end their movement as well as removing the one-per-turn restriction. It is now possible for figures to be affected twice, such as from an after-movement movement power, but those are rare and not problematic.

It's definitely a change to the behavior of the power. If this was C3V I wouldn't blink at the conditions added to it, but the target audience here is newish players. I think it's worth at least discussing the simpler option.

The new version that allows for movement of friendly figures opens up a whole world of new uses. Run Dienekes up on a hill, then use him to pull up other figures as a passive boost. Or pull units out of engagements to relative safety. Or pull units into attacking position. Lots of possibilities, but neatly restricted by the same-level requirement.

Either way, though, I think I have to modify it to only figures that have moved at least one space. It gets messy if we try to allow moving zero spaces, especially when dealing with opponent's figures.
TETHER OF LOGOS
If a[n opponent's] small or medium figure moves at least one space and ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, if it is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If the figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

lefton4ya
November 13th, 2019, 01:45 PM
Nice though. Only thing is people still disagree if PLACED=MOVED or not, so to clear up maybe just add "...figure [is placed] or moves at least one space and is placed or ends its movement..."

So many loopholes to close ;)

Scytale
November 13th, 2019, 01:50 PM
Nice though. Only thing is people still disagree if PLACED=MOVED or not, so to clear up maybe just add "...figure [is placed] or moves at least one space and is placed or ends its movement..."

Doesn't matter if they disagree or not; it's in the official FAQ. Placed = moved.

The Long eared bat
December 7th, 2019, 08:31 AM
Are we all happy with this.
TETHER OF LOGOS
If a small or medium figure moves at least one space and ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, if it is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If the figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
I like Dienekes being able to move your own figures as well as opponent's. Although wordy I think it is understandable for beginners.

All Your Pie
December 7th, 2019, 12:57 PM
Thinking on it more, I can get behind that proposal. 3 spaces is a lot so Iím not worried about losing utility.

Thoughts Jaur0n , Fakeraistlin ?

Fakeraistlin
December 10th, 2019, 10:45 AM
Simpler to be easily understood and useful. Very nice

Jaur0n
December 11th, 2019, 11:27 AM
Maybe I'm just missing what it's role is. It's kind of gone from a pain in the butt to escape from to a I move people around sometimes and if I move your guy he has to attack me if he's dumb enough to end his movement within 3 spaces of me.

My lack of imagination might be preventing me form seeing why I would want this guy his my army. I understand why we have to change it but it feels kind of meh or I'm missing why it's awesome. Can anyone help me get there?

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 11:33 AM
Maybe I'm just missing what it's role is. It's kind of gone from a pain in the butt to escape from to a I move people around sometimes and if I move your guy he has to attack me if he's dumb enough to end his movement within 3 spaces of me.

My lack of imagination might be preventing me form seeing why I would want this guy his my army. I understand why we have to change it but it feels kind of meh or I'm missing why it's awesome. Can anyone help me get there?
The role is still the same, with some added utility. He's a defender, forcing enemy figures to attack him instead of more important figures. Anything that moves near him he pulls next to himself, and forces them to attack him. He also is able to pull allies close, which helps being able to protect them.

This is easily my favorite of our designs, with many interesting applications. Especially good for dungeon crawl scenarios, but also especially good when combined with a ranged pod like Raelin + Krav/Q9. That's the simple stuff. More complex uses involve melee, using him as a launcher to pull reinforcements immediately to the front lines, allowing for earlier attacks than normal Barge-into-Battle-ish along with the obvious advantage of holding a hill.

lefton4ya
December 11th, 2019, 12:52 PM
I could see him definitely be used to protect Raelin, Major Q9, Braxas/Nilfeheim, or any other ranged unique hero/squad. 90 points as is might be too cheap. Someone needs to play him with all A+ units (Raelin, Major Q9, Deathreavers) against Melee powerhouses (Knights or Heavy Gruts) to see his maximum value.

All Your Pie
December 11th, 2019, 03:38 PM
OP updated with the revised Tether of Logos.

We still need to re-run the checklist with that change in account, right?

The Long eared bat
December 11th, 2019, 03:40 PM
I think so. If we are voting for editing :up: for me.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 05:23 PM
We still need to re-run the checklist with that change in account, right?
I actually haven't run it at all yet. Hopefully today or tomorrow.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 07:16 PM
Thanks to all for being willing to adjust based on Editing challenges. Let's give this a run.

TETHER OF LOGOS
If a small or medium figure moves at least one space and ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, if it is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If the figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

COMBAT CHALLENGE
If an opponent's figure that is adjacent to Dienekes attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack a figure with the Combat Challenge special power.Suggested R&Cs:
Q: If a Marro Drudge would ends it normal move within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, what happens first, Tether of Logos or Swamp Water Tunnel?
A: Swamp Water Tunnel happens "immediately," so it occurs before Tether. If the Drudge Tunnels out of Tether's reach, Tether cannot be used.

Q: If a Horned Skull Brute ends its movement adjacent to a Goblin Cutter within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, what happens first, Tether of Logos or Barge Into Battle?
A: Tether of Logos happens at the end of movement, which is before Barge Into Battle's "after moving." After being moved by Tether, the Brute may no longer be able to Barge Into Battle using that Goblin Cutter, and may be able to Barge Into Battle using a different figure.
General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No, Combat Challenge is an existing power.

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? No, because Combat Challenge is a poorly-written power. We have reworded it to make it work.

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, Dienekes could not use Tether of Logos, nor would Combat Challenge prevent adjacent figures from attacking other figures. Exploit Weakness could allow the attacker to target a different adjacent enemy figure even if engaged with Dienekes. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording?

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? Tether of Logos cannot affect a DO because they do not have sizes. I'm not entirely certain about Combat Challenge for a theoretical DO that could attack, but since it's an official power we don't need to solve that.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? Dienekes could help reposition figures, but that is intentional. Combat Challenge could protect another player's units from a 3rd player, but that is also intentional.

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? Yes If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? Mystic Sacrifice could be used to increase the d20 roll if Myrradin is close enough to Dienekes. If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? N/A If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy? N/A

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? No

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? No If so, is that clearly worded? How does it interact with revivals, via Glyph of Sturla or otherwise?

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? No

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? No If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Tether of Logos is clearly optional. Combat Challenge is clearly mandatory.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? Nothing special.

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Tether of Logos is a very specific name, but it's not much of a reusable power.

22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Yes Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc.


Capitalization Checklist:

Named Special Power
size
height


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. "Human" is singular.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. "Fighter" is singular.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "Dienekes's" is correct.

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. N/A


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? Nothing special.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? Nothing special.


Defense Power Checklist:

1. Does it work against special attacks? Yes If so, how does it interact with every special attack in the game (listed here (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42201))? Take careful note of interaction with multi-figure special attacks like Encircle Special Attack. Combat Challenge is rather messy with special attacks, but it's an official power so we don't need to deal with it.

2. How does it interact with multi-normal attack powers, such as Hydra Heads, Flail Hurricane, Autocannons, and Two Heads are Better Than One? If adjacent, all such attacks must go on Dienekes or another figure with Combat Challenge as long as they remain adjacent.

3. How does it interact with Eagle Claw? Nothing special.

4. How does it interact with Lumbering Bully/WHOMP!? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Knockback/Ramming? Nothing special.

6. How does it interact with Poison Weapons/Mortal Strike/Whetstone of Venom? Nothing special.

7. How does it interact with Maul/Lethal Sting/Venomous Sting? Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with Paralyzing Stare/Whip? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with Net Trip? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Life Drain/Life Transfer Aura/Sanguine Sword? Nothing special.

11. How does it interact with Bloodlust/Demonblade? Nothing special.

12. How does it interact with Tactical Switch? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Zombies Rise Again/Zombie Rises Again/Bloodborn Rising? Nothing special.

14. How does it interact with Reckless Second Swing? If Dienekes survives the first swing, the second swing must also target a figure with Combat Challenge.

15. How does it interact with powers that reduce defense dice? Nothing special.

16. How does it interact with Furious Wrath/Engorge? Nothing special.

17. How does it interact with Shocking Grasp/Breaching Scythe/Master's Strike? Nothing special.

18. How does it interact with Clear Shot? Nothing special.

19. How does it interact with Upgrade? Nothing special.

20. How does it interact with Finishing Blow? Nothing special.

21. How does it interact with Cling? Nothing special.

22. How does it interact with Lycanthropy? Nothing special.

23. How does it interact with Cleave/Skewer? Another figure can be affected by Cleave/Skewer, but the figure being attacked must be Dienekes or another with Combat Challenge if adjacent.

24. How does it interact with Taste of Blood? Nothing special.

25. How does it interact with Crushing Grasp? Nothing special.

26. How does it interact with Revenant's Tome? The figure resurrected by Revenant's Tome can ignore Combat Challenge.


Movement Power Checklist:

1. Does it allow leaving engagement attacks? No

2. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Moving a figure with Tether of Logos can trigger these powers.

3. How does it interact with Slippery? Figures moved by Tether of Logos can trigger Slippery.

4. How does it interact with Cyberclaw/Improved Cyberclaw? Figures affected by Cyberclaw cannot be moved by Tether of Logos.

5. How does it interact with Swirling Vortex? Tether of Logos ignores Swirling Vortex.

6. Is there any way the figure can be forced to end its movement on an illegal space? No

7. Is it a space-by-space move power, or a teleport-like place power? Teleport-like Is it clear in the power which one it is? Yes

8. How does it interact with bonus movement powers, such as Movement Bonding or Jandar's Dispatch? Tether of Logos can affect figures moved by bonus movement powers.

9. How does it interact with Shield Push? Tether of Logos can affect figures moved by Shield Push.

10. How does it interact with Maneuver? N/A

11. How does it interact with Steadfast? Steadfast can prevent the use of Tether of Logos.

12. How does it interact with Flying/Stealth Flying? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Levitation? Nothing special.


Triggered Power Checklist:

Movement Triggered Powers:

1. Can it force a figure to end its movement on an illegal space? No

2. Should all movement/placing powers trigger it? Consider Cling as well. They do trigger it, as long as the figure moves at least one space and ends its movement within range of Tether of Logos.

3. Can a figure that moves zero spaces trigger it? Figures do not have to declare they are moving zero until the attack phase. No

4. If triggered by a figure ending its movement, how does it interact with Swamp Water Tunnel/Water Tunnel/Leaping Assault? These are a bit tricky. Swamp Water Tunnel and Water Tunnel happen "immediately", which would happen before Tether of Logos. Technically both Water Tunnel and Tether would be triggered, but it seems natural that if the figure Tunnels away it would prevent Tether. R&Ced.

5. If triggered by a figure ending its movement, how does it interact with Barge Into Battle? As above, I would argue that "after moving and before attacking" would come after "ends its movement." Thus, Tether would be used before Barge into Battle, and could prevent its use. R&Ced.

All Your Pie
December 11th, 2019, 08:50 PM
Kon-Tar-Na is large, right? So we (luckily) don't need a ruling for how many spaces Tether of Logos adds to his movement.

Otherwise, I'm happy with making a blanket ruling that Tether activates before non-immediately "after moving" powers.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 10:52 PM
Kon-Tar-Na is large, right? So we (luckily) don't need a ruling for how many spaces Tether of Logos adds to his movement.
Ah yeah, that's right. Makes that easier.

lefton4ya
December 12th, 2019, 11:33 AM
Thanks Scytale. The "place" powers are always tricky in conjunction with "movement" powers. When you place using Tether of Logos, can it trigger Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Personally I would prefer NO as IMHO place does not equal move, but it has been argued the opposite on FAQs and Nakita Agents Book (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8600), so consensus would seem to be Yes for Tether of Logos as well.
The Nakitas get to roll for engagement strike if a figure is summoned, thrown, or otherwise placed adjacent to them.

:up: to editing

Scytale
December 12th, 2019, 11:42 AM
Thanks @Scytale (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=968) . The "place" powers are always tricky in conjunction with "movement" powers. When you place using Tether of Logos, can it trigger Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Personally I would prefer NO as IMHO place does not equal move, but it has been argued the opposite on FAQs and Nakita Agents Book (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8600), so consensus would seem to be Yes for Tether of Logos as well.
It was decided long ago that "place" = move. Anything that moves a figure on the board, by any means, is considered a "move." It can be a pain at times, but it is what it is.

The Long eared bat
December 13th, 2019, 12:44 PM
Voting to move him on to playtesting :up:

Scytale
December 13th, 2019, 05:52 PM
Voting to move him on to playtesting :up:
Hold on, not everything is resolved yet. Though it seems like people are ok so far with R&Cing the few tricky interactions. Waiting to see if anyone objects.

Pumpkin_King
December 31st, 2019, 03:06 AM
Bumping this.

The Long eared bat
January 26th, 2020, 10:19 AM
Voting to move him on to playtesting :up:
Hold on, not everything is resolved yet. Though it seems like people are ok so far with R&Cing the few tricky interactions. Waiting to see if anyone objects.

Doesn't look like anyone has any objections. Should we move onto the next stage?

Pumpkin_King
February 1st, 2020, 03:52 AM
It may be something that other Rules people would have to get their eyes on, maybe?

Scytale
February 1st, 2020, 12:15 PM
There are no other Rules people here.

Seeing no objections, I updated the Checklist with some R&Cs to cover the odd cases. This is ready for a vote to move on.

Pumpkin_King
February 1st, 2020, 02:02 PM
Derp. OF course.

All Your Pie
February 1st, 2020, 06:46 PM
Alrighty, proposing a vote for playtesting then. :up: from me.

I'll get the checklist link added to the OP.

The Long eared bat
February 2nd, 2020, 09:55 AM
:up:

Scytale
February 2nd, 2020, 11:58 AM
:up:

lefton4ya
February 3rd, 2020, 01:04 PM
:up:

All Your Pie
February 23rd, 2020, 08:12 PM
Let this sit for far too long, but that's 4 :up:s and enough for a pass to Playtesting.

Pumpkin_King
April 8th, 2020, 07:48 PM
I still think Dienekes should be a gladiator.

Flash_19
May 9th, 2020, 06:13 PM
410 Points
Map: Sacrifice (ARV Submission - hopefully this isn't a problem)
Glyphs: Wannok and Dagmar

Army 1: Raelin, Dienekes, 10th x3, Isamu
Army 2: Dividers x5, Spiderman

Which units survived?
Raelin - 2 life
Dienekes - 3 Life
10th Reg - Almost 2 Squads (7 figures)
Isamu

Game Overview:
The Game started with OM's being focused on Dividers on the one side (who attempted to slow roll) while Raelin, Dienekes, and 10th started to pod up on the Wannok side of the map. Raelin was on single hex height and Dienekes was adjacent to her, and they both stayed there the whole game. Dienekes was very helpful at drawing units away from attacking Raelin or attacking 10th, and bringing them to himself on level 1 where 10th could then rain bullets down on dividers who were engaged with him. This forced the Dividers to change tactics, and they stopped coming in close enough to be lassoed. Dividers had a couple good pushes, but ultimately got shredded by the 10th. And Spiderman essentially decided to die at the end without putting up any kind of a fight. Turns out 4 skulls is really good at killing stuff. :)

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Dienekes only had 1 OM placed on him the whole game. Tether of Logos activated 4 out of 6 times, and Combat challenge was utilized a number of times - preventing dividers from attacking 10th or Raelin. Gideon didn't do any direct damage to other units, but was key in supporting the other units.

Backed by Raelin, he blocked a number of attacks, and with 6 life and 4 defense, he already has very good survivability for a 90 point figure.


Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?
If you can find a good location to pod up (especially with Raelin), Dienekes can be well worth his points for the control he gives you, and the ability he has to cover Raelin. Based on my one game with him, it seems like a very potent combination if there is a good spot to pod up on the map close enough to the start zone for Raelin and Dienekes to get into position with an investment of 1 OM each. But, that might be more of a map problem than a unit problem. He's a fun unit (for the army running him), and is very useful. I felt like the Lasso was pretty balanced in terms of reliability, though bumping it up by 1 or 2 for the D-20 roll might be a good thing.

I can see him being paired with Raelin a lot - and 6 life, 6 defense can be tough to cut through. 4 Def feels right for him, but I might consider a drop to 5 life.

I think he'd be a deadly screen on a map with same level lava. :twisted:

flameslayer93
May 9th, 2020, 06:15 PM
Thanks for the test, Flash!

The Long eared bat
May 30th, 2020, 10:57 AM
Map: Flash fire
Points: 480
Glyphs: Wannok, Defense +1

Team 1: Dienekes, Marcus, 2x Romans, Airborne Elite, Capt. John Varan
Team 2: Velkhor, 3x Cutters, Guilty, Horned Skull Brutes

Game report: Goblins moved up with Velkhor to meet Romans + Marcus. Romans were forced to split up to keep up with Team 2's kill rate. Romans defended well and goblins were falling quickly (mostly cutters). Once the Brutes started hitting back Romans began to fall. Velkhor was only useful in helping goblins to put 2 wounds on Marcus who survived for a long time. Airborne dropped in round 4 did some important but 2 members died quickly due to speed of cutters. Velkhor's spirit went on Capt. John. Capt. John did a lot of damage with Battle Valor Special Attack which was aided by Dienekes' Tether of Logos. Guilty finished of Capt. John and got Dienekes down to 1 life. Dienekes couldn't reach the cutter on Wannock so Team 2 won.

Units that survived: 1 Goblin Cutter

How did tested unit do?: Dienekes was used as an endgame defender which worked well. He was also used to take 2 wounds from Wannok. He killed 1 Cutter and 1 Brute. Tether of Logos worked very well with Capt. John's Special Attack by boosting his movement and allowing him to disengage. Tether failed 3 times which were critical in protecting an Airborne and Capt. John, however if those Tethers were successful the outcome of the game probably would have favored Team 1.

capsocrates
June 10th, 2020, 10:17 PM
2020-06-09
Crumble, heat of battle Scraps format, featuring two treasure glyphs, the Glyph of Recall, and the Glyph of Healing

caps
125 Darth Maul (PM me for the card but I'll be putting it on 'Scapers later)
215 Dienekes
335 2x12th Caucasus Rifles
355 Marcu Esenwein

caps's 7yo
110 Minions of Utgar
290 1xTaelord the Kyrie Warrior
360 1xPhantom Knights

I set up a 12th pod on the highest ground available, surrounded by Dienekes and Maul, with Marcu on a solo height space nearby. My opponent places his Phantom Knights within reach of my pod, with the Minions of Utgar out of sight and Taelord nearby them.

My opponent won initiative and brought Taelord up to my pod with OM1. Dienekes rolled a 17 with Tether of Logos to pull Taelord next to him. Taelord rolled 2/3 and Dienekes rolled 1/4 to take a wound.
The 12th Caucasus Rifles were ineffective with my OM 2.
OM2 saw the Phantom Knights advance. I got a 11 on Tether of Logos against he first one to pull him adjacent and then kicked myself for not moving a Rifle away from Dienekes to give me another place to pull them to; he was maxed out at two pulls due to no good landing spaces. The first PK got 2/3 against Dienekes and he rolled 0/4. The next PK got 2/3 as well to kill a Rifle that had height and the last one got 3/3 to put 2 wounds on Darth Maul even though he had height; Sith Counterstrike did not trigger (got an 11). The Rifles then retaliated by killing two Phantom Knights.
OM3 saw Taelord fly to the glyph of Recall to bring back a Phantom Knight. Darth Maul force leaped over the pair of central pillars to land next to the Healing glyph and kill a Minion of Utgar.

My opponent won initiative again and activated the Minions of Utgar. The two remaining Minions swarmed Darth Maul, rolling 1/2 both times. Maul blocked the first one and got an 18 for Sith Counterstrike, but failed to block the second and took two wounds. The Rifles responded by shooting ineffectually at Phantom Knights.
My opponent's OM2 was on Phantom Knights. They both moved towards Darth Maul, but one of them landed in sight of Dienekes, who Tethered him over with a 17. The PK attacked him with 1/3 and he blocked it with 1/4. The other PK was not adjacent to any of my figures. My Rifles whiffed on their grenade for the Nth time but managed to kill a PK and then had no targets for their second normal attack.
My opponent then moved Taelord over to cover his last two squad figures by Darth Maul with his attack aura, but Dienekes Tethered him over to where he couldn't see them with a nat 20 on his Tether roll. Darth Maul took the healing glyph to heal himself and Dienekes of 1 wound each, then rolled 4/4 to kill the adjacent Minion of Utgar.

At this point it was 1 Phantom Knight and Taelord (with no wounds) against Darth maul (3 wounds), Dienekes (2 wounds), and 3 Rifles.

My opponent won initiative the third straight time.
His first OM was on the PKs, and was the only OM on them. The PK moved towards my Pod and Dienekes tethered him adjacent (with a 19) and took a wound from a 2/4 attack with a 1/4 defense roll. My Rifles were blocked on all of their attacks.
With OM2, Taelord attacked Dienekes 2/3 and was met with 1/4, giving Dienekes another wound. My Rifles finally got a grenade to go off against Taelord; although he took no wounds from it, he whiffed on a 3/4 attack and then only blocked1/2 against a 2/4 attack to get up to 4 wounds.
With his final OM, Taelord rolled 2/3 against Dienekes, who only rolled 1/4 to take yet another wound, bringing him to 5. Darth Maul stealth leaped adjacent to the Phantom Knight and rolled 3/4 against its 1/4 defense to kill it.

I finally got an initiative switch here and killed Taelord with my first OM on the Rifles.

Dienekes:
Never received an OM but went 5/6 on Tether rolls and took a lot of hits thanks to Combat Challenge

capsocrates
June 13th, 2020, 08:22 PM
2020-06-13
Crumble by Dignan, heat of battle Scraps format

caps
125 Jango Fett (imagine Calibrax the Kyrie Warrior, but swap the healing for a 1/game fireline; 2A/4D)
150 Drow Chainfighter
240 Dienekes
360 2x20th Maine Volunteers

caps's 7yo
100 2xWarriors of Ashra
180 1xVarkaanan Blade Dancers
260 1xMicroCorps Troopers
360 1xShades of Bleakewoode

Round 1: Dienekes takes wounds from Shades while the 20th Maine and Jango kill WoA, 2 Troopers, and a Blade Dancer

Round 2: Dienekes is soul devoured, a Shade brings back the dead Blade Dancer; the 20th Maine put a wound on Dienekes and kill two Blade Dancers; the last Blade Dancer kills a 20th Maine; Jango kills Dienekes

Remainder of the game for the curious:
Round 3: 20th Maine kill all 3 Shades, stealing OM1 and OM2; Jango Fett kills the last two MicroCorps troopers, stealing OM3

Round 4: Jango Fett kills a WoA; Blade Dancer safely disengages to put a wound on Jango Fett; Jango Fett disengages safely to pick up the Belt of Giant Strength, then forgets to attack (in an alternate reality he kills the nearest WoA); a WoA engages Jango and puts a wound on him; 20th Maine kill the WoA engaged with Fett

Round 5: WoA kill a Chainfighter and a 20th Maine; Jango engages the last Blade Dancer to use his Belt of Giant Strength and kills her on his second attack, stealing OMs 2 and 3; Jango kills the second-to-last WoA

Game is called

Dienekes:
hit Tether of Logos 4/4 times (moving 1 WoA away from the 20th Maine and moving 3 Shades of Bleakewoode away from Jango Fett)
blocked 2/3 hits from a Warrior of Ashra, 2/4
whiffed twice on 2/2 attacks from the Shades, taking 4 wounds
third Bleakewoode declined to attack (hoping to Soul Devour Dienekes next turn) and could not attack an adjacent 20th Maine thanks to Combat Challenge
my kid got a 20 on his first Soul Devour attempt! Dienekes switched sides
Combat Challenge forced Jango to attack him 3 times before killing him, instead of attacking the Shades that were next to him (Jango whiffed the first two attacks)

rolled 1/4 against a 2/3 roll from Jango Fett to die

--

Now that I've played him several times, I'm pretty impressed with Dienekes. He's nerfed by larger figures, obviously, but Tether of Logos + Combat Challenge is pretty awesome. I've never felt the need to put an OM on him, for whatever that is worth. Personally I think that's fine, and there are occasions where he'll warrant it. You might consider bumping his attack, though.

capsocrates
June 13th, 2020, 09:28 PM
Does Tether of Logos trigger when a Blade Dancer moves via Vault? Scytale

Scytale
June 13th, 2020, 11:01 PM
Does Tether of Logos trigger when a Blade Dancer moves via Vault? @Scytale (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=968)
If it Vaults to a different space, yes.

capsocrates
June 13th, 2020, 11:57 PM
If it Vaults to a different space, yes.
It didn't occur to me at the time how ambiguous I was being. I meant the Varkaanan Blade Dancers's Defensive Vault, in case that wasn't clear.

capsocrates
June 13th, 2020, 11:58 PM
2020-06-13
Rust and Ruin by Flash_19, Heat of Battle Scraps format

caps
125 Jango Fett
225 Sentinels of Grax
315 Dienekes
365 Tarn Viking Warriorsr

caps's 7yo
110 Varkaanan Greyspears
205 Arktos
365 2xVarkaanan Blade Dancers

Round1: Tarn Viking Warriors charge out and attack the Blade Dancers across the map, killing 2 of them; Greyspears advance on Jango's high ground, putting 2 wounds on him and 1 wound on Dienekes; Viking Warriors retaliate against the Greyspears, largely getting blocked, though one puts 4 wounds on Arktos; Blade Dancer dies leaving engagement with a Viking Warrior

Round2: Jango flies away from the melee and kills two Greyspears and Arktos with his Flame Thrower Special Attack; Blade Dancers kill a Tarn; Tarns kill a Greyspear; OM2 lost on Arktos; Sentinels of Grax activate Healing glyph to heal Jango and Dienekes and kill a Blade Dancer; last Greyspear dies leaving engagement with a viking (trying to get an angle on the Glyph of Recall)

Round3: Dienekes takes height to kill the penultimate Blade Dancer


Game is called.


Dienekes:
went 1/3 on Tether (moving a Blade Dancer away from Fett after it Vaulted next to him; failed to move a Blade Dancer that was approaching the height; failed to move a Blade Dancer that shifted position beside him)
blocked a Greyspear
rolled 1/5 defense against a 2/4 from an Arktos-boosted Greyspear
rolled 2/4 against a Blade Dancer to kill it (26.67 points)


Dienekes had a lower impact on this game. It happens for figures like him.

Scytale
June 14th, 2020, 12:34 AM
If it Vaults to a different space, yes.
It didn't occur to me at the time how ambiguous I was being. I meant the Varkaanan Blade Dancers's Defensive Vault, in case that wasn't clear.
Yeah, I guessed that. As long as it moves to a different space with its Vault move, it's like any other move. When any small or medium figure ends any move nearby, it can be grabbed.

Captain Stupendous
July 28th, 2020, 10:56 AM
Map: Custom
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/703748880726229035/737668862715232316/image0.jpg

Army 1: (L) Ozuul (190), Gorillitroopers x2 (210) 400 pts
Army 2: (J) Motley Max (135), Dienekes (90), 12th Caucasus Rifles x3 (180) 405 pts

Versions tested:

Ozuul
VALKRILL
OZUUL
Species Voidspawn
Unique Hero
Class Marauder
Personality Nihilistic
SIZE HEIGHT Huge 10

LIFE 8
MOVE 5 / BASIC 5
RANGE 1 / BASIC 1
ATTACK 6 / BASIC 7
DEFENSE 4 / BASIC 8

190 POINTS

GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, Ozuul may use Gravity Pull. One at a time, each non-adjacent small or medium figure within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul must be placed by its owner on any empty space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. Figures moved with Gravity Pull do not take any leaving engagement attacks, but non-flying figures will take any falling damage that may apply. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use Crushing Vortex Special Attack.

CRUSHING VORTEX SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 4.
All figures adjacent to Ozuul are affected by Crushing Vortex Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

Dienekes
JANDAR
Dienekes
Human
Unique Hero
Fighter
Resolute
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 6
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 4

POINTS 90

Tether of Logos
If a small or medium figure moves at least one space and ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, if it is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If the figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Combat Challenge
Figures engaged with (figure name) may only attack figures with the Combat Challenge special power.

Motley Max
NAME = MOTLEY MAX

GENERAL = VALKRILL
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = MUTANT
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WARHULK
PERSONALITY = MERCILESS
SIZE/HEIGHT = LARGE/6
BASE SIZE = D3 LARGE SINGLE/DEATHWALKER BASE

LIFE = 6
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 135

DREAD CHAIN GRAB 6
After moving and before attacking with Motley Max, you may choose up to two enemy small or medium figures within 3 clear sight spaces whose bases are no more than 6 levels above Motley Max's height or 6 levels below Motley Max's base. Roll the 20-sided die once for each figure. If you roll a 6 or higher, place that figure on any empty same-level space adjacent to Motley Max. If the chosen figure is engaged when it is moved by Dread Chain Grab 6, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

ENGAGEMENT STRIKE 13
If an opponent's small or medium figure moves adjacent to Motley Max, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, the opponent's figure receives a wound. Figures may only be targeted as they move into engagement with Motley Max.

Which units survived? Three Gorillitroopers and Isamu.

Turn by turn summary
R1
T1 Ozuul advances
T1 J advances Rifles. Misses grenade, but both attack Ozuul from height and deal 3 wounds.

T2 L advances Ozuul. Pulls 1 Caucasus. Fails the special attack.
T2 J misses grenade, then attacks with Rifles. Ozuul blocks first attack. Rifles roll four skulls with second attack to deal 2 wounds to Ozuul.

T3 L uses Gravity pull to pull the other russian adjacent. Gravity crush kills both.
T3 J Advances two more Russians. Misses grenade. Both attacks on Ozuul are blocked.

ROUND 2

T1 J advances rifles. Misses grenade. Deals 1 wound to Ozuul with normal attack.
T1 L Ozuul pulls both grenades. Whiffs gravity crush.

T2 J succeeds gas grenade. Deals 1 wound to Ozuul with normal attacks
T2 L Ozuul kills both russians with Gravity crush

T3 J advances Max
T3 L Advances Ozuul to engage Max. Rolls 3 skulls with normal, but is blocked by Max on height.

ROUND 3

T1 J Moves Max around to central height and attacks Ozuul rolling three skulls. BUT OZUUL BLOCKS WITH 3 SHIELDS TO STAY ALIVE!
T1 L moves Ozuul around to get height and attack Max from Height. Deals 3 wounds to Max.

T2 J Max kills Ozuul.
T2 L Gorrillitroopers both miss ranged autocannons on Max.

T3 Max pulls one gorilla. Fails engagement strike and fails to pull the other gorilla. Normal attack is blocked by gorilla.
T3 L Gorillas attack Max four times with autocannons to deal 3 wounds to Max for the kill.

ROUND 4

T1 J advances his final two russians around the west to get in range of the gorilla. Succeeds grenade. They kill him with their normal attack.
T1 Gorillas kill 1 russian. Miss the other one.

T2 J gets the russian onto height. Misses grenade. Normal attack is blocked by gorilla.
T2 L engages russian with two gorillas and kills him

T3 Dienekes advances but doesn’t have enough move to engage a gorilla
T3 Gorillas attack Dienekes three times from height range to deal 1 wound to Dienekes

ROUND 5

T1 J advances Dienekes engaging 1 gorilla. Misses attack
T1 L attacks Dienekes twice with gorilla melee attacks to deal 4 wounds.

T1 J attacks with Dienekes and is blocked by Gorilla
T2 Gorillas kill Dienekes with their normal attacks for the win.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Ozuul dealt 3 wounds to Motley Max with his normal attack, and killed 4 Caucasus rifles with his special attack.

Motley Max rolled for chain grab twice, only succeeding once. He rolled for engagement strike once and failed. With his normal attack he dealt one wound to Ozuul and killed one Gorillitrooper.

Dienekes never rolled for Tether of Logos and failed to deal any wounds to any figures.

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

Ozuul Thoughts
Despite receiving 5 wounds during the first two turns of the game (a result of me miscounting the 12th caucasus threat range), Ozuul went on to still kill about ~180 pts worth of figures (4 Caucasus and three wounds on Max). The wounds on Max were crucial in weakening him enough for the Gorillitroopers to finish him off with minimal casualties. Overall I’m happy with this version of Ozuul. I think he’s somewhat difficult to use effectively, but that makes for a fun design with a high skill ceiling. If anything were to change, I think I’d like to try Ozuul out with 6 move instead of 5. In both games I’ve played with him, there have been several times that I’ve needed one more movement point to get within the optimal positioning to use Gravity Pull. However, he still definitely works fine with the five move; it's just a possible dial to tweak if he seems to be underperforming.

Dienekes Thoughts
Dienekes didn’t do much at all this game. J waited until the rest of his army was dead before putting any order markers on him. Since I led with Ozuul, Tether of Logos wouldn’t have been effective at defending the Caucasus anyway. I think Dienekes also requires more skill than many other figures to get value out of, and I don’t think J used him optimally this game.

Motley Max Thoughts
I think Max is in a relatively good place. I don’t necessarily think an adjustment to his engagement strike roll is necessary, although I also don’t think the change will be hugely impactful either way. I was expecting him to do more damage to the Gorillitroopers than he did, as in theory that’s kind of an ideal matchup for him (extremely high cost medium squad figures). However, Ozuul was able to get in a solid hit on him before dying, so that the Gorillitroopers were able to finish Max off before he was able to wreak too much havoc. He’s a very fun unit and J mentioned specifically that he really liked the design (I think the theme and sculpt helped here too).

Captain Stupendous
July 30th, 2020, 01:33 PM
Map: Custom
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/703748880726229035/737781030085460038/image0.jpg

Army 1: (L) Dienekes, Zettian Infantry x2, Hoplitron, Deathwalker 9000
Army 2: (J) Cathar x2, Raymond, Major Q10, Isamu

Which units survived? Major Q10 with 1 life remaining, 8 Cathar, Count Raymond with full life, and Isamu.

Turn-by-turn summary
ROUND 1
T1 Dienekes advances.
T1 Q10 advances and deals 2 wounds to Dienekes with normal attack.

T2 9000 deals 2 wounds to Q10 with his normal attack. Infantry advance.
T2 Q10 rolls 5 skulls to kill 9000

T3 Infantry deal 1 wound to Q10
T3 Q10 kills 2 infantry with wrist rockets and takes height.

ROUND 2
T1 Dienekes engages Q10 and his attack is blocked.
T1 Q10 deals 1 wound to Dienekes with wrist rockets.

T2 Dienekes attack on Q10 is blocked.
T2 Cathar deal 3 wounds to Dienekes for the kill.

T3 Infantry attack Q10 and two cathar. All attacks blocked.
T3 Cathar kill two infantry

ROUND 3
T1 Cathar kill 1 infantry
T1 Hoplitron charges a cathar and impales himself on a braced spear.

T2 Cathar moves onto a glyph and falls into a pit trap. The other two kill the last infantry.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Dienekes basically didn’t do anything this game, as he and the rest of my army were destroyed by Q10s initial and devastating assault.

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

Not much to comment on. This was my first game using Dienekes in my army and he didn’t get much of a chance to shine.

Captain Stupendous
July 30th, 2020, 01:38 PM
Map: Custom
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/703748880726229035/737781030085460038/image0.jpg

Army 1: (L) Dienekes, Varkaanan Quickblades, Varkaanan Greyspears, Arktos
Army 2: (J) Herakles, Marro Stingers x2, Marro Warriors, Dumutef Guard, Isamu

Which units survived? Three Quickblades, two Greyspears, full life Arktos

ROUND 1
T1 L Dienekes advances
T1 J advances stingers. Stingers deal 4 wounds to Dienekes (two attacks from height).

T2 L Advances greyspears. Only one stinger in range. Greyspears kill it.
T2 J Stingers attack three greyspears. All attacks are blocked.

T3 L Greyspears kill two stingers.
T3 J Heracles advances, then takes another turn with X. Attack against Greyspear misses.

ROUND 2
T1 J Heracles kills Greyspear he’s engaged with. X on Heracles. Engages greyspear and misses attack.
T1 L Greyspears. Arktos repositions and attacks Heracles but is blocked. Greyspears deal 3 wounds to Heracles with normal attacks.

T2 Heracles attacks a Greyspear, but the Greyspear rolls three shields to survive!
T2 L Arktos deals 1 wound to Herakles. Greyspears deal 1 wound to Herakles.

T3 J Marro warriors advance one to reveal glyph and claim common attack +1. Two attacks on Greyspears are blocked. They kill one Greyspear and deal 2 wounds to Dienekes to kill him.
T3 L Quickblades all engage Herakles and deal 1 wound with Lightning slash special.

ROUND 3
T1 L Arktos deals 1 wound to Herakles. Greyspears deal 1 wound to Herakles for the kill. The last Greyspear attacks and kills a Marro Warrior.
T1 J reveals order Marker on dead Herakles

T2 L Quickblades engage and kill the last three Marro Warriors
T2 J reveals OM on dead Marro Warriors

T3 L Quickblades kill two stingers.
T3 J J reveals OM on dead Marro Warriors

Round 4
T1 Quckblades kill Dumutef Guard. Attack on stinger is blocked. Greyspears kill the last stinger.
T1 J Isamu runs toward glyphs
T1 Greyspears kill Isamu

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Despite dying relatively early in the game, Dienekes had a bit more of an impact this time around. Several times J was forced to position Herakles suboptimally to avoid being caught by Tether of Logos. Ultimately, though, J was still able to play around Dienekes relatively easily, and the day was won thanks to the Varkaanan Grayspears (and poor attack rolls by Herakles) more than anything else.

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

Dienekes still seems difficult to use effectively, but I’m looking forward to playing with him more.

flameslayer93
August 1st, 2020, 07:33 AM
It makes sense that a lone defender hero can't do much vs range. Thanks for the games Capt!

flameslayer93
September 6th, 2020, 11:21 PM
Playtest: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2416284&postcount=49



Thoughts from the game.

Dienekes: I did a poor job with using him, and feel that maybe drafting him will be in poor taste since he doesn't really counter heroes. Maybe next time I do a draft I'll throw in the AotV squads, so that he can maybe be a better roakblock. In this game, his tankiness just got blown open by Syvarris, greatly hindering his later effectiveness as cleanup.

flameslayer93
October 4th, 2020, 10:27 AM
Played a game (and part of one) last night with Dienekes...


Map: custom jungle heavy, fortress walls and roads.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/212410255848636416/762131627962400788/IMG_20201003_194627389.jpg?width=814&height=610

Armies:
Me

Dienekes
Hawthorne (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8579)
Thorgim (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8416) (Highlander Champion)
MacDirks (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8423) *3
500 points

vs


LoveElemental

MDG (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8687)
Isamu (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9616)
Otonashi (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=19544)
Imperium (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8581) x2
Romans (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8684) x2
500 points

Glyphs: D20+1 and Initiative+8


Game 1 was called after LE's third turn. Dienekes had Tethered MDG adjacent to him, and although MDG's attack was unsuccessful, a Roman Legionnaire had height+MDG's Soldier Attack Bonus to one-shot Dienekes with Thorgrim's Defense Bonus (:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: vs :noshield: :noshield: :noshield: :noshield: :noshield: ). This is important because it shows its important to think about where you're placing Dienekes. I wasn't able to Tether the offending Roman Legionnaire onto another space simply because the vicinity was quite hilly and there were no valid spots to place him. It also means that you have think about where you are moving bonding adjacency boosting units too.

The second game (with some slight SZ adjustments on both sides), was much more of a reasonable game.

I actively took more turns this time with Dienekes so that he would be a pain in the rear for LoveElemental, using his Combat Challenge to stall her forces on the very tight, obstacle heavy, map. By the time he went down, I was able to control the flow of her attacking Romans and Einar Imperium so that the MackDirks and Hawthorne could cut down the much more scattered Romans (in large part because Dienekes was able to Tether some of them out of Shield Wall formation, exposing their lackluster defense). As LE was bringing in her hard hitting (and dare I say, devilishly fast) Kyrie, I had retreated a 2-wound Thorgrim, and kept 4 of the MacDirks near him for a final siege against whatever LE had left. The game was called after MDG finally died after being attacked by several 4A MacDirks + Hawthorne and was left with a lone EI. Any movements she could reasonably make would have been met by a MacDirk and/or Hawthorne getting the first attack.

Notably, I had control of Lodin and she didn't realize that the Einar Imperium had Double Attack at first. Even if she had, I think the game would have been about the same result. Having that 3rd squad of MacDirks was crucial to their attrition, and I feel that Dienekes preventing them being attacked in the early game played a large part to that.

Survivors: 2 Life Thorgrim, Full Life Hawthorne, 5 MacDirks vs 3 Romans, 1 Imperium, and both Ninjas.

Thoughts on Dienekes:
Although after my last playtests I was somewhat soured on his relatively low life and defense for a Defender type unit, and would have suggested a life *or* defense bump or simply a price drop, the second game here really shows that Dienekes needs to be played well to get his value. And, unlike Defenders not named Tandros (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28051), you actually want to put OMs on him to get him into increasingly more uncomfortable positions against your opponent. I had deliberately left a double engagement with him in order to get him onto juicy even level spacing, and directly in the middle of the battlefield.

I would highly encourage further testing be done on relatively flatter maps, especially against slow to midspeed melee. While I don't see him as overtaking any other unit roles (despite some similarities to Tandros), I also don't know how great of a niche he will be carving against things other than slow to midspeed melee (and fast units like Vipers (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8411) don't care about Tether). However, I didn't test this Tether against units who get moves outside of their own normal one. I could see it being mildly useful against units like Kumiko (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=25327) or Quorik Warwitch (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=49160).

NecroBlade
October 18th, 2020, 01:34 PM
How does everyone feel about Tether working on both friendly and enemy units? It's always sat a little weird with me, and I think I figured out it's because it muddles his theme as a defender. We're also doing several movement powers (though none other that move friendlies in a positive way like this), and this always struck me as a place we could cut back complexity a little (ironically by adding a word). Just curious what others feel about why it is (or isn't) a necessary part of the power/theme/unit.

flameslayer93
October 18th, 2020, 02:48 PM
I honestly never remember to tether my own units as Dienekes.

Scytale
October 18th, 2020, 07:38 PM
How does everyone feel about Tether working on both friendly and enemy units? It's always sat a little weird with me, and I think I figured out it's because it muddles his theme as a defender. We're also doing several movement powers (though none other that move friendlies in a positive way like this), and this always struck me as a place we could cut back complexity a little (ironically by adding a word). Just curious what others feel about why it is (or isn't) a necessary part of the power/theme/unit.
It was a way to make him seem more exciting to some members of the Pod that didn't think the design was very useful. While it significantly increases the unit's utility, it certainly isn't needed for his intended role.

lefton4ya
October 19th, 2020, 12:15 PM
As it stands there is nothing sopping you form doing to your own figures and the power having "you may roll..." means it is optional. I think it might be useful for your own figures but situational, but I see no reason to change to only working on opponent's figures.

Pumpkin_King
October 25th, 2020, 04:24 PM
It would be fun to include but not really required. Might be too complex for a MS, too.

NecroBlade
October 25th, 2020, 04:58 PM
As it stands there is nothing sopping you form doing to your own figures and the power having "you may roll..." means it is optional. I think it might be useful for your own figures but situational, but I see no reason to change to only working on opponent's figures.

I know it's optional. But "never remember to tether my own units" and "isn't needed for his intended role" aren't exactly ringing endorsements. My point is it might be better, especially for a Master Set, if the theme and function of the unit was simpler and clearer.