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All Your Pie
June 22nd, 2019, 02:22 AM
The Book of "Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite"

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/567009548041453579/567020547544711179/image0.jpg
(Not sure why he turned out sideways)

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VALKRILL
Velkhor
Demon
Unique Hero
Darklord
Tormenting
Medium 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 6
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 145

FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Velkhor rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

DEMON'S VULNERABILITY SPIRIT 2
When Velkhor is destroyed, place this figure on any unique army card. Velkhorís spirit subtracts 2 from the defense value on that army card.

FLYING

The figure used for this unit is Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite from Arena of the Planeswalkers Battle for Zendikar.


Editing: complete (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2342532&postcount=209).

Playtesting: Test 1 (Captain Stupendous) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2379490&postcount=255)
Test 2 (All Your Pie) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2379497&postcount=256)
Test 3 (All Your Pie) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2379505&postcount=257)
Test 4 (Captain Stupendous) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2380780&postcount=258)
Test 5 (Captain Stupendous) (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2381030&postcount=259)

Character Bio: TBA

-Rulings and Clarifications-
Q: If an opponent's Warforged Soldier rolls one shield for defense on its two dice, is it affected by Frailty Aura?
A: Yes. Warforged Resolve adds one shield to the roll, so effectively two shields are rolled. Frailty Aura would remove one of them.

Q: If an opponent's Sentinel of Jandar rolls one shield for defense, is it affected by Frailty Aura?
A: No. The Sentinel only rolled a single shield, even though it blocks two hits. Similarly, if the Sentinel rolled two shields, one would be removed by Frailty Aura, which would reduce the roll from four blocks (from two shields) to two blocks (from one shield).

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 02:21 PM
An idea from the discord was a warlord with a Melee Attack aura, IIRC.

flameslayer93
June 22nd, 2019, 02:36 PM
Yep!

I suggested a ProtoKyrie design, and a Demon Warlord of some sort is also a good option.

Flash_19
June 22nd, 2019, 04:07 PM
An idea from the discord was a warlord with a Melee Attack aura, IIRC.

I like both of those ideas. Would that be for any melee unit? Or Would there be other stipulations?

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 04:21 PM
Probably just exactly Finn's ability.

All Your Pie
June 23rd, 2019, 12:04 AM
Since heís been voted in to the next pod, Iíll throw my thoughts for Ob Nixilis here.

Atrixus
Valkrill

Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 4
Points: ???

Demon
Unique Hero
Darklord (maybe???)
Tormenting
Medium 5

Misfortune Aura
Whenever an opponentís figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Atrixus rolls defense dice, you may force them to re-roll all dice once.

Flying

I like having this guy be some kind of cheerleader, especially since we arenít going with a Kyrie Warrior for Avacyn.

Here's the rough design draft I posted in the Pre-Brainstorming thread a while back. This doesn't have to be our direction, but in general I'm not a fan of the warlord suggestion. If we're going Demon, I would much rather make a Darklord for the Badru than another Warlord for the Romans. Attack Aura is also not a power that would come into play much within the master set itself, as it's quite hard to set up between units that don't bond with each other. Having that be the entire point of the card might make a decent bonding unit but won't give us something that's playable in this set.

The kyrie suggestion is interesting, but I would rather the unit not bond at all if we go that route. Additionally, I think Kyrie would be fine as a race--Azazel from C3V already establishes that corrupted or evil Kyrie can look pretty messed up, so I don't think we would need to tack something on to the species to explain it.

superfrog
June 23rd, 2019, 04:30 AM
For my 2 cents, him having a tail rules out Kyrie entirely.

Pumpkin_King
June 23rd, 2019, 11:32 AM
Okay, I like that one a lot. Misfortune aura is good, as is Darklord. Could make him relentless, as well. Re-rolling dice with the DKs sounds really good.

I’m ambivalent on Kyrie/Demon. I could see him as a corrupted Kyrie, but if it trips other people enough it’s simple enough to make him a demon.

lefton4ya
June 24th, 2019, 12:50 PM
Ditto to Pumpkin_King and therefore All Your Pie - like negative aura and making Relentless Darklord for Wolf synergy.

I think for a spirit it would be cool if it was a "Negative" spirit you put on opponent. It would go well thematically with a negative aura. Can't think of a good name though.
[DEFEATED] ATTACK SPIRIT 1
When [ON] is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. [ON]’s Spirit subtracts 1 from the normal attack number on that card.

Captain Stupendous
June 24th, 2019, 01:08 PM
Ditto to Pumpkin_King and therefore All Your Pie - like negative aura and making Relentless Darklord for Wolf synergy.

I think for a spirit it would be cool if it was a "Negative" spirit you put on opponent. It would go well thematically with a negative aura. Can't think of a good name though.
[DEFEATED] ATTACK SPIRIT 1
When [ON] is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. [ON]ís Spirit subtracts 1 from the normal attack number on that card.

For a negative spirit, I think the name "Cursed Attack Spirit" could work, or some variation thereof.

The Long eared bat
June 24th, 2019, 01:22 PM
Ditto to Pumpkin_King and therefore All Your Pie - like negative aura and making Relentless Darklord for Wolf synergy.

I think for a spirit it would be cool if it was a "Negative" spirit you put on opponent. It would go well thematically with a negative aura. Can't think of a good name though.
[DEFEATED] ATTACK SPIRIT 1
When [ON] is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. [ON]ís Spirit subtracts 1 from the normal attack number on that card.

I like this. Gives him the feel of evil Finn and Thorgrim rolled into one.

All Your Pie
June 24th, 2019, 03:44 PM
Iím ambivalent on adding in a negative spirit power. Itís a cool mechanic and implementation, but if weíre already using a fairly potent cheerleading ability than it may be a bit much. It does force some decision-making on the opponentís part, though, which I kind of like.

For a name, something like Weakness Spirit or Weakening Curse would work.

Pumpkin_King
June 24th, 2019, 03:46 PM
Yeah, I like the idea of a spirit downgrade, but we would then have to seriously consider one power or the other.

Scytale
June 24th, 2019, 07:39 PM
That thing looks so much like an Utgar Kyrie that I almost don't see the tail. The tail is a problem, though.

Even without calling him a Kyrie, the look and the strong color scheme scream Utgar. I may just hardvote against if the design has anything else.

I like the concept of Misfortune Aura, though I dislike the power name for an intimidating figure like this. I'd prefer something like Dominance.

I actually do like mixing a cheerleading power with the negative spirit idea. That gives the opponent the hard choice of whether or not to kill him off. That does, however, require that the two negatives be relatively even in power level. Without that the choice goes away, but even then I kind of like that it still puts pressure on the opponent.

I'm against making him a Warlord, unless he lacks a cheerleading power entirely, or one that would also negatively affect his bonders. Darklord is better, if we want to go the synergy route.

flameslayer93
June 24th, 2019, 10:26 PM
That thing looks so much like an Utgar Kyrie that I almost don't see the tail. The tail is a problem, though.

Even without calling him a Kyrie, the look and the strong color scheme scream Utgar. I may just hardvote against if the design has anything else.


Protokyrie solves the tail issue. Cavemen didnít look exactly like humans, so why couldnít a cave-kyrie look somewhat different? Still hits that Kyrie theme without having to call him a Kyrie (unless you guys want to lump them in with Kyrie similar to Durgeth getting the big skulls-for-trophies guy). ;)

Iím mostly advocating the direction because its a Master Set and people like me would like to see some classic races in there if at all possible. :)

Scytale
June 24th, 2019, 11:00 PM
Protokyrie solves the tail issue.
I'm not a fan of Protokyrie. Valhallan Hybrid?

flameslayer93
June 24th, 2019, 11:23 PM
Protokyrie solves the tail issue.
I'm not a fan of Protokyrie. Valhallan Hybrid?

That could work.

The Long eared bat
June 25th, 2019, 06:40 AM
What if we just give [OB] the aura and save the negative spirit for maybe Sorin.

lefton4ya
June 25th, 2019, 11:16 AM
Actually I think the Negative Spirit is one of the best ideas I've had (not saying its the greatest idea ever - I'm sure there are customs on the site with them that were made when only RotV was out). This alongside a negative aura makes it really give pause to opponent on whether to kill the unit first. Maybe they would change their strategy to use Unique Squads or Heroes without a special attack first and only kill [ON] after they are mostly dead as the Spirit does the most damage to Unique units with multiple normal attacks. But for the player this allows the unit to use the full aura most of the game, unlike Raelin or Taelord who are usually targeted pretty quickly.

The negative aura should be slightly better than the negative Spirit, and I think making people rereoll defense die is one of those that is sometimes powerful and sometimes not so I think is good to pair, plus I like it makes you think about it - I.E. if a hero rolls 2 shields out of 4 when you get 3 skulls - do you take the one wound or make them reroll hoping for more but possibly get screwed? The only thing I am not sure of if Aura of 4 is too good but I with this aura and spirit the unit should probably cost 120-140 or so (on par with or better than Raelin 2.0)

My :2cents: but I think pairing a negative aura with a negative spirit is totally a "Heroscape thing" and seems perfect counter to Finn/Thorgrim and this master set's version of Raelin.

All Your Pie
June 25th, 2019, 03:44 PM
Itís tough to know how powerful Misfortune aura is given that it works a bit differently from most other auras. Forcing a reroll is decently powerful but having to keep the enemy within range is a lot trickier to do than keeping your units in range. That being the case, a combination of aura and negative spirit power could actually work here, though I would probably bring down the stats from my initial writeup from 4/4 to 3/3 to ensure that he doesnít also end up as a decent beatstick.

For species and class, Iím only interested in Darklord if this figure ends up as a Demon. I think it would be strange to give a Kyrie a synergy class when all the rest of them just get Warrior.

Fakeraistlin
June 25th, 2019, 07:59 PM
I’m ambivalent on adding in a negative spirit power. It’s a cool mechanic and implementation, but if we’re already using a fairly potent cheerleading ability than it may be a bit much. It does force some decision-making on the opponent’s part, though, which I kind of like.

For a name, something like Weakness Spirit or Weakening Curse would work.

Nice mechanic .... Maybe saved...for Jura see my post there.....

Ditto for theme being demon...Darklord,relentless and jinx abilities, do you think he would be overpowered to bond...vakrill undead or demon kind?

Captain Stupendous
June 25th, 2019, 08:22 PM
Iím ambivalent on adding in a negative spirit power. Itís a cool mechanic and implementation, but if weíre already using a fairly potent cheerleading ability than it may be a bit much. It does force some decision-making on the opponentís part, though, which I kind of like.

For a name, something like Weakness Spirit or Weakening Curse would work.

Nice mechanic .... Maybe saved...for Jura see my post there.....

Ditto for theme being demon...Darklord,relentless and jinx abilities, do you think he would be overpowered to bond...vakrill undead or demon kind?

If he's a Darklord (which I'm personally in favor of) then he already gets bonding with the Wolves of Badru, so I don't think adding additional valkrill undead or demon bonding would be necessary or mechanically clean.

I also like the idea of giving him a negative aura, but I'm not sure about whether I like forcing opponents to reroll defense. For one thing, new players (who this set is aiming to appeal to) could be confused as to how the timing works. New players could potentially think that attack and defense are supposed to be rolled simultaneously, and thus the defender should choose whether or not to reroll before seeing the attacker's roll. I recognize that this interpretation is probably unlikely, but its still something I'd rather avoid entirely.

Also, I wonder how much rerolling multiple defense rolls per turn would slow down the game... I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the reason Andask's Orb of Vengeance can only be used once per turn.

NecroBlade
June 25th, 2019, 11:17 PM
Negative aura and negative spirit sounds cool! (Incidentally, the Lantern Geists (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55797) could shake him off in their current state. :ponder:) Could "borrow" Gothok's power and make it Utgar:

AURA OF ANGUISH
All figures within 4 clear sight spaces of OB roll 1 less defense die. Figures that follow Utgar are not affected by Aura of Anguish/Misery/Sorrow.


Also, I wonder how much rerolling multiple defense rolls per turn would slow down the game... I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the reason Andask's Orb of Vengeance can only be used once per turn.
From what I recall it was more about power level on multi-attackers, but yeah slowing down the game too much would be no good.

Jaur0n
June 26th, 2019, 10:12 PM
I like the negative spirit power idea.


What if he prevented units near him from being targeted by ranged units or reduce ranged attack dice as an aura? I'm not sure if that power exists already for a support unit?

Fakeraistlin
June 28th, 2019, 11:00 PM
Negative aura and negative spirit sounds cool! (Incidentally, the Lantern Geists (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55797) could shake him off in their current state. :ponder:) Could "borrow" Gothok's power and make it Utgar:

AURA OF ANGUISH
All figures within 4 clear sight spaces of OB roll 1 less defense die. Figures that follow Utgar are not affected by Aura of Anguish/Misery/Sorrow.


Also, I wonder how much rerolling multiple defense rolls per turn would slow down the game... I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the reason Andask's Orb of Vengeance can only be used once per turn.
From what I recall it was more about power level on multi-attackers, but yeah slowing down the game too much would be no good.


Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar? Also Anguish never lowers defense to 0?

flameslayer93
June 29th, 2019, 08:39 AM
Negative aura and negative spirit sounds cool! (Incidentally, the Lantern Geists (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55797) could shake him off in their current state. :ponder:) Could "borrow" Gothok's power and make it Utgar:

AURA OF ANGUISH
All figures within 4 clear sight spaces of OB roll 1 less defense die. Figures that follow Utgar are not affected by Aura of Anguish/Misery/Sorrow.


Also, I wonder how much rerolling multiple defense rolls per turn would slow down the game... I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the reason Andask's Orb of Vengeance can only be used once per turn.
From what I recall it was more about power level on multi-attackers, but yeah slowing down the game too much would be no good.


Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar? Also Anguish never lowers defense to 0?


Affecting Utgar is fine, imo. It does need to be thematicly implemented however. Not that Anguish would be thematic of course.

I'm not a fan of powers with a minimum restriction, it's always been an mathematical pain in the rear. Especially in competitive play when there are 8 people with different versions of the rules. ;)

NecroBlade
June 30th, 2019, 12:11 PM
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar?

I personally like the idea of mirroring Gothlok and not affecting units of his own general (does he really look like a guy who would have a "weaker" aura than Gothlok?), but this isn't my unit to design so if this group likes the idea, run with it in any direction you want. :)

Fakeraistlin
July 1st, 2019, 02:42 PM
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar?

I personally like the idea of mirroring Gothlok and not affecting units of his own general (does he really look like a guy who would have a "weaker" aura than Gothlok?), but this isn't my unit to design so if this group likes the idea, run with it in any direction you want. :)

I guess where I was going was, whats wrong with him NOT affecting is own units and only affecting enemies, faction doesn't factor in this. If it does why? Why can he despair his enemies regardless who he is drafted with?

flameslayer93
July 1st, 2019, 03:21 PM
Necroblade and all, whats your thinking about also making Aura of Anguish also affect Utgar?

I personally like the idea of mirroring Gothlok and not affecting units of his own general (does he really look like a guy who would have a "weaker" aura than Gothlok?), but this isn't my unit to design so if this group likes the idea, run with it in any direction you want. :)

I guess where I was going was, whats wrong with him NOT affecting is own units and only affecting enemies, faction doesn't factor in this. If it does why? Why can he despair his enemies regardless who he is drafted with?

Thematically and mechanically: nothing. :mrgreen:

Competitively, it hurts melee armies quite a bit more when he is sufficiently screened. While it can certainly be charged for, it is tricky territory because there will be some builds that are clearly better for this negative aura.

I donít have an issue with it though, Iím just pointing out that its a tricky thing to balance. ;)

lefton4ya
July 1st, 2019, 03:44 PM
Are we tied to aura that lowers defense? How about lowering attack instead? Also instead of limiting to Utgar we can make it just affect opponents. This goes with the idea of making this unit the AotP Master Set's version of Raelin (lowering opponent's attack by 1 is almost the same as increasing your defense by 1.5, although statisticians might disagree), is something different than Gothlok, and also goes great thematically with negative spirit.

I'd also wouldn't mind flipping the negative spirit to reduce defense instead of attack as it gives the opponent a choice on whether to keep attack low or lower defense, although either spirit give a tough choice and affects the opponent's strategy of who to attack against and with first. I would think this unit would cost 120 or more even at 3 defense and 5 life.

Life: 5
Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 4
Defense: 3

AURA OF ANGUISH
All opponent's figures within 4 clear sight spaces of [ON] roll 1 less attack die.

ANGUISH [ATTACK/DEFENSE] SPIRIT 1
When [ON] is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. [ON]’s Anguish Spirit subtracts 1 from the [defense/normal attack] number on that card.

FLYING

Scytale
July 1st, 2019, 03:50 PM
Are we tied to aura that lowers defense? How about lowering attack instead?
Attack-lowering is a viable design space, but a dangerous one. Lowered defense leads to a faster, more violent game. Lowering attack leads to a slower, more tedious game, and can be downright miserable at times. It's something that should be used exceedingly sparingly.

Astroking112
July 1st, 2019, 03:57 PM
I feel like it's worth pointing out that Gothlok is a Flagbearer, and as such was expected to both use Valkyrie Dice and have some kind of broad synergy for Valkrill (in this case, an exclusion to his penalty aura). Ob Nixilus looks very much like an Utgar figure, but I don't think they need to mirror each other if they go down a similar direction.

Having played around with an "Attack -1" aura on Masha Shingai (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2247212#post2247212), I would encourage treading carefully if going down that route. I ended up deciding to not only limit it to Common Squad figures, but also letting it impact your own units and require a revealed Order Marker on his card to be active. An unrestrained, non-penalizing, and always active version of the power would be considerably more powerful.

All Your Pie
July 1st, 2019, 04:08 PM
While I donít mind reusing powers and concepts, I feel like reusing a version of Gothlokís aura would cheapen both designs. This unit would certainly be different enough from Gothlok, but that aura is still the centerpiece of his design and it would feel a little odd to me to repeat it elsewhere. Plus, keeping the total number of stat lowering auras in the game to a minimum is probably a good idea simply to avoid unpleasant interactions with stacking them as much as possible.

I still prefer this guyís aura to be anti-defensive in some way for largely the reasons Scytale mentionedówhenever possible I prefer to design units that encourage fast offensive games, not slow defensive ones. If we donít want to do the defensive re-roll (although I donít personally feel it would slow down the game all that much) we could consider other options. Hereís an idea that popped into my head:

Aura of Frailty
Whenever an opponentís figure within 4 clear sigh spaces of (figure name) rolls defense dice, if they roll exactly the same amount of shields as the attacker rolled skulls, the defending figure receives a wound.

Demon Curse Spirit
When (figure name) is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. (Figure nameís) curse spirit subtracts 2 from the defense value on that card.

Fakeraistlin
July 2nd, 2019, 03:17 AM
[QUOTE=All Your Pie;2292581]While I donít mind reusing powers and concepts, I feel like reusing a version of Gothlokís aura would cheapen both designs. This unit would certainly be different enough from Gothlok, but that aura is still the centerpiece of his design and it would feel a little odd to me to repeat it elsewhere. Plus, keeping the total number of stat lowering auras in the game to a minimum is probably a good idea simply to avoid unpleasant interactions with stacking them as much as possible.

I still prefer this guyís aura to be anti-defensive in some way for largely the reasons Scytale mentionedówhenever possible I prefer to design units that encourage fast offensive games, not slow defensive ones. If we donít want to do the defensive re-roll (although I donít personally feel it would slow down the game all that much) we could consider other options. Hereís an idea that popped into my head:

Aura of Frailty
Whenever an opponentís figure within 4 clear sigh spaces of (figure name) rolls defense dice, if they roll exactly the same amount of shields as the attacker rolled skulls, the defending figure receives a wound.

Range 5? for aura?

All Your Pie
July 2nd, 2019, 03:26 AM
Small details like aura range can be tweaked as necessary as we move forward depending on what testing tells us. You may be right in that it's always going to be harder to keep enemy units in an aura than it is to keep your own in one, so a range expansion could compensate. The power as written is very strong though, and expanding the range would only make it stronger.

More than details like that, and this is true for every design in this pod, I'm interested in the directions people would like for these units based on the listed options. I think we've suggested plenty of ideas at this point, we just need to choose the best ones to move forward with. So far the aura/spirit combination seems pretty well supported here, so it's a matter of picking which version of those powers we want. The kyrie/demon distinction is a little less clearly defined, and I think we should decide on that as well since it could have synergy implications--I don't think we want to design a Kyrie Darklord for instance, as Darklord just isn't a class Kyrie have. I'm pretty much ambivalent on that part of the design--Demon is obvious and doesn't require leaps, but the figure also looks very Kyrie and the tail can be explained away as some sort of curse or affliction. Not that he's a good example, but it would be less of a leap than Marcu being a vampire.

The Long eared bat
July 2nd, 2019, 12:28 PM
I personally like the idea of him being a hybrid: half Demon half Kyrie. A negative spirit for defense is better if the aura is also defense based. I still prefer the defense re-roll aura because it adds something new and exciting to heroscape. I like the fact the power could work for or against you which adds to the hybrid theme. Also making him a darklord opens up some interesting synergy with the wolves with there pounce ability.

Ronin
July 2nd, 2019, 12:41 PM
Really dig the general direction being discussed here (negative aura, negative spirit).

I'd shy away from the re-roll aura (skimming a bit, but I've seen a couple people mention that) mainly because having to re-roll a lot of dice takes a long time to resolve. I think re-rolls might be fair game for a negative spirit that's only hitting one figure, but I wouldn't advise it on the aura.

The Long eared bat
July 2nd, 2019, 12:51 PM
Really dig the general direction being discussed here (negative aura, negative spirit).

I'd shy away from the re-roll aura (skimming a bit, but I've seen a couple people mention that) mainly because having to re-roll a lot of dice takes a long time to resolve. I think re-rolls might be fair game for a negative spirit that's only hitting one figure, but I wouldn't advise it on the aura.

It wouldn't take too long if the aura can only be used once per turn and Empress Kiova and Emperor Andask have a re-roll aura.

All Your Pie
July 5th, 2019, 02:52 AM
I kind of like Ronin's suggestion to make the Negative Spirit be the one that forces re-rolls.

I don't have a specific writeup I'd like in the OP here, just because we have so many different variants of the same basic ideas. If possible, though, I'd like everyone to bring up what their favorite options suggested so far for our three points of discussion are. Those points are:

Race: Demon or Kyrie
Negative Aura: Discuss options presented in this thread.
Negative Spirit: Discuss options presented in this thread.

For Race, I kind of like Demon for Darklord bonding. I feel like it will be otherwise impractical to actually keep his negative aura in effect.

For Negative Aura, I kind of like my Frailty Idea but it does also seem a little too powerful. This is maybe one point I feel we could use a little more brainstorming on as I don't think we've quite hit on something brilliant yet.

For Negative Spirit, I like a Spirit that can force a unique figure to re-roll their defense. Possibly their normal attacks also, if we want it to be particularly mean.

lefton4ya
July 5th, 2019, 12:27 PM
Warning: strong opinion to follow:

Master Set 1 has Raelin, who adds +2 Defense in 4 aura
Master Set 2 has Raelin, who adds +1 Defense in 6 aura
Master Set 3 has Ana K, who adds +1 Defense in 3 aura (small an medium figures against Utgar only)
Master Set 4 (AotP) HAS TO HAVE a figure that has a defense aura - or else IMHO its not a true Heroscape master set!!!

Ob Nixilis is a good opportunity to do this. We don't have to do with Ob Nixilis, but if not than another figure HAS to have a defensive aura, so we might has well do with him unless someone has a strong feeling another figure should have the defensive aura! With the precedent set by Ana Karithon, I'm OK with making ON have an "evil aura" where it only works on Utgar or Valkrill or against selected "good" generals, and/or other restrictions (heroes, size, etc). However I am also OK with an alternative to straight up Defense +1/2, such as re-rolling your defense dice or make opponent subtract or reroll attack die, as reducing opponent's attack is similar to adding defense. Frailty (or any auto-wound aura) is not considered this, however, so would not count as making this figure this master set's version of Raelin.

To stick with theme I think the aura should either add defense to only Utgar/Valkrill (maybe re-rolling defense dice would work) or negative attack aura that either subtracts attack or makes an opponent re-roll attack (we can also make it affect all figures except Utgar/Valkrill as opposed to specifying opponent's figures). As others have said re-rolling may increase game time and adds complications in wording (squads, multiple attack heroes, etc) so I lean towards a straight up -1 Attack aura, but with the right wording a reroll of your defense or opponent's attack would be OK.

As far as negative spirit, it should be less good than the aura in most circumstances but forces choices on opponent. We could do re-roll of defense as All Your Pie suggested or a straight up -1 Attack or -1 Defense.

For left box stats I agree with consensus of others to make Demon and have Wolves of Badru & Death Knights Bonding:
Demon
Unique Hero
Darklord
Relentless
Medium 5

Scytale
July 5th, 2019, 12:41 PM
Warning: strong opinion to follow:

Master Set 1 has Raelin, who adds +2 Defense in 4 aura
Master Set 2 has Raelin, who adds +1 Defense in 6 aura
Master Set 3 has Ana K, who adds +1 Defense in 3 aura (small an medium figures against Utgar only)
Master Set 4 (AotP) HAS TO HAVE a figure that has a defense aura - or else IMHO its not a true Heroscape master set!!!

Strong opinion of my own. Three does not a pattern make.

More than that, I am very much opposed to doing another defensive aura. Why? Because it stacks, and the girls listed above already exist. Also, defensive powers slow down games, and defensive auras even more so. I do not want to see a defensive aura in the set period.

Scytale
July 5th, 2019, 02:33 PM
Reroll for the negative spirit ability gets a little weird, for better or worse, depending on how you look at it. I assume the intent is that the owner of this unit to decide if the unit the spirit is on has to reroll defense. I would put it on my own unit to be able to reroll when needed. If I couldn't put it on my unit, I'd put it on my teammate's. If opponents only, I'd use it in FFAs to control the battle by helping and/or hurting an opponent's unit, likely mixed with diplomacy.

The simpler way we be to force rerolls of only rolled shields, though that's really strong.

The aura + negative spirit is a pretty good design concept. If so something wild with it myself. Something like:

Soul Decay Aura
Whenever a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks with a normal attack and no skulls are rolled, that figure receives 1 wound. If it is a figure you control, also remove 1 wound from this Army Card. <unit> is not affected by his own Soul Decay Aura.

Then to follow the theme, maybe:
Soul Decay Spirit
When <unit> is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Hero Army Card. After any player takes a turn with that unit, that player must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or less, that Hero receives a wound.

Not really Utgar, though (very Valkrill), which is what this unit should be if a Kyrie. The tail is problematic for that, though. Oddly, Hybrid is still my favorite option, though Demon isn't terrible.

I'm not opposed to bonding. Darklord is fine. It's worth knowing that Demon Bonding is currently in C3V pipeline as well.

Jaur0n
July 5th, 2019, 04:51 PM
I really like the idea of him becoming ranged hate while he is alive. Then the negative spirit once dead.


I'm going to put some thought into some specific ideas but something that creates a defensive aura against ranged attacks or prevents attacks to units within X spaces that are not adjacent or creates LOS issues for ranged attacks is what I was thinking. He goes with the melee units and allows them a way to cross the battlefield without getting shredded or relying heavily on LOS blockers. (There are maps I'd love to play but they don't have enough cover so I avoid them in favor of maps that provide plenty of LOS blockers to reduce how strong range is).

Fakeraistlin
July 7th, 2019, 01:03 AM
Reroll for the negative spirit ability gets a little weird, for better or worse, depending on how you look at it. I assume the intent is that the owner of this unit to decide if the unit the spirit is on has to reroll defense. I would put it on my own unit to be able to reroll when needed. If I couldn't put it on my unit, I'd put it on my teammate's. If opponents only, I'd use it in FFAs to control the battle by helping and/or hurting an opponent's unit, likely mixed with diplomacy.

The simpler way we be to force rerolls of only rolled shields, though that's really strong.

The aura + negative spirit is a pretty good design concept. If so something wild with it myself. Something like:

Soul Decay Aura
Whenever a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks with a normal attack and no skulls are rolled, that figure receives 1 wound. If it is a figure you control, also remove 1 wound from this Army Card. <unit> is not affected by his own Soul Decay Aura.

Then to follow the theme, maybe:
Soul Decay Spirit
When <unit> is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Hero Army Card. After any player takes a turn with that unit, that player must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or less, that Hero receives a wound.

Not really Utgar, though (very Valkrill), which is what this unit should be if a Kyrie. The tail is problematic for that, though. Oddly, Hybrid is still my favorite option, though Demon isn't terrible.

I'm not opposed to bonding. Darklord is fine. It's worth knowing that Demon Bonding is currently in C3V pipeline as well.

-For Race, I like Demon/Darklord bonding, following Vakrill.

I now prefer powers as described by Scytale since they would match his Darklord/Demon personality and the initial 'jinxing' power he had but with a darker power rather than just a trickster.

I like Soul Decay, with just a little tweak:
Soul Decay Aura
Whenever an enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks/defends and rolls all blanks that figure receives 1 wound.

-I like Soul Decay Spirit as it stands as described by Scytale.
(I think it would be overpowered, but I think it would be cool to make Soul Decay Spirit 'spread' to another enemy figure if the figure dies unless the figure 'sacrifices itself on a successful roll)

Astroking112
July 15th, 2019, 12:21 AM
In case anyone hasn't seen, the squad with a form of Demon Bonding in the pipeline over at C3V (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55956) was just put into Public Playtesting. It's not a finalized unit, but it should be helpful to pod members here in determining whether they want to avoid any Demon synergies with this design or not. One of the goals of AotV is to maintain compatibility with C3V and SoV, so I'd recommend at least taking a look to see what making Ob Nixilus a demon would entail.

All Your Pie
July 16th, 2019, 02:02 AM
I don't think I'm quite prepared to put together a complete design in the OP for this unit yet. We've seen a lot of good ideas, many of which could be what we go with, but none of them have built up much steam.

I think it is important for us to decide on species for this unit sooner rather than later, though. The types of aura we can put on a bonding unit are more limited than what we can do with a standalone unit, so weighing in on that should be a priority. I'm still fine with Demon myself. It seems like Hybrid is the strongest competing option though, which only comes with the much less dangerous Werewolf Lord synergy.

The Long eared bat
July 16th, 2019, 08:33 AM
My vote would be for Hybrid, Valkrill and something like

I like Soul Decay, with just a little tweak:
Soul Decay Aura
Whenever an enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks/defends and rolls all blanks that figure receives 1 wound.

and Scytale's idea

Then to follow the theme, maybe:
Soul Decay Spirit
When <unit> is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Hero Army Card. After any player takes a turn with that unit, that player must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or less, that Hero receives a wound.

He is also medium 6

Fakeraistlin
July 16th, 2019, 02:37 PM
My vote would be for Hybrid, Valkrill and something like

I like Soul Decay, with just a little tweak:
Soul Decay Aura
Whenever an enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks/defends and rolls all blanks that figure receives 1 wound.

and Scytale's idea

Then to follow the theme, maybe:
Soul Decay Spirit
When <unit> is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Hero Army Card. After any player takes a turn with that unit, that player must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or less, that Hero receives a wound.

He is also medium 6

Ooen to Hybrid because of new info about custom synergies with demonkind raised.

lefton4ya
July 17th, 2019, 12:21 PM
Looking at the C3V squad with its sacrificial bonding (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55956) I'm OK with keeping as Demon. To correlate, Taelord has quasi-bonding with Minions and although that is a decent army (in high point games) more people use Taelord without the Minions. However, if not than Hybrid or some other one is fine too.

I think for the spirit we should have a simple -1A or -1D (We all agreed (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55806) this set should have as many simple powers as we can). However although I would prefer the Aura to be simple as well (maybe negative Attack on opponent where there is Left-box stat restrictions, like a reverse of Ana Karithon's Protection from Evil Aura), I'd be Ok with a receiving wounds on some kind of whiff.

Fakeraistlin
July 17th, 2019, 05:55 PM
Looking at the C3V squad with its sacrificial bonding (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55956) I'm OK with keeping as Demon. To correlate, Taelord has quasi-bonding with Minions and although that is a decent army (in high point games) more people use Taelord without the Minions. However, if not than Hybrid or some other one is fine too.

I think for the spirit we should have a simple -1A or -1D (We all agreed (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55806) this set should have as many simple powers as we can). However although I would prefer the Aura to be simple as well (maybe negative Attack on opponent where there is Left-box stat restrictions, like a reverse of Ana Karithon's Protection from Evil Aura), I'd be Ok with a receiving wounds on some kind of whiff.

To differentiate from the viking heros from RotV I really like what was put forward from Scytale:

Soul Decay Spirit
When <unit> is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Hero Army Card. After any player takes a turn with that unit, that player must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or less, that Hero receives a wound.

The Long eared bat
July 18th, 2019, 03:58 AM
I am with Fakeraistlin on this.

lefton4ya
July 18th, 2019, 12:07 PM
I don't agree but see where you are all going and don't want to be too dissenting with The Long eared bat, Fakeraistlin, & Scytale. We can try testing with the suggested Soul Decay Spirit.

Let me give a wording to the Aura I would like, but if you all disagree and agree on another I'd be OK with too. Just remember I am thinking of this unit in light of all the other units in the set in keeping the set simple:
Aura of Frailty
All opponentís figures within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name) subtract 1 from their attack die when rolling attack dice against [a figure you control / a figure who follows Valkrill or Utgar].

The option of "figure you control" is a standard power, but maybe "a figure who follows Valkrill or Utgar" is more thematic, works in team games, forces you to have some army synergy, and makes it less powerful as you can't use this aura to protect Raelin, Finn/Thorgrim, and some other cheerleaders. Also note that since this power or even the suggested Soul Decay Aura (unlike Raelin) works on figured attacking [ON] maybe he should have 2 defense 5 life OR 3 defense 4 life.

Either way I like the theme coming along of he is frail but makes others frail. Sidenote that may cause too much theological debate, but that is literally what demons do! Demons who are angry cause others to be angry, demons who lust cause others to lust, demons who are fearful cause others to be fearful, etc. PM me or take discussion to another thread if you want Biblical or anecdotal proof of this.

Scytale
July 18th, 2019, 12:19 PM
I'm not a fan of reducing attack. It slows the game down and worse, makes it unfun for the opponent. In a range 4 aura? No way, certainly not unbounded.

Jaur0n
July 18th, 2019, 03:05 PM
Soul Decay Spirit seems cool.


I don't think I've seen a living aura idea I like much. I can't think of a simple range hate aura (what I'd really like to do with the aura) either.

lefton4ya
July 18th, 2019, 03:53 PM
OHH - Jaur0n not sure if it was a typo but you gave a great idea -what if the Aura reduced RANGE instead of ATTACK?
Aura of Frailty
All opponent’s figures with a range of 4 or more that are within [4/5/6] clear sight spaces of (figure name) subtract 2 from their RANGE when rolling attack dice against [a figure you control / a figure who follows Valkrill or Utgar].
Doesn't affect special attacks so their are ways around it, and not quite as good as being on the Thorian glyph, but can protect a lot of your units from ranged attack, and would especially help melee units to be able to get to attack first, and adds some strategic placement requirements. I think this aura is more powerful it the aura was 5 or 6 spaces, but might have to playtest to see the right aura range.

Scytale
July 18th, 2019, 04:02 PM
OHH - @Jaur0n (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=47395) not sure if it was a typo but you gave a great idea -what if the Aura reduced RANGE instead of ATTACK?
Interesting, though difficult to use. This fellow would have to be way out in front to make a difference, and he would be the target of the attacks then. It would work as a unique defender unit.

Jaur0n
July 18th, 2019, 04:30 PM
lefton4ya - I like the concept. What if we take it even further, and say all units within X of him have a range of 1 (or leave it -2 but make it all units, including your own). Then consider giving this unit stealth dodge or something to make it hard to range this unit down to Scytale's point? I don't know if adding something like stealth dodge leaves no room for the death ability (which I don't want to lose).


Basically this dude can make all range's life difficult, even your own if you don't place him well.

All Your Pie
July 18th, 2019, 05:53 PM
I don't know if I'm completely sold, but it can easily work thematically. Something like...

Veil of Darkness
(Opponent's) figures within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name) may not make normal attacks against non-adjacent figures.

My main concern is that, in certain matchups, this will remove the tension of the aura/spirit combination. Melee armies would have no reason to attack him. However, I do think this aura would work well for a Demon/Darklord design. Less so for a Hybrid, where the lack of bonding would make the aura very tough to use.

I like Soul Decay Spirit well enough. How necessary do we feel the Unique Hero restriction is? If we wanted, we could allow him to go on any army card and use wording similar to Wannok, where the card's controller must choose a figure from that army card to receive a wound.

Fakeraistlin
July 18th, 2019, 10:30 PM
I don't know if I'm completely sold, but it can easily work thematically. Something like...

I like Soul Decay Spirit well enough. How necessary do we feel the Unique Hero restriction is? If we wanted, we could allow him to go on any army card and use wording similar to Wannok, where the card's controller must choose a figure from that army card to receive a wound.

Curse the squad? Not too overpowered? The curse could occur after they act:

Soul Decay Spirit
When <unit> is destroyed, you may place it on any Army Card. After taking turn with units from that army card that player must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or less, all units part of that army card receive a wound.

All Your Pie
July 18th, 2019, 10:37 PM
Oh no, definitely not all units. I'm thinking something more like:

Soul Decay Spirit
When (figure name) is destroyed, you may place this figure on any army card. (before or after) any player takes a turn with that army card, they must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or lower, they must choose a figure from that army card to receive a wound.

Fakeraistlin
July 18th, 2019, 10:42 PM
I don't know if I'm completely sold, but it can easily work thematically. Something like...

Veil of Darkness
(Opponent's) figures within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name) may not make normal attacks against non-adjacent figures.

My main concern is that, in certain matchups, this will remove the tension of the aura/spirit combination. Melee armies would have no reason to attack him. However, I do think this aura would work well for a Demon/Darklord design. Less so for a Hybrid, where the lack of bonding would make the aura very tough to use.

I like Soul Decay Spirit well enough. How necessary do we feel the Unique Hero restriction is? If we wanted, we could allow him to go on any army card and use wording similar to Wannok, where the card's controller must choose a figure from that army card to receive a wound.

I like this aura power but I'm still sold on the complementary match up suggested by Scytale, Whiff of Death a.k.a Soul Decay Aura, especially with the tweak I suggested:

"Soul Decay Aura v2
Whenever an enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks or defends and rolls all blanks that figure receives 1 additional wound.

TREX
July 19th, 2019, 01:31 AM
I just read in on the conversation here and had an interesting take pop into my head. So if you guys would humor me Ill throw my pennies and run away. With this guy having an aura of hatred or something to that affect, what if he made all figures within X spaces attack with a plus one and subtracted 1 from defense. You could make an exception to some figures if you wanted as the likes of gothloks exception of valkrill losing defense. Alright. Im running away now. Look forward to the discussion.

The Long eared bat
July 19th, 2019, 01:00 PM
What do people want: Demon, Hybrid, Kyrie or other.
My preference is either Demon or Hybrid.
An idea for a name could be Pazuzus. Pazuzu was a demon in ancient Mesopotamian religion, He was the bearer of storms and drought. Often depicted with his right hand up and left hand down same as Ob nixilis.

Fakeraistlin
July 20th, 2019, 12:16 AM
What do people want: Demon, Hybrid, Kyrie or other.
My preference is either Demon or Hybrid.
An idea for a name could be Pazuzus. Pazuzu was a demon in ancient Mesopotamian religion, He was the bearer of storms and drought. Often depicted with his right hand up and left hand down same as Ob nixilis.

Demon for me

Scytale
July 20th, 2019, 12:38 AM
I think Hybrid is clever, in both a good and a bad way. Hybrids don't always have to be half human, right?

Demon is my second choice.

All Your Pie
July 20th, 2019, 01:31 AM
I just read in on the conversation here and had an interesting take pop into my head. So if you guys would humor me Ill throw my pennies and run away. With this guy having an aura of hatred or something to that affect, what if he made all figures within X spaces attack with a plus one and subtracted 1 from defense. You could make an exception to some figures if you wanted as the likes of gothloks exception of valkrill losing defense. Alright. Im running away now. Look forward to the discussion.

The idea of an attack buff that works for both allies and enemies is interesting. On it’s face, the easiest way to use it would be to pod up with range, but we could restrict it to melee attacks fairly easily.

I also like the whiff punish option, though I don’t think all blanks is workable. It’s very rare, for one, and also has different odds depending on if you’re playing with first edition dice (which were separated into attack dice with 3 skulls 3 blanks and defense dice with 2 shields 4 blanks) or not. It’s a shame, though, as I do prefer a version that doesn’t add the extra step of a d20 roll to the mix, especially if we have one for Soul Decay Spirit which it looks like we might go with.

EDIT: Also, I think I slightly prefer Demon. Hybrid works, but only with a little extra layer of explanation that doesn’t seem quite in spirit with the archetype that species represents.

Fakeraistlin
July 22nd, 2019, 12:37 AM
I also like the whiff punish option, though I donít think all blanks is workable. Itís very rare, for one, and also has different odds depending on if youíre playing with first edition dice (which were separated into attack dice with 3 skulls 3 blanks and defense dice with 2 shields 4 blanks) or not. Itís a shame, though, as I do prefer a version that doesnít add the extra step of a d20 roll to the mix, especially if we have one for Soul Decay Spirit which it looks like we might go with.



How about "Soul Decay Aura v3
Whenever an enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks or defends and rolls all blanks or ties the opponent roll that figure receives 1 additional wound.

Scytale
July 22nd, 2019, 03:01 PM
I also like the whiff punish option, though I don’t think all blanks is workable. It’s very rare, for one, and also has different odds depending on if you’re playing with first edition dice (which were separated into attack dice with 3 skulls 3 blanks and defense dice with 2 shields 4 blanks) or not. It’s a shame, though, as I do prefer a version that doesn’t add the extra step of a d20 roll to the mix, especially if we have one for Soul Decay Spirit which it looks like we might go with.



How about "Soul Decay Aura v3
Whenever an enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> attacks or defends and rolls all blanks or ties the opponent roll that figure receives 1 additional wound.
Too strong, and still has the blanks problem. Something simpler would be better.

I'm not exactly against a d20 roll either, as long as it's not super common. Maybe something like,

Soul Decay Aura 4
Whenever an enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces makes a normal attack but does not roll any skulls, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, that figure receives one wound.

Lumovanis
July 23rd, 2019, 05:48 AM
I don't know why, but I'm getting a Khorne vibe here. A sort of "fight for my amusement" kind of thing where he is on your side, but he's just there for a good time.;

Utgar
[Ob] (can happen after abilities and such are settled)
Demon
Unique Hero
Lord
Merciless
[Height] (unsure of model scale, but guessing 5)

LIFE 6
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 5
DEFENSE 4

POINTS (TBD)

Special Powers:

Gift of Violence
Whenever another figure within 5 spaces makes an attack against a target other than [Ob], its controller may choose to add 1 to the attack value. If the target is wounded or destroyed by that attack, place a Blood Debt Marker on this Army Card.

Blood Rites
At the start of [Ob]'s move, you may remove 2 Blood Debt Markers on this Army Card to either remove a Wound Marker from [Ob] or gain +1 to Move or Attack this turn. Use this ability only once each turn.

Incite Blood Lust
While there are 6 or more Blood Debt Markers on this card, [Ob] and allied figures you control within 5 spaces of him have +1 attack and move.

Flying (as normal)

Just a quick mockup and thought on him at a glance.

The Long eared bat
July 23rd, 2019, 06:41 PM
I don't know why, but I'm getting a Khorne vibe here. A sort of "fight for my amusement" kind of thing where he is on your side, but he's just there for a good time.;

Utgar
[Ob] (can happen after abilities and such are settled)
Demon
Unique Hero
Lord
Merciless
[Height] (unsure of model scale, but guessing 5)

LIFE 6
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 5
DEFENSE 4

POINTS (TBD)

Special Powers:

Gift of Violence
Whenever another figure within 5 spaces makes an attack against a target other than [Ob], its controller may choose to add 1 to the attack value. If the target is wounded or destroyed by that attack, place a Blood Debt Marker on this Army Card.

Blood Rites
At the start of [Ob]'s move, you may remove 2 Blood Debt Markers on this Army Card to either remove a Wound Marker from [Ob] or gain +1 to Move or Attack this turn. Use this ability only once each turn.

Incite Blood Lust
While there are 6 or more Blood Debt Markers on this card, [Ob] and allied figures you control within 5 spaces of him have +1 attack and move.

Flying (as normal)

Just a quick mockup and thought on him at a glance.

I think this would be too much text on a card and would there be a limit on the number of markers? Gift of violence and incite blood could result in +2 attack for your own figures which is too powerful. I think aura 5 is too much for an attack aura.

I do like the essence of gift of violence but without markers.
How about: Whenever another figure within 2 clear sight spaces of (name) makes a normal attack,
its controller may choose to add 1 to the attack value. If so after defense dice are rolled the attacking figure must roll 20 sided die 1-13? they receive one wound.

TREX
July 23rd, 2019, 07:23 PM
The addition of an attack aura for any figures within 5 spaces of him for all with the exception that they may not target him would keep the points down a little bit. I would add that if the figure does not wound another figure with the attack boost it must take a wound. That would keep the power somewhat in check. That paired with flying may fill quite a bit of the card along with giving him an interesting enough angle that he would be fun to play. If another ability is added it may need to be less text heavy to fit on the card.

Lumovanis
July 24th, 2019, 03:59 AM
Yeah, I like the missed attack also wounding the attacker. Maybe something like this (and drop the blood debt)?;

Gift of Violence
Whenever another figure within 5 spaces makes an attack against a target other than [Ob], its controller may choose to add 1 to the attack value. If the attacker does not inflict any wounds or destroy the defender, the attacker suffers 1 damage.

Incite Blood Lust
All figures within 5 spaces receive +1 attack as long as they are not attacking [Ob]. Whenever any figure within this area is wounded or destroyed, remove a Wound Marker from this Army Card.

TREX
July 24th, 2019, 01:55 PM
Gift of violence can be simplified to save room on the card by removing "or destroy the defender", as inflicting a wound is clear enough. Im not a big fan of him healing from destroyed figures but if you guys keep it you could simply add the last sentence of incite bloodlust to the previous ability. It could also save room on the card, as the flying ability is pretty lengthy text. Id also change the gift of violence ability name to Bloodlust Aura or something to that effect.

Pumpkin_King
August 19th, 2019, 11:57 PM
Gonna bump this guy. We had a good thing going here.

All Your Pie
August 21st, 2019, 07:05 PM
This definitely seems like the trickiest nut to crack of the pod so far. I think there's still plenty of things to iron out, but overall I think Demon/Darklord is a good start here. Hybrid itself is a fairly general term, but through implication it's come to very specifically imply "were-creatures" rather than any species mix. I suppose we could make up another race to represent corrupted kyrie though, like Nephilim or something. But that then begs the question of why that doesn't include Azazel or any of the other evil kyrie.

For our aura/spirit combination, that's a little trickier. Most likely, we'll just have to choose a couple of options and test them out before we can decide if we like them. Right now, I like the "place on any army card, distribute a wound if its controller rolls low when taking a turn" option. That could either be a flat d20 roll or some kind of whiff punish option, or a combination of the two. For the aura, I think an attack boost that works for both allies and enemies is interesting. Since Badru and Acolytes are both melee, it would be hard to deny it to opposing figures, and using it with ranged armies would mean playing outside of your bonding options. Thoughts?

Scytale
August 21st, 2019, 07:14 PM
Hybrid itself is a fairly general term, but through implication it's come to very specifically imply "were-creatures" rather than any species mix.
VC in general would disagree with you.

All Your Pie
August 21st, 2019, 08:02 PM
Hybrid itself is a fairly general term, but through implication it's come to very specifically imply "were-creatures" rather than any species mix.
VC in general would disagree with you.
Would it? All hybrids I can think of are some kind of animal person. Certainly many aren't wolves, but it's enough of a tie to keep moon frenzy working on them thematically consistent. Whereas moon frenzy working on someone because they're part demon is more of a stretch for me.

flameslayer93
August 21st, 2019, 08:19 PM
Hybrid itself is a fairly general term, but through implication it's come to very specifically imply "were-creatures" rather than any species mix.
VC in general would disagree with you.
Would it? All hybrids I can think of are some kind of animal person. Certainly many aren't wolves, but it's enough of a tie to keep moon frenzy working on them thematically consistent. Whereas moon frenzy working on someone because they're part demon is more of a stretch for me.

The only character I can think of offhand who isnít a were-whatever is Seleena. She looks to be going for the space adventurer angle, though she is a hybrid.

Pumpkin_King
August 21st, 2019, 09:55 PM
Kyrie would be my choice, but if it trips people up Demon is the safer choice. We could have a straw poll about it.

Scytale
August 22nd, 2019, 12:14 AM
The only character I can think of offhand who isnít a were-whatever is Seleena. She looks to be going for the space adventurer angle, though she is a hybrid.
Maltis Tez isn't a were-anything either.

The Long eared bat
August 29th, 2019, 01:06 PM
Demon fits the figure the best for me. With an attack aura that affects both players, what if we make it a temptation aura that gives the player a choice to add an additional attck die and risk a wound with a 20 sided dice roll after attcking with the buff, or attack without a buff and avoid a potential wound.

robbdaman
September 21st, 2019, 02:24 PM
Kyrie would be my choice, but if it trips people up Demon is the safer choice. We could have a straw poll about it.

I agree here with Kyrie akin to Taelord and the Minions plus Runa. Valhalla Kyrie are meant to be an allegory of good angels and fallen ones somewhat biblically. I'd say he matches more to C3V Emporer Andask as well. I get that he has a tail though the only demons in the original game are the Mezzodemons, however C3V has the Skull Demons and Morgoloth. None of which have wings, in Heroscape humanoid creatures with wings are Kyrie. Personally I'd think it'd be missing the boat to not have the winged Arena creatures be Kyrie entirely, it's core to what Heroscape is after all.

Pumpkin_King
September 21st, 2019, 03:07 PM
Yeah. Having a Kyrie in a master set is just such an integral part of Heroscape I think it’s worth handwaving away a tail as a mutation of Valkrill’s magic.

All Your Pie
September 22nd, 2019, 12:43 AM
Some interesting groundswell behind Kyrie. Though it seems like every time we've nearly decided on a species for this guy, there's heavy support for one of the other options.

Demon seems like it's preferred by some and not a dealbreaker for most. Kyrie seems like it's strongly preferred by a few, and I don't mind it myself. Is Kyrie a dealbreaker for anyone currently?

robbdaman
September 22nd, 2019, 01:14 AM
Yeah. Having a Kyrie in a master set is just such an integral part of Heroscape I think itís worth handwaving away a tail as a mutation of Valkrillís magic.

Iíll take Xcto to it if it helps? :D

Astroking112
September 22nd, 2019, 01:21 AM
I don't think he looks like a Kyrie, but I'm sympathetic to the desire to have one in a Master Set. The tail and horns really feel more like a classic demon (admittedly different from the usual demons we've seen in HeroScape).

That said, if demon is selected, that'll greatly impact the cheerleading capabilities of this unit on account of the Acolytes' of Vorganund Dark Pact. Hybrid feels thematically strange, but at least Moon Frenzy isn't likely to drive the pricing decision on its own (and if he's a Darklord, the Wolves would be a better option anyway).

My main issue with Kyrie is that even if we say that he's a Kyrie, he doesn't really look like one. It feels like pushing for a Kyrie species just to have a Kyrie species in the box, which I think detracts from this individual design. If there was a more compelling direction reliant on him being a Kyrie or some kind of cool backstory about why he has a tail and horns but Taelord doesn't, I'd happily buy it, but I think that we need more justification than just wanting to have a Kyrie in our box and settling for a half-compromise.

robbdaman
September 22nd, 2019, 02:06 AM
Runa has elaborate horns, whether it's a helmet or not is up for debate. This guy's could be the same whatever that may be. As demons go he's less demony, particularly compared to the art for Ob Nixilus than Kyrie looking.

Pumpkin_King
September 22nd, 2019, 02:36 AM
Demon Darklord does make for a good and interesting nexus of synergy (wolves, acolytes) but I dunno. I'm still really stuck on the theme of having a kyrie.

Fakeraistlin
September 22nd, 2019, 02:01 PM
I like the dual synergy of Demon Darklord, though being unfamiliar of the whole of the customs might be a tad too powerful or expensive to field. Though playtesting and collective's experience will correct/balance the design I am sure.

I don't like race being kyrie , fallen or otherwise...theres enough in customs and in other sets, and i don't agree it is a requirement that one must be included in a set. There is also the issue of him not looking the part and i don't think shoe-horning him into role is the answer, when I think there is better alternatives...

Heroscape is about importing things from other dimensions, and realities... and this creature should be something else and from elsewhere.

flameslayer93
September 22nd, 2019, 06:35 PM
I like the dual synergy of Demon Darklord, though being unfamiliar of the whole of the customs might be a tad too powerful or expensive to field. Though playtesting and collective's experience will correct/balance the design I am sure.

I don't like race being kyrie , fallen or otherwise...theres enough in customs and in other sets, and i don't agree it is a requirement that one must be included in a set. There is also the issue of him not looking the part and i don't think shoe-horning him into role is the answer, when I think there is better alternatives...

Heroscape is about importing things from other dimensions, and realities... and this creature should be something else and from elsewhere.

Even if I disagree that Demon > Kyrie, this is a good post for the Demon arguement. :up:

All Your Pie
September 22nd, 2019, 07:43 PM
FWIW I don't think Acolytes synergy is a reason to steer away from demon. We'll certainly need to test it, but a low-attack cheerleader isn't likely going to be a better option for Dark Pact than Morgoloth or Corvor.

Astroking112
September 22nd, 2019, 11:58 PM
I pulled out my copy of Ob Nixilus with some Utgar Kyrie to see how they look together:

https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=22333&original=1

It's close (it actually looks a lot better than I anticipated), but there are multiple distracting factors. The wings don't look like Runa or Taelord's at all, there's a lot of purple with the red instead of black, and of course, there's an inexplicable tail. There'd need to be a good justification for why he looks so different from the Utgar Kyrie we know.

Runa has elaborate horns, whether it's a helmet or not is up for debate. This guy's could be the same whatever that may be. As demons go he's less demony, particularly compared to the art for Ob Nixilus than Kyrie looking.

Runa has the Helm of Mitonsoul as the main focus of her card. Considering that the other Utgar Kyrie seem to have helmets evoking horns as well, I think that it's very likely that the horns are from her helmet.

That said, the fact that Runa and Taelord both have varying styles of horns on their helmets does help. It makes it easier to say that Ob Nixilus' horns are actually from his helmet, albeit it does very little for his tail.

FWIW I don't think Acolytes synergy is a reason to steer away from demon. We'll certainly need to test it, but a low-attack cheerleader isn't likely going to be a better option for Dark Pact than Morgoloth or Corvor.

I think that the more worrisome thing about a cheerleader demon is that he can be placed anywhere on the board via Dark Pact, not the bonding turns. Depending on the aura, it could be the case that you never need to move him after sacrificing a single Acolyte. It's still workable of course, but I think that it's an important thing to keep in mind if going for the demon angle.

flameslayer93
September 23rd, 2019, 08:02 PM
I don’t find difference in wings to be enough to warrant him not being capable of being an Utgar Kyrie. Look at Raelin, Kelda, and Concan. Kelda even has funky blue skin that may or may not be warpaint.

The tail is still a concern of course.

Scytale
September 24th, 2019, 03:22 PM
The wings don't look like Runa or Taelord's at all, there's a lot of purple with the red instead of black, and of course, there's an inexplicable tail.
Maybe it's the picture, or maybe my colorblindless, but those wings looks like they fit in very well with Utgar kyrie. The purple is a bit different, but it looks like its somewhere between the Minions and heroes. More importantly than color, the demonic-wing style is right on point.

The tail is still a dealbreaker for me, though. It would be like calling a humanoid with pointy ears and a tail an Elf from Feylund.

Tornado
September 24th, 2019, 08:11 PM
Could be a recessive gene. Perhaps all Kyrie had tails at one point.
Maybe he drank from from a tainted Wellspring.
Perhaps he made a deal with a demon and the tail is it's mark.
You all are creative enough to find justification and it will probably lead to a really cool design.
Though Darklord Demon does sound pretty cool. :)
Good stuff, really interested in how this one turns out.

Astroking112
September 24th, 2019, 10:27 PM
The wings don't look like Runa or Taelord's at all, there's a lot of purple with the red instead of black, and of course, there's an inexplicable tail.
Maybe it's the picture, or maybe my colorblindless, but those wings looks like they fit in very well with Utgar kyrie. The purple is a bit different, but it looks like its somewhere between the Minions and heroes. More importantly than color, the demonic-wing style is right on point.

The tail is still a dealbreaker for me, though. It would be like calling a humanoid with pointy ears and a tail an Elf from Feylund.

Maybe I did too good of a job fitting him in the picture. :lol:

It bothers me slightly because it'd be breaking a pattern of Utgar's common Kyrie having red wings and his Kyrie Heroes having black wings (plus the purple feels very out-of-place), but you're typically more concerned about Kyrie wings than I am, so if you're fine with it then I could definitely be overthinking this.

Could be a recessive gene. Perhaps all Kyrie had tails at one point.
Maybe he drank from from a tainted Wellspring.
Perhaps he made a deal with a demon and the tail is it's mark.
You all are creative enough to find justification and it will probably lead to a really cool design.
Though Darklord Demon does sound pretty cool. :)
Good stuff, really interested in how this one turns out.

Speaking of this in general, what if we tied him to the story (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56017) behind the entire set? I'd welcome everyone to brainstorm some ideas for that there. If people are really determined to have a Kyrie in the box, then I think there are ways we can work with it, so long as it's used in an interesting way and doesn't feel like we just wanted to have a Kyrie because it's a Master Set.

robbdaman
September 24th, 2019, 10:51 PM
Runa’s Dark brownish gray wings are very unusual too. Perhaps this figure could be the most corrupt and evil of all the Utgar kyrie. His use of dark magics even Utgar himself shunned.

All Your Pie
September 24th, 2019, 10:59 PM
I don't want it to get lost that fakeraistlin and The Long Eared Bat are pod members here, and both have come down firmly in favor of Demon. If push comes to shove, a vote among pod members is most likely what I'm going to propose in order to resolve this as I feel like there's no obvious best choice between Demon and Kyrie.

(speaking of, there is still one more position available in this pod, so if that vote is something you want authority to weigh in on...)

Jaur0n
lefton4ya

I apologize if you've already made it clear earlier in the thread and it slipped my mind, but what's your respective stances on species for this figure? Should we go with Demon, or find a way to make Kyrie work?

The Long eared bat
September 25th, 2019, 04:40 AM
I only said demon due to the fact he has a tail, but looking at the CV3 demons they don't have wings and [ob] looks more like the Utgar Kyrie minus the tail. The heroscape Kyrie do vary in appearance. The tail could just be a mutation or due to some kind of magic/curse or from a wellspring.

Heroscaper Guy
September 25th, 2019, 05:02 AM
I only said demon due to the fact he has a tail, but looking at the CV3 demons they don't have wings and [ob] looks more like the Utgar Kyrie minus the tail. The heroscape Kyrie do vary in appearance. The tail could just be a mutation or due to some kind of magic/curse or from a wellspring.

Currently released no, but there is one demon in public playtesting that has wings (The Pathfinder Leukodaemon).

The Long eared bat
September 25th, 2019, 05:55 AM
So if demons can vary so much in physical appearance why can't Kyrie? To be honest I not too bothered on whether he should be a demon or Kyrie. I am happy to go with the majority for those with a stronger preference for one or the other.

lefton4ya
September 25th, 2019, 12:18 PM
Sorry I haven't chimed in in awhile.
...For left box stats I agree with consensus of others to make Demon and have Wolves of Badru & Death Knights Bonding:
Demon
Unique Hero
Darklord
Relentless
Medium 5
Looking at the C3V squad with its sacrificial bonding (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55956) I'm OK with keeping as Demon. To correlate, Taelord has quasi-bonding with Minions and although that is a decent army (in high point games) more people use Taelord without the Minions. However, if not than Hybrid or some other one is fine too.

I think for the spirit we should have a simple -1A or -1D (We all agreed (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55806) this set should have as many simple powers as we can). However although I would prefer the Aura to be simple as well (maybe negative Attack on opponent where there is Left-box stat restrictions, like a reverse of Ana Karithon's Protection from Evil Aura), I'd be Ok with a receiving wounds on some kind of whiff.
I am more concerned with what powers we have and thinking about who he bonds/has synergy with, then focusing on Left box stats for lore sake alone - I could see him as a Kyrie or Demon based on sculpt/lore, but for synergy more Demons are needed in Heroscape.

You all shot down my idea of a simple Aura (Negative attack or Negative Defense) but I saw a lot of other good aura and spirit ideas that I think we discuss more as well.

robbdaman
September 25th, 2019, 01:14 PM
I only said demon due to the fact he has a tail, but looking at the CV3 demons they don't have wings and [ob] looks more like the Utgar Kyrie minus the tail. The heroscape Kyrie do vary in appearance. The tail could just be a mutation or due to some kind of magic/curse or from a wellspring.

Currently released no, but there is one demon in public playtesting that has wings (The Pathfinder Leukodaemon).

Yeah, that freaky thing sure doesn't look like any Kyrie, more a thing from your nightmares.

Pumpkin_King
September 25th, 2019, 06:39 PM
I liked the re-roll aura idea.

flameslayer93
September 26th, 2019, 08:10 PM
lefton4ya

I suspect more demons are coming to scape soon enough. That does not retract from your statement, just a heads up. :)

Astroking112
September 26th, 2019, 08:25 PM
Also on a broader note, we're not specifically looking to fill synergy holes with this box. Hopefully people will be able to buy this even without any VC units and still be able to enjoy the set on its own merits. If demon matches the theme or desired gameplay, then I'd say go for it, but please don't choose demon just because there aren't many official demons yet.

Pumpkin_King
September 29th, 2019, 04:53 AM
It seems like we’re stuck on this. Do we need to conduct a simple vote?

All Your Pie
September 30th, 2019, 01:33 AM
Yeah, I think a voteís in order here. The rest of the unit is hard to design not knowing itís synergy implications.

Pod Members, chime in with a vote for demon or kyrie. Iíll hold my vote for now to break a tie if needed.

Fakeraistlin
September 30th, 2019, 01:56 AM
Vote for Demon from somewhere else

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 03:57 AM
If I had to choose I vote Kyrie.

Scytale
September 30th, 2019, 11:44 AM
Demon

Looks a lot like an Utgar kyrie, but the tail is a deal-breaker for me.

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 12:14 PM
So far

Demon: 3

Kyrie: 1

lefton4ya
September 30th, 2019, 04:01 PM
Demon

The Long eared bat
September 30th, 2019, 04:17 PM
The vote for Demon can't be beaten so Demon wins.

Tornado
September 30th, 2019, 06:48 PM
Was pulling for a creative Kyrie design here. I think you are missing an opportunity here to make something that could really wow people.
That said I anticipate a solid Darklord Demon.

Jaur0n
September 30th, 2019, 10:42 PM
Demon is fine with me.

robbdaman
September 30th, 2019, 10:53 PM
Was pulling for a creative Kyrie design here. I think you are missing an opportunity here to make something that could really wow people.
That said I anticipate a solid Darklord Demon.

Yeah me too, a master set without Kyrie isnít Heroscape to me. I just donít think itís very imposing of a figure compared to Morgoloth or even the Mezzodemons.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 11:15 PM
I suppose it can't be helped. I'd not in the pod but my answer would have been Kyrie too.

Darklord demon is a good second choice.

Scytale
October 1st, 2019, 12:03 AM
I think it's generally a mistake to be overly clever in this set. If our goal is accessibility we should be aiming for obvious archtypes, not expect new users to read the lore and the history of the lore to understand how these units fit in and why they may not fit in with prior units. If it was a C3V unit I might be ok with making it a Kyrie and extending the lore, giving him a place in it. Not for a set aimed at new players.

robbdaman
October 1st, 2019, 12:11 AM
That seems backwards thinking given Rise of the Valkyrie could only have brand new players being the first set and all.

Astroking112
October 1st, 2019, 12:24 AM
That seems backwards thinking given Rise of the Valkyrie could only have brand new players being the first set and all.

One of the main goals of this project is to make HeroScape more approachable to a wide variety of people. Even if they hadn't heard of HeroScape before, they should be able to buy the Arena of the Planeswalkers sets, print some cards, and quickly get introduced to classic HeroScape. While Rise of the Valkyrie was many of our first sets, we can't assume that it will be for everyone that we're trying to reach (rather, we should hope that it isn't!).

flameslayer93
October 1st, 2019, 12:28 AM
Excellent, now that he’s a confirmed demon now we can really start considering synergies and such.

Will “dropping in” a negative aura be too much from the Acolytes? I can only assume they aren’t going to change their powers *that* much. Will -1 Defense be enough to make Ob Nix fun enough in an MS only setting?

Tornado
October 1st, 2019, 12:30 AM
This is meant as a stand alone set?

flameslayer93
October 1st, 2019, 12:41 AM
Yup, although we still need to be aware of what exists out of it.

All Your Pie
October 1st, 2019, 01:40 AM
I tend to think that sacrificing a unit to drop in an aura isnít going to be too overwhelming, especially when whatever position theyíre aiming for still has to be reached by a 4 or 5 move walker. Plus, theyíre a melee squad. An opponent can easily retreat out of the aura.

Bonding with the Wolves of Badru, strangely, actually has stronger potential in my eyes. A negative aura that weakens defense in some way would benefit Pounce, and being able to reposition it for free is quite useful. If itís driving the design too far away from being useful as a standalone figure then we donít have to go with Darklord, although it does seem like the perfect class at first glance.

At any rate, give me a couple days and Iíll have more complete thoughts on where to go from here.

Pumpkin_King
October 1st, 2019, 01:46 AM
This is meant as a stand alone set?
This is meant to function as another ROTV. ROTV was standalone, or could stand alone.

Pumpkin_King
October 1st, 2019, 01:46 AM
We thought that a re-roll aura would be too much work, right?

robbdaman
October 1st, 2019, 09:07 AM
Well, seems more like it’s trying to be similar to master set 3 and push a different product into Heroscape like they did with the D&D stuff rather than focus it back to the origins of the game. The rationalization I’m hearing is backwards as I said, particularly given the new players I know go back and hunt and buy the old product and some know nothing of C3V or SOV until later. Though I realize this isn’t necessarily the place to discuss the focus of the project.

NecroBlade
October 1st, 2019, 10:16 PM
FWIW, I agree with rob that having a Kyrie in a Master Set is nice, especially one called Arena of the Valkyrie, plus I have no doubt someone could come up with an interesting lore explanation for the tail. That said, I completely understand objection to the tail, and also have no issue whatsoever seeing him as a Demon.

What I'm saying is, glad I couldn't help. :lol:

All Your Pie
October 2nd, 2019, 06:59 PM
Alrighty, now we can get into ironing out this guy's powers. I think the aura+spirit idea has remained a favorite throughout discussion, so for now let's stick to that. I personally prefer a negative aura that hinders allies rather than helping enemies, and I think that squares well with our choice of species--I don't see a demon helping his allies, and an aura that has to include enemy figures means that simply summoning him and leaving him in one spot with the Acolytes won't be all that effective.

Here's the combination of powers that I like best:

Misfortune Aura
After an opponent rolls defense dice for a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name), you may have that player re-roll all dice once. You may only use Misfortune Aura once per turn.

(I still think this aura fits a tormenting demon lord who deals in curses and spite. Adding a once per turn restriction at the end limits the amount of time and re-rolling it will add to the game.)

Demon's Frailty Curse 2
When (figure name) is destroyed, place this figure on any Unique Army Card. (Figure name)'s curse subtracts 2 from the defense value on that army card.

(This seems like the simplest direction to go with the spirit and I like it the most. Variants of Soul Decay Aura or spirit are intriguing but I think pushing on complexity and could be irritating to keep track of. -2 defense permanently on any unique card is quite powerful, but it won't justify this figure's price on its own.)

I'd personally push for some variant of these to be on the final card. I haven't, however, kept good track of everyone's preferences throughout discussion, so I'm curious where the rest of the Pod is at here.

Scytale
October 2nd, 2019, 07:10 PM
Looks pretty solid to me.

Fakeraistlin
October 2nd, 2019, 10:54 PM
Alrighty, now we can get into ironing out this guy's powers. I think the aura+spirit idea has remained a favorite throughout discussion, so for now let's stick to that. I personally prefer a negative aura that hinders allies rather than helping enemies, and I think that squares well with our choice of species--I don't see a demon helping his allies, and an aura that has to include enemy figures means that simply summoning him and leaving him in one spot with the Acolytes won't be all that effective.

Here's the combination of powers that I like best:

Misfortune Aura
After an opponent rolls defense dice for a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name), you may have that player re-roll all dice once. You may only use Misfortune Aura once per turn.

(I still think this aura fits a tormenting demon lord who deals in curses and spite. Adding a once per turn restriction at the end limits the amount of time and re-rolling it will add to the game.)

Demon's Frailty Curse 2
When (figure name) is destroyed, place this figure on any Unique Army Card. (Figure name)'s curse subtracts 2 from the defense value on that army card.

(This seems like the simplest direction to go with the spirit and I like it the most. Variants of Soul Decay Aura or spirit are intriguing but I think pushing on complexity and could be irritating to keep track of. -2 defense permanently on any unique card is quite powerful, but it won't justify this figure's price on its own.)

I'd personally push for some variant of these to be on the final card. I haven't, however, kept good track of everyone's preferences throughout discussion, so I'm curious where the rest of the Pod is at here.


I like what you suggested earlier in the thread as an alternative to misfortune: And its easy...

Veil of Darkness
(Opponent's) figures within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name) may not make normal attacks against non-adjacent figures.

Also prefer Scytale's Soul Decay Curse:

Soul Decay Spirit
When <unit> is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Hero Army Card. After any player takes a turn with that unit, that player must roll the 20-sided die. If they roll a 7 or less, that Hero receives a wound.

Soul Decay:
After moving and before attacking with unit roll the 20-sided die. If they roll 19 or higher all adjacent figures receive a wound.

The Long eared bat
October 3rd, 2019, 03:55 AM
I like Misfortune Aura and Soul Decay Spirit.

lefton4ya
October 3rd, 2019, 06:57 PM
Alrighty, now we can get into ironing out this guy's powers. I think the aura+spirit idea has remained a favorite throughout discussion, so for now let's stick to that. I personally prefer a negative aura that hinders allies rather than helping enemies, and I think that squares well with our choice of species--I don't see a demon helping his allies, and an aura that has to include enemy figures means that simply summoning him and leaving him in one spot with the Acolytes won't be all that effective.

Here's the combination of powers that I like best:

Misfortune Aura
After an opponent rolls defense dice for a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name), you may have that player re-roll all dice once. You may only use Misfortune Aura once per turn.

(I still think this aura fits a tormenting demon lord who deals in curses and spite. Adding a once per turn restriction at the end limits the amount of time and re-rolling it will add to the game.)

Demon's Frailty Curse 2
When (figure name) is destroyed, place this figure on any Unique Army Card. (Figure name)'s curse subtracts 2 from the defense value on that army card.

(This seems like the simplest direction to go with the spirit and I like it the most. Variants of Soul Decay Aura or spirit are intriguing but I think pushing on complexity and could be irritating to keep track of. -2 defense permanently on any unique card is quite powerful, but it won't justify this figure's price on its own.)

I'd personally push for some variant of these to be on the final card. I haven't, however, kept good track of everyone's preferences throughout discussion, so I'm curious where the rest of the Pod is at here.
Simpler is better IMHO - these are great!. Plus the combination of two powers it more thematic. I like the reroll defense - it is a unique twist to already established powers by Emperor Andask's Orb of Vengeance Aura.

Not sure if Frailty Curse 2 is too powerful and reducing to 1 is better, but makes interesting choice on whether to kill or not.

All Your Pie
October 9th, 2019, 03:59 AM
After a little bit, hereís my thoughts

Misfortune Aura seems to be mostly agreed upon, although I do want to discuss some tweaks to the concept. Iím worried that as-is, it would be too weak. Compared to Orb of Vengeance from Andask, this figure has to do the legwork to get an enemy in his aura. When he does, he gets to re-roll enemy defense once, possibly turning s block into a hit. Thatís decent, but it doesnít seem as swingy or dangerous as re-rolling an attack.

Is there a way for the power to lose the once per turn restriction without causing game slowdown or decision paralysis? I was thinking something like making it mandatoryóďafter an opponentís figure rolls defense dice, if they rolled enough shields to block all damage, they must re-roll all dice onceĒ or something. Maybe Iím just off base about power level though.

For Soul Decay Spirit, Iíd prefer a version that works on any army card. As follows:

When (unit name) is destroyed, place this figure on any opponentís army card. Before a player takes a turn with that army card, they must immediately roll the 20-sided die. If they roll an X or lower, they must choose a figure from that card to receive a wound.

This would make the unit dangerous to kill even if there arenít any unique heroes in your army. I still prefer the simpler Frailty Curse, thoughócleaner to read and to keep track of throughout the game.

Fakeraistlin
October 9th, 2019, 11:28 AM
After a little bit, hereís my thoughts

Misfortune Aura seems to be mostly agreed upon, although I do want to discuss some tweaks to the concept. Iím worried that as-is, it would be too weak. Compared to Orb of Vengeance from Andask, this figure has to do the legwork to get an enemy in his aura. When he does, he gets to re-roll enemy defense once, possibly turning s block into a hit. Thatís decent, but it doesnít seem as swingy or dangerous as re-rolling an attack.

Is there a way for the power to lose the once per turn restriction without causing game slowdown or decision paralysis? I was thinking something like making it mandatoryóďafter an opponentís figure rolls defense dice, if they rolled enough shields to block all damage, they must re-roll all dice onceĒ or something. Maybe Iím just off base about power level though.

For Soul Decay Spirit, Iíd prefer a version that works on any army card. As follows:

When (unit name) is destroyed, place this figure on any opponentís army card. Before a player takes a turn with that army card, they must immediately roll the 20-sided die. If they roll an X or lower, they must choose a figure from that card to receive a wound.

T

Soul Decay...I like any army card, and excuse my ignorance of rules but if there is multiple squads of same army would they all be affected... that would be cool ... that would mean only heroes would attempt kill other wise multiple squads of x would be slowly decaying.

Also about getting enemy in aura, maybe give him
range of 3.

Still not sold on re-roll mechanic

Scytale
October 9th, 2019, 12:59 PM
When (unit name) is destroyed, place this figure on any opponentís army card. Before a player takes a turn with that army card, they must immediately roll the 20-sided die. If they roll an X or lower, they must choose a figure from that card to receive a wound.
That's messy with the official rules for commons, where you have one card for each copy.. You could put this guy on one card and take a turn with a different card.

Scytale
October 9th, 2019, 01:43 PM
The more I think about it, the more I'm against an auto-wound Soul Decay power. The opponent has absolutely no mitigation; ignoring a demon attacking them is not an option. Once the figure is placed, it's a countdown timer you have zero control over. Either you let the unit sit and get beaten to death, or you die by activating it. It's also abnormally brutal to low-Life heroes like Deathwalkers and (if we go that route) squads with few figures but high cost like Sentinels of Jandar.

Pumpkin_King
October 9th, 2019, 04:27 PM
Chen Tang (jandar monk) does a similar thing.

Though I actually might bring up focusing on one power, the Misfortune aura. Maybe we can choose another figure to have a Spirit power. Maybe the healer lady.

Scytale
October 9th, 2019, 05:24 PM
Chen Tang (jandar monk) does a similar thing.
Chen has to move in and strike his target. This guy simply has to die, and never has to get near his target.

Fakeraistlin
October 10th, 2019, 10:51 AM
The more I think about it, the more I'm against an auto-wound Soul Decay power. The opponent has absolutely no mitigation; ignoring a demon attacking them is not an option. Once the figure is placed, it's a countdown timer you have zero control over. Either you let the unit sit and get beaten to death, or you die by activating it. It's also abnormally brutal to low-Life heroes like Deathwalkers and (if we go that route) squads with few figures but high cost like Sentinels of Jandar.

Maybe limit curse only to destroying figure with only
50 or x percent of transferal?

Pumpkin_King
October 11th, 2019, 09:41 PM
I should have made it clear earlier - I am also against an auto wound, I was just pointing out Chen, which you make a good point.

All Your Pie
October 13th, 2019, 04:22 PM
It looks like we're fairly split about the Spirit power between Frailty and Soul Decay.

I think Scytale's point is very compelling--as written, it just isn't possible for an opponent to play around Soul Decay. I think there are ways we could address that, but none of them are particularly clean or easy. Implementing them would require a further layer of complexity on a power that is already the more complex of the two options. Even if we weren't trying to limit that complexity here, by that point it starts to read like a power that belongs on a separate card rather than sharing space with a somewhat novel aura.

I really think Frailty curse covers our intent here. It's simple, snappy, and easy to read, but still powerful enough to perhaps cause some hesitation from an opponent aiming to kill this guy. I expect that it would also lead to a better play experience, as I could imagine constructing a somewhat irritating army that relies on turtling and waiting out the clock on Soul Decay Spirit if we went that route.

lefton4ya
October 14th, 2019, 11:35 AM
Alrighty, now we can get into ironing out this guy's powers. I think the aura+spirit idea has remained a favorite throughout discussion, so for now let's stick to that. I personally prefer a negative aura that hinders allies enemies rather than helping enemies allies, and I think that squares well with our choice of species--I don't see a demon helping his allies, and an aura that has to include enemy figures means that simply summoning him and leaving him in one spot with the Acolytes won't be all that effective.

Here's the combination of powers that I like best:

Misfortune Aura
After an opponent rolls defense dice for a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of (figure name), you may have that player re-roll all dice once. You may only use Misfortune Aura once per turn.

(I still think this aura fits a tormenting demon lord who deals in curses and spite. Adding a once per turn restriction at the end limits the amount of time and re-rolling it will add to the game.)

Demon's Frailty Curse 2
When (figure name) is destroyed, place this figure on any Unique Army Card. (Figure name)'s curse subtracts 2 from the defense value on that army card.

(This seems like the simplest direction to go with the spirit and I like it the most. Variants of Soul Decay Aura or spirit are intriguing but I think pushing on complexity and could be irritating to keep track of. -2 defense permanently on any unique card is quite powerful, but it won't justify this figure's price on its own.)

I'd personally push for some variant of these to be on the final card. I haven't, however, kept good track of everyone's preferences throughout discussion, so I'm curious where the rest of the Pod is at here.
I agree with everything here, but especially bold underlined (including clean up ;)). Simple powers, but engaging choices: "When attacking with a Squad or multiple attacker, do I want to use Misfortune Aura on 1st attack or will they get luckier on second attack?" & " When I have a medium defense unique hero/squad, do I want to kill him first or let him live?" I think other suggestions are both more complex and less engaging in choices. Unless someone else as a simpler and more engaging choice, I'd like to go with All Your Pie's suggestion, but I do respect others if you disagree and think a more complex power is worth it and can make a case why.

Jaur0n
October 15th, 2019, 02:28 PM
I'm good with Demon's Frailty Curse 2 or Soul Decay Spirit (assuming the chance is pretty low).



I have an issue with Misfortune Aura as it requires people to remember if it was done or not. How are we accounting for that? Counters usually indicate but this is a per turn thing. I really dislike mechanics like this that rely heavily on the players to figure out a system. I feel we need to change it so it does not rely on remembering if it been used or develop a solution for the players to use. All your pie mentions one way to do this.

Scytale
October 15th, 2019, 03:03 PM
Once per turn abilities are not unusual, and do not normally have markers. Heck, even once-per-round powers like Overextend Attack don't even have markers.

Jaur0n
October 15th, 2019, 05:00 PM
Not sure I agree that it's not unusual. I am struggling to find any once per turn that operate similar to this power., especially given it happens on someone else's turn. and can happen frequently in a 3+ player game I do agree that Overextend Attack works very similarly (round) but I don't see that as changing anything. It was a bad design IMO.


We've talked many times about keeping things simple but we're kind of complicating a power when we can probably figure out how to not need an indicator or provide one.

lefton4ya
October 16th, 2019, 02:50 PM
It is once per the attacker's turn (just noticed this power as worded would work in multi-player games, both team and even free-for all where one opponent is attacking another). In official heroscape, I can't think of a power of the top of my head, but in C3V it is more common such as Emperor Andask (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=50586) for which this is a different version of:
Orb of Vengeance Aura
When a figure you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Emperor Andask attacks an adjacent figure with a normal attack, before defense dice are rolled, you may re-roll all attack dice that did not show skulls. Orb of Vengeance Aura does not affect Emperor Andask. Orb of Vengeance Aura may only be used once per turn.

Scytale
October 16th, 2019, 03:03 PM
Not sure I agree that it's not unusual. I am struggling to find any once per turn that operate similar to this power., especially given it happens on someone else's turn.
Brute Grut's Berserker Frenzy
Varkaanan Darkclaw's Dual Strike
Kira Jax's Exploit Weakness
Cormin the Dark's Facade (during someone else's turn)
M-43 Resistance Fighters' Guerrilla Tactics
The Varja's Living Storm
Emperor Andask's Orb of Vengeance Aura
Elaria the Pale's Slippery (during someone else's turn)
Warforged Soldiers' Tactical Switch
Kon-Tar-Na's Taste of Blood

There are also a bunch of attack powers and special attacks that can only affect a figure once per turn. Some simple, like Nilfheim's Ice Shards Breath Special Attack, some more complicated like Sharwin Wildborn's Arcane Bolt Special Attack.

The Long eared bat
October 22nd, 2019, 11:13 AM
I think if we want him to be simple a -1 defense aura and -2 defense spirit seems the best option.

Scytale
October 22nd, 2019, 11:30 AM
I think if we want him to be simple a -1 defense aura and -2 defense spirit seems the best option.
I do like the solid simplicity of that. And remember our target market, newer players who can pick up a new "master set."

Tornado
October 22nd, 2019, 01:38 PM
Cool.

lefton4ya
October 22nd, 2019, 02:58 PM
Only thing is want the aura to be different than Gothlok (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55249)'s AURA OF DESPAIR
All figures within 4 clear sight spaces of Gothlok roll 1 less defense die. Figures that follow Valkrill are not affected by Aura of Despair.
even if you changed the general, it might be very similar. I like the reroll Misfortune Aura better just for being different.

Pumpkin_King
October 29th, 2019, 04:33 AM
I like the reroll aura better too.

All Your Pie
October 31st, 2019, 05:47 PM
I tend to prefer the reroll aura as well. It isn't much more complicated than defense reduction, and I'd prefer to avoid trampling on Gothlok's signature power. It could be argued, though, that "aura that makes enemy defense worse" is kind of doing that anyway no matter what spin we throw on it.

lefton4ya
November 8th, 2019, 11:19 AM
Aura:
All Your Pie (Pod Leader): reroll
Scytale (Pod Leader): -1 defense
Fakeraistlin - ?
lefton4ya - reroll
Jaur0n - ?
The Long eared bat: -1 defense
Pumpkin_King (honorary member): reroll

Fakeraistlin & Jaur0n - what say you?

Fakeraistlin
November 8th, 2019, 04:08 PM
-1 Def

Jaur0n
November 8th, 2019, 05:32 PM
Defense

All Your Pie
November 8th, 2019, 08:17 PM
Looks like defense subtraction is preferred. Are we amenable to something like -1 defense to all opponents, but only within 2 or 3 clear sight spaces instead of 4?

Pumpkin_King
November 9th, 2019, 08:20 PM
I just think we shouldn’t be trying such a simile power to the Valkrill FB. But that’s just me.

robbdaman
November 9th, 2019, 08:32 PM
I just think we shouldnít be trying such a simile power to the Valkrill FB. But thatís just me.

Yeah, itís essentially the same.

flameslayer93
November 9th, 2019, 09:25 PM
I just think we shouldnít be trying such a simile power to the Valkrill FB. But thatís just me.

Yeah, itís essentially the same.

Any power that reduces defense, either via forcing rerolls or straight drops, are going to feel similar. Aura of Despair again just takes out the extra step.

All Your Pie
November 9th, 2019, 11:39 PM
I just think we shouldnít be trying such a simile power to the Valkrill FB. But thatís just me.

Yeah, itís essentially the same.

Any power that reduces defense, either via forcing rerolls or straight drops, are going to feel similar. Aura of Despair again just takes out the extra step.
Iíve come around to this line of thinking, but I think that means we should differentiate them in some other way rather than not differentiating them at all. How about:

Accursed Grasp
Opponentís figures engaged with (figure) roll 2 less defense dice.

lefton4ya
November 10th, 2019, 11:16 AM
All Your Pie - NO! Hurts melee opponents too much and doesn’t hurt range at all, that’s something I’m against in general. I could live with a very similar aura to Valkrill FB but with different general (Utgar) but would probably be OP, playtests will decide

robbdaman
November 10th, 2019, 12:07 PM
One of the complaints of one of my old customs and SoV entrants was a similar melee killing ability. It hurt unique figures less than common but in testing they felt it completely ruined melee armies. I guarantee you’d feel the same if tested.

lefton4ya
November 10th, 2019, 02:18 PM
Just reuse and modify Gothlokís, but maybe make aura 3 spaces. I am not in favor of making it opponentís figures for fear of stacking Gothlok, this figure, and a Nerak/Raelin
All figures within 4 3 clear sight spaces of [ON] roll 1 less defense die. Figures that follow Utgar are not affected by Aura of [Despondency].

All Your Pie
November 10th, 2019, 04:22 PM
I don't see how a ranged aura that doesn't affect Utgar figures such as Deathreavers would be less punishing to melee than an aura that only affects adjacent targets. Sure, ranged armies can shoot at him without dealing with the aura, but that's true whether the aura extends 1 space or 4.

I think a re-skin of Gothlok's aura but at range 3 instead of range 4 is the exact wrong solution. It's still Gothlok's aura, just different in a very small way. We should either re-use the mechanic fully (although I am against it) or come up with an alternative that functions in some significantly different way. Additionally, are we planning to do an Utgar demon here? That strikes me as a little odd.

As an aside, I'm also somewhat against the idea that melee is in need of excessive coddling here. If this figure slams into a massed melee squad, at 3D 5L he's probably going down next turn. A ranged squad could pick him off before he gets in, but with 6 move and flying he'll be able to maneuver decently well.

lefton4ya
November 10th, 2019, 11:07 PM
I was against the -2 adjacent aura you suggested as that I felt was more hurtful to melee than -1 range aura. A -1 adjacent aura would be fine, but maybe we should let others chime. I don’t mind us all disagreeing somewhat but hopefully there is a compromise we can all have a consensus on - a power that might might be any of our top picks but we would all be OK with.

Fakeraistlin
November 10th, 2019, 11:35 PM
How about -1 DEF 3 spaces AURA LINE OF SIGHT, -2 DEF AURA ADJACENT.

Captain Stupendous
November 12th, 2019, 01:17 PM
I've been relatively quiet here lately, but I've still been following the threads here actively and excited to see the progress that's being made on all the new units!

I also thought I'd throw out a suggestion as a way to differentiate Ob's aura from Gothlok. What if you added an engagement requirement? As a possibility:

Awful Fear Aura (just spitballing a name)

All enemy units within four clear sight spaces who are engaged with one of your figures subtract 2 from their defense.

Obviously the details could be tweaked (I've already got a feeling that -2 defense is quite possibly too strong). Obviously this counters melee armies pretty strongly, but ironically works best when drafting melee units in your own army. It does run the risk though of making the deathreavers even more of an auto-inclusion.

You could also go the other way and make the aura only affect enemy units who are unengaged, but I don't like how that would discourage Ob from working with melee units. Perhaps something like this could work?

Awful Fear Aura (just spitballing a name)

All enemy units within four clear sight spaces who were unengaged at the beginning of this turn subtract 2 from their defense.

I think I like how this would play out mechanically; it actually discourages spamming deathreavers and helps the wolves of Badru out quite a bit, but it might be a little more complicated than what we are looking for for this set?

Jaur0n
November 12th, 2019, 01:18 PM
Can we work it so the ability checks the card for any ranged attacks and if so applies -2, if not applies -1? If applying different reductions in defense is an issue I'd be cool with it only working units with a ranged attack.


This would make it more interesting to me at least.

lefton4ya
November 12th, 2019, 01:35 PM
Captain Stupendous I like your second idea actually. In thoery I like Jaur0n's as well but don't know how I feel about refencing the range value on a card (I guess the redacted Laglor (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8580) did). I have another a similar idea, how about a ranged aura that is -2D against EITHER squads or common figures but -1D on all else.
Opponent's Squad figures within 4 clear sight spaces of [ON] roll 2 less defense die. Opponent's Hero figures within 4 clear sight spaces of [ON] roll 1 less defense die.
Again the power can sub Squad/Hero with Common/Unique (would we rather it affect Unique Squad or Common Hero figures?) but I think something that overall is better against common squads (whether melee or range) but is still good against unique heroes would be nice. It is powerful as -2 Defense is ~roughly the same odds as +1.333 attack (subtracting 2/3 average defense vs adding 2/3 average attack) , so would need to be a costly figure, say in ~140-170 range (more than Gothlok/Raelin 2.0, less than Taelord).

Please comment if you like mine, Captain Stupendous', Jaur0n's, or anther previous suggestion.

Also which word is better (any precedence ) between "unfriendly", "nonfrendly", "opponent", or "enemy" figure?

Scytale
November 12th, 2019, 01:41 PM
Can we work it so the ability checks the card for any ranged attacks and if so applies -2, if not applies -1? If applying different reductions in defense is an issue I'd be cool with it only working units with a ranged attack.

This would make it more interesting to me at least.
We could make a "Range value of two or more" condition, but that's too much of an obvious anti-meta for my tastes.

I understand the desire to not step on Gothlok's signature power, and I agree. So let's try to be honestly different but with the same feeling, not just some variation of -x defense.

FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled, remove one of those shields.

The Long eared bat
November 12th, 2019, 01:44 PM
FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled, remove one of those shields.

I like that.

robbdaman
November 12th, 2019, 01:55 PM
I think having it effect attacks done at range more would be more interesting as well. -2 def in melee is pretty harsh and would need to be heavily costed as a result. May have to differentiate with normal and special attacks.

Fear labeling would then set fearless units to be immune, which may not be a bad thing.

Pumpkin_King
November 13th, 2019, 01:14 AM
I like Scy's aura.

lefton4ya
November 13th, 2019, 11:38 AM
Scytale interesting idea. Even with 3 defense it can reduce average defense slightly (-25.9% if I did my math right). In theory it is like reducing any defense above 3 to 1/3 of >3 (so 6 defense is ~like 4 defense, 4 defense is ~like 3.3333). I am simplifying math a little but think the idea is interesting (even if needs worded better). I do like that it does not seem overpowered when stacked with Gothlok or any of the Attack boosters. For wording, this is slightly better but seems too formal, maybe others have ideas:
FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

Scytale
November 13th, 2019, 12:44 PM
@Scytale (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=968) interesting idea. Even with 3 defense it can reduce average defense slightly (-25.9% if I did my math right). In theory it is like reducing any defense above 3 to 1/3 of >3 (so 6 defense is ~like 4 defense, 4 defense is ~like 3.3333). I am simplifying math a little but think the idea is interesting (even if needs worded better). I do like that it does not seem overpowered when stacked with Gothlok or any of the Attack boosters. For wording, this is slightly better but seems too formal, maybe others have ideas:
FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.
The most interesting aspect of the aura is that it is more punishing for higher-defense units (or anyone in Raelin's aura). And, as you note, it really doesn't stack well with any other defense-reducing powers.

I like that wording.

flameslayer93
November 13th, 2019, 01:12 PM
I don’t see why folks are bent out of shape about using Gothlok’s power. As a non-C3V insider, it’s his Charge that’s his signature power, not his Aura. Auras got reused a bit in ‘scape already. And any of them that put a “creative” twist on it always felt flat. Kiova’s Gift of the Empress could have been simply +1 Defense for Einarian Kyrie and she would have been seen as just as a crappy Raelin rather than a total waste of points.

Captain Stupendous
November 13th, 2019, 01:19 PM
@Scytale (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=968) interesting idea. Even with 3 defense it can reduce average defense slightly (-25.9% if I did my math right). In theory it is like reducing any defense above 3 to 1/3 of >3 (so 6 defense is ~like 4 defense, 4 defense is ~like 3.3333). I am simplifying math a little but think the idea is interesting (even if needs worded better). I do like that it does not seem overpowered when stacked with Gothlok or any of the Attack boosters. For wording, this is slightly better but seems too formal, maybe others have ideas:
FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of <unit> rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.
The most interesting aspect of the aura is that it is more punishing for higher-defense units (or anyone in Raelin's aura). And, as you note, it really doesn't stack well with any other defense-reducing powers.

I like that wording.


Awful Fear Aura (just spitballing a name)

All enemy units within four clear sight spaces who were unengaged at the beginning of this turn subtract 2 from their defense.

While I still like my suggestion for an engagement-based condition, I really like Scytale's idea as well, especially the way it punishes figures with higher defense.

One question that isn't 100% clear is how this aura would interact with Tough and similar powers. I am guessing that as worded above, the bonus shields for Tough wouldn't count towards triggering the aura, so a Gorrillinator who rolled one shield plus the automatic one for tough would not have any shields removed, despite being within the aura. This is probably a relatively simple ruling for most players to make, but I could still see it potentially tripping up new players.

All Your Pie
November 13th, 2019, 01:29 PM
I donít see why folks are bent out of shape about using Gothlokís power. As a non-C3V insider, itís his Charge thatís his signature power, not his Aura. Auras got reused a bit in Ďscape already. And any of them that put a ďcreativeĒ twist on it always felt flat. Kiovaís Gift of the Empress could have been simply +1 Defense for Einarian Kyrie and she would have been seen as just as a crappy Raelin rather than a total waste of points.
I disagree here. Sure, charge is his Valkyrie dice power, but itís not why you play Gothlok. Most of how the figure is used hinges on his bonding and aura of despair. Heís similar to Laglor in that wayóAutoloader is his Valkyrie dice power, but itís not why you draft him or what you base your strategy around.

Also, have auras been reused? 1-space attack auras, sure, but not wide-reaching things that the Kyrie tend to have. Stacking of effects almost certainly has something to do with that, though thatís less of my concern here. I donít see death chasers adding in a figure they donít bond with to get extra defense reduction.

I like aura of frailty as written, and I appreciate that it incentivizes you to attack with more dice. If you only land one skull, itís useless, so swinging with 2 or 3 dice isnít using it to its best. Iíll let more people chime in but that seems like a good way to move forward here.

lefton4ya
November 13th, 2019, 01:52 PM
Captain Stupendous - good point about Tough, also Shields of Valor. I could go either way (Gorillinators & Sentinels of Jandar need the help) as long as its clear in wording without a ruling lookup needed. As the wording suggested (Scytale's or my revision) is it is not that clear. We can worry about how best to word in editing phase so long as we agree on whether it works on Tough and Shields of Valor before or after doubling. It seems more people can live with it than other suggestions (-1D aura or reroll), and again we just need consensus from everyone even if its not your favorite suggestion.

Scytale
November 13th, 2019, 01:53 PM
One question that isn't 100% clear is how this aura would interact with Tough and similar powers. I am guessing that as worded above, the bonus shields for Tough wouldn't count towards triggering the aura, so a Gorrillinator who rolled one shield plus the automatic one for tough would not have any shields removed, despite being within the aura. This is probably a relatively simple ruling for most players to make, but I could still see it potentially tripping up new players.
It's something we talked about in Editing in VC recently. It was decided that auto shields are the same thing as rolled shields. So yes, Tough shields would count. Other powers would have the same confusion. I could try to word it more clearly, but it would probably not same very 'Scapy. I would be content to leave it as an R&C.

robbdaman
November 13th, 2019, 02:17 PM
I've played Gothlok against Warforged figures and his -1 defense was solidly efficient in making them a good deal weaker. Granted my opponent rolling bad defense rolls helped but that nerf factor was key in me winning.

I like Scy's concept as it is more unique for sure and wouldn't stack to imbalance things.

flameslayer93
November 13th, 2019, 02:57 PM
I donít see why folks are bent out of shape about using Gothlokís power. As a non-C3V insider, itís his Charge thatís his signature power, not his Aura. Auras got reused a bit in Ďscape already. And any of them that put a ďcreativeĒ twist on it always felt flat. Kiovaís Gift of the Empress could have been simply +1 Defense for Einarian Kyrie and she would have been seen as just as a crappy Raelin rather than a total waste of points.
I disagree here. Sure, charge is his Valkyrie dice power, but itís not why you play Gothlok. Most of how the figure is used hinges on his bonding and aura of despair. Heís similar to Laglor in that wayóAutoloader is his Valkyrie dice power, but itís not why you draft him or what you base your strategy around.

Also, have auras been reused? 1-space attack auras, sure, but not wide-reaching things that the Kyrie tend to have. Stacking of effects almost certainly has something to do with that, though thatís less of my concern here. I donít see death chasers adding in a figure they donít bond with to get extra defense reduction.

I like aura of frailty as written, and I appreciate that it incentivizes you to attack with more dice. If you only land one skull, itís useless, so swinging with 2 or 3 dice isnít using it to its best. Iíll let more people chime in but that seems like a good way to move forward here.

Signature power doesnít mean useful power. You can reasonably give a lot of stuff -1 Defense, even if Gothlok didnít exist. You canít reasonably give everything a charge power.

A similar example is DW7k. His signature power is Self-Destruct. His useful power is Stealth Dodge.

All Your Pie
November 24th, 2019, 09:08 PM
I've updated the OP here with the proposed Frailty Aura and the rest of the design. Everyone give it a look over and see how it hits you.

We also need a name and a starting point value. I think I had this guy named Atrixus in my initial draft, but demon names are pretty easy to spitball if we want to look at some other options.

For points...I dunno, 125? It's hard to estimate how effective Frailty Aura will be. Is it better than Orb of Vengeance? Is Vulnerability Spirit better than Andask's 5 range? Maybe we're looking at closer to 140 or so?

Fakeraistlin
November 30th, 2019, 09:50 PM
Try 125, Necosoze, Atrizus works for me as well.

The Long eared bat
December 1st, 2019, 05:45 AM
Compared to Andask. [Atrixus] influences the game after death and his spirit imo is more powerful than Andask's range. Also [Atrixus] has bonding because he is a demon darklord. So I could see him at 140.

The Long eared bat
December 7th, 2019, 08:45 AM
Is everyone ok with Atrixus as a name and 140 points.

flameslayer93
December 7th, 2019, 11:48 AM
Atrixus is a cool name.

All Your Pie
December 7th, 2019, 12:54 PM
Thinking on it more, 140 points might be a little low for -2 defense on the spirit. Testing can tell us more definitively I suppose, but 150 feels closer.

Scytale , lefton4ya , Jaur0n , thoughts on name/pricing before I call a vote for Editing?

Scytale
December 7th, 2019, 02:22 PM
No complaints about "Atrixus".

150 points seems high for a 5/6/1/3/3 unit that has to be up in front to get his benefit. It's not unreasonable, though, so it's fine as a starting point.

robbdaman
December 7th, 2019, 04:01 PM
No complaints about "Atrixus".


Itís close to Axentia, not very close but enough to confuse.

Jaur0n
December 11th, 2019, 11:28 AM
Sorry for delay, no thoughts on name,pricing etc. I defer to others in that regard.

lefton4ya
December 11th, 2019, 12:40 PM
How about 145 points ;) it's one of the missing point totals of Heroscape. Seriously though this is conjecture, looking forward to playtest. As long as it is cheaper than Taelord and more expensive than Raelin people can't complain too much.

Atrixus is fine, but maybe I am in a funny mood and/or want more european sounding/spelled names so how about:
Aetrixus or Aetreyu [sic]

The Long eared bat
December 11th, 2019, 01:56 PM
Yeah we can start with 145. Testing will prove his power. Not so bothered on the name.

All Your Pie
December 11th, 2019, 03:31 PM
Updated OP with Atrixus and 145 points, though I'm happy to keep percolating on the name a little.

Let's start a vote for editing, then. :up: from me.

Scytale
December 11th, 2019, 03:35 PM
:up:

The Long eared bat
December 11th, 2019, 03:38 PM
:up:

Tornado
December 11th, 2019, 04:28 PM
I like where you all ended up here. Good stuff.

lefton4ya
December 11th, 2019, 06:27 PM
:lol: @ 145

:up:

Fakeraistlin
December 11th, 2019, 06:46 PM
:up: still not totally sold on the name but its fine to keep going and better than what ive come up with...

All Your Pie
December 14th, 2019, 10:53 PM
Alrighty, with five :up:s Iím happy to move on to Editing here.

Tornado
December 15th, 2019, 11:12 AM
Demon names. These are tweaked versions of mythological names.
Arlas
Demorge
Erlak
Khorr
Namtaar
Rangdar
Zabnok

Ericth74
December 15th, 2019, 12:02 PM
Khorr jumped out at me.

Atrixus seems to close to Crixus to me.

Tornado
December 15th, 2019, 02:17 PM
Khorr is my favorite as well. That one one is close to two different original names.

All Your Pie
December 15th, 2019, 02:46 PM
hmm, yeah. Axentia/Atrixus didn't bother me too much, but Crixus/Atrixus definitely does. I may hit the good ol' Castlevania bestiary sometime soon and see if we can pull out some more options.

Fakeraistlin
December 19th, 2019, 09:23 PM
Khorr is my favorite as well. That one one is close to two different original names.

I prefer Khorr as well.

Scytale
January 16th, 2020, 06:06 PM
The name is still undecided, but I can get to work on Editing for the rest.

FRAILTY AURA
When a destructible object or an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Velkhor rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

DEMON'S VULNERABILITY SPIRIT 2
When Velkhor is destroyed, you may place this figure on any Unique Army Card. Velkhor's Spirit subtracts 2 from the Defense number on that card.

FLYING
When counting spaces for Velkhor's movement, ignore elevations. Velkhor may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When Velkhor starts to fly, if he is engaged he will take any leaving engagement attacks.
Suggested R&C:
Q: If an opponent's Warforged Soldier rolls one shield for defense on its two dice, is it affected by Frailty Aura?
A: Yes. Warforged Resolve adds one shield to the roll, so effectively two shields are rolled. Frailty Aura would remove one of them.

Q: If an opponent's Sentinel of Jandar rolls one shield for defense, is it affected by Frailty Aura?
A: No. The Sentinel only rolled a single shield, even though it blocks two hits. Similarly, if the Sentinel rolled two shields, one would be removed by Frailty Aura, which would reduce the roll from four blocks (from two shields) to two blocks (from one shield).General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No, Flying is an existing power.

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? Yes

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, opponent's figures would not be affected by Frailty Aura, the figure could not be placed on a different army card upon death, and he could not fly. If affected by Exploit Weakness, nearby opponent's figures would not be affected by Frailty Aura, and he could not be placed on a different army card upon dying (during that turn). Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording?

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? Frailty Aura does affect destructible objects.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? Frailty Aura could weaken enemy units for a 3rd player's attacks; this is intentional.

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? No If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy?

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? No

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? Yes If so, is that clearly worded? Demon's Vulnerability Spirit clearly only works after the figure is destroyed. How does it interact with revivals, via Glyph of Sturla or otherwise? The same way that other Spirit powers interact with Sturla.

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? No

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? Frailty Aura could weaken enemy units for a 3rd player's attacks; this is intentional.

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? No If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Frailty Aura is as mandatory as other defense-reducing powers. Demon's Vulnerability Spirit is clearly optional.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? Nothing special.

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Frailty Aura is nicely reusable. "Demon's Vulnerability Spirit" is not especially reusable, but other Spirit powers have a descriptor like "Warrior's," so we are keeping with that precedent.

22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Yes Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc.


Capitalization Checklist:

-normal attack
-special attack
-Army Card
-card
-Unique
-defense die
-Defense number


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. "Demon" is singular.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. "Darklord" is singular.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "opponent's," "Demon's," and "<name>'s" are all correct.

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. N/A


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? According to the FAQ for Enslave, the temporary owner does not get to control Spirit powers. Control returns to the original owner before this occurs.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? Nothing special.


Normal Attack Power Checklist:

1. Is it dependent on the type of space the target(s) is on? No If so, does it work clearly with double-spaced figures and destructible objects?

2. Does it affect targeting? No If so, how does it interact with Smoke Powder, Tribal Protection, Combat Challenge, Opportunity Strike, Quick Draw, and FaÁade?

3. How does it interact with Hard Targets? Nothing special.

4. How does it interact with Aura of Despair? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Marked for Destruction? Nothing special.

6. How does it interact with Vanish/Spider-Sense X/Spidey-Sense X/Disappearing Ninja/Hide in Darkness/Fleet Footed/Flutter? Nothing special.

7. How does it interact with Mask of Terror? Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with Ring of Protection? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with One Shield Defense? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Tough/Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? These powers add additional defense dice. These are added to the total "rolled" before checking for Frailty Aura.

11. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Shield(s) of Valor does not affect the number of shields rolled, rather each shield counts double. So Frailty Aura would not affect a single rolled shield (which counts as two blocks), but it would reduce two shields (four blocks) to one shield (two blocks).

12. How does it interact with Defensive Agility/Stealth Dodge/Nature's Protection/Acrobatic? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Gift of the Empress Aura? The rerolls from Gift of the Empress Aura would happen before applying Frailty Aura.

14. How does it interact with Counter Strike/Evil Eye Defense/Evil Eye Protection? Frailty Aura reduces the number of shields, so it would reduce (or eliminate) the wounds from these powers.

15. How does it interact with Evil Eye Glare? Frailty Aura reduces the number of shields, so it would reduce (or eliminate) the wounds from Evil Eye Glare.

16. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

17. How does it interact with Upgrade? Nothing special.

18. How does it interact with Stealth Armor/Sacred Band Defy Death/etc? Nothing special.

19. How does it interact with Temporal Jump? Nothing special.

20. How does it interact with Cell Divide? Nothing special.

21. How does it interact with Exoskeleton/Redundant Systems? Nothing special.

22. How does it interact with Expendable Rabble? Nothing special.

23. How does it interact with Purple Heart? Nothing special.

24. How does it interact with Dying Swipe/Rupture? Nothing special.

25. How does it interact with Teleport Reinforcements? Nothing special.

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? Nothing special.

27. How does it interact with Scatter and Scurry? Nothing special.

28. How does it interact with Defensive Vault? Nothing special.


Movement Power Checklist:

1. Does it allow leaving engagement attacks? Yes

2. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? These powers are not triggered during flight, but can be triggered upon landing.

3. How does it interact with Slippery? N/A

4. How does it interact with Cyberclaw/Improved Cyberclaw? He can ignore Cyberclaw while flying, but can be Cyberclawed before taking off or when landing.

5. How does it interact with Swirling Vortex? He can ignore Swirling Vortex while flying.

6. Is there any way the figure can be forced to end its movement on an illegal space? No

7. Is it a space-by-space move power, or a teleport-like place power? It is a modification of space-by-space movements. Is it clear in the power which one it is? Yes

8. How does it interact with bonus movement powers, such as Movement Bonding or Jandar's Dispatch? Flying can be used with bonus movements.

9. How does it interact with Shield Push? Flying can only be used with Shield Push if the pusher is a friendly figure.

10. How does it interact with Maneuver? N/A

11. How does it interact with Steadfast? N/A

12. How does it interact with Flying/Stealth Flying? It is Flying.

13. How does it interact with Levitation? N/A


Aura Power Checklist:

1. Is the aura intended to affect the figure with the aura? No Is this clear? He cannot be an "opponent's figure."

2. If one member of a squad is within the aura, are the other squad members unintentionally affected? N/A


Triggered Power Checklist:

Destruction Triggered Powers:

1. How does it interact with normal attacks? Nothing special.

2. How does it interact with every special attack in the game (listed here (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42201))? Nothing special.

3. How does it interact with leaving engagement attacks? Nothing special.

4. How does it interact with falling damage? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with lava field damage? Nothing special.

6. How does it interact with the Glyph of Wannok? Nothing special.

7. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with Marro Plague/Circuitry Overload/Toxic Skin/Searing Intensity? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with Cleave? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Chilling Touch/Commander's Strike/Dragon Swoop/Fledgling Acid Breath/Spiked Gauntlet? Nothing special.

11. How does it interact with Poisonous Acid Breath? Nothing special.

12. How does it interact with Dying Swipe? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Eternal Heartbreak? N/A

14. How does it interact with Healing Touch? Nothing special.

15. How does it interact with Maul? Nothing special.

16. How does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? N/A

17. How does it interact with Opportunity Strike? Nothing special.

18. How does it interact with Overextend Attack? N/A

19. How does it interact with Self-Destruct? Nothing special.

20. How does it interact with Throw? Nothing special.

21. How does it interact with Thunder Step? N/A

22. How does it interact with Trample Stomp? Nothing special.

23. How does it interact with Purple Heart? N/A

24. How does it interact with Expendable Rabble? N/A

25. How does it interact with Bloodlust/Demonblade? Nothing special.

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? Nothing special.

27. How does it interact with Furious Wrath/Engorge? N/A

28. How does it interact with Life Drain/Life Transfer Aura? Nothing special.

29. How does it interact with Swarm Sting 18? Nothing special.

30. How does it interact with Devour From Beneath? Nothing special.

31. How does it interact with Remote Detonation? N/A

32. How does it interact with Opportunistic Hero? Nothing special.

33. How does it interact with Piercing Scream? Nothing special.

34. How does it interact with Dismissive Swipe? Nothing special.

35. How does it interact with Wave of Flame? Nothing special.

Tornado
January 16th, 2020, 06:54 PM
Impressive checklist!

All Your Pie
January 16th, 2020, 11:58 PM
Khorr seemed like the most popular option, though we can discuss it a little more. We should probably finalize that before leaving editing. I’m fine with it but it sounds a little more alien than demon to me. Adding another syllable like Velkhor or Azakhor might push it a little higher for me. Definitely agreed that the Atrixus/Crixus similarity is problematic though.

Now, the checklist. For 5, it feels like Frailty Aura should affect destructible objects thematically. Since we have DOs in the set, we should probably have clarifying text either way so we wouldn’t be saving text by saying no.

18: That’s fine. I based the wording off of Finn and Thorgrim, but I checked Eldgrim and he has a “you may” in his ability so this unit should as well.

21: Similarly, the viking champions all have “Warrior’s” in front of their spirit. Arktos has a Hunter’s Aim Spirit. I don’t think the possessive has to be Demon, but if we’re following from precedent something has to be there.

lefton4ya
January 17th, 2020, 12:06 AM
Thanks Scytale

My commends below in blue.

General Checklist:
5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? Should Frailty Aura affect destructible objects? I don't think it does, but it isn't clear and should be spelled out either way.
Good point. I forgot if in FAQ if it says powers that mention figures affect destructible objects or not.

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Frailty Aura is as mandatory as other defense-reducing powers. It's not clear if Demon's Vulnerability Spirit is mandatory or not, though the FAQ makes it clear other Spirits are optional, so that would apply here as well. Does anyone mind if I add a "you may" to Demon's Vulnerability Spirit to make it clear?
I do like adding "you may" as otherwise if none of your opponent's have uniques left then you'd have to put on yourself.

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Frailty Aura is nicely reusable. Do we need "Demon's" in front of "Vulnerability Spirit?" "Demon's" doesn't seem to add anything, and makes the power name less reusable (and longer).
I'd be OK with removing "Demon's" and also we can add "2" to the end, so "Vulnerability Spirit 2" but maybe not.

Normal Attack Power Checklist:
10. How does it interact with Tough/Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? These powers add additional defense dice. These are added to the total "rolled" before checking for Frailty Aura.
I agree, but I could see it being unclear.

11. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Shield(s) of Valor does not affect the number of shields rolled, rather each shield counts double. So Frailty Aura would not affect a single rolled shield (which counts as two blocks), but it would reduce two shields (four blocks) to one shield (two blocks).
I am leaning your way, but am not 100% sure I agree with this. Either way may need FAQ for.

Pumpkin_King
January 21st, 2020, 04:28 AM
Iím liking the position this guy is in.

Scytale
January 21st, 2020, 12:53 PM
5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? Should Frailty Aura affect destructible objects? I don't think it does, but it isn't clear and should be spelled out either way.
Good point. I forgot if in FAQ if it says powers that mention figures affect destructible objects or not.
Rules for DOs are annoyingly vague. By the letter of the law it should not affect DOs, but it's far from clear.

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Frailty Aura is nicely reusable. Do we need "Demon's" in front of "Vulnerability Spirit?" "Demon's" doesn't seem to add anything, and makes the power name less reusable (and longer).
I'd be OK with removing "Demon's" and also we can add "2" to the end, so "Vulnerability Spirit 2" but maybe not.
All Your Pie makes a good point about precedent. I don't know if I like "Demon's," but I don't have a different suggestion.

10. How does it interact with Tough/Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? These powers add additional defense dice. These are added to the total "rolled" before checking for Frailty Aura.

I agree, but I could see it being unclear.
The issue already exists for Powers like Vanish and Shocking Grasp. While that was a rare interaction in the base game, auto-skulls and "if a skull is rolled" powers are increasingly common in VC. Same ruling would apply to defense dice.

11. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Shield(s) of Valor does not affect the number of shields rolled, rather each shield counts double. So Frailty Aura would not affect a single rolled shield (which counts as two blocks), but it would reduce two shields (four blocks) to one shield (two blocks).
I am leaning your way, but am not 100% sure I agree with this. Either way may need FAQ for.
This one is a messy one, and could be ruled either way. I went with this ruling because of the bad wording of Shields of Valor: "each shield rolled counts for one additional block," which doesn't follow any other HS precedent in wording. It really should have said that it counts as an additional shield, but it doesn't. It literally says that each shield is two blocks, not each shield adds an additional shield, so I followed that with this ruling.

Either way Frailty Aura works well against Shields of Valor, but in different ways depending on the ruling.

The Long eared bat
January 26th, 2020, 10:24 AM
I am happy with the R&C. Also for the name I like All Your Pie 's suggestion of Velkhor.

Scytale
February 3rd, 2020, 07:36 PM
I updated the Checklist with the discussed items. The only open question is the name. I like Velkhor fine.

All Your Pie
February 3rd, 2020, 08:32 PM
Fakeraistlin
Jaur0n
lefton4ya

Are we happy to move forward with Velkhor as the name for this unit? I'm still happy to take other suggestions here. Once we've landed on something definitively I'll propose the vote to move into testing.

lefton4ya
February 3rd, 2020, 10:51 PM
How about Malacoda, references character in Dante's Inferno, and means "bad/evil tail" in Italian - the figure looks like a lot of depictions of the character in the book and his powers goes along with as well. The character has been referenced/copied in a lot of games as well such as Castlevania, Resident Evil, & Yu-Gi-Oh; I don't know if that is a good or bad thing if we wanted to use the same character/name, but is just a good suggestion if we didn't want to create an original name. I'd also accept any other demons from mythology or literature. Other suggestions include: Wormwood, DeSaad, Mephistopheles, Morgoth, etc, but Malacoda seems like best of those IMHO, but I'd be OK with Velkhor though as well

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Gustave_Dore_Inferno_Canto_21.jpg/800px-Gustave_Dore_Inferno_Canto_21.jpg?1580786550411

Ericth74
February 3rd, 2020, 11:46 PM
Malacoda does sound pretty good

Heroscaper Guy
February 4th, 2020, 01:42 AM
How about Malacoda, references character in Dante's Inferno (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malacoda), and means "bad/evil tail" in Italian - the figure looks like a lot of depictions of the character in the book and his powers goes along with as well. The character has been referenced/copied in a lot of games as well such as Castlevania, Resident Evil, & Yu-Gi-Oh; I don't know if that is a good or bad thing if we wanted to use the same character/name, but is just a good suggestion if we didn't want to create an original name. I'd also accept any other demons from mythology or literature. Other suggestions include: Wormwood, DeSaad, Mephistopheles, Morgoth, etc, but Malacoda seems like best of those IMHO, but I'd be OK with Velkhor though as well

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Gustave_Dore_Inferno_Canto_21.jpg/800px-Gustave_Dore_Inferno_Canto_21.jpg?1580786550411

And if not, there's a whole long list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_theological_demons (I'm fine with that name along with Belial, Asmodeus, Astaroth, Malphas,Dagon, Beleth, and Aamon)

lefton4ya
February 6th, 2020, 02:30 PM
Nice reference. I think Malacoda, Abaddon, or Merihem from that list as most looking like and having nature of this figure and powers we have, as well as cool names.

All Your Pie
February 23rd, 2020, 08:12 PM
Apologies for being slow to respond to this. Wasn't able to formulate my exact objection at first so I let things sit too long.

I do, however, feel strongly that not everything we come up with should be a reference. In fact, I feel it's most scape-y for referential names to be few and far between. Plot and theme hasn't been quite ironed out for this set, but there was some discussion about this unit being the main villain, yes? If so, the set will have a lot more character and identity if we come up with our own name rather than lifting one from mythology, however obscure.

I'd be happy to go with Malacoda and corrupt it some to give it a little more flavor, or to stick with Velkhor as previously discussed. But since I'm sure plenty of this units in this set will be discussed as having potentially referential names (and, indeed, several already do) I'd like to push back on that trend where I can.

Pumpkin_King
February 23rd, 2020, 08:55 PM
I like Malacoda, for what it's worth.

NecroBlade
March 1st, 2020, 08:24 PM
Just passing through and had a couple comments:


18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Frailty Aura is as mandatory as other defense-reducing powers. It's not clear if Demon's Vulnerability Spirit is mandatory or not, though the FAQ makes it clear other Spirits are optional, so that would apply here as well. Does anyone mind if I add a "you may" to Demon's Vulnerability Spirit to make it clear?
I do like adding "you may" as otherwise if none of your opponent's have uniques left then you'd have to put on yourself.
All powers are optional unless otherwise stated, so there's no need for "you may" here.


21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Frailty Aura is nicely reusable. Do we need "Demon's" in front of "Vulnerability Spirit?" "Demon's" doesn't seem to add anything, and makes the power name less reusable (and longer).
I'd be OK with removing "Demon's" and also we can add "2" to the end, so "Vulnerability Spirit 2" but maybe not.
I should think some kind of "X's Vulnerability Spirit" would be preferable, as a throwback to RotV and Thorgrim and Finn's "Warrior's Armor Spirit".

Scytale
March 2nd, 2020, 12:42 PM
All powers are optional unless otherwise stated, so there's no need for "you may" here.
Not true, rather the opposite in most circumstances. For example, anything that gives or removes attack or defense dice, for example, in inherently mandatory.

NecroBlade
March 13th, 2020, 10:05 PM
All powers are optional unless otherwise stated, so there's no need for "you may" here.
Not true, rather the opposite in most circumstances. For example, anything that gives or removes attack or defense dice, for example, in inherently mandatory.

I was thinking of Grimnak's ruling, but the Anubian Wolves ruling contradicts that, which is a shame because I like anything that can save words. Oh well.

Astroking112
April 10th, 2020, 01:24 PM
Something that came up in recent testing is that the Frailty Aura power text can be misleading. It sounds pretty good to me right now, but considering that this is a Master Set meant to hopefully introduce new players to the game, I figured that it was worth running this suggestion by the pod:

FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Atrixus rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

There's no mechanical change, but it reduces the room for misinterpretation and hopefully makes the intent clearer. Given that our intended audience is going to have plenty of other stuff to focus on, I think that it's worth consideration.

Scytale
April 10th, 2020, 02:06 PM
Something that came up in recent testing is that the Frailty Aura power text can be misleading. It sounds pretty good to me right now, but considering that this is a Master Set meant to hopefully introduce new players to the game, I figured that it was worth running this suggestion by the pod:

FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Atrixus rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.There's no mechanical change, but it reduces the room for misinterpretation and hopefully makes the intent clearer. Given that our intended audience is going to have plenty of other stuff to focus on, I think that it's worth consideration.
Doesn't seem any better or worse to me. I'm fine with it.

Pumpkin_King
April 10th, 2020, 05:05 PM
This reads like a good change to me.

The Long eared bat
April 15th, 2020, 08:58 AM
What name are we going for? Malacoda, Velkhor or other.
I like the sound of Velkhor personally.

lefton4ya
April 15th, 2020, 12:35 PM
I am easy going so hard for me to make a choice. I could go either way but I will try to make a preference if forced to vote.
Something that came up in recent testing is that the Frailty Aura power text can be misleading. It sounds pretty good to me right now, but considering that this is a Master Set meant to hopefully introduce new players to the game, I figured that it was worth running this suggestion by the pod:

FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Atrixus rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if more than one shield is rolled if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

There's no mechanical change, but it reduces the room for misinterpretation and hopefully makes the intent clearer. Given that our intended audience is going to have plenty of other stuff to focus on, I think that it's worth consideration.
Your change is preferred, but again ether way.

What name are we going for? Malacoda, Velkhor or other.
I like the sound of Velkhor personally.
I prefer Malacoda but Velkhor is a good 2nd choice. Also Malacoda seems like a better Utgar name, Velkhor seems more Valkrill - we sure this figure is Utgar, correct?

Pumpkin_King
April 15th, 2020, 03:55 PM
Did we not like Atrixus?

The Long eared bat
April 15th, 2020, 06:29 PM
Too close to Crixus.

Scytale
April 15th, 2020, 07:14 PM
Marcus has never forgiven Marcu for a similar slight.

Pumpkin_King
April 15th, 2020, 07:33 PM
Yeah, it seems far enough away.

NecroBlade
April 19th, 2020, 11:38 AM
Quick question, it's probably been discussed, but was the Spirit ever considered to be a clone of Frailty Aura? That is, instead of subtracting 2 Defense, subtracting a shield when there are 2 or more? Just curious if the difference in the powers feels a little weird to anyone else (Viking spirits do the same thing as their auras).

All Your Pie
April 19th, 2020, 01:39 PM
That hasnít been discussed. I think itís a reasonable question, but itís also true that the viking auras do something very simple. This figureís aura is a little more complex, so it makes sense to me that we wouldnít translate it 1 to 1 for the spirit.

I have the figure listed under Valkrill currently, since thatís where all demons have gone so far. Been some discussion of Utgar going around but Iíd need a bit more of a pitch for it I think. I prefer Velkhor for the name, Iíd rather run with something we came up with than lean too heavily on reference.

flameslayer93
April 19th, 2020, 01:43 PM
Velkhor and Malacoda both sound better than Atrixus to me, with Velkhor winning out on having the better sound to me.

NecroBlade
April 24th, 2020, 11:16 PM
That hasnít been discussed. I think itís a reasonable question, but itís also true that the viking auras do something very simple. This figureís aura is a little more complex, so it makes sense to me that we wouldnít translate it 1 to 1 for the spirit.

I don't see why. It's already written on the card once, what's the difference?

Captain Stupendous
April 25th, 2020, 08:03 PM
Finally was able to convince my housemate to do a playtest, and had a really fun time trying out Atrixus. We played on a custom map using the AotP base set tiles and a handful of Heroscape hex:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/703748880726229035/703748966113869935/4.25.20_Playtest.jpg

Tested Atrixus with this version: VALKRILL
Atrixus
Demon
Unique Hero
Darklord
Tormenting
Medium 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 6
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 145

FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Atrixus rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

DEMON'S VULNERABILITY SPIRIT 2
When Atrixus is destroyed, place this figure on any unique army card. Atrixus's spirit subtracts 2 from the defense value on that army card.

FLYING

Team 1 (500 pts) Nate: Arktos, Varkaanan Swiftfangs, Rendar Fy, B-11 Resistance Corps, M-43 Resistance Fighters x2

Team 2 (500 pts) Luke (me): Atrixus, Marro Stingers x1, Avernus, Wolves of Badru x2

Detailed game report below:
Round 1

Turn 1 Luke
Advances Atrixus and 3 Badru.

Turn 1 Nate
Arktos advances to middle and fails to kill a Badru. Advances Swiftfangs to height.

Turn 2 Luke
Atrixus kills 1 Swiftfang. Advances Badru who miss their attacks against Arktos and Swiftfangs.

Turn 2 Nate
B-11 stay back and attack. All miss.

Turn 3 Luke
Atrixus kills 1 Swiftfang. Badru advance and kill last 2 Swiftangs and deal 1 wound on Arktos.

Turn 3 Nate
Rendar Fy kills two Badru!


Round 2

Turn 1 Nate
Advances m43 down east side of map. One takes the isolated hex of height and kills one Badru with height advantage. The other two miss trying to attack another Badru.

Turn 1 Luke
Atrixus attacks Arktos and misses.
Badru attacks Arktos and misses
Badru attacks M43 on aastern elevation and pounces for the kill.

Turn 2 Nate
Arktos kills 1 Badru.

Turn 2 Luke
Atrixus misses Arktos. Badru kills an m43 with normal. Second Badru pounces the M43 next to Atrixus for another kill.

Turn 3 Nate
M43 attack Badru three times and miss every time.

Turn 3 Luke
Avernus advances up east side of map.


Round 3

Turn 1 Nate
Rendar Fy attacks and kills 2 more Badru!

Turn 1 Luke
Avernus advances up east side of map and engages a B11 and M43. Fails both flames. Attacks and kills the M43.

Turn 2 Nate
Arktos disengages with Atrixus, then attacks Avernus with height. Atrixus deals 1 wound on Arktos with the leaving engagement attack. Angered, Arktos rolls 4 skulls to deal 3 wounds to Avernus!

Turn 2 Luke
Now Avernus is angry, as this turn he succeeds 3 out of 5 flame rolls! Kills one b11 and one m43 and puts 1 wound on Rendar Fy. Then attacks Rendar Fy and misses.

Turn 3 Nate
M43 attacks Avernus and deals 1 wound

Turn 3 Luke
Avernus rolls and flames 1 M43 and 1 on Rendar Fy. Attacks Rendar Fy and rolls 3 skulls to deal 2 wounds for the kill.


Round 4

Turn 1 Nate
B11 all attack Avernus. Two miss, but the last one deals 2 wounds.

Turn 1 Luke
Avernus fails to burn B11 engaged with, then kills him with normal attack.

Turn 2 Nate
B11 two attacks on Avernus and misses twice!

Turn 2 Luke
Marro stingers advance and all miss the B11!

Turn 3 Nate
B11 kill Avernus and 1 Stinger

Turn 3 Luke
Stingers kill the last 2 B11!

Round 5

Turn 1 Nate
Arktos whiffs a big attack against Stinger

Turn 1 Luke
Stingers put 2 wounds on Arktos

Turn 2 Nate
Arktos kiills a Stinger

Turn 2 Luke
Stinger misses

Turn 3 Nate
Arktos kills the last stinger

Turn 3 Luke
Atrixus misses his attack on Arktos


Round 6
Turn 1 Nate
Arktos deals 1 wound to Atrixus

Turn 1 Luke
Atrixus deals 1 wound to Arktos for the kill.


Team 2 wins with Atrixus at 4 health remaining


Total Wounds Dealt:
Atrixus: 2 Swiftfang, 2 Arktos (1 LE attack)
Badru: 2 Swiftfangs, 1 Arktos, 3 M43 (2 pounce)
Avernus: 3 M43 (2 flame), 4 Rendar Fy (2 flame), 2 B11 (1 flame)
Stingers: 2 B11, 2 Arktos

Rendar Fy: 4 Badru
M43: 1 Badru, 1 Avernus
Arktos: 1 Badru, 3 Avernus, 2 Stingers, 1 Atrixus
B11: 3 Avernus, 1 Stinger

This was a fairly close game. Arktos and Avernus were the clear MVPs, with the B11 also pulling their weight. Atrixus came out strong killing two Swiftfangs within the first round, and then played more of a passive role for most of the rest of the game as the Badru died and I transitioned to using Avernus. However, even without order markers he played a tactical role as he occupied the center of the northern 7 hex elevation tile. This discouraged Nate from moving his B11 onto the elevation, as they would be forced to attack Atrixus and he really wanted to kill Avernus, and also didn’t want to give me the chance to place the vulnerability spirit on Arktos or his B11. Atrixus’s Frailty Aura never actively made a difference, despite many defense rolls that could have been affected. However, I both times I used the Badru to pounce, the target was within range of the aura so I was more confident taking the risk. The way the dice were rolled the aura didn’t end up affecting the outcome, but it still made the decision to attack easier and easily could have made a big difference if the roll had been different. Overall Atrixus was fun to play and I really like how he opens up some new opportunities to be aggressive with the Badru’s pounce ability without making them overpowered.

All Your Pie
April 25th, 2020, 08:59 PM
We aren't technically in testing yet, but thank you very much for the playtest. It will definitely be useful moving forward.

I'm tired of being hung up on the name, so I'm just going to call a vote for it. Between Velkhor and Malacoda. Pod 1 members, please vote for the name you prefer.

lefton4ya
Scytale
Fakeraistlin
The Long eared bat
Jaur0n

I vote for Velkhor.

I'll also hear discussion on the point NB raised if anyone in the pod feels strongly about it. I'm not overly concerned though. Finn's aura technically works different from his spirit, and Eldgrim doesn't even have an aura. But we can fiddle with the power a little bit before we vote for testing.

I'm agree with AK's suggested wording for Frailty Aura, I'll update that to the OP. Scytale, have we missed anything from the checklist that needs addressed still?

Captain Stupendous
April 25th, 2020, 10:47 PM
We aren't technically in testing yet, but thank you very much for the playtest. It will definitely be useful moving forward.

Yeah, I only realized that after the game. Thought this guy was in playtesting... I'll definitely check more carefully before my next game haha. Still a really fun time and glad to see how he worked with the wolves of Badru.

lefton4ya
April 26th, 2020, 04:48 PM
Malacoda seems like a better Utgar name, Velkhor seems a better Valkrill name, so f we are making this unit Valkrill then my vote is Velkhor, otherwise Malacoda.

The Long eared bat
April 27th, 2020, 05:30 AM
Velkhor for me.

Scytale
April 27th, 2020, 10:58 AM
Velkhor
Scytale, have we missed anything from the checklist that needs addressed still?

I'll need to update it when we lock in the name, but otherwise we'll be ready.

All Your Pie
April 29th, 2020, 03:41 AM
Reading lefton as a vote for Velkhor, thatís enough for me (I donít see much reason to bring a demon into Utgar when Valkrillís where they normally live). Iíll update the op accordingly and double-check things before we move forward.

Scytale
April 29th, 2020, 10:45 AM
Reading lefton as a vote for Velkhor, thatís enough for me (I donít see much reason to bring a demon into Utgar when Valkrillís where they normally live). Iíll update the op accordingly and double-check things before we move forward.
Great. I updated the Checklist with the new name. Here's a link to the Editing Checklist (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2342532#post2342532) to be added to the OP. It also contains the edited power wording and R&Cs for the OP.

All Your Pie
May 1st, 2020, 04:29 PM
Everything's set up here, so I'll propose a vote for playtesting.

:up: from me.

Scytale
May 1st, 2020, 06:43 PM
:up:

lefton4ya
May 1st, 2020, 07:03 PM
I think we all have consensus on a name and powers, but are we all in agreement on Left box and Right box stats?
Type: Unique Hero
Species: Demon
Class: Darklord
Personality: Tormenting
Size: Medium 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 6
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 145