View Full Version : [Pod 0] Glyph of Knowledge - Testing

May 13th, 2019, 11:41 AM
The Book of "Glyph of Knowledge"

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set


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Glyph of Knowledge

Permanent Glyph
After Order Markers are placed, but before rolling initiative, you may look at a random Order Marker on one Army Card of each opponent.

The glyph used for this glyph is the Glyph of Knowledge from Arena of the Planeswalkers.

Character Bio:

-Rulings and Clarifications-

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received

Synergy Benefits Offered

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-



May 13th, 2019, 01:53 PM
For the sake of getting a fuller vision of the set, here is a list of the other glyphs that we'll be using, provided by flameslayer93:

Move +2
Attack +1
Defense +1

These are all very straightforward to transfer to normal HeroScape rules, so they aren't a part of our design process right now, but I think that they're still pertinent to the discussion around creating glyphs.

For the Glyph of Knowledge, I think that something involving Order Markers is an easy choice. It could be similar to the Glyph of Oreld (Intercept Orders) where it removes Order Markers from the opponent, or it could be slightly weaker by only letting you look at an Order Marker (or multiple) for an opponent. Perhaps something along these lines could be interesting:
After taking a turn with a figure on the Glyph of Knowledge, you may look at one unrevealed Order Marker on an opponent's Army Card.
This provides ample incentive to kill figures on the glyph or to fight around it, as you won't be able to spy on your enemy when another figure is already in that spot. If it's too powerful, we could always limit it to the start of the round (before or after rolling for initiative are good spots), or require the figure on the glyph to be unengaged.

All Your Pie
May 13th, 2019, 05:20 PM
I like the looking at an OM idea. I would prefer the trigger to be start of round rather than based on any figureís turns, though.

May 13th, 2019, 11:52 PM
I have no arguments with looking at an OM at the start of the round, but I will say requiring the figure to be unengaged is probably not needed. The effect is helpful, but not really all that strong anyway. Or at least, not as strong as Wannok anyway.

May 14th, 2019, 11:37 AM
I like looking at an OM at the start of the round as well. Simple, doesn't require any other hoops to jump through.

May 14th, 2019, 12:43 PM
Engagement would be for a different trigger than the start of the round. I agree that it isn't necessary in that case.

I'm also fine with just a simple "look at an unrevealed Order Marker" at the start of every round.

May 15th, 2019, 10:35 AM
Sounds like a consensus... are we ready to put something in the OP? We can focus discussion on that, then move forward with a vote.

May 15th, 2019, 11:01 AM
My stab at official sounding wording: "At the beginning of the round after all order markers have been placed, you may secretly look at one order marker from one opponent."

Unless we want to make it more useful for multi-player games where you can look at one order marker from EACH opponent it think that is a good start, although seems too wordy for even myself.

May 17th, 2019, 11:04 AM
I'd be fine with one random OM from each opponent.

May 18th, 2019, 06:36 PM
Random OM from each opponent? I’m cool with that. It might take a little longer to do testing for 3+ Players, but that’s ok, since they’re glyphs.

May 19th, 2019, 03:58 PM
I honestly don't think there's much of a balance difference for 3+ players. Yeah you get to look at more OMs, but they're still random. And I suppose you could tell the other players what each other is up to, but that's just a great way to guarantee your opponents are gunning to get you off the glyph if they weren't already. :lol:

May 23rd, 2019, 11:17 AM
Are we good to send this to testing?

The only unit who this could be problematic for is the Mindflayer Mastermind I think since he can pick the OM to kill. Additionally, Podge armies will take a bit of a bump down from this, but that’s ok I think because the MS inclusive armies will likely be all Podge-Based armies. We should make sure this glyph is balanced enough for competitive scenes, in the event that TD’s want to spice up their Glyph Pools. It would fantastic to have another glyph in the mix.

May 23rd, 2019, 01:29 PM
Hodgepodge armies will certainly suffer more from this than ones that focus on a common squad, but there's little that we can change about this without changing directions from looking at an OM. I don't think we should worry about getting this glyph into the competitive scene; let it happen naturally if it does.

I'm fine with looking at one unrevealed OM from each opponent. 3+ player games are already more chaotic, and it'd be fun to have a new glyph that paints a target on a player's back for those types of experiences.

As a quick aside, when we refer to a "random OM," are we intending this to be truly random? Of course the affected player can't choose which of their OMs that the other sees, but how would we stop the player on the glyph from looking at one OM over another? My impression is that they would just look at where the OMs are, choose one that they want to see, and then put it back.

May 23rd, 2019, 02:00 PM
One of my biggest pet peeves is I hate the word RANDOM used inappropriately - it is meant for dice roles or shuffle draws NOT when you pick - the correct word to use is ARBITRARY as you could have some reason just not quantifiable but it is not actually random. However every game (including Heroscape) has "randomly choose" when it is should be "arbitrary choose". Anyway, everyone is so used to the wrong usage that people know when you say "pick at random" it means "arbitrarily choose" so that is fine unless you want to satisfy my pet peeve.

May 23rd, 2019, 02:03 PM
I've always interpreted "randomly choose an OM" that way as well, although I wanted to make sure that was what we were going with. While I agree that "arbitrarily choose" is the correct term to use, I can see why the original designers went with what they did and I think that we should match that.

May 23rd, 2019, 02:04 PM
I used Randomly Choose in the way Official Scape uses it.

May 24th, 2019, 03:04 PM
Correct, "random" is Heroscape's word.

I do think we could be more clear, though:

At the start of each round, after placing Order Markers, choose one Army Card controlled by each opponent and look at a random Order Marker on each of those cards.

May 24th, 2019, 03:13 PM
I would change "an Army Card" to "one Army Card" just to be perfectly clear, but otherwise I am fine with the wording.

May 26th, 2019, 06:11 PM
Correct, "random" is Heroscape's word.

I do think we could be more clear, though:

At the start of each round, after placing Order Markers, choose one Army Card controlled by each opponent and look at a random Order Marker on each of those cards.

This looks like a great way to use this glyph. Nice work guys

May 27th, 2019, 02:36 PM
Correct, "random" is Heroscape's word.

I do think we could be more clear, though:

At the start of each round, after placing Order Markers, choose one Army Card controlled by each opponent and look at a random Order Marker on each of those cards.

This looks like a great way to use this glyph. Now work guys

Demanding demanding. ;)

June 2nd, 2019, 10:13 AM
[ignore this post]

June 3rd, 2019, 07:16 PM
Alright, if there are no more opinions on this, I think we can safely move this to testing next.

June 4th, 2019, 12:04 PM
This is probably better suited for an off-topic discussion (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2208112/biggest-rule-lawyer-pet-peeve-random-vs-arbitrary) but when someone says "random order marker" if it was truly random you would force the player to "shuffle" the order markers on the cards (without looking themselves) before picking, otherwise if shuffling is optional or not enforced, the choice is actually arbitrary as you can try to deduce either from the initial placement of order markers or the person's not-so-random reordering of markers before you pick or even if they randomly shuffled but looked at the markers before you choose, you can look at their eyes to try to deduce which is which. Of course the person would be allowed to shuffle order markers blindly before you "look at a random Order Marker" but IMHO with current wording it is not required (or do you all disagree and say it is required?).

Just a big pet peeve of mine as if you use the word "random" technically you are enforcing blind shuffling but anyone who actually forced that would be considered a rules-lawyer in my house/gaming group, as most people know when rules says things like "steal/look-at a random card" it actually means arbitrary (deduction of what it is is allowed and encouraged) and not required/enforcibly random.

Do I pick the order marker closest to me or closest to the player? :confused:


June 20th, 2019, 08:17 PM
Bumping this. Where we at?

June 21st, 2019, 10:18 AM
Looks like we're probably about ready to vote (yea or nay) on a quick editing check, then again into playtesting.

("Random" is used in Heroscape. No discussion needed there.)

June 21st, 2019, 11:58 AM
I agree that we should match the precedent of random.

If there are no other objections or concerns, then I vote YEA for an editing check before we proceed to testing.

June 21st, 2019, 01:07 PM
Ignore my arbitrary rant on the use of random. I vote YEA/Yes if my vote counts.

June 22nd, 2019, 12:41 PM
Yea for Editing.

June 22nd, 2019, 01:51 PM
Yes to Editing

All Your Pie
June 23rd, 2019, 12:53 AM

June 23rd, 2019, 12:03 PM
Yep :up:

June 26th, 2019, 05:08 PM
That’ll be plenty of votes for editing.
Scytale, care to look the OP over when you have a chance?

June 26th, 2019, 05:47 PM
Thatíll be plenty of votes for editing.
@Scytale (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=968) , care to look the OP over when you have a chance?
The name doesn't seem very 'Scapy, but other than that I see any problems with it.

June 26th, 2019, 07:31 PM
I don't know if we can change the name, since the physical glyph already says Knowledge on it.

June 30th, 2019, 12:25 PM
What's written on the glyphs themselves is actually a summary of what the glyph does, so we can pick a different name. Ideally it would also evoke the idea of looking at OMs, and possibly start with "K" (i.e. Dagmar -> Defense, Crevcor -> Common Attack). Either way we have to rely on "knowledge" sufficiently conveying "look at OMs" at a glance.

June 30th, 2019, 02:46 PM
What's written on the glyphs themselves is actually a summary of what the glyph does, so we can pick a different name. Ideally it would also evoke the idea of looking at OMs, and possibly start with "K" (i.e. Dagmar -> Defense, Crevcor -> Common Attack). Either way we have to rely on "knowledge" sufficiently conveying "look at OMs" at a glance.

All other glyphs have their name printed on themselves along with a brief explanation of the effect, though. I'd prefer to not break that precedent for the name, especially since any name that we come up with will then be harder to remember than just "Glyph of Knowledge."

June 30th, 2019, 02:49 PM
Fair enough. It does seem weird not to have both a name and a summary, but we can't do anything about what's actually printed on the glyph. I'm happy to just keep the name Knowledge.

August 4th, 2019, 02:22 AM
Hey, flameslayer93, I believe that this passed through Editing and is now in Testing. The name of the glyph looks like it'll just be Glyph of Knowledge. Do you mind updating the title of this thread to reflect these updates?

August 4th, 2019, 02:48 AM
Hey, flameslayer93, I believe that this passed through Editing and is now in Testing. The name of the glyph looks like it'll just be Glyph of Knowledge. Do you mind updating the title of this thread to reflect these updates?

On it!

Some real life things have gotten in the way recently (double shifts, getting sick, among other things), so please forgive my relative absence lately. :)

August 4th, 2019, 02:54 AM
I just noticed that there's two Pod 0s in the title. If only there could be two of each of us as well. :lol:

And no worries! I understand life getting in the way. I've just been going through everything recently to compile a status report for how things are currently shaping up.

September 2nd, 2019, 02:43 PM
I ran a test with both of the AotV glyphs last week. Knowledge had a nonexistent very poor showing, but I'm posting the report here anyway because seeing that the Glyph of Knowledge is useless sometimes is still an important data point.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Glyphs: Recall (AotV), Knowledge (AotV)
Astro: Kato Katsuro, 2x Ashigaru Harquebus, 3x Ashigaru Yari, Sentinels of Grax (540)
Leo: Jarek Guy, Kira Jax, Rendar Fy (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2224773#post2224773), 5x M-43 Resistance Fighters (540)

Kato Katsuro, 6x Ashigaru Yari, 3x Ashigaru Harquebus, 2x Sentinels of Grax
~405 Points Left
(1 Ashigaru Harquebus was revived by Recall)

Game Summary:
M-43s gained height initially, but the Ashigaru quickly retaliated and dealt more damage, annihilating over two full squads due to some solid rolls. Leo gave up on Recall because he felt like heíd probably lose two or more figures trying to reach it.
Neither of us went for Knowledge because it was on top of lava field on this map. The 50% chance of killing a squad figure to get the chance to activate it at the start of the next round wasnít worthwhile.
Recall was used by a Yari to revive a Harquebus. Since I only had two squads of them, it was appreciated despite "only" reviving 15 points, especially since it bought me an extra turn of 4 attacks and two extra turns of 3 attacks with the Harquebus.
Leo blanked and took a turn with Kira Jax at the beginning of Round 3. Probably his worst option at the time, unfortunately. An Encircle Special Attack ended Rendar soon afterward. After that, it was mostly just clean-up.

My Thoughts:
On certain maps and locations, this glyph is practically worthless. The only time that I would want to risk lava field damage to use this glyph the next round with my army is if I got Kato over there, which has no chance of happening.

Of course, other glyphs have very specific uses as well, and this can be addressed by carefully selecting maps/glyph pools.

September 11th, 2019, 07:44 PM
Don't know if/when I'd be able to do it, but we definitely want multiplayer tests with this one.

September 11th, 2019, 08:11 PM
Don't know if/when I'd be able to do it, but we definitely want multiplayer tests with this one.

For sure. I normally run monthly events on my campus for HeroScape; once I get those back up and running again, I'll try to run some multiplayer game nights to see how people like it outside of a 1v1 setting.

November 8th, 2019, 02:12 PM
From the glyph of Recallís thread, a playtest.


November 8th, 2019, 02:21 PM
Quoting it over here just for convenience:

LoveElemental and I did a game with both glyphs (Recall & Knoweledge) last weekend.

I posted a picture of the map we played on to Discord, and when I get a chance Iíll update this post with a link. Its basically a hilly map with a bunch of trees and a figure 8 road with highways close to an end of each startzone. We used 4 glyphs: Healing, Move + 2, Knowledge, and Recall.

Our game was a reinforcements game (start with 250 on the board, 210 comes in midgame on a scaling d20 roll).


Brontos + 10th Reg x1 (starter)
Banshees x3 (reinforcements)

Sentinels x1 + Imperium x1 (starter)
Sentinels x1 + Wyvern (reinforcements)

Summary: I primarily lead with 10th and she split OMs between each kyrie squad. I went for Knoweledge right away. The 10thís bullets were large ineffective but did kill an Imperium. The Sentinels did a good job of holding the line in time for Brontos to charge. Brontos was a wrecking ball of fury, but the Imperium had other plans. They used the move+2 and recalled an Imperium. The Imperium managed to get all 6 attacks vs Brontos... which flubbed miserably, only dealing 1. So, the Big Cyclops smashed one. They did get revenge and hit him hard. At one point, LE got Knoweledge and wasnít able to do much other than see my X on the last 10th. I got really lucky and got a heavily wounded Brontos to the healing Glyph (7 wounds, plus a potential wound from an LEA that wasnít bothered to be rolled for). That kept me in the game, but the Cyclops started getting wailed on the next round. My Banshees finally got in the game, and with the Wyvern dead it was Checkmate.

Results: I won. All 6 Banshees + 1 life Brontos vs 2 Sentinels.

Effects on the game - Knoweledge: It was triggered twice. Once I used it to see LEís X. I lost initative and 10th Reg figures so I couldnít capitalize on it. LEís use did little since my OMís were obvious at the point.

Effects on the game - Recall: The Imperium grabbed it and use it to help supplement their small numbers. They brought Brontos inches from death and almost won LE the game just from the extra pair of swords.

I donít think either glyph was overpowering. Recall was good, but LE and I agreed Knoweledge had a poor showing despite how useful the intel can be.

Knowledge underwhelming with these armies here sounds about right to me, honestly. I think that we should be looking to get some team or free for all games in with that one, though these tests do still help for verifying how it'll play in 1v1 games.

November 17th, 2019, 01:54 PM
Even with other armies, Knowledge will probably often be underwhelming in 1v1s. And that's OK. That makes the occasional usefulness that much more exciting, but more importantly means we have something special to offer multiplayer games. To that end, we should probably also have at least one multiplayer scenario, too.

November 17th, 2019, 04:52 PM

November 23rd, 2019, 03:38 AM
While I was doing one set of 3-player games in a drafting event (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2335150&postcount=218) I hosted yesterday, another group was running a different test on their own map. Similar to the game I played, they had a pool of a couple different 100-point units to choose from when drafting to make the process easier (we weren't very concerned about competitive balance here, as evidenced by the map itself).

Picture of Map:

The Glyph of Knowledge was in the center of those three doorways.
Played at 300 points.

Leo Ultra: Ana Karithon, Morsbane, Microcorp Agents
Odzaepher: Iskra Esenwein, Retchets of Bogdan, Shades of Bleakewoode, Haduc
Stormyman: Omnicron Snipers, Mind Flayer Mastermind, Major X17

I don't have much to work off of here, but from what I'm told, Leo managed to get up on top of those doors with his Microcorp and start shooting into some other starting zones. Odzaepher's flying ghouls managed to battle back at him, while Stormyman was caught in the crossfire. Eventually, Morsbane managed to negate the summoned Retchets of Bogdan, but they still won the day.

This map was a poor choice for the glyph, given the huge towers surrounding it. Knowledge simply isn't a glyph like Thorian or Astrid where it's worthwhile to lose a lot of figures trying to maintain it. I think that all three of them realized this partway through, because Leo was the only one to ever go after the glyph and he did not try to reclaim it after losing it.

He only managed to use it for one round (forgetting to use it a second time before initiative was rolled), which let him do the following:
Stormyman had 3 OMs on the Mind Flayer and only one on the Omnicron Snipers. I peeked at the single OM on the Omnicrons and saw it was a 3, revealing his entire turn order.
I also checked the only OM on Odzaepher's Iskra and saw that it was a 1, but he went first anyway so that info was useless.

I think that with a better map designed around Knowledge, it could be much more worthwhile in these multiplayer settings.

Also, a fun idea that I'd like to see is maps with multiple Glyphs of Knowledge. It's possible to create an information network revealing entire orders if you can maintain multiple Knowledges.

November 23rd, 2019, 10:03 AM
I’d like to think that revealing the entire Turn Order is useful, especially for OM-killing units like the Mindflayer or Dund. Or with a good player who can really make use of that knowledge. No pun intended. ;)

February 12th, 2020, 12:48 PM
Is there a reason why, "but before rolling initiative" is in this? If we wanted to make the glyph a bit stronger it could be changed to "after rolling initiative" as this might help you choose which unit you want to look at better. If you loose initiative you still might see a 1 and it be useless but you might be less likely to choose the figure with the 1.

February 15th, 2020, 07:41 PM
Seems reasonable.

February 17th, 2020, 06:33 PM
The reasoning was probably just that "before rolling for initiative" is cleaner than "after rolling for initiative, but before any Order Markers are revealed."

The change seems pretty minute to me, so I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other.

February 24th, 2020, 02:53 PM
After Order Markers are placed, but before rolling initiative... is roughly the same # of words as
After rolling for initiative, but before revealing any Order Markers...
My suggestion is stronger, but either way this glyph is kinda weak.

February 24th, 2020, 02:57 PM
I don’t mind if the glyph is on the weak side. This MS will feature a lot if podge builds, which boosts its MS-inclusive strength anyway.

March 1st, 2020, 11:28 AM
I'm OK with changing it to after rolling initiative. The glyph doesn't actually do anything by itself (it's up to the player to capitalize on the information), so being able to make a slightly more informed decision works for me.

April 11th, 2020, 08:17 AM
Had a game where Knowledge was relevant.

Battle report:

I held the glyph for two rounds. The first round info wasnít useful, but I was able to use the info from the 2nd round to kill off an order marker.

Since LE didnít have a large enough army for glyph control, this was a good advantage in addition to wannokís mill effect.

Its a handy effect, and well worth the figure. I think as long as its not in too weak of a spot on the map, this is a fun glyph.

May 13th, 2020, 01:14 PM
To make it a little more useful, what if you could look at 2 OMs?

May 19th, 2020, 11:30 AM
To make it a little more useful, what if you could look at 2 OMs?

I'd like to get some more games in with it first, especially because it already shows promise.

Don't know when we'll be able to get some 3+ player games in, but hopefully they happen in due time.

August 1st, 2020, 07:57 AM
We played a 4 player FFA with the Glyph of Knowledge and the Ukushisa Pride.

Players could choose from 6 prebuilt armies. Although the points varied a bit, I tried to keep them all somewhat close in balance. Very low competitiveness, we just wanted to have a good time.

Me *:
Einar Imperium *1

*I realized later that night I probably should have dropped Kato and put in Samurai Archers, but oh well. The points were much greater than the remaining armies.

Ukushisa Pride
Greater Ice Elemental
Venoc Vipers *1
Fyorlag Spiders *1

Ana Karithon
Darrak Ambershard
White Wyrmling *1


Mezzodemons *1
Marro Stingers *1
Sahaguin Raider

Custom map:

Glyphs: Knoweledge, Range +4, Defense +1, D20 +1, Wind (on drawbridge), Scarab of Invulnerability (revealed), Defense +1 T.Glyph (revealed), 6 unrevealed T. Glyphs (pool: Attack, Def, Move +4, Teleport, Cloak of Invis, Revenant Tome, Potion, Brandar {choose any unused T. Glyph in the pool}, Giant Belt, Ring of Protect).

Traps: If you roll 1-5, roll the d20 again to see which trap it was.
1-4: Destroy Glyph. Figure + adj figures are hit with explosion special attack. No height adv.
5-8: Choose an opponent. They place this unrevealed glyph under one of their figures. Do not get to roll to open now.
9-12: Take 2 wounds. This cannot destroy your figure.
13-16: Remove an OM from this figure.
17-20: Destroy the Drawbridge and this glyph. Figures who were on the drawbridge are affected by Explosion special attack. Survivors placed on the river below where they stood.

Details on the game are a bit fuzzy since it happened last week (and I simply havent had time to post about it).

Main take aways:
I won. Kato with a bunch of Treasure Glyphs is really strong.

Ukushisas are still pretty fun, but get revenge killed pretty easily because they group up most of the time. This is a good trait because it prevents their stats from overriding their points cost. They wounded Kaemon for 2, and killed a Kozuke. A Venoc with height finished off Kaemon. The other Kozukes were killed by the Ice Elemental and Sharwin.

Being able to use knowledge vs all opponents may have been nice, but didn't impact the game much. LE had it for two rounds. Since me and her were fighting, it did little good because she couldn't hold it for long periods of time.

August 9th, 2020, 11:21 AM
Glyph of Knowledge was used in these (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2410902&postcount=296) games. Picking a card with only 1 OM on it gives you a pretty good idea of what the opponent is up to, especially after OM1 itself is revealed. Still relatively low impact 1v1, but higher potential in multiplayer. I like it.