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flameslayer93
May 19th, 2019, 12:20 AM
In keeping with the goal of diversity of all 24 units in the set, I felt it was a good idea to open a thread where we can discuss how many times we should (or shouldnít use) various mechanics in the game.

Special Attackers - RotV actually had 3 Special Attacks through 16 units. Without trying to create a perfect ratio of SAís to Units, I think we can get away with 4 or 5 Special Attacks in this set since we have 24 units.

Now, likely Special Attackers based on the current workshops and the brainstorming thread indicate that we have 2 Special Attackers already: The Eldrazi Ruiner and Chandra. A potential 3rd could be Jace.

Flyers - Flying is one of those things that are generally determined by the mini, but we can incorporate other flyers based upon what the unit calls for, like Vampires having Flying.

We already have 2 Guaranteed Flyers with Ob Nixilis and the Pheonixes. The Lantern Geists will likely also have Flying. I donít think we should have too many more figures that are dedicated to flying here after that. Maybe a Vampire, but Iíd be ok without it.

NecroBlade
May 19th, 2019, 04:06 PM
I haven't seen a convincing Special Attack for Jace yet, but the numbers (4-5 total) check out.

I think you may be correct that Ob, Phoenixes, and Geists may be our only fliers, which sounds acceptable (RotV only had Mimring and Raelin, so that's right in line, though as you say it's really up to the minis).

A few other mechanics to keep in mind:

Additional movement: we're already talking about this for both the Ruiner and the Phantoms (only Tarn really count for RotV, Airborne maybe and Marro Warriors if you really want to stretch).

d20 powers: I don't think we're in danger of overdoing these so far, but it is something we should use in moderation (5 units in RotV -> 7-8 here).

Finally, this guy:
http://www.hottoys.com.hk/photos/PD13750876235Q2.jpg

Astroking112
May 19th, 2019, 04:16 PM
Avacyn (the angel statue) is also a likely candidate for flying if I remember correctly, although perhaps the design will stray away from it if it's made out of stone. If either Sorin or Nahiri do become vampires, we could always stray away from flying with the right theme.

I don't think we've really been discussing a Special Attack for either Cyberpunk Jace or Illusionist Jace. Neither seem like they really need it to me from a first glance.

NecroBlade
May 19th, 2019, 04:20 PM
Forgot about Avacyn, but she is likely in my opinion. I haven't been swayed toward adding a vampire somewhere (preferably we can explore historical angles for those figures).

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2019, 04:21 PM
I missed Avacyn as a probable flyer, but that’s well within reason.

RotV had 4 cheerleaders, although 3 of them serve other purposes. 1 straight cheerleader sounds about right, but having 4-6 units with a tacked on cheerleader power probably will be fine.

Jace and/or Illusions will likely have a movement power as well, so we should start to be wary of those.

Notably, we only have 1 self-booster right now in Cyberpunk Jace. We can probably get away with another 1 or 2, since we do have so many units.

Resurrects we should keep down, imo. The Pheonixes make sense. Maybe Lily as a Necromancer if thats the direction their pod wants. I wouldn’t consider a one-turn raise all zombies for an attack as a resurrect.

OM play is something that hasn’t been done in the official MS’s. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it here though. ‘Scape has advanced mechanically, so I’d say a unit who’s primary thing is to screw with OM’s is welcome. Maybe 2, but only maybe.

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2019, 04:22 PM
Also, someone suggested a special attack for Jace in the Brainstorming thread, so I included it as a possibility.

Astroking112
May 19th, 2019, 05:45 PM
Forgot about Avacyn, but she is likely in my opinion. I haven't been swayed toward adding a vampire somewhere (preferably we can explore historical angles for those figures).

I personally prefer the loose take on Vlad the Impaler for Sorin and a gladiator for Nahiri to get some historical themes in the set, but the pale skin makes them likely candidates for vampires should their pods take them down that route. It's something that we should keep in mind.

OM play is something that hasnít been done in the official MSís. That doesnít mean we shouldnít do it here though. ĎScape has advanced mechanically, so Iíd say a unit whoís primary thing is to screw with OMís is welcome. Maybe 2, but only maybe.

We already have a glyph focused on OMs as well. I'm okay with an OM-focused unit (and potentially a second one if both designs are very distinct and equally compelling), but we shouldn't make too many of those.

capsocrates
May 26th, 2019, 06:02 PM
I like the thinking behind and in this thread. :up:

Scytale
June 24th, 2019, 03:59 PM
This thread does not just point out something of great importance, it doesn't go far enough.

Aside from what's listed, there are other very basic design decisions that need to be made at the high level. If 90% of the units are ~100pt heroes with 4 Attack/4 Defense that fight for Jandar, we have a very lame product. Someone should be overlording this project from a high level to ensure a variety of point costs, generals, powers, unit roles, etc.

NecroBlade
June 25th, 2019, 10:39 PM
That's absolutely something we'll all be keeping in mind. Good to have it here so we don't forget.

flameslayer93
June 29th, 2019, 09:35 AM
We’ll definately have to watch that, Scy.

I brought something along the lines of that in Cyberpunk Jace’s thread, mentioning that units need a variety of attack scores.

NecroBlade
June 30th, 2019, 12:35 PM
Stat spreads and roles do need variety, too. I often tried to push beyond 5/6/2/3 Ranged units and 5/1/3/4 melee units in C3V (which are far to common). I like the consciousness of a "defender" role for Gideon, even if it's not settled or doesn't end up in that direction.

Astroking112
August 4th, 2019, 03:10 AM
I just skimmed through everything that we have in the pipeline currently to get a quick update on it all. Nothing's finalized yet, but it should be useful to get an idea of the different ideas being tossed around, especially in terms of seeing what kinds of holes we might need to keep an eye out to fill in the future.

Here's a quick overview of where the project is at right now:

Pod 0 Units:
:valkrill: Eldrazi Ruiner - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55794)
The design has a direction and we're just working out the name and traits before passing him on.
He currently has a multi-targeting Special Attack and the capability to pull in figures closer to him.
Statline: 8 Life, 5 Move, 1 Range, 6 Attack, 4 Defense, roughly 200 points

:vydar: Jace Beleren - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55796)
We just need to settle the name at this point. Tetsuo Tyrell? Jydel Gibson? Who will win? Tune in next week to find out.
The design has a form of Mind Control against Unique Heroes and a self-wounding power to boost his own attack.
Statline: 6 Life, 5 Move, 4 Range, 3 Attack, 2 Defense, roughly 100 points

:vydar: Leyline Phantoms - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55798)
There are still a couple of directions that we're debating.
There's a consensus for some kind of limited teleport and a defensive power (leaning towards anti-range of some sort).
We've already got some ideas for the statline, but that might change based on the final powerset we settle on.

:jandar: Honored Soul-Guides - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55797)
The design is aiming to briefly let you bring back your Unique Heroes that die near them for one last turn.
Also has Stealth Flying.
Statline: 2 Figures, 5 Move, 1 Range, 2 Attack, 4 Defense, roughly 50 points

Pod 1 Units:
:jandar: Gideon Jura - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55873)
The direction is towards a defender type of a unit that can pull opponents in and divert their attention.
Statline: 6 Life, 5 Move, 1 Range, 3 Attack, 4 Defense

:utgar: Chandra Nalaar - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55874)
The design seems like it'll be focused on an offensive Special Attack similar to Mimring's Fireline.
Statline: 6 Life, 5 Move, 7 Range, 3 Attack, 2 Defense

:utgar: Ob Nixilus - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55874)
The impression that I got was that there is not yet a complete consensus, but I saw indication of a negative aura and a negative "Viking Spirit."
I'd be surprised if this doesn't have flying.

:utgar: Ukushia Pride - Design (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55875)
The consensus seems to be to use one of the sets of markers from Shadows Over Innistrad for limited offensive boosts to the squad, along with a negative water power.
Statline: 3 Figures, 6 Move, 1 Range, 3 Attack, 5 Defense

Glyphs:
Glyph of Recall - Testing (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55802)
Revives a previously destroyed squad figure.
Glyph of Knowledge - Testing (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55801)
Before rolling for initiative, you can look at a random Order Marker from each opponent.

Terrain/Scenarios:
We're still discussing the overall setting for AotV (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56017), but early consensus seems to be pointing towards the Sea of Sand. The Cryptolith Destructible Object (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55800) design is pretty solid at this point, but we need to settle some more of the story before giving it a proper name.

Scenarios won't be entering the design stage until we have some more units nearing completion and a firmer grasp on the overall setting.

NecroBlade
August 7th, 2019, 10:13 PM
Awesome recap, Astro. And all that in about 4 months!

Maklar the Silver Prince
August 22nd, 2019, 12:41 AM
Not entirely sure if it's doable, but would it be possible to get an Ullar squad out of the AotV figs? Ullar squads seem to be particularly rare in the custom realms, and a unique squad seems just about unheard of. The Elite Onyx Vipers are the only official units I can think of, and I'm not sure the last time I saw a Ullar unique squad on a customs thread. I know we don't have a ton to work with, but maybe maybe maybe the phoenixes would work?

flameslayer93
August 22nd, 2019, 01:16 AM
Not entirely sure if it's doable, but would it be possible to get an Ullar squad out of the AotV figs? Ullar squads seem to be particularly rare in the custom realms, and a unique squad seems just about unheard of. The Elite Onyx Vipers are the only official units I can think of, and I'm not sure the last time I saw a Ullar unique squad on a customs thread. I know we don't have a ton to work with, but maybe maybe maybe the phoenixes would work?

Believe me, I really wanted to use the tree dudes as unpainted Ullar units. But, the C3V is using them. At least there are 2 elf squads we can play with after the set is done.

Astroking112
August 22nd, 2019, 04:41 PM
I'd also like to see an Ullar Unique squad for more variety in generals, but I'm not sure how realistic it is for our main set. The two squads that immediately came to mind for Ullar were the elves, who are unsuitable to our current plans, and the tree golems, which C3V is already using. I would think that Nissa Revane will be an Ullar Hero at the very least, but it remains to be seen just how many other units would end up under him in this set.

As for the pheonixes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)), I believe that they fit best under Einar. They were associated both with royalty and purple coloring, and the red color scheme won't clash as much with Einar's orange as it would with Ullar's green or the other generals (I also don't like having the pheonixes follow Utgar--despite their similar appearance to the Fire Elemental--given that he's the evil general). I could see the Pod with them settling on another general and making it work, but they just feel like a natural fit for Einar to me. :shrug:

Pumpkin_King
August 29th, 2019, 03:54 PM
I'd argue still that we should include the tree men in our second-tier "unpainted figures" set.

Astroking112
August 29th, 2019, 04:03 PM
If you're talking about the Pummelroot Elemental, then I disagree. The sculpt is already being used by C3V, and we're trying to maintain compatibility with them and the SoV. Double-dipping on a sculpt goes directly against that.

Pumpkin_King
August 29th, 2019, 04:52 PM
With the second-tier ones we discussed they’re already not SoV-compliant, is the thing.

We’ll cross that bridge later though.

Scytale
September 26th, 2019, 10:55 AM
As I've been exposed to more units in Design, I'm starting to see a disturbing trend.

Here are part of this project's Mission statement (emphasis mine):
3. To create balanced units that are relatively simple, easy to understand, and feel at home in a self-contained set together. Units will come from a wide range of themes, and capture the diversity of theme Heroscape is beloved for.
So far the stuff sent to me to Edit for Pod 0 has not fit this definition. The Honored Soul Guides' Last Will, Testuo Tyrell's Mind Jack, and Ozuul's Gravity Pull are not what I consider relatively simple. I won't pretend that we're doing any better in Pod 1 either.

It seems to me this goal is a very good one if we're aiming to create an entry point for new players. Those players would want Syvarris and Thorgrim, not Mika Connour and Eltahale. But we appear to be leaning toward the latter, not the former. I think we need to take a good, hard look at the overall direction and decide if we're doing the right thing.

Pumpkin_King
September 26th, 2019, 02:25 PM
....yeah. Might be worth a re-evaluation.

Astroking112
September 26th, 2019, 02:38 PM
Thanks for pointing this out, Scytale. I think that it's a very revealing trend: the majority of these units on their own don't seem very complex, but taken together it's noticeably more complexity than RotV. Looking at the entire Pod 0, I feel like Tetsuo Tyrell is our simplest design. It's worth taking a look at how we can simplify these designs to make the entire batch more approachable.

My first reaction is that Ozuul's current direction can work, albeit streamlined, and that the Honored Soul-Guides may need to go back to Design. Project Velnesh is in a weird space right now, with a strange power set that's similar to the Ninjas of the Northern Wind but with its own twists.

Meanwhile, I think that Tetsuo himself can't be simplified any further, and the Mind Jack is something that even new players will be able to pick up on, but he should of course be under scrutiny as well.

flameslayer93
September 26th, 2019, 02:39 PM
I don’t think Gravity Pull is that bad. You pull small/medium figures closer to Ozuul. The rules for it could be a bit much however.

I do agree that Mind Jack, Last Will, Double Fireline, Energy Whip... could be a hair much. I’m willing to take a step back on the designs thus far. Its just a matter of figuring out what is both novel and simple. Good call, Scytale.

Pumpkin_King
September 26th, 2019, 04:30 PM
Don’t get me wrong, I like Mind Jack a lot. But it may be worth trying to simplify it.

Pumpkin_King
October 4th, 2019, 04:09 PM
Something that may be worth keeping in mind is a point total spread.

flameslayer93
October 4th, 2019, 11:09 PM
Something that may be worth keeping in mind is a point total spread.

Yup. Thatís part of why Iíve been rooting for some of the squads to be cheaper if possible. ;)

flameslayer93
May 6th, 2020, 02:33 PM
Just a quick note, somebody noted that of our squads the vast majority of them paint themselves as melee. A few may be passable as range, but we don’t have to force it.

Of those that are passably ranged we have:

-Illusionary Projections: These are the most obvious ranged squad. The illusions appear to be wielding blue fireballs or something.

-Flamewing Phoenixes: The firebirds could have some sort of short range firebreath, either as a special or normal attack.

-Eldrazi Scions: They have tentacles that we can tag as Reach-capable, or they could have some sort of time/gravity special attack at range. Either option is feasible here, being shrimp from outer space.

-Lantern Geists: Theyre already well along in the process, but if we route back to design on them we can give them some flavor of range. Could be a shriek, could be magic. That would also help distinguish them from existing ghosts if Last Will doesn’t pan out.

With a total of 9 squads, several of whom will likely be beefy melee guys, I think if the AotV group can find room for 2 or 3 ranged squads that will go a long way towards diversifying and making the final project feel complete.

Edit: We’ll also have to worry about all the melee squads being beefy. I think we can task ourselves to keep them all from being 100 pointers.

NecroBlade
May 9th, 2020, 05:13 PM
As long as we get a little bit of range on one non-Projections squad (Phoenixes or Scions, most likely) I think we're fine. It just is what it is with what's available, trying too hard will probably produce poorer results than just sticking true to theme.

The squads (especially melee) being mostly the same points is certainly a concern we will have to keep an eye on.

capsocrates
May 13th, 2020, 11:36 AM
I like the idea of giving the Lantern Geists 4 range.

I'll look through our designs again with an eye for simplicity soon

NecroBlade
May 13th, 2020, 10:44 PM
I'd like to try some other tweaks first, but that could be a possibility.

flameslayer93
October 9th, 2020, 07:47 PM
Hopping back in here, I did a little ticker of where the units are currently at to see what variety is needed and if we should be changing anything based on those numbers...


life(hero) 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 8
troops(squad) 2 3 3 3
move 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5f 5 6f 7
range 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 7
attack 2 3r 3r 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 5 6
defense 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
points 50s 60s 80 90 100s 110 110* 110s* 120 190 ?** ?**
total units: 12


f indicates flying unit
r indicates ranged unit
s indicates squad unit



*based on suggested price changes so far for Ukushisa Pride and Vekhor

**the two ?'s are heroes who are likely to be 90-110 ptsBased on this, I think the squads are in good points diversity shape, though future designs can certainly go for the 70-80 point range and 130+ range without feeling like they are stepping on others's toes within the master set.


The heroes are less well spread, but there are a lot more heroes to design. I would encourage 1-2 filler heroes, some 40-80 point heroes, and maybe an expensive hero or two to fill the void that Velkhor left (145 now, but probably going down to ~110). I would recommend that nothing goes past Ozuul's impressive 190 points, but a unit at Drake 2.0 levels would certainly be within reason.


For life on heroes, the most common numbers in RotV were 5 and 4 (and comically, the life number on heroes matched the number of heroes with that life for all 3 life scores :lol: ). Right now most of the heroes have 5 or 6 life. It would be cool to see some low life units again, even if they have deathwalker syndrome.


For troop counts, we don't have lot of control over that. I mostly included the stat so that I could keep track of the ticks :lol: .


Move counts, 5 is the most common number. Interestingly, both of the 4 move units designed so far have some sort of movement bonus built in (Headlong Charge and Shift). This is probably in-line with RotV, since one of the two 4 move units had a movement boost (however unreliable). I wouldn't be entirely shocked if either of the shadow squads ended up having a static move of 4. We probably should try to include more 6 movement units in AotV.


Basically, everything is melee so far. Ozuul can proxy short range by sucking units in, but he's still technically melee. Pyria is ranged, but she encourages getting into melee too. So, we really only have 1 unit who plays like a ranged unit rather than a part timer. We haven't gotten to most of the mage planeswalkers yet, but I would suggest 1 or 2 are dedicated ranged units. We can't really sell melee units as ranged, so lets make the apparently ranged units, really ranged.


For attack scores, there's lots of 3's. And honestly, I think it's too many 3's given the troops we have done and then we have to consider caps's question/suggestion to lower the attack and raise defense (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2422635&postcount=312) of the Velnesh Alphas. Our saving grace right now is that some of our units can boost their attack scores (or use a special attack with a higher attack score). But since there were quite a few 2A's in RotV (and 3 of the units in SotM even had 2 or less Attack despite many of the units getting scaled up in terms of raw power), I think we can do a little bit of scaling units down. The Alabastar Sentinels would probably be good unit to have their attack go down to 2 to make them similar to the Izumis since they are situationally tough or fast. If we did that, we could give Headlong Charge a +1 Attack bonus to actually let them deal damage.

Defense... it's all 2, 3, or 4. And a lot of 4. I know there's a lot of hate for making high defense units, so we only went with part-time high defense units so far. We could reasonably give something a higher defense, but I'm not 100% sure if we should hack away at the Alabastar Sentinels or the Honored Soulguides's current designs since right now (other than Dienekes or Ozuul), they are the only two units who could feasibly be higher. The 2 heroes can slide by because they already have extra life to make up for a lower defense score. An upside to hacking up Soulguides is that the Soulguides have been in editing limbo and may end up getting redirected to design if we deem to too complex to proceed with. Alternately, the Alabaster Sentinels haven't even seen a proof of concept game to my knowledge. Another large factor is that outside of the Eldrazi Scions, we don't have a super strong argument for any other naturally high defense unit in this set. When compared to RotV... they've had 3 (NGS, Zettians, DW9K) and SotM had 2 with higher defense (Q10 and TKN).

Takeaway:
As a project, AotV is doing a good job making sure there is a spread of points (as 2 of the units in the 80-120 are squads, 7 being heroes) but will need to make sure that future designs hit varying point totals. Since most of the units that have been touched can only pass for melee without serious stretching, most of the first 12 being melee makes a lot of sense. Later designs should try to have decent range values, perhaps even one of the planeswalkers having up to 8 range, and a couple of squads having range of some sort (as has been discussed a bit earlier in the thread). 3A and 4D have been used a lot more than I personally like, and I suspect we'll see a lot more in the future.

All of this doesn't really factor special powers, but I'll try to get into that on a separate post.

flameslayer93
October 10th, 2020, 10:12 AM
Part 2


Powers:

Off-turn: 12 (2 auras) (1 spirit)
Move other figures: 2
D20: 4
Special Req other than D20: 9
Flight/Teleport: 4
Ressurect: 1
Negate: 1
Special Attack: 3
Mind Control: 1
Choice Prevention: 2
Self Boost Attack: 3
Self Boost Defense: 2
Reduce Defense on Other: 4
Aura: 2
Spirit: 1
Extra Move or Bonus Move: 3
Grants Disengagement: 5
Healing: 1
Extra Attack/AoE Attack: 4
Terrain Powers: 3

Total Units: 12
Total Powers: 25
Total Power Components: 63
Back with the second part of the ticker, the special powers. Unlike base stats, special powers really can have a zany number of things in them. I tried to break all of the powers for the AotV units down into their base components so that we could see if we are on the right track for keeping the units themselves simple. I may have missed some components, but this breakdown should still a good job at showing us where we are at.



So far we have 25 powers for 12 units, giving us an average of slightly more than 2 powers per unit. That's definitely been a trend in unit design for a long time now, both in regards to custom units, but also to units who came after RotV. But since one active goal of AotV is to be simple enough for an 8 year old to pick up (as that was originally who it was marketed to), it would be a good idea to look at cutting back on 2 power cards and minimizing 3 power cards. So far, Pyria is our only 1 power card, and while Heroes in RotV general had 2 powers (only Agent Carr had 3, and they basically merged them into 1 power on later designs), most of the squads only had 1. While I'm not suggesting that we need to drop the second power on all of our squads, as those powers are what help define them in the overall game, they certainly won't help define them in the Master Set.


Total power components (basically, this power is a special attack using special attack rules, has lob rules, is only used once per game, all squad figures must use it and hits everything adjacent to them... wait, that's Grenade Special Attack) is a scary number at 63, but to be fair, most powers have several components. Grenade Special Attack has 5 components alone, just to be a power that isn't that great. It's important to remember that powers that trigger others basically add in the components of the triggered power a second time, because you are using that power a second time. So far, only Blink from the Velnesh Alphas have done this, so we should look to reduce this during future design steps and if units go back to design we could look to drop over the top powers.


Off-turn powers are powers that either take effect when it isn't your turn or are always on. Auras like Velkhor's are still technically on even during opposing turns (and this is relevant because 3+ player games exist!), so while there are a lot of off-turn powers, some can be justified. Lava Resistance, for example. Right now, the main units who come to mind as being overly busy with "off-turn powers" is Dienekes and Velkhor. Does Dienekes need both Tether of Logos and Combat Challenge in terms of the Master Set in general? Does Velkhor need both Frailty Aura and Demon's Vulnerability Spirit? I don't know yet. Regardless, we should think of these things (and while I personally don't like trashing on a Pod's units when many of the users aren't really around to help lead a potential new design for them, I certainly have to work in the best direction of the project). Regardless, later designs need to have more powers that aren't off turn since almost half of the powers in AotV take effect outside of your turn (and I didn't count Mindjack's control into this, as that requires your turn to activate in the first place).


Move other figures is in a good spot, and I'd suggest that we don't create too many more units with that component.


We are keeping pace with RotV as far as rolling the D20 go, and I suspect we could do about 3 or 4 more designs where the D20 is the preferred method of determining if the power can trigger.


We do have a lot of powers that have a special requirement to trigger, but these special requirements are generally fairly easy to pick up on and strategize around. Things like a unit must be destroyed by Vlad to activate Vlad's attack aura may be an issue, so we should make sure that any designs we have done don't have needless requirements in the picture of AotV. It's highly unlikely we will be passing anything that is game-breaking into the meta at large, so we need to be thinking in the short box from here.


Flying and teleporting powers are probably fine. I would suggest we have no other teleporting units just to keep the Velnesh Alphas distinct, but since all of the winged units are likely to have some variant of flying we are fine (https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/444736201824403458/764463294056235028/this_is_fine_meme.jpg).



Resurrection powers have been a thing some RotV, and even the campaign in BtfU had a rule for resurrection a downed dungeon crawler with the potion. We do have a glyph that lets you resurrect squad units (hah! I didn't forget about glyphs and towers) so if the Pheonixes or Lilianna don't have resurrection powers that'd be great. I'm not going to say we shouldn't have them, but... we shouldn't have them from a statistical Point of View.


Only the Soulguides negate other units's powers at this time. We can get away with one other unit doing it, but since its literally only been done like three other times in the game (Morsbane, Kira, Glyph of Negation from BtfU), we really don't need to do it again.


From the OP:

Special Attackers - RotV actually had 3 Special Attacks through 16 units. Without trying to create a perfect ratio of SA’s to Units, I think we can get away with 4 or 5 Special Attacks in this set since we have 24 units.Right now we have 3 of the 5 suggested SAs. Special Attacks are loud, fun, and explosive. We should make sure any later Special Attacks are well warranted for the design.



Tetsuo is the only unit with a mind control feature, and I suspect he'll be the only unit with one. Also, he should probably be the only unit with one.


So far, only 2 powers prevent choices: Combat Challenge forces you to attack Dienekes and Gravity Pull forces Ozuul to use Cushing Vortex Special Attack. Normally choice denial is limited anyway, but for the record I think we are *fine* on this statistic. I wouldn't suggest going any higher than 2 powers that use a choice denying mechanic, however.



3 Units can boost their own attack right now, which is a little worrying since RotV only had 2 units boost their own attack, and we haven't gotten through most of the units yet. It may be wiser just to give units who can boost their own attack a higher attack in general sometimes.


Self Boost Defense is close behind, letting 2 units do it. Nothing from a Master Set so far has let you do this yet, but that doesn't mean we can't do it ourselves as we have 24 units to make feel unique from each other. Echoing what I said before though, it may just be wiser to give them a higher defense.


4 powers can reduce the defense of others... which is a little concerning right now. 2 of those powers are tied to Velkhor however, which is less bad than saying 4 individual units can cut defense. Since "defense is bad" has been a common theme from discussions ever since Raelin 1, I do get why we've used the power component a lot. I would suggest that we either modify existing designs to remove a power with it, or design the rest of the master set without it.


2 Auras so far, Vlad and Velkhor. Vlad's Aura is an adjacency one in a similar vein to the vikings (and DW9k), while V's doesn't require adjacency in a similar vein to Raelin. We can probably make more adjacency aura powers and not hurt the master set proper.


1 Spirit power, which is a bit of a shame because of how unique they made the viking bros play in RotV. If later designs confer spirit powers, I'm not going to complain and statistically, we are in great shape for a second one.


Bonus movement powers may need to be limited in future designs. They make fast units play faster, defenders get into the action, or let you hurl yourself onto Migol's Tomb so you can kill the big bad dragon yourself.


A multitude of powers grant disengagement, but some of that is tied into powers that let you move other figures, like Gravity Pull. Strangely, we don't have Disengage in the mix anywhere. We probably should have 1 unit know how to Disengage, and maybe a second use Phantom Walk as those are common powers.


A single healing power is good, and that's probably all we need considering the glyph of healing is also in the box.


4 powers let you get extra attacks in, or at least drop an AoE effect to hit multiple figures. None of them are on squad units yet, so maybe it would be a good idea for a future squad design to hit multiple things at once in a similar vein to the Airborne Elite. For the heroes side, we can reasonably do another couple heroes with multi-attack potential. Double Attack should get used somewhere, if applicable.


Terrain requirements or terraforming come up 3 times in the designs so far. While RotV didn't do a lot of this, SotM and BtfU had zero issue with terrain becoming a factor in gameplay. Right now, I have no issue with them, however it is pretty funny to see Lava Resistance in here. But hey, Othkurrik works on swamp so why not?


Takeaway:
Perhaps the biggest takeaway is that we should be looking to make more 1 power cards, and probably using some of the more common powers to help cut down on the number of power components we are using. While in the greater meta all of what we have done so far is probably for the better, we need to start creating units with better regards to AotV and simply accepting that a unit from AotV may be overshadowed by a lot of expansion things simply because those expansion units have cooler powers like Queglix Gun Special Attack. We can balance that a bit simply by giving the units we design better stats or making them better bargains than units with really cool powers, instead of making a lot of conditional powers or powers that are so situational that they are hard to fit into an army anyway. We haven't done much of anything with Order Markers, counters/once per game powers, or boosting other units stats, so I suspect it would be wise to include a few of those unit types in later.


That being said, we have done a great job creating a lot of fun powers and even some powers that imply other, non AotV stuff, exists. I'll make another power about what directions the statistic and power tickers are suggesting, at least in regards to later and current designs.

NecroBlade
October 10th, 2020, 02:34 PM
Tackling these monsters one at a time...

Hopping back in here, I did a little ticker of where the units are currently at to see what variety is needed and if we should be changing anything based on those numbers...


life(hero) 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 8
troops(squad) 2 3 3 3
move 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5f 5 6f 7
range 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 7
attack 2 3r 3r 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 5 6
defense 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
points 50s 60s 80 90 100s 110 110* 110s* 120 190 ?** ?**
total units: 12


f indicates flying unit
r indicates ranged unit
s indicates squad unit



*based on suggested price changes so far for Ukushisa Pride and Vekhor

**the two ?'s are heroes who are likely to be 90-110 ptsBased on this, I think the squads are in good points diversity shape, though future designs can certainly go for the 70-80 point range and 130+ range without feeling like they are stepping on others's toes within the master set.

Thanks for this. As suspected, 3A and 4D are leading. Agreed on the rough diversity: squads falling in between, maybe one more expensive, and maybe one even cheaper are all good places to be.


The heroes are less well spread, but there are a lot more heroes to design. I would encourage 1-2 filler heroes, some 40-80 point heroes, and maybe an expensive hero or two to fill the void that Velkhor left (145 now, but probably going down to ~110). I would recommend that nothing goes past Ozuul's impressive 190 points, but a unit at Drake 2.0 levels would certainly be within reason.


For life on heroes, the most common numbers in RotV were 5 and 4 (and comically, the life number on heroes matched the number of heroes with that life for all 3 life scores :lol: ). Right now most of the heroes have 5 or 6 life. It would be cool to see some low life units again, even if they have deathwalker syndrome.
Agreed that having to design more heroes means the current relative lack of spread isn't as concerning. We need to be careful not to overdo it on anything in particular, but as long as the heroes are different enough from the others occupying the same point-space we're fine.

Ozuul is literally the biggest figure in the set, so it makes sense for him to be the "ceiling". I don't think there are really any other units that could have a design to challenge that anyway. Definitely want to see 2 or more lower-level (if not quite "filler" heroes). That would go a long way toward diversity on several fronts.

For troop counts, we don't have lot of control over that. I mostly included the stat so that I could keep track of the ticks :lol: .

Move counts, 5 is the most common number. Interestingly, both of the 4 move units designed so far have some sort of movement bonus built in (Headlong Charge and Shift). This is probably in-line with RotV, since one of the two 4 move units had a movement boost (however unreliable). I wouldn't be entirely shocked if either of the shadow squads ended up having a static move of 4. We probably should try to include more 6 movement units in AotV.
Yep, hands pretty much tied on that. I think we have two more squads of 3 and one of 4 (using all the shadow-zombie sculpts); a 2-, a 4-, and five 3-figure squads is pretty solid anyway.

5 was always the most common Move anyway. Throwing in a 6 or two would be fine, and the 4s having boosts is understandable. A 4 without a boost (as you say, the shadow squad) would be fine, too (I was thinking maybe the phoenixes could be 4f, but is flying technically a boost? :lol:).


Basically, everything is melee so far. Ozuul can proxy short range by sucking units in, but he's still technically melee. Pyria is ranged, but she encourages getting into melee too. So, we really only have 1 unit who plays like a ranged unit rather than a part timer. We haven't gotten to most of the mage planeswalkers yet, but I would suggest 1 or 2 are dedicated ranged units. We can't really sell melee units as ranged, so lets make the apparently ranged units, really ranged.
Another spot where we don't have a whole lot of choice. Obviously there are several more heroes that will fill Ranged roles, but squads are a bit limited. There was mention of maybe the HSG's getting short range, but that doesn't do anything for me thematically. Reach was also brought up as a possibility for the Scions, though that might look weird next to Ozuul without it. That leaves the phoenixes, which I could see having 1-2A and short range and taking a cheaper filler-squad spot. (As a note for later: maybe we do another Archmage-linked Illusion design here? Something offense-oriented.)

For attack scores, there's lots of 3's. And honestly, I think it's too many 3's given the troops we have done and then we have to consider caps's question/suggestion to lower the attack and raise defense (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2422635&postcount=312) of the Velnesh Alphas. Our saving grace right now is that some of our units can boost their attack scores (or use a special attack with a higher attack score). But since there were quite a few 2A's in RotV (and 3 of the units in SotM even had 2 or less Attack despite many of the units getting scaled up in terms of raw power), I think we can do a little bit of scaling units down. The Alabastar Sentinels would probably be good unit to have their attack go down to 2 to make them similar to the Izumis since they are situationally tough or fast. If we did that, we could give Headlong Charge a +1 Attack bonus to actually let them deal damage.
Alabasters being more Izumi-like could work. Would be fine with their defense bonus; fun to set them up a charge for where they need to go, then leave OMs off them to create roadblocks. (Side note: are they creatures cursed to turn to stone [as the name Flesh to Stone would imply] or statues that can be animated [as the name Animata and their fellow animata the Ebon Armor would imply]?)

Defense... it's all 2, 3, or 4. And a lot of 4. I know there's a lot of hate for making high defense units, so we only went with part-time high defense units so far. We could reasonably give something a higher defense, but I'm not 100% sure if we should hack away at the Alabastar Sentinels or the Honored Soulguides's current designs since right now (other than Dienekes or Ozuul), they are the only two units who could feasibly be higher. The 2 heroes can slide by because they already have extra life to make up for a lower defense score. An upside to hacking up Soulguides is that the Soulguides have been in editing limbo and may end up getting redirected to design if we deem to too complex to proceed with. Alternately, the Alabaster Sentinels haven't even seen a proof of concept game to my knowledge. Another large factor is that outside of the Eldrazi Scions, we don't have a super strong argument for any other naturally high defense unit in this set. When compared to RotV... they've had 3 (NGS, Zettians, DW9K) and SotM had 2 with higher defense (Q10 and TKN).
I don't think there's so much hate toward high defense as thematically so far everything has worked out the other way. My 5D suggestions are:

Ozuul (with or without a drop to 5A) which would make him an absolute wrecking ball and probably worth his 190 or more (as opposed to a slight decrease as-is, IMO)
HSG's since they prefer to use an OM to set up at some point before using Last Will so they don't have to summon in the start zone

The Scions or maybe even one of the shadow-zombie squads could also get higher Defense, and there are still several heroes that could take on a high-D/low-L role to fill in some gaps.

Takeaway:
As a project, AotV is doing a good job making sure there is a spread of points (as 2 of the units in the 80-120 are squads, 7 being heroes) but will need to make sure that future designs hit varying point totals. Since most of the units that have been touched can only pass for melee without serious stretching, most of the first 12 being melee makes a lot of sense. Later designs should try to have decent range values, perhaps even one of the planeswalkers having up to 8 range, and a couple of squads having range of some sort (as has been discussed a bit earlier in the thread). 3A and 4D have been used a lot more than I personally like, and I suspect we'll see a lot more in the future.

All of this doesn't really factor special powers, but I'll try to get into that on a separate post.
I think we're in a good place so far, too. We shouldn't try to force anything, but little tweaks are possible and there are plenty of units to go that can and will add more variety.

flameslayer93
October 13th, 2020, 02:23 PM
I think we're in a good place so far, too. We shouldn't try to force anything, but little tweaks are possible and there are plenty of units to go that can and will add more variety.This post echoes miles and miles of truth. Part 3 is around the corner, where I make suggestions to change existing units but mostly make suggestions about where future units should be aiming based on both parts 1 & 2 together, but at this time I haven't had the caffeine intake to work on it.

Again, only take suggestions and statistics at face value and not necessarily as the direction that pod must go or that I won't support the design decisions anyway. :)

flameslayer93
October 13th, 2020, 07:52 PM
Part 3

Based on the last couple posts, it would be a good idea to look at what changes could be implemented to current units, but more importantly what upcoming designs should be aiming for to keep this Master Set as diverse as possible.

Dienekes:
Dienekes is in a good spot right now, but if it seems like any changes need to be made, we can consider dropping Combat Challenge. In the overall metagame it is a valuable way to keep him relevant, but in terms of the MS, it likely won't be what players remember him by. This is not a change I recommend lightly, nor a change I feel is needed for now.

Honored Soulguides:
This unit has been in Editing Limbo for a long time now, and for good reason. Last Will is very complex power and has a very broad spectrum of units it can affect. At first glance, Stealth Flying is no slouch either, but that's a common power that should be taught to new players as well. Their primary power is very unique, which is a really good thing for a Master Set unit. 2 possible changes have been proposed: 4 Range and 5 Defense. It would probably be best to only implement one of these changes, but in the event Last Will is a no go it may be wise to implement both.

Ukushisa Pride:
Some have suggested making them 5 Defense and dropping the defense bonus for Combined Heat. This is a solid change. Everything else on their Army Card is golden.

Velkhor:
Velkhor's Aura is only so-so, but that's what playtesting is for. On this unit, it seems as though he is a touch overdesigned. Despite praising the use of a Spirit power in Part 2, I dont think the Aura + Spirit + Flying combo is working out well. And, I really hate this suggestion because Velkhor is so far along, but I feel less bad because it sounds like he is going to be redesigned a bit anyway. Dropping Demon's Vulnerability Spirit is probably the best for Velkhor and the Master Set at this point. Hopefully a Spirit power can be used elsewhere.

Katryn Vade (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2423738&postcount=110):
I do worry Katryn Vade has been overdesigned a bit here, but she should be distinct enough anyway. The best power to drop may end up being Oathsworn Guardian (and then replacing it with Double Attack). I'm not 100% sure if that's the best route here though. [Aspect] is quite unique and suggests we should have at least one or two more offensive powers that large and huge are immune to.

Durnipia:
Still in design, there was a suggestion to make her have a short range. I could support this idea, and I doubt it would greatly change how she would be played. Range 4 feels the best here, if not Range 1.

Alabaster Sentinels:
Still in Design, it might be a good idea to drop Flesh to Stone and drop their attack to 2. In exchange, give Headlong Charge a +1 attack bonus, and 6 defense. This would make these relatively cheap defenders still play distinctively different from the Izumi Samurai, and be another 1 power army card in the MS.

Arlinn Kord, Goldnight Outcast:
1-2 Defense and low cost

Arlinn Kord, Moon-Blessed:
Disengage

Avacyn, On Bloodied wings:
3 Life 5-6 Defense, Flying

Blighted Reavers:
4 Move

Eldrazi Scions:
7 Defense or Short Range + 6 Defense if the Pheonixes don't get it.

Flamewing Pheonixes:
D20 power that can ignore wounds or Ressurect power (if Liliana is not a Necromancer who raises the Shadow Zombie Squads). Short Range if the Scions don't get it.

Illusionary Projections:
Phantom Walk and 6 Range

Jace Beleren, Mindmage:
6 Range

Lilianna Vess:
1-2 Defense, probably will get range 6.

Merfolk Roilmage:
7 Range, probably water powers

Nissa Revane, Animist:
8 Range, possible Archmage, Arcane Riposte may not be a bad idea here

Restless Zombies + Ghoul Vanguard:
4 Move

I've left most power suggestions out since I'd rather the pods focus on how they want to proceed there. Common Powers were included, since they haven't had too much representation in the MS yet, and are already simple, not requiring special requirements to activate.

3 Units from here should have higher defense, and if either Lily or human Arlinn can get base 1 defense, that would really help create more definition in the Master Set.

4 of the heroes should be getting range, and at least 2 squads should squeak in range somewhere.

This spread still allows ample room to work with for points variance, special abilities, and unique feeling units within the master set, even if these units have a similar feel to other units from other master sets or expansions.

capsocrates
October 19th, 2020, 10:16 AM
Thanks for collecting all that data and performing some analysis, flameslayer; really valuable.

Hopefully the pod leads for each pod are reading this thread and will consider this big picture.

Pumpkin_King
October 25th, 2020, 04:25 PM
I know I've been looking for simplicity in general.

NecroBlade
October 25th, 2020, 05:45 PM
So far we have 25 powers for 12 units, giving us an average of slightly more than 2 powers per unit. That's definitely been a trend in unit design for a long time now, both in regards to custom units, but also to units who came after RotV. But since one active goal of AotV is to be simple enough for an 8 year old to pick up (as that was originally who it was marketed to), it would be a good idea to look at cutting back on 2 power cards and minimizing 3 power cards. So far, Pyria is our only 1 power card, and while Heroes in RotV general had 2 powers (only Agent Carr had 3, and they basically merged them into 1 power on later designs), most of the squads only had 1. While I'm not suggesting that we need to drop the second power on all of our squads, as those powers are what help define them in the overall game, they certainly won't help define them in the Master Set.
I heartily agree that there shouldn't be many 3-power cards (Katryn is the only one so far, would be great if we can get away with 1 more, tops). I also agree more single-power cards would be nice (in addition to Pyria, again at least 1 more wound be nice). Single-power cards get harder to do as the game goes on, though, which is fine. That means everything else is pretty much a 2-power card. Which isn't bad as long as the powers are relatively simple. Ukushisa's Lava Resistant barely counts, and Dienekes re-uses Combat Challenge. Stuff like that helps keep the complexity scales balanced.

Total power components (basically, this power is a special attack using special attack rules, has lob rules, is only used once per game, all squad figures must use it and hits everything adjacent to them... wait, that's Grenade Special Attack) is a scary number at 63, but to be fair, most powers have several components. Grenade Special Attack has 5 components alone, just to be a power that isn't that great. It's important to remember that powers that trigger others basically add in the components of the triggered power a second time, because you are using that power a second time. So far, only Blink from the Velnesh Alphas have done this, so we should look to reduce this during future design steps and if units go back to design we could look to drop over the top powers.
This is good to look at in terms of complication creep, but as most powers will have at least 2 elements and we're looking at 1.5 per this math, I think we're OK so far. The good thing about Grenades is that they're intuitive once you've parsed the whole thing. If we can help having any powers with so many components, and so many words, that's good. But there may be room for a single Trample Stomp-like power (and that may already be Gravity Pull).

Off-turn powers are powers that either take effect when it isn't your turn or are always on. Auras like Velkhor's are still technically on even during opposing turns (and this is relevant because 3+ player games exist!), so while there are a lot of off-turn powers, some can be justified. Lava Resistance, for example. Right now, the main units who come to mind as being overly busy with "off-turn powers" is Dienekes and Velkhor. Does Dienekes need both Tether of Logos and Combat Challenge in terms of the Master Set in general? Does Velkhor need both Frailty Aura and Demon's Vulnerability Spirit? I don't know yet. Regardless, we should think of these things (and while I personally don't like trashing on a Pod's units when many of the users aren't really around to help lead a potential new design for them, I certainly have to work in the best direction of the project). Regardless, later designs need to have more powers that aren't off turn since almost half of the powers in AotV take effect outside of your turn (and I didn't count Mindjack's control into this, as that requires your turn to activate in the first place).
Interesting, not something I would've thought about. RotV was 6/16 units. We're at 8/12 so far (8/24 overall). The same ratio leaves us one unit to work with. Not that we have to accomplish that, but it's something to keep in mind as enemy powers that are active during your turn increase the complexity of your own turns, even if your own units don't very much.

Move other figures is in a good spot, and I'd suggest that we don't create too many more units with that component.
This is something I wanted to keep an eye on from the beginning. It wouldn't be the end of the world if the second half of the units matched our current pace, but we're probably close to full up on these.

We are keeping pace with RotV as far as rolling the D20 go, and I suspect we could do about 3 or 4 more designs where the D20 is the preferred method of determining if the power can trigger.
Agreed. d20s are fun. Too many d20s are not. So far I think we're doing a fine job using them as needed, and avoiding them when not.

We do have a lot of powers that have a special requirement to trigger, but these special requirements are generally fairly easy to pick up on and strategize around. Things like a unit must be destroyed by Vlad to activate Vlad's attack aura may be an issue, so we should make sure that any designs we have done don't have needless requirements in the picture of AotV. It's highly unlikely we will be passing anything that is game-breaking into the meta at large, so we need to be thinking in the short box from here.
This seems to go at least part in hand with outside-of-turn powers. The more powers we keep during the unit's turn, the more triggers can be kept to timing windows and not much else.

Flying and teleporting powers are probably fine. I would suggest we have no other teleporting units just to keep the Velnesh Alphas distinct, but since all of the winged units are likely to have some variant of flying we are fine (https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/444736201824403458/764463294056235028/this_is_fine_meme.jpg).
Yeah, I don't see an issue here. Flyers gotta fly, and I don't see any other teleporting units happening (though Jace's Illusions allowing a swap with an Archmage is a possibility).

Resurrection powers have been a thing some RotV, and even the campaign in BtfU had a rule for resurrection a downed dungeon crawler with the potion. We do have a glyph that lets you resurrect squad units (hah! I didn't forget about glyphs and towers) so if the Pheonixes or Lilianna don't have resurrection powers that'd be great. I'm not going to say we shouldn't have them, but... we shouldn't have them from a statistical Point of View.
I'd be perfectly fine with the Phoenixes or one other unit having a resurrection power. More than one would be too many. We also have the HSG, but they're at least temporary.

Only the Soulguides negate other units's powers at this time. We can get away with one other unit doing it, but since its literally only been done like three other times in the game (Morsbane, Kira, Glyph of Negation from BtfU), we really don't need to do it again.
Self-negation is a bit different, though. But it's not something we need to include, either.

From the OP:

Special Attackers - RotV actually had 3 Special Attacks through 16 units. Without trying to create a perfect ratio of SAís to Units, I think we can get away with 4 or 5 Special Attacks in this set since we have 24 units.Right now we have 3 of the 5 suggested SAs. Special Attacks are loud, fun, and explosive. We should make sure any later Special Attacks are well warranted for the design.
4 or 5 would be the same ratio as RotV. :lol: Two more sounds about perfect, and perfectly doable.

Tetsuo is the only unit with a mind control feature, and I suspect he'll be the only unit with one. Also, he should probably be the only unit with one.
Agreed.

So far, only 2 powers prevent choices: Combat Challenge forces you to attack Dienekes and Gravity Pull forces Ozuul to use Cushing Vortex Special Attack. Normally choice denial is limited anyway, but for the record I think we are *fine* on this statistic. I wouldn't suggest going any higher than 2 powers that use a choice denying mechanic, however.
I don't see anything else occupying this niche, so we should be OK.

3 Units can boost their own attack right now, which is a little worrying since RotV only had 2 units boost their own attack, and we haven't gotten through most of the units yet. It may be wiser just to give units who can boost their own attack a higher attack in general sometimes.
While 3 wouldn't be a bad place to stop, I also wouldn't blink at 1-2 more. Depends on the unit and power, so we'll see what happens.

Self Boost Defense is close behind, letting 2 units do it. Nothing from a Master Set so far has let you do this yet, but that doesn't mean we can't do it ourselves as we have 24 units to make feel unique from each other. Echoing what I said before though, it may just be wiser to give them a higher defense.
I proposed such a change to the Ukushisa, but I have similar feelings here as the attack boosts. It's one of the simpler types of powers to do. (And I would like to see the Rhox and Avacyn have a power that ties them together thematically, even better if it's mild synergy, too).

4 powers can reduce the defense of others... which is a little concerning right now. 2 of those powers are tied to Velkhor however, which is less bad than saying 4 individual units can cut defense. Since "defense is bad" has been a common theme from discussions ever since Raelin 1, I do get why we've used the power component a lot. I would suggest that we either modify existing designs to remove a power with it, or design the rest of the master set without it.
Two being on Velkhor is OK with me (better if they worked the same, to cut down a little bit here). But yes this is certainly something it would be nice to avoid for the rest of the set if possible.

2 Auras so far, Vlad and Velkhor. Vlad's Aura is an adjacency one in a similar vein to the vikings (and DW9k), while V's doesn't require adjacency in a similar vein to Raelin. We can probably make more adjacency aura powers and not hurt the master set proper.
Adjacency auras are easily the safest in this category, should we want any more.

1 Spirit power, which is a bit of a shame because of how unique they made the viking bros play in RotV. If later designs confer spirit powers, I'm not going to complain and statistically, we are in great shape for a second one.
I don't feel Spirits are something that has to be done (since it was only the Vikings until Eldgrim [also a Viking] and the Varkaanan Heroes), but one on Velkhor and one (maybe two) somewhere else would be fine.

Bonus movement powers may need to be limited in future designs. They make fast units play faster, defenders get into the action, or let you hurl yourself onto Migol's Tomb so you can kill the big bad dragon yourself.
Like Attack and Defense, it's pretty simple to make powers that modify the basic stats. It's only the Velnesh and Rhox so far, but depending on how everything else goes this is part of the reason I'm not super keen on Dienekes moving friendlies.

A multitude of powers grant disengagement, but some of that is tied into powers that let you move other figures, like Gravity Pull. Strangely, we don't have Disengage in the mix anywhere. We probably should have 1 unit know how to Disengage, and maybe a second use Phantom Walk as those are common powers.
Reusing simple powers isn't bad. Not something we have to do by any means, but helps keep things relatively simple.

A single healing power is good, and that's probably all we need considering the glyph of healing is also in the box.
Agreed. Note the slight overlap with resurrection powers.

4 powers let you get extra attacks in, or at least drop an AoE effect to hit multiple figures. None of them are on squad units yet, so maybe it would be a good idea for a future squad design to hit multiple things at once in a similar vein to the Airborne Elite. For the heroes side, we can reasonably do another couple heroes with multi-attack potential. Double Attack should get used somewhere, if applicable.
Airborne Elite, Deathwings, and Vulcanmechs are I think the only Squads that hit multiple figures. If we end up with one, great, but we absolutely shouldn't go out of our way for it. Double Attack falls in the "simple, reusable" power category for me.

Terrain requirements or terraforming come up 3 times in the designs so far. While RotV didn't do a lot of this, SotM and BtfU had zero issue with terrain becoming a factor in gameplay. Right now, I have no issue with them, however it is pretty funny to see Lava Resistance in here. But hey, Othkurrik works on swamp so why not?
Lava Resistance is a nice, harmless almost non-power that ties in with Heroscape-outside-AotV. I don't see much else happening outside Durnipia (who should also be the only terrain-changing power).

I know I've been looking for simplicity in general.
But which general? There are six of them. ;)

Pumpkin_King
October 25th, 2020, 06:34 PM
I know I've been looking for simplicity in general.
But which general? There are six of them. ;)
*gags*