PDA

View Full Version : [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Editing


Pages : [1] 2

NecroBlade
May 12th, 2019, 07:58 PM
The Book of Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists)

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567021470937645066/image0.jpg?width=902&height=676

Printer-Friendly PDF

JANDAR :jandar:
HONORED SOUL-GUIDES
Species Undead
Unique Squad
Class Psychopomps
Personality Stoic
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 1 (2 figures)
MOVE 5 / BASIC 6
RANGE 1 / BASIC 1
ATTACK 2 / BASIC 3
DEFENSE 5 / BASIC 5

50 POINTS

LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may choose one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes. Place or remove wounds from that Hero's Army Card so that it has 1 Life remaining, then destroy an Honored Soul Guide you control and replace it with the chosen Hero. At the end of the round, negate that Hero's powers for the entire game and destroy that Hero.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. An Honored Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If an Honored Soul-Guide is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

The figures used for this unit are Lantern Geists from Arena of the Planeswalkers Shadows Over Innistrad.


Character Bio:


-Rulings and Clarifications-
Q: If the last Honored Soul Guide is destroyed during the round that a Hero was resurrected, is that Hero still destroyed at the end of that round?
A: Yes. Even if all of the Honored Soul Guides are destroyed or their powers are negated, Last Will has a defined duration. At the end of the round that Hero is negated and destroyed, regardless of the state of the Honored Soul Guides.

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA


https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567021470937645066/image0.jpg?width=902&height=676

Playtesting 1 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2372514#post2372514) 2 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2367462&highlight=soul#post2367462) 3 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2367425&highlight=soul#post2367425) 4 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2367338&highlight=soul#post2367338)

flameslayer93
May 12th, 2019, 08:01 PM
I’m fairly certain that the Lantern Geists aren’t Jace ;)

NecroBlade
May 12th, 2019, 08:08 PM
Iím fairly certain that the Lantern Geists arenít Jace ;)

I knew I had missed that, but you got here before I made my way back. :p

Pumpkin_King
May 12th, 2019, 10:15 PM
Flameslayer had this idea:

Lantern Geists
Dying Lights:
After a Geist has been destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Army Card. At the end of that Army Card’s turn, roll the 20 sided die. On a 19 or 20, destroy that unit.

I like them as Jandar.

Honored Soulguides
Undead
Un.Squad
Psychopomps
Merciful

1/6/1/2/4

Dying Lights

To Their Rest
("Helps" figures die somehow? Dunno.)

Stealth Flying

Astroking112
May 13th, 2019, 12:11 AM
I like Dying Lights, although it will likely drive up their cost quite a bit. It would probably need to be the highlight of the design, and it might need to be tweaked a little bit in either roll number or dealing wounds instead of complete destruction. Being able to destroy two unique figures can be very powerful against the right opponents, especially those with central controller figures.

I'm not totally opposed to making them Jandar undead. They don't feel like normal Utgar undead, and the only real alternative in my eyes is Vydar, who will likely be getting a healthy amount of units elsewhere in the Master Set.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 12:45 AM
I could see a wound on 16, destroy on 20, maybe?

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2019, 01:13 AM
Don’t most commander figures have “Instead of taking a turn” wording though? I realize the hive doesn’t, but that unit gets the benefit of bringing back felled marros anyway. I like the idea of allowing both wounds and OHKO’s from Dying Lights, as official Scape commonly included units who lived and died by the d20.

For To Their Rest, the power could just be something simple like +1 attack vs wounded heroes or something. It would be both flavorful and give their owner a practical reason to use them as the sharks they ultimately are.

Oh, and I think Jandar is a great choice for them. Not all ghosts have to be evil, after all. :)

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 01:25 AM
That's why I said Psychopomps! They help souls go where they need to go.

lefton4ya
May 13th, 2019, 12:13 PM
I think special powers 1 + 2 should be Stealth Flying and Insubstantial 2 ripped from Phantom Knights (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29574) but with +2D defense instead of three.

Not up on Discord thread - what is Dying Lights?

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 12:15 PM
Flameslayer had this idea:

Lantern Geists
Dying Lights:
After a Geist has been destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Army Card. At the end of that Army Cardís turn, roll the 20 sided die. On a 19 or 20, destroy that unit.

Here, I've isolated it.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2019, 12:16 PM
I think special powers 1 + 2 should be Stealth Flying and Insubstantial 2 ripped from Phantom Knights (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29574) but with +2D defense instead of three.

Not up on Discord thread - what is Dying Lights?



DYING LIGHTS

After a Geist has been destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Army Card. At the end of that Army Cardís turn, roll the 20 sided die. On a 19 or 20, destroy that unit.


I'm certainly not against Insubstantial myself, I actually suggested it on Discord at first. If we went with another power (or lack thereof), I'd still be happy though. Dying Lights is such a cool power already.

Astroking112
May 13th, 2019, 01:20 PM
If we have Dying Lights, I don't think we necessarily need a third power. Stealth Flying will already make them play pretty unique from the rest of the set, and there's nothing else like Dying Lights currently in the game.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 03:33 PM
If that’s the case I’d like to give them at least some decent attacking capabilities.

6/4/3/5 maybe.

Astroking112
May 13th, 2019, 04:36 PM
I don't think they really need decent attacking potential with a power like Dying Lights, but two attacks of 3 is hardly stellar anyway.

I see them as falling more into the role of the Izumi Samurai than as an all-around performer. Your opponent won't want to kill them already, so you can use them to tie down some important figures and fill out their points as-is.

All Your Pie
May 13th, 2019, 04:49 PM
Not a fan of a ranged attack for these guys, but I like the beefier stats. My main concern is more of a thematic oneówhile I like the idea of putting these guys in Jandar, a vengeful auto-destroy or autowound power seems a bit outside his wheelhouse. I also think them being able to haunt any unique figure on the battlefield is a little much. Hereís my revised version:

Dying Lights
When a Geist is destroyed by an opponentís attack, instead of removing it from the battlefield normally, you may place it on the army card of any opponentís figure within 4 clear sight spaces. Whenever an opponent reveals an order marker on an army card with one of your Geist figures, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, that player must choose a figure from that card to receive a wound.

Maybe a bit too overcomplicated and conditional, but it addresses my mechanical concerns at least. For thematic ones, Iíll have to think more about how to get these guys to read as Jandar.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2019, 05:04 PM
The idea of them being Jandar is because they’re supposed to help guide things into the afterlife, similar to some portrayals of the Grim Reaper or of mythological Valkyrie. Because on Valhalla being guided into death is not a bad thing (since it’s Valhalla), Jandar opens up as a legit option. Or at least, that was my original take on them. :)

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 07:20 PM
With stealth flying, that version of dying lights is effectively very similar. They’ll be able to get most anyplace they want to haunt whoever. That said, I think d20 to wound is a valid option, though the theme of the auto-destroy is really good.

All Your Pie
May 13th, 2019, 07:23 PM
With stealth flying, that version of dying lights is effectively very similar. They’ll be able to get most anyplace they want to haunt whoever. That said, I think d20 to wound is a valid option, though the theme of the auto-destroy is really good.

I'll admit that my design philosophy tends to prefer a more consistent, widely useful version of a power to a more splashy and swingy one, and those are the reasons I prefer the autowound--easier to evaluate and cost, can be effective against any figure, ect. I can't argue that it's strictly the correct direction, though.

EDIT: and at the very least, a range restriction requires them to get in the intended figure's way rather than just any figure. We could also reconfigure it to make them haunt the unit that destroys them, although that might be hitting an unintended vengeful theme.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 07:34 PM
I don’t know if we can do “the figure that destroyed it” because (from what I’ve seen of the editors) there’s some side cases where re source of any damage is unclear. I’m sure Scytale could say more.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2019, 07:59 PM
I donít know if we can do ďthe figure that destroyed itĒ because (from what Iíve seen of the editors) thereís some side cases where re source of any damage is unclear. Iím sure Scytale could say more.

We can always have it only work vs Normal Attacks, but again that starts to feel more like vengeance than at least I was intending.

Regarding autohits vs autokills, I was thinking this would be one (if not the only) units thatís similar to NGS. Comparable combat utility paired with a power that might come into play once in a while. Itís fun, swingy, and unique.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 08:52 PM
A NGS comparison is a good one, actually.

NecroBlade
May 14th, 2019, 10:49 AM
I like the Izumi/NGS analogies and had been thinking along those lines, too: something defensive oriented but with one impactful power (give or take Stealth Flying or whatever). I don't think they should have range or big stats. As a 2-figure Squad, let them be cheap except whatever cost their power drives.

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2019, 03:17 PM
I can live with that.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2019, 11:09 AM
What about Levitation from the Sentinels of Grax instead of Stealth Flying?

Sentinels of Grax do not take falling damage and may ignore all effects from terrain tiles they move onto or occupy.

flameslayer93
May 17th, 2019, 11:12 AM
What about Levitation from the Sentinels of Grax instead of Stealth Flying?

]Sentinels of Grax do not take falling damage and may ignore all effects from terrain tiles they move onto or occupy.

Imo, Scape Ghosts should stick to Stealth Flying. Even the Phantom Knights (who clearly look like they should be walking), have Stealth Flying.

Plus it is a core HS power, and learning some of the core powers makes it much easier for new players.

Astroking112
May 17th, 2019, 05:28 PM
I also prefer Stealth Flying since it's a staple for classic ghosts in HeroScape, although I could live with levitation if we wanted to remove their ability to disengage. I'm not sure that'd be necessary since they're only a two-person squad, though, and we can give them a slightly lower movement than usual for flying units to prevent them from easily tying up too many figures.

flameslayer93
May 17th, 2019, 07:15 PM
Alright since thereís been very little additional back and forth, itís time to crank out some stats.

Honored Soulguides?
Jandar
Undead
Unique Squad
Psychopomps? Guides?
Resolute? Terrifying? Merciful?

2 Figures
5 Move
1 Range
3 Attack
4 Defense

Dying Lights:
When an Honored Soulguide you control is destroyed, you may place its figure on any Unique Army Card. After that unit takes a turn, you may roll the 20 sided die. On a 19 or 20, that unit is destroyed.

Stealth Flying

70 Points?

Whatís everyone think of this? Should Dying Lights be rolled once for all Squad Figures, or once for each Squad figure? Or not affect Squads at all. Should we lower the Move to 4 and the Attack to 2?

Imo:
Dying Lights should work vs Squads, and be rolled once for each squad figure.
Move 5 makes them the slowest Ghost Squad so far, but I can somewhat see dropping it to 4. This would make them even more difficult to use though.
The attack is probably fine at 3, but I wouldnít be adverse to a drop to 2.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2019, 10:48 PM
I'm fine with 5 move since it's already the slowest (and these guys seem slow to me) but could see 4 maybe. 2A/5D seems better, as I don't see them as a particularly offensive Squad. Let them get killed by being annoying and Stealth Flying in and tying things up.

I'm still not sold on their other power, but if we stick with it and it works against Squads, rolling for each figure is probably a good idea.

Astroking112
May 18th, 2019, 04:09 PM
I think that we can begin with 5 move and move down to 4 if testing shows them to be too strong. I'm happy with 2A/5D, though.

Here's a quick stab at wording for Dying Lights if we want each Squad figure to have a chance of being destroyed:

Dying Lights
When a NICE GHOST that you control is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Army Card. After a figure with a NICE GHOST on its Army Card takes a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 19 or a 20, destroy that figure.

Alternatively, we can still go with 15/16+ dealing one wound, which improves the potency against squads and makes them more consistent overall, but lowers the Ne-Gok-Sa aspect of the design.

For personalities, Merciful feels like a poor fit to me given that they drag people to their doom. Resolute works, albeit it is a little plain. If we wanted a more unique/memorable personality, I'd be fine with going with a Wise angle here or another direction altogether.

flameslayer93
May 18th, 2019, 04:22 PM
I like that version of Dying Lights and Wise should work well.

2A/5D is good.

All Your Pie
May 18th, 2019, 04:55 PM
I think that we can begin with 5 move and move down to 4 if testing shows them to be too strong. I'm happy with 2A/5D, though.

Here's a quick stab at wording for Dying Lights if we want each Squad figure to have a chance of being destroyed:

Dying Lights
When a NICE GHOST that you control is destroyed, you may place it on any Unique Army Card. After a figure with a NICE GHOST on its Army Card takes a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 19 or a 20, destroy that figure.

Alternatively, we can still go with 15/16+ dealing one wound, which improves the potency against squads and makes them more consistent overall, but lowers the Ne-Gok-Sa aspect of the design.

For personalities, Merciful feels like a poor fit to me given that they drag people to their doom. Resolute works, albeit it is a little plain. If we wanted a more unique/memorable personality, I'd be fine with going with a Wise angle here or another direction altogether.

I donít think we quite have the wording figured out for how to make this power affect individual figures of a squad. Is your intent here to specify that you roll once for each figure? If so, keep in mind that squads take one turn, rather than each figure of the squad taking an individual turn.

Instead, something like ďafter an opponent takes a turn with an army card with one or more ghosties on it, roll the 20-sided die once for each figure from that army card. If you roll a 19 or 20, destroy that figure.Ē

Astroking112
May 18th, 2019, 05:36 PM
"Once for each figure from that Army Card" works fine for me.

Airballshooter
May 18th, 2019, 05:47 PM
Maybe i am a bit late for this, since you guys already discussed alot, but still throwing this idea in here.

Lantern geists:

Life: 1
Move:4
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Def: 5

Undead
Unique Squad
Guards
Terrifying


<Name needed>:

Lantern Geists do not start the game on the battlefield. At the start of the game choose a Unique (Tricky) Hero you control. If the chosen hero dies, before removing him from the battlefield, you may immediately place all Lantern Geists within 3 spaces of the chosen hero. Lantern Geists that cannot be placed get destroyed. All Order Markers on the chosen Heroes army card will be placed on the Lantern Geists' army card.


Stealth Flying.

60 Points?

flameslayer93
May 18th, 2019, 05:55 PM
It’s a good power, but really niche imo. It would be a little more usable if you could trigger it off of any Unique Hero.

Airballshooter
May 18th, 2019, 06:00 PM
you mean without choosing a specific hero at the beginning of the match?
why not.

would like to play them with azazel. so i dont lose turns on "rejected by death" and still have something to fight in the frontline

flameslayer93
May 18th, 2019, 06:04 PM
you mean without choosing a specific hero at the beginning of the match?
why not.

would like to play them with azazel. so i dont lose turns on "rejected by death" and still have something to fight in the frontline

Yeah, thatís what Iím meaning.

I still prefer Dying Lights but in my defense its my power so Iím fairly biased toward it. :p

Pumpkin_King
May 19th, 2019, 01:45 PM
I like the direction we’re going here. Honored Soulguides as a name, Psychopomp as a class, and Wise or Stoic.

NecroBlade
May 19th, 2019, 04:13 PM
I like Stoic.

What if Dying Lights (would Guiding Lights be better?) triggered when they were attacked? Don't get me wrong, I like putting figures on other cards as much as the next guy, but this way it would be a little more tied to a figure thematically, instead of choosing anything when they are destroyed.

Something like:

When a [Lantern Geist] is destroyed by a normal or special attack, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 19 or higher, destroy the attacking figure.

Slightly weak to Common Squads (since they won't get nearly as much value back), but there aren't any in this set anyway. :shrug:

EDIT: Added some current discussion points to the OP.

flameslayer93
May 19th, 2019, 04:26 PM
So they only get to roll for Lights twice? That makes them much weaker, imo. We still have no clue what the rest of the set looks like, so we might end up with a 50 point squad that easily counters these guys.

At least the Zetts sort of had a reason to be played. :p

NecroBlade
May 19th, 2019, 04:49 PM
Use Stealth Flying and high Defense to harass important figures into either disengaging or taking a shot and potentially dying. For this version, the roll could be lowered from 19 (Atlaga auto-kills anything on a 16+, though that's not exactly something I'd aim for :lol:). Another possibility would be going the Grimnak/Braxas route: auto-kill (or super low roll) against Commons/Squads and high roll for Uniques/Heroes.

Astroking112
May 19th, 2019, 05:40 PM
If we wanted to make Dying Lights trigger only when the ghost is destroyed (which I'm totally open to exploring), then I think that the roll would need to be lowered. They'd largely be useless with just a 10% auto-destroy revenge mechanic, but I don't want them to be too cheap since they do have the potential to swing the game in their favor.

I'd be fine with an auto-destroy against squad figures and a 16+ required to destroy heroes, although I kind of like the idea of squads countering these guys to some extent.

Airballshooter
May 19th, 2019, 06:52 PM
who wins if the lantern geist is the last figure in your army, fighting against the last figure in the opponents army?

other than that i like how they would affect gameplay. Maybe it would be better to do it like the dying swipe from the frost giant of morh (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33386), because they only get to do it twice per game and this way its more likely their deathwish will have effect. you could roll 2 unblockable dice for the first one and 1 die for the last one.

Pumpkin_King
May 20th, 2019, 01:16 PM
What about if a Soulguide is attacked, then you roll?

flameslayer93
May 20th, 2019, 02:20 PM
I still prefer the place on a unique Army Card version (even with a lowered roll chance). It has a fair number of implications against Shark and Menacer units without negatively affecting most Leader or Cheerleader units. Forcing Dying Lights against the attacker also feels too vengeful for Jandar, imo. This route is also simpler from a game-tying perspective, as Airballshooter has questioned. Both versions are equally fitting for a Master Set, but a more ďuniqueĒ variant generally would get my vote.

NecroBlade
May 24th, 2019, 02:50 PM
No matter when the power triggers, or which figure they're rolling for, the whole concept is a bit vengeful in practice. It would make more sense for Jandar if they helped guide your own figures in some way, IMO.

Pumpkin_King
May 24th, 2019, 07:59 PM
What would that look like? Bringing figures back?

Perhaps them being able to use abilities from destroyed army cards?

NecroBlade
May 26th, 2019, 03:37 PM
Hmm. Just spitballing something different:


GUIDING LIGHTS
When a Unique [Hero] figure you control is destroyed, you may place that figure on this card.

ETERNAL REST
Before taking a turn with [Lantern Geists] you may remove a Unique [Hero] figure from this card. If you do, [Lantern Geists] may use all special powers on that figure's card until the end of the turn.

All Your Pie
May 26th, 2019, 04:30 PM
Using the powers on other cards sounds like a rules/editing mess, but I like the basic concept. How about:

Living Will
Whenever a Unique figure you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soulguide is destroyed, you may place that figure on this army card. Up to a maximum of 3 other figures may be placed on this card. Add 1 to the Honored Soulguidesí attack and defense for each other figure on this army card.

With, I dunno, 2/4 stats? Goes for a theme of carrying on the will of the fallen rather than direct vengeance.

Pumpkin_King
May 26th, 2019, 04:34 PM
Would it be better to use the stats of the destroyed figure?

All Your Pie
May 26th, 2019, 05:08 PM
I donít know if that fits thematically. Theyíre ghosts, not shapeshifters.

Pumpkin_King
May 26th, 2019, 05:16 PM
Yeah, you're right.

As much as I like the idea of using abilities from another card, on a squad (even a squad of 2) it's problematic. Maybe save that for the angel statue?

NecroBlade
May 26th, 2019, 06:54 PM
That was just an off-the-cuff idea. I was going to suggest "X clear sight spaces" as well as a way to keep them from sitting around collecting souls. I don't like boosting stats as much as reusing powers. So on the other hand, here's another way to limit them:

FULFILLED DUTY
Once per game, before taking a turn with Honored Soulguides, choose a previously destroyed Unique Hero* in your army. Honored Soulguides can use all special powers on that Army Card this turn. After this turn, destroy Honored Soulguides.

So if you want to double Queglix Gun something, you can only do it once (even the proposed Glyph of Recall (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55802) couldn't cheat at it).

*I see no problem including Squads, except having to make the wording clear if we want the whole Squad to be destroyed first.

Pumpkin_King
May 26th, 2019, 07:20 PM
I'm not so much concerned with a power level (we can put in limiters - I'd be fine with a once-per-game thing like that) as I am with mechanical weirdness and edge cases.

I'd have to go through a list of heroes, but I'm certain there's a power that would just break the game when used in this way.

All Your Pie
May 26th, 2019, 07:29 PM
I'm with PK here for the most part. Getting special powers to actually function correctly on other cards raises too many edge-case questions to just casually throw it on a design. That mechanical weirdness is greatly complicated by allowing a 2-person squad to use abilities from unique heroes. Would the Soulguides get two attempts to use powers like Mindshackle or Dragon Swoop? So many powers would have to have their wording custom edited to fit a two-figure card in order for it to work. That would mean the power text here would have to include multiple instances of conditions that find and replace text within the abilities being used by the Soulguides, and even then it's doubtful we'd get everything. That's simply too much of a hassle.

On top of that, a power like that would have to be costed for its best case scenarios--copying the powers off of a Hydra, Q9, Nilfheim, Braxas, ect. As such, it would price the Soulguides out of usefulness in other builds, making them extremely niche and rendering a power that on the surface has a ton of possibilities actually very linear.

All that to say, if we want to do a design that copies special powers in should be a Unique Hero that copies Unique Heroes, and it should be the only thing going on with the card. Any other arrangement is treading on the level of needless complexity.

All Your Pie
May 26th, 2019, 07:43 PM
That said, here's an idea that might capture the theme you want more simply:

Last Will
After revealing an Order Marker on the Honored Soulguides and instead of taking a turn with them, you may choose a previously destroyed Unique Hero in your army. Place that figure on any space adjacent to an Honored Soulguide and immediately take a turn with them. After that turn, destroy the chosen hero and one of your Honored Soulguides.

I personally don't know that I like it better than a simpler, cleaner direction, but if we want something a little more unique I think this works better than power copying.

NecroBlade
May 26th, 2019, 09:41 PM
You're right, something somewhere would break. I just wanted to bounce it around to see where it went. I think your "Revenant's Tome" solution is excellent! Limited to two uses and lets you re-use the Hero in a way that's on-theme. I love it!

flameslayer93
May 26th, 2019, 11:02 PM
I’d be game for Revenant’s Tombing Heroes.

Pumpkin_King
May 26th, 2019, 11:21 PM
I like that a lot actually.

Astroking112
May 27th, 2019, 08:25 PM
Like others have said, putting Special Powers on other Army Cards opens too many rules issues and should be avoided. Turning this into a "Revenant's Tome" power is much more preferable, and I really like the way that this plays on the theme of a guide leading one of your figures on, especially if both are destroyed afterwards. The idea of reviving Q9 or Nilfheim for a turn is slightly worrisome, but destroying one of two guides to accomplish that is a heavy cost, especially as a unique squad with one life each.

For the rest of the design, I think that 5/1/2/4 with Stealth Flying ties it off nicely. They may be a little too easily destroyed with 4 defense if they're required to be kept near the destroyed hero that they guide, but given the potential of the power, I think that it's fine.

Are we fine with the name Honored Soulguides? I'd personally prefer to take on a more mythological name inspired by Norse beliefs, but I can live with the current name.

NecroBlade
May 27th, 2019, 10:24 PM
I don't think they necessarily have to stay near heroes for this version, though any version where they don't just makes them an endgame unit (but a fun one at that).

I was never tied to Honored Soulguides. I see the Jandar angle in that name, but am open to suggestions (including Norse-based ones).

All Your Pie
May 27th, 2019, 10:30 PM
I don't mind keeping these guys at 4 defense. I feel like your opponents targeting them to prevent you from getting those extra turns with big heroes is a natural part of play for a power like this.

Here's a more considered wording/mechanics proposal for the power:

Last Will
Whenever a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soulguide is destroyed, you may place that figure on this army card. Instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soulguides, you may choose a destroyed Unique Hero on this army card. Remove all wound markers from that figure's card, place them adjacent to an Honored Soulguide you control, and immediately take a turn with them. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero and an Honored Soulguide you control, if possible.

Wordier, but incorporates some other elements we've been discussing. One thing I would like to attempt, if possible, is a way to try and prevent a figure from being brought back twice with Last Will. I'm not too concerned about one last hurrah with Nilfheim, but two extra turns with him is a little worrying. This is slightly balanced out by the fact that your opponent can target the soulguides, though, so maybe it isn't a problem.

As for names, I don't know much about Norse Mythology around death other than Valkyrie stuff, which seems like a different thing entirely from these guys. Thinking about what planet they're from should definitely be a consideration, though.

NecroBlade
May 27th, 2019, 10:53 PM
To prevent using the same figure twice,

Whenever a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soulguide is destroyed, if that Hero was not placed with Last Will, you may place that figure on this army card. Instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soulguides, you may choose a destroyed Unique Hero on this army card. Remove all wound markers from that figure's card, place them adjacent to an Honored Soulguide you control, and immediately take a turn with them. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero and an Honored Soulguide you control, if possible.

Astroking112
May 27th, 2019, 11:01 PM
Guiding Lights
Whenever a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soulguide is destroyed, if that figure was not previously placed with Last Will, you may place that figure on this Army Card.

Last Will
Instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soulguides, you may remove a Unique Hero from this Army Card. Remove all wound markers from that figure's card, place them adjacent to an Honored Soulguide you control, and immediately take a turn with them. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero and an Honored Soulguide you control.

I think that by specifying "remove" here, we can stop the same hero from being brought back twice, as unlikely as it may be (in addition to them being heavily encouraged to be on the battlefield by putting a 4 space restriction on Last Will, the remaining one will have to not be destroyed while staying close enough for enemies to be in the threat range of the chosen hero).

Edit: Like NB noted, we can also add a clause to stop a figure that just took a turn with Last Will from being destroyed and put back on the card.

I think that separating AYP's Last Will into two powers (in the vein of the Ebon Armor) also lets us get Guiding Lights onto the card, which is an important part of the theme to me if we're going with Jandar. The two parts also feel different enough (with separate activation points) to justify it.

All Your Pie
May 27th, 2019, 11:04 PM
Hmm, having a power that in and of itself doesn't really do anything seems odd to me, but I'll accept the Ebon Armor Precedent.

Real question is, can we reasonably fit all this text onto a card with Stealth Flying?

Pumpkin_King
May 28th, 2019, 12:28 AM
Honestly I was thinking the Soulguides would be native to Valhalla.

Astroking112
May 28th, 2019, 12:59 AM
Agreed on them being native to Valhalla, especially if we go with a Norse theme.

Hmm, having a power that in and of itself doesn't really do anything seems odd to me, but I'll accept the Ebon Armor Precedent.

Real question is, can we reasonably fit all this text onto a card with Stealth Flying?

We also have the Skeletons of Annellintia as another example for separating the placement of a figure on an Army Card from some kind of revival. I think that it just feels neater because they are inherently two different actions with two different triggers; one placing a figure when it gets destroyed, and the other removing a figure to take a turn with it instead of the ghosts. It's not the end of the world if we decide to lump them into one power, but I'd rather not.

I dropped the text into Xorlof's Card Creator to get a quick visual, and it does look a bit dense. Combining the powers saves a little space, but it still looks like a sizable block of text.
https://i.imgur.com/cvtyq1w.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/3SSCaYI.jpg

All Your Pie
May 28th, 2019, 01:14 AM
The easiest thing to take away to reduce the text count here is the whole "place figures on the card, bring back figures from the card" mechanic. I think not using that is thematically workable--they're giving the dead a second chance, not storing souls to unleash later. Whether or not it leads to interesting gameplay is an open question but it's an option on the table.

A wilder idea would be to cut stealth flying from the card. This would be inconsistent with all other heroscape ghosts, but the figures are at least sellable as walking specters rather than flying ones. We'd probably still end up giving them Phantom Walk instead, but that would still trim a fair few lines when taking next to the wordy Stealth Flying. And Leaf_It's Specters of Aldorn have been fairly well received by the SoV even without Stealth Flying, though they have a more pointed mechanical reason for it.

Pumpkin_King
May 28th, 2019, 02:25 PM
I think we can cut Guiding Lights and roll it into one power to save space.

EDIT: Didn’t see the second card Astro made. I think that looks good. A card like Mimring looks complex, but only because of Flying.

NecroBlade
May 30th, 2019, 08:13 PM
Yeah that second card does look pretty good. It could work as two powers, but it works just as well as one, IMO.

Astroking112
June 2nd, 2019, 04:01 PM
I was researching suitable Norse-inspired names, but I'm not finding many compelling options. My favorite so far is Huginn and Muninn (https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/hugin-and-munin/), Odin's two ravens that represent him sending his mind and thought out into the world, but it's not a perfect name in the way that I would like. Valkyries were known to carry warriors on to the afterlife, but that is hardly a naming option for HeroScape's version of Valhalla.

I think that we might be better off with just keeping Honored Soulguides (or even something like Ancestral Guides or some other variation) rather than trying to link it to the actual Valhalla. I'm fine with keeping the name Honored Soulguides as the final name if it doesn't bother anyone.

I'm not a fan of cutting Stealth Flying, personally. I feel like it's a staple for ghosts in HeroScape, and I'd need a more compelling reason to use Phantom Walk instead than saving space (which is a very important consideration, although I think the design could be improved in other ways).

Phantom
June 5th, 2019, 07:27 PM
My two cents/questions:
what's the point about the "remove wound markers" stuff? why would you care about them since he's going to die at the end of the turn?

and instead of "instead of taking a turn" could it be "before taking a turn" to give them one more chance to do something if they are being sacrificed and hopefully place the hero in a good spot? (maybe that's too powerful?)

also, since it's so wordy and really separate abilities, I think for readability, the powers should be split.

Astroking112
June 5th, 2019, 07:46 PM
Thanks for chiming in, Phantom.

My two cents/questions:
what's the point about the "remove wound markers" stuff? why would you care about them since he's going to die at the end of the turn?

Removing the wounds is cleaner and clears up potential confusion for powers reliant on wounds (if a figure with 1 life left takes 2 wounds, do you place 1 marker on them and destroy them or place both markers?). For example, Krug wouldn't get extra attack dice for technically being dead, and Capt. John Varan wouldn't get extra attacks for his wounds. It also follows the precedent set by the Revenant's Tome Treasure Glyph.

and instead of "instead of taking a turn" could it be "before taking a turn" to give them one more chance to do something if they are being sacrificed and hopefully place the hero in a good spot? (maybe that's too powerful?)

also, since it's so wordy and really separate abilities, I think for readability, the powers should be split.

Taking another turn with a hero such as Major Q9 or Nilfheim is already very powerful. If they're turning out to be underpowered, I'm personally more interested in either removing the self-sacrifice or lowering the cost, but letting them still take a turn is another direction we could consider.

I do agree that the powers should be split, but the consensus seems to be that it's not worth making the text smaller. It's a small enough difference that it's looking like it'll come down to personal preference.

All Your Pie
June 5th, 2019, 07:57 PM
I dropped the text into Xorlof's Card Creator to get a quick visual, and it does look a bit dense. Combining the powers saves a little space, but it still looks like a sizable block of text.
https://i.imgur.com/cvtyq1w.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/3SSCaYI.jpg

In terms of wording and complexity, I'm curious to see what Scytale has to say about this design. Getting a read on if all the complexity of this power is necessary or if we've appended a few too many conditions and complications onto how it works feels like what we need to focus on here.

Regarding wound markers, I'm not technically sure if you're allowed to have a figure on the battlefield with enough wounds on its card to destroy it. If a hero takes enough wounds to destroy it from a LEA mid-move it's immediately removed from the battlefield, so the rules would probably require you to immediately destroy any hero replaced with last will if you don't include the "remove all wound markers" clause. While it does make Krug a pretty bad choice to bring back, it's the opposite for Fen Hydras who would be prime targets to get one extra turn in a key position.

Scytale
June 5th, 2019, 08:25 PM
It seems like a lot of effort for a thematic but not especially great effect. The mechanic comes off as forced to me.

From a technical side, you are running in to two potential problems:

1) Being able to put any Unique Hero of yours that gets destroyed on this army card has collisions with some powers. Most notably Spirit powers, which place the figure on other cards. While it seems like you could do either, the Spirit powers aren't clearly optional.

2) End-of-turn collisions are potentially a mess. There are a bunch of powers that trigger after a hero takes a turn. Do those happen or does the destruction after the bonus turn from Last Will happen first? It can matter for some powers. In VC we have made our own ruling that a player can choose the order of their own simultaneous effects, but that's not an official ruling.

Neither appears particularly insurmountable. Though I don't know what quality control this process has, so I don't know if it's expected to go through an Editing gauntlet or what.

Astroking112
June 6th, 2019, 10:39 PM
It seems like a lot of effort for a thematic but not especially great effect. The mechanic comes off as forced to me.

From a technical side, you are running in to two potential problems:

1) Being able to put any Unique Hero of yours that gets destroyed on this army card has collisions with some powers. Most notably Spirit powers, which place the figure on other cards. While it seems like you could do either, the Spirit powers aren't clearly optional.

2) End-of-turn collisions are potentially a mess. There are a bunch of powers that trigger after a hero takes a turn. Do those happen or does the destruction after the bonus turn from Last Will happen first? It can matter for some powers. In VC we have made our own ruling that a player can choose the order of their own simultaneous effects, but that's not an official ruling.

Neither appears particularly insurmountable. Though I don't know what quality control this process has, so I don't know if it's expected to go through an Editing gauntlet or what.

I think that you're correct in that a Viking or Varkaanan Spirit could be revived with Last Will, which feels a little worrisome in terms of clarity. We could address this by specifying that they need to be placed with the power itself, rather than by another source, but that still runs into this problem when Finn dies within 4 spaces of one of them. Does he still give them the boost since he's destroyed and on their card? It's not immediately clear, which is something we'll want to fix.

End-of-turn powers are definitely something else to keep an eye on. I've run into some similar trouble recently with one of my own customs. Nothing comes to mind immediately for conflicting with destroy-at-the-end-of-the-turn yet, but we should keep an eye out for anywhere that an interaction could break.

We definitely want to aim for units being as clean and free of rules issues as possible, just like C3V and SoV. As Pod Leaders, we should be watching for potential problems like this and fixing them early on. R&C's are an option, but I want to try to avoid those wherever possible.

Scytale
June 7th, 2019, 10:37 AM
End-of-turn powers are definitely something else to keep an eye on. I've run into some similar trouble recently with one of my own customs. Nothing comes to mind immediately for conflicting with destroy-at-the-end-of-the-turn yet, but we should keep an eye out for anywhere that an interaction could break.
Our VC Editing Checklist has a long list of end-of-turn powers to compare against.

We definitely want to aim for units being as clean and free of rules issues as possible, just like C3V and SoV. As Pod Leaders, we should be watching for potential problems like this and fixing them early on. R&C's are an option, but I want to try to avoid those wherever possible.
Is there some sort of quality control process here? One of the steps of C3V and SoV is to run the Editing gauntlet where we heavily scrutinize all possible rules conflicts.

Pumpkin_King
June 7th, 2019, 02:28 PM
I think that’s something we need to discuss, borrowing an editing list.

Scytale
June 7th, 2019, 02:41 PM
I think thatís something we need to discuss, borrowing an editing list.
I am willing to use that checklist for units here. But a formalized process would be a good thing for the project to ensure quality.

Pumpkin_King
June 19th, 2019, 09:14 PM
Absolutely. Project leads of AOTV, we may want to get on that. Scy, could you PM me your editing checklist?

Astroking112
June 20th, 2019, 12:57 AM
Agreed on both fronts. Let's continue this discussion in the Main Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55777&page=4), where all PLs are more likely to see it.

NecroBlade
June 21st, 2019, 10:11 AM
Last Will added to the OP so everyone can see what we're working with more easily.

End of turn powers is one sticking point, but this may be a case that's resolved by the "roll the d20 for simultaneous powers" rule.

For Viking and Wolf Spirits, we have to figure out if there's a difference between placing them with their own Spirit power (bonus) and Last Will (possibly no bonus). Either way it seems they'd be eligible to be removed from the card for a free turn (meaning a Spirit could get to the Geists after being destroyed anywhere on the board, not just within 4 spaces, which has a certain thematic connection at least). Once that's figured out, taking them off the card means the card is no longer getting a bonus. When they're destroyed by Last Will, they can then go on any card again to provide a bonus.

Astroking112
June 21st, 2019, 11:49 AM
For Viking and Wolf Spirits, we have to figure out if there's a difference between placing them with their own Spirit power (bonus) and Last Will (possibly no bonus). Either way it seems they'd be eligible to be removed from the card for a free turn (meaning a Spirit could get to the Geists after being destroyed anywhere on the board, not just within 4 spaces, which has a certain thematic connection at least). Once that's figured out, taking them off the card means the card is no longer getting a bonus. When they're destroyed by Last Will, they can then go on any card again to provide a bonus.

I agree with this interpretation, but more I'm concerned about whether this interaction is too complex for a decently common power. We won't be seeing kids picking this up in the stores anymore, but I'd prefer to avoid needing anyone to look up a R&C clarifying these steps if they pick up our set and Rise of the Valkyrie or one of the expansions.

lefton4ya
June 21st, 2019, 11:50 AM
I like getting grid of "if that Hero was not previously placed with Last Will" so that you could take a turn with the same hero twice - once for each Lantern Geist. This way you could use them mid-game, or are we just making these cleanup figures only after you already have 2 heroes dead. Also maybe give them crazy defense (4-5 plus Insubstantial 2-3) so that they can be almost guaranteed 2 turns once you bring them out.

Pumpkin_King
June 23rd, 2019, 12:40 PM
For Viking and Wolf Spirits, we have to figure out if there's a difference between placing them with their own Spirit power (bonus) and Last Will (possibly no bonus). Either way it seems they'd be eligible to be removed from the card for a free turn (meaning a Spirit could get to the Geists after being destroyed anywhere on the board, not just within 4 spaces, which has a certain thematic connection at least). Once that's figured out, taking them off the card means the card is no longer getting a bonus. When they're destroyed by Last Will, they can then go on any card again to provide a bonus.

I agree with this interpretation, but more I'm concerned about whether this interaction is too complex for a decently common power. We won't be seeing kids picking this up in the stores anymore, but I'd prefer to avoid needing anyone to look up a R&C clarifying these steps if they pick up our set and Rise of the Valkyrie or one of the expansions.

I don’t think this is too much of a stretch - once you actually sit down and logic out the sequence of events gets its obvious. But I do share your concern. I don’t know if there’s a better solution, though.

NecroBlade
June 25th, 2019, 10:32 PM
I like getting grid of "if that Hero was not previously placed with Last Will" so that you could take a turn with the same hero twice - once for each Lantern Geist. This way you could use them mid-game, or are we just making these cleanup figures only after you already have 2 heroes dead. Also maybe give them crazy defense (4-5 plus Insubstantial 2-3) so that they can be almost guaranteed 2 turns once you bring them out.

Since it is limited to two figures (give or take reviving one with a glyph), I don't think that would be terrible. However, it does kind of fly in the face of Last Will to use the same hero multiple times. Not that the power name is set in stone yet, though.

For Viking and Wolf Spirits, we have to figure out if there's a difference between placing them with their own Spirit power (bonus) and Last Will (possibly no bonus). Either way it seems they'd be eligible to be removed from the card for a free turn (meaning a Spirit could get to the Geists after being destroyed anywhere on the board, not just within 4 spaces, which has a certain thematic connection at least). Once that's figured out, taking them off the card means the card is no longer getting a bonus. When they're destroyed by Last Will, they can then go on any card again to provide a bonus.

I agree with this interpretation, but more I'm concerned about whether this interaction is too complex for a decently common power. We won't be seeing kids picking this up in the stores anymore, but I'd prefer to avoid needing anyone to look up a R&C clarifying these steps if they pick up our set and Rise of the Valkyrie or one of the expansions.

I donít think this is too much of a stretch - once you actually sit down and logic out the sequence of events gets its obvious. But I do share your concern. I donít know if thereís a better solution, though.

I think it mostly ends up being a case of "do what the card says, not what it doesn't say." Since Last Will just says to remove the hero without caring about how it got there, Vikings, etc. would work fine whether they came via the Geists' power or their own.

flameslayer93
June 29th, 2019, 09:24 AM
I like Last Will as written in the OP.


For stats, I like 2A 5D the most. 5D gives them enough defense to survive to use Last Will.


Are we ok to send this to editing? End of turn concerns aside, I see no reason why we should not use the C3V/SoV precedent for end of turn powers being triggered in the order the player wishes, as AotV is meant to be an extension of their canon anyways.

NecroBlade
June 30th, 2019, 12:32 PM
I think we're pretty settled on 5M and 2A. Defense needs to be decided between 4 and 5. We also need a definitive name and ballpark on points. Right now I'd say 40-50 depending on Defense.

Pumpkin_King
June 30th, 2019, 12:34 PM
I came up with Honored Soulguides, so I’m still a fan of that.

Astroking112
June 30th, 2019, 02:52 PM
My thoughts on the name haven't changed:

I was researching suitable Norse-inspired names, but I'm not finding many compelling options. My favorite so far is Huginn and Muninn (https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/hugin-and-munin/), Odin's two ravens that represent him sending his mind and thought out into the world, but it's not a perfect name in the way that I would like. Valkyries were known to carry warriors on to the afterlife, but that is hardly a naming option for HeroScape's version of Valhalla.

I think that we might be better off with just keeping Honored Soulguides (or even something like Ancestral Guides or some other variation) rather than trying to link it to the actual Valhalla. I'm fine with keeping the name Honored Soulguides as the final name if it doesn't bother anyone.

I think that 5 or 4 defense should be decided pending playtesting. I'm more inclined to start at 4 and only bump it up if they're proving that the fragility is too much of a problem, although I think that 5D would necessitate a higher price point than the 50-ish range. 50 points with 4D is where I would suggest we start at.

NecroBlade
July 7th, 2019, 02:42 PM
I'm OK with the name (what do you think of adding the hyphen?) and starting 4D/50 points.

flameslayer93
July 7th, 2019, 02:46 PM
I think I’d have to see the Hypen on the card first, but I have no issues with it right now.

Astroking112
July 7th, 2019, 03:05 PM
I'm not really a fan of the hyphen, but I'm not terribly opposed to it either. I'd be fine with whatever looks best on the card.

capsocrates
August 9th, 2019, 02:39 AM
This is a really novel design. :up:

Astroking112
August 10th, 2019, 02:13 AM
Thanks for the bump, caps.

Are we comfortable with formally sending this to Editing?

flameslayer93
August 10th, 2019, 10:12 AM
I am. Let’s do it

NecroBlade
August 11th, 2019, 10:10 PM
This is a really novel design. :up:
Agreed. Very unique thematic direction.

Make that a formal vote Astroking112 and it's a yea from me.

Astroking112
August 12th, 2019, 04:40 PM
For the sake of officiality, that's a YEA from me as well.

NecroBlade
August 18th, 2019, 11:34 AM
If we count caps' thumb before the vote, that's 4/6 yeas. Let's give PK and AYP another day to chime in, then it's on to editing.

Yea @NecroBlade (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=1508)
Yea @Pumpkin_King (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=810)
Yea @Astroking112 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=16492)
Yea @All Your Pie (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=10063)
Yea @flameslayer93 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=8791)
Yea? @capsocrates (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=11259)

Pumpkin_King
August 19th, 2019, 04:26 PM
Yea!

All Your Pie
August 21st, 2019, 08:12 PM
Whoops, sorry I missed this. I think the mention didn't work.

YEA from me.

Astroking112
August 21st, 2019, 08:25 PM
It's not a big deal, but hopefully the pings in the other threads have worked.

We have the majority to send the Honored Soul-Guides to editing now, so it's time for Scytale to run them through the checklist once he gets a chance.

Astroking112
August 29th, 2019, 01:40 PM
Edit: Whoops, duplicate post. Ignore this.

Scytale
September 16th, 2019, 06:27 PM
Sorry it took a while. Let's see what we've got. I'm making a few minor changes to the text to meet standards.

Going through I realized that the Honored Soul-Guides could be used to kill your own Unique Hero, then bring it back later on a different part of the battlefield. Rarely every useful, but worth noting.

LAST WILL
Whenever a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soul-Guide is destroyed, if that Hero was not previously placed with Last Will, you may place that figure on this Army Card. Instead of taking a turn with Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a destroyed Unique Hero on this army card. Remove all wound markers from that figure's card, place that figure adjacent to an Honored Soul-Guide you control, and immediately take a turn with it. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero and an Honored Soul-Guide you control, if possible.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. An Honored Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When an Honored Soul-Guide starts to fly, if it is engaged it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No, Stealth Flying is an existing power.

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? Yes

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, the Honored Soul-Guides could not use Stealth Flying. Unique Heroes that die within 4 spaces of an Honored Soul-Guide could not be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, and Unique Heroes on their army card could not be used. Exploit Weakness has no effect. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording? While not explicitly stated, there would be no way to use Unique Heroes on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, so they are naturally stranded.

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? DOs are not Unique Heroes, so they could not be captured by Last Will.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? Could Last Will be used on a figure you have temporary control of, such as Eternal Hatred or Enslave? It may die during the turn you have temporary control, so can you place it on the Honored Soul-Guides army card and take a turn with it again later? Adding complication to that is mirror matches. Last Will destroys that hero at the end of the turn, so I think it would be destroyed prior to control returning to its original owner, so the original owner could not use Last Will to put it on their own Honored Soul-Guides army card.

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No, the turn taken with a captured Hero is "instead of" a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides.

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? No If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy?

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? No

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? Unique Heroes placed on the Honored Soul-Guides army card will be stranded there. I assume this is intentional. If so, is that clearly worded?

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? N/A

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? Yes If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)? There are a number of others powers that can place dead figures on other army cards. How is Last Will supposed to interact with them?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Both Last Will and Stealth Flying are clearly optional.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? If the Marro Hive is taken by Last Will, and the Honored Soul-Guides give up their turn to bring it back and take a turn, can it use Hive Mind to take more turns beforehand?

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Last Will is rather specific as a power, so the name is fine.

22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc. It's a bit crowded, but workable.


Capitalization Checklist:

Named Special Power
Army Card
card
wound marker
Unique
Hero


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. Undead is plural.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. Psychopomps is singular.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "figure's" and "Soul-Guide's" are correct.

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. N/A


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? N/A

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? If the Honored Soul-Guides have one or more Unique Heroes on their army card when they are Mind Shackled, can the new owner take turns with those Unique Heroes which belong to the other player?


Movement Power Checklist:

1. Does it allow leaving engagement attacks? No

2. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Stealth Flying ignores these powers until the figure lands. Landing can trigger these powers.

3. How does it interact with Slippery? Stealth Flying would not trigger Slippery unless the figure landed next to Elaria. If so, Slippery could take effect.

4. How does it interact with Cyberclaw/Improved Cyberclaw? Cyberclaw would prevent an Honored Soul-Guide from starting to fly. Soul-Guides would not be affected by Cyberclaw while flying.

5. How does it interact with Swirling Vortex? Stealth Flying ignores effects of Swirling Vortex.

6. Is there any way the figure can be forced to end its movement on an illegal space? No

7. Is it a space-by-space move power, or a teleport-like place power? It is a modification to movement. Is it clear in the power which one it is?

8. How does it interact with bonus movement powers, such as Movement Bonding or Jandar's Dispatch? Stealth Flying can be used with bonus movement powers.

9. How does it interact with Shield Push? Stealth Flying can be used with Shield Push if the Hoplitron is friendly.

10. How does it interact with Maneuver? N/A

11. How does it interact with Steadfast? N/A

12. How does it interact with Flying/Stealth Flying? It is Stealth Flying.

13. How does it interact with Levitation? N/A


Bonus/Replacement Turn Power (e.g. Bonding) Checklist:

1. Does it create bonding chains/loops? For a power like Hive Mind, can the Marro Hive take a turn with a Marro squad before taking it turn when taking a turn with Last Will? How about other "instead of taking a turn" powers like Kato Katsuro's Command?

2. Should it have "after revealing an Order Marker" language? It is generally safe to leave this language off for squads.

3. Does the power inadvertently allow the same unit to take multiple turns? No

4. Does it allow squad figures to take a turn? No If so, does it divide up a squad so that only some members of the squad can activate?


Start of Turn Power Checklist:

1. How does it interact with various forms of bonding? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use bonding?

2. How does it interact with powers that allow other units to take turns instead of the unit with the order marker? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use an "instead of taking a turn" power?

3. How does it interact with Samurai Life Debt? N/A

4. How does it interact with Healing Word? N/A

5. How does it interact with Eternal Hatred? N/A

6. How does it interact with additional order marker revealing powers, such as Crag of Steel and Frost Rage? N/A

7. How does it interact with Rejected by Death? Rejected by Death would happen at the start of the Unique Hero's turn that is going via Last Will. Could Rejected by Death be used to remove the figure from the Honored Soul-Guides army card? If so, can it be placed back on the card after it dies again?

8. How does it interact with Reanimation? N/A

9. How does it interact with Quantum Reconstitution? N/A

10. How does it interact with Through the Green? N/A

11. How does it interact with First Strike? N/A

12. How does it interact with Split Decision? If Grigor & Rogirg would take a turn due to Last Will, they would have to roll for Split Decision.

13. How does it interact with Chrono-Key? N/A

14. How does it interact with Potion of Healing? N/A

15. How does it interact with Revenant's Tome? N/A


End of Turn Power Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Cold Healing/Cold Regenerate/Regenerate? It does not matter if a Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will uses a healing power.

2. How does it interact with Frenzy? If a Unique Hero had Frenzy, it would die to Last Will (end of turn) before rolling for Frenzy (after taking a turn).

3. How does it interact with Hyper Speed? A Unique Hero with Hyper Speed would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Hyper Speed (after taking a turn).

4. How does it interact with Jandar's Dispatch? Sir Gilbert would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Jandar's Dispatch (after taking a turn).

5. How does it interact with Overextend Attack? A Unique Hero with Overextend would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Overextend (after taking a turn).

6. How does it interact with Stab in the Back? A Unique Hero with Stab in the Back would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Stab in the Back (after taking a turn).

7. How does it interact with Summon the Rechets of Bogdan? Iskra would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Summon the Rechets of Bogdan (after taking a turn).

8. How does it interact with War Cry/Guerrilla Tactics? A Unique Hero with these powers would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using them (after taking a turn).

9. How does it interact with Divine Mission/Labors? Heracles would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Labors (after taking a turn).

10. How does it interact with Undead Legion/Flocking? A Unique Hero with these powers would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using them (after taking a turn).

11. How does it interact with Enslave/Command Dispatch/Heavy Support Command Beacon? N/A

12. How does it interact with EMP Response? If the Unique Hero taking a turn with Last Will is a Soulborg, and it gets hit with EMP Response, it's turn ends immediately. There is no "end of turn" phase, so the auto-destruct that Last Will tacks on would not happen. Changing to be "after taking that turn" is needed to fix that, though that will clash with some other effects.

13. How does it interact with Growing Heat? Brimstone would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Growing Heat (after taking a turn).

14. How does it interact with Furious Wrath? There is really no reason not to use Furious Wrath during a Last Will turn, since the figure will die anyway.

15. How does it interact with Marching Orders? After taking a turn with a Jandar Unique Soldier Hero with Last Will, you may use Marching Orders to move 8th Infantry figures as long as there is another Jandar Unique Soldier in your army.

16. How does it interact with Enraged? N/A

17. How does it interact with Hunting Party? After taking a turn with a Scout or Tribesman Hero with Last Will, you may use Hunting Party to move Teeth of the Makwa.

18. How does it interact with Piercing Scream? N/A


Return-to-battlefield Power Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Pounce? N/A

2. How does it interact with Zombies Rise Again/Zombie Rises Again/Bloodborn Rising? Could a Zombie Hulk on the Honored Soul-Guides army card Rise Again? If so, could it be put back on the Honored Soul-Guides army card due to Last Will?

3. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Placing the Unique Hero on the turn due to Last Will could trigger these powers, and could be killed by them before taking a turn. In which case, the Unique Hero never gets a turn, which implies you would not need to destroy an Honored Soul-Guide at the end of that figure's turn. Is that how it's intended?

4. How does it interact with Slippery? N/A


Triggered Power Checklist:

Destruction Triggered Powers:

1. How does it interact with normal attacks? A Unique Hero destroyed by a normal attack could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

2. How does it interact with every special attack in the game (listed here (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=42201))? A Unique Hero destroyed by a special attack could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

3. How does it interact with leaving engagement attacks? A Unique Hero destroyed by a leaving engagement attack could trigger the capture part of Last Will, as long as it was in the order prior to moving.

4. How does it interact with falling damage? A Unique Hero destroyed by falling damage could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

5. How does it interact with lava field damage? A Unique Hero destroyed by lava field damage could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

6. How does it interact with the Glyph of Wannok? A Unique Hero destroyed by the Glyph of Wannok could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

7. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? A Unique Hero destroyed by a these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

8. How does it interact with Marro Plague/Circuitry Overload/Toxic Skin/Searing Intensity? A Unique Hero destroyed by a these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

9. How does it interact with Cleave? N/A

10. How does it interact with Chilling Touch/Commander's Strike/Dragon Swoop/Fledgling Acid Breath/Spiked Gauntlet? A Unique Hero destroyed by these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

11. How does it interact with Poisonous Acid Breath? A Unique Hero destroyed by Poisonous Acid Breath could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

12. How does it interact with Dying Swipe? A Unique Hero destroyed by Dying Swipe could trigger the capture part of Last Will. For a Frost Giant, it would use Dying Swipe before it could be captured by Last Will.

13. How does it interact with Eternal Heartbreak? Sonya destroyed by Eternal Heartbreak could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

14. How does it interact with Healing Touch? A Unique Hero destroyed by Healing Touch could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

15. How does it interact with Maul? A Unique Hero destroyed by Maul could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

16. How does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? Myrrdin destroyed by his own Mystic Sacrifice could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

17. How does it interact with Opportunity Strike? A Unique Hero destroyed by Opportunity Strike could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

18. How does it interact with Overextend Attack? A Unique Hero destroyed by its own Overextend Attack damage could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

19. How does it interact with Self-Destruct? A Unique Hero destroyed by Self-Destruct (even its own) could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

20. How does it interact with Throw? A Unique Hero destroyed by Throw could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

21. How does it interact with Thunder Step? Eltahale destroyed by her own Thunder Step could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

22. How does it interact with Trample Stomp? A Unique Hero destroyed by Trample Stomp could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

23. How does it interact with Purple Heart? Capt. Varan destroyed by Purple Heart could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

24. How does it interact with Expendable Rabble? N/A

25. How does it interact with Bloodlust/Demonblade? If a Tagawa destroys a Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will with Counter Strike, it would get a Bloodlust marker. Is this ok?

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? The destruction of a Unique Hero could trigger both Eternal War and the capture part of Last Will.

27. How does it interact with Furious Wrath/Engorge? A Unique Hero destroyed by these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

28. How does it interact with Life Drain/Life Transfer Aura? Calibrax could heal another another figure with Life Transfer Aura during a turn taken due to Last Will.

29. How does it interact with Swarm Sting 18? N/A

30. How does it interact with Devour From Beneath? N/A

31. How does it interact with Remote Detonation? A Unique Hero destroyed by Remote Detonation could trigger the capture part of Last Will.

32. How does it interact with Opportunistic Hero? The destruction of a Unique Hero could trigger both Opportunistic Hero and the capture part of Last Will.

33. How does it interact with Piercing Scream? N/A

Astroking112
September 17th, 2019, 03:47 PM
Thanks for running the checklist, Scytale!

Going through I realized that the Honored Soul-Guides could be used to kill your own Unique Hero, then bring it back later on a different part of the battlefield. Rarely every useful, but worth noting.

It's a theme break, but we're strapped for space already. I think that we can let this one pass, especially given how rare it'll be.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? Could Last Will be used on a figure you have temporary control of, such as Eternal Hatred or Enslave? It may die during the turn you have temporary control, so can you place it on the Honored Soul-Guides army card and take a turn with it again later? Adding complication to that is mirror matches. Last Will destroys that hero at the end of the turn, so I think it would be destroyed prior to control returning to its original owner, so the original owner could not use Last Will to put it on their own Honored Soul-Guides army card.

I don't like the idea of Enslaving someone and running them into lava to use Last Will.

Has there ever been a R&C about scoring when a temporarily-controlled hero dies before? If the points are still counted for the side with permanent control, then that would imply that temporary control ends once the figure is destroyed.

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? Unique Heroes placed on the Honored Soul-Guides army card will be stranded there. I assume this is intentional. If so, is that clearly worded?

Yes, this is intentional. No purpose in moving the figures from the card once both Soul-Guides are gone.

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? Yes If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)? There are a number of others powers that can place dead figures on other army cards. How is Last Will supposed to interact with them?

Dwarven Gunners, Necromancy, and Cling don't activate off of Unique Heroes being destroyed, so there's no overlap there. Animated Material doesn't overlap directly because the Ebon Armor aren't heroes and so they can't be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, but there is the issue of Eternal War activating off of a potential Unique Hero death. My interpretation is that them replacing the destroyed figure implies that it can't be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides at the same time.

For the various Spirits, currently those heroes can be placed on the card from any distance instead of just within 4 spaces, still be temporarily revived with Last Will, and then once they're destroyed they can be placed on a new Unique Army Card. Since they can be placed on the card without Last Will, that also means that the same figure can be revived multiple times.

I'm personally not a fan of the interaction with Spirits powers, but I believe that I was alone in that regard.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? If the Marro Hive is taken by Last Will, and the Honored Soul-Guides give up their turn to bring it back and take a turn, can it use Hive Mind to take more turns beforehand?

Can the Hive be placed by Last Will in the first place? I know that there's a ruling that it can never move, but I'm not sure if this encompasses being placed on the card and then placed on the battlefield again.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? If the Honored Soul-Guides have one or more Unique Heroes on their army card when they are Mind Shackled, can the new owner take turns with those Unique Heroes which belong to the other player?

Soul Devour only specifies to remove Order Markers from the controlled card, and Last Will doesn't require that you control the destroyed Unique Hero being revived (only that you control them when they're being placed), so I think that the new owner can take turns with Unique Heroes that were already placed.

1. Does it create bonding chains/loops? For a power like Hive Mind, can the Marro Hive take a turn with a Marro squad before taking it turn when taking a turn with Last Will? How about other "instead of taking a turn" powers like Kato Katsuro's Command?

I'd say that "instead of taking a turn" powers are fair game for being used under Last Will.

1. How does it interact with various forms of bonding? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use bonding?

This depends on the specific power, but if a Unique Hero has bonding that doesn't require an Order Marker being revealed on them first, then I think that it works.

2. How does it interact with powers that allow other units to take turns instead of the unit with the order marker? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use an "instead of taking a turn" power?

Yes.

7. How does it interact with Rejected by Death? Rejected by Death would happen at the start of the Unique Hero's turn that is going via Last Will. Could Rejected by Death be used to remove the figure from the Honored Soul-Guides army card? If so, can it be placed back on the card after it dies again?

I'd say that Rejected by Death lets the figure be revived permanently off of the Honored Soul-Guides' card, but since they were already placed by Last Will there once before, they cannot be placed again.

12. How does it interact with EMP Response? If the Unique Hero taking a turn with Last Will is a Soulborg, and it gets hit with EMP Response, it's turn ends immediately. There is no "end of turn" phase, so the auto-destruct that Last Will tacks on would not happen. Changing to be "after taking that turn" is needed to fix that, though that will clash with some other effects.


EMP Response says that the attacking figure must immediately end its turn. Is saying "at the end of that turn" in Last Will not sufficient to activate even if the turn is forcibly cut short?

2. How does it interact with Zombies Rise Again/Zombie Rises Again/Bloodborn Rising? Could a Zombie Hulk on the Honored Soul-Guides army card Rise Again? If so, could it be put back on the Honored Soul-Guides army card due to Last Will?

Yes to being revived via other means, no to being placed on the Soul-Guides' card again via Last Will.

3. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Placing the Unique Hero on the turn due to Last Will could trigger these powers, and could be killed by them before taking a turn. In which case, the Unique Hero never gets a turn, which implies you would not need to destroy an Honored Soul-Guide at the end of that figure's turn. Is that how it's intended?

My interpretation is that even if the figure is destroyed while being placed, they still attempted to take a turn and a Soul-Guide would still be destroyed along with them.

25. How does it interact with Bloodlust/Demonblade? If a Tagawa destroys a Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will with Counter Strike, it would get a Bloodlust marker. Is this ok?

I have no qualms with this.

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? The destruction of a Unique Hero could trigger both Eternal War and the capture part of Last Will.

The "replace that figure" language on Eternal War gives me pause here. If the figure is being placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, then I don't think that they can simultaneously be replaced on the battlefield.

Scytale
September 17th, 2019, 04:22 PM
6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? Could Last Will be used on a figure you have temporary control of, such as Eternal Hatred or Enslave? It may die during the turn you have temporary control, so can you place it on the Honored Soul-Guides army card and take a turn with it again later? Adding complication to that is mirror matches. Last Will destroys that hero at the end of the turn, so I think it would be destroyed prior to control returning to its original owner, so the original owner could not use Last Will to put it on their own Honored Soul-Guides army card.I don't like the idea of Enslaving someone and running them into lava to use Last Will.

Has there ever been a R&C about scoring when a temporarily-controlled hero dies before? If the points are still counted for the side with permanent control, then that would imply that temporary control ends once the figure is destroyed.
There are no official rules for scoring of any sort. Any such rulings would be tournament-director-created.

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? Yes If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)? There are a number of others powers that can place dead figures on other army cards. How is Last Will supposed to interact with them?Dwarven Gunners, Necromancy, and Cling don't activate off of Unique Heroes being destroyed, so there's no overlap there. Animated Material doesn't overlap directly because the Ebon Armor aren't heroes and so they can't be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, but there is the issue of Eternal War activating off of a potential Unique Hero death. My interpretation is that them replacing the destroyed figure implies that it can't be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides at the same time.

For the various Spirits, currently those heroes can be placed on the card from any distance instead of just within 4 spaces, still be temporarily revived with Last Will, and then once they're destroyed they can be placed on a new Unique Army Card. Since they can be placed on the card without Last Will, that also means that the same figure can be revived multiple times.

I'm personally not a fan of the interaction with Spirits powers, but I believe that I was alone in that regard.
Oy oy. That is not-cool territory. Heroscape is exceedingly vague when it comes to language like placing things on cards. (For example: Negation markers.) They seem to exist only as reminders, not as a real game mechanic. This ruling with Spirits upends that, making the placing of the figure on the card (regardless of means) a game mechanic instead of just a reminder. That's a significant and potentially dangerous shift. Not something I would want to see added to VC, but there's obviously more leeway here.

Though I have to ask, why go with such an odd, complex design with lots of potential corner case problems and a long list of R&Cs for what is designed to be a "starter set?" This feels like a 4th expansion addition, not a core set design.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? If the Marro Hive is taken by Last Will, and the Honored Soul-Guides give up their turn to bring it back and take a turn, can it use Hive Mind to take more turns beforehand? Can the Hive be placed by Last Will in the first place? I know that there's a ruling that it can never move, but I'm not sure if this encompasses being placed on the card and then placed on the battlefield again.
Well, there is no rule that prevents the Marro Hive from being removed from the board when it dies (actually, originally that was the rule, but it was revoked). And as far as I know, the Revive Glyph can bring it back like anything else. Or Revenant's Tome.

1. Does it create bonding chains/loops? For a power like Hive Mind, can the Marro Hive take a turn with a Marro squad before taking it turn when taking a turn with Last Will? How about other "instead of taking a turn" powers like Kato Katsuro's Command?I'd say that "instead of taking a turn" powers are fair game for being used under Last Will.
For the record, I don't love the mix of Last Will with lots of potential bonus or replacement turn powers. Messy and prone to problems.

7. How does it interact with Rejected by Death? Rejected by Death would happen at the start of the Unique Hero's turn that is going via Last Will. Could Rejected by Death be used to remove the figure from the Honored Soul-Guides army card? If so, can it be placed back on the card after it dies again?I'd say that Rejected by Death lets the figure be revived permanently off of the Honored Soul-Guides' card, but since they were already placed by Last Will there once before, they cannot be placed again.
I don't think it's very clear that the "once only" restriction for Last Will is for the placement of the figure on the Soul-Guides army card and not placement back on the board, but I'm comfortable with an R&C for that.

12. How does it interact with EMP Response? If the Unique Hero taking a turn with Last Will is a Soulborg, and it gets hit with EMP Response, it's turn ends immediately. There is no "end of turn" phase, so the auto-destruct that Last Will tacks on would not happen. Changing to be "after taking that turn" is needed to fix that, though that will clash with some other effects.
EMP Response says that the attacking figure must immediately end its turn. Is saying "at the end of that turn" in Last Will not sufficient to activate even if the turn is forcibly cut short?
It is not sufficient. EMP Response "immediately ends" a figure's turn, cutting off all abilities (even ones currently in progress!). There is no "end of turn" phase anymore. It's a problem we struggled with in C3V with the Zettian Deathwings which originally had Hyper Speed, which unfortunately would still trigger after EMP Response since it takes place "after taking a turn." So we created Hyper Speed Burst to move the power within the turn.

3. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Placing the Unique Hero on the turn due to Last Will could trigger these powers, and could be killed by them before taking a turn. In which case, the Unique Hero never gets a turn, which implies you would not need to destroy an Honored Soul-Guide at the end of that figure's turn. Is that how it's intended?My interpretation is that even if the figure is destroyed while being placed, they still attempted to take a turn and a Soul-Guide would still be destroyed along with them.
That wouldn't be my interpretation. Being placed on the board and taking a turn with the figure are two separate effects, and destruction due to the first would cause the second not to happen. And since the destruction of the Soul-Guide is explicitly tied to the Hero's turn, it wouldn't happen either.

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? The destruction of a Unique Hero could trigger both Eternal War and the capture part of Last Will.The "replace that figure" language on Eternal War gives me pause here. If the figure is being placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, then I don't think that they can simultaneously be replaced on the battlefield.
"Replace" doesn't mean anything in Heroscape terminology. It's a removal of one figure and the placement of another. The word is just used to clarify where the new figure it to be placed. Trying to define it as something different than that is madness, as it raises all sorts of questions like whether or not Engagement Strike should trigger.

Astroking112
September 18th, 2019, 05:40 PM
I don't like the idea of Enslaving someone and running them into lava to use Last Will.

Has there ever been a R&C about scoring when a temporarily-controlled hero dies before? If the points are still counted for the side with permanent control, then that would imply that temporary control ends once the figure is destroyed.
There are no official rules for scoring of any sort. Any such rulings would be tournament-director-created.

The rulebooks note that players can choose to decide the outcome of a game by counting up the remaining number of points for each side (ignoring partial scoring). It's not very detailed, but it looks like this is based on number of surviving figures on the battlefield anyway, so it skirts the issue of when temporary control ends.

I would still prefer for Last Will to not work with temporary control, but I'm hesitant to add verbiage making the distinction of permanent control. Notably, Tetsuo Tyrell is designed around a similar temporary control mechanic to Enslave, so this is definitely a case that we need to address, and I'm not very comfortable with leaving this one to a R&C.

Dwarven Gunners, Necromancy, and Cling don't activate off of Unique Heroes being destroyed, so there's no overlap there. Animated Material doesn't overlap directly because the Ebon Armor aren't heroes and so they can't be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, but there is the issue of Eternal War activating off of a potential Unique Hero death. My interpretation is that them replacing the destroyed figure implies that it can't be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides at the same time.

For the various Spirits, currently those heroes can be placed on the card from any distance instead of just within 4 spaces, still be temporarily revived with Last Will, and then once they're destroyed they can be placed on a new Unique Army Card. Since they can be placed on the card without Last Will, that also means that the same figure can be revived multiple times.

I'm personally not a fan of the interaction with Spirits powers, but I believe that I was alone in that regard.
Oy oy. That is not-cool territory. Heroscape is exceedingly vague when it comes to language like placing things on cards. (For example: Negation markers.) They seem to exist only as reminders, not as a real game mechanic. This ruling with Spirits upends that, making the placing of the figure on the card (regardless of means) a game mechanic instead of just a reminder. That's a significant and potentially dangerous shift. Not something I would want to see added to VC, but there's obviously more leeway here.

That's a good point; I had forgotten that the markers and Spirit figures being placed on their own don't do anything other than remind players of the power's effect.

That said, we have several other powers in VC that function by removing figures placed on a card by other powers. Necromancy and Eternal War are both separated from the placement mechanic (personally, this is a big reason why I wanted Last Will to be split into two powers--one placing destroyed heroes on the card, and one reviving them--back when it was discussed).

If the spirits are just reminders, though, then technically even if we allow them to be revived, the spirit bonus on the Honored Soul-Guides still persists (and that spirit could even be used a second time when they're destroyed again by Last Will), which is just strange. I think that most players probably wouldn't have this interpretation, so we do have some leeway, but I admittedly don't know what a ruling the other way would fully entail.

Can the Hive be placed by Last Will in the first place? I know that there's a ruling that it can never move, but I'm not sure if this encompasses being placed on the card and then placed on the battlefield again.
Well, there is no rule that prevents the Marro Hive from being removed from the board when it dies (actually, originally that was the rule, but it was revoked). And as far as I know, the Revive Glyph can bring it back like anything else. Or Revenant's Tome.

From the Swarm of the Marro rulebook: "The Marro Hive may never be moved from its starting location by any special power on any Army Card or Glyph."

I'm not sure if we ever saw a ruling about how this applies in relation to Sturla or the Revenant's Tome, but I'm under the impression that the Hive couldn't be revived by those means, either, unless it can somehow be placed into its starting location. If this isn't something that has been addressed before, it might be worth clarifying beyond the scope of this set as well.

I'd say that "instead of taking a turn" powers are fair game for being used under Last Will.
For the record, I don't love the mix of Last Will with lots of potential bonus or replacement turn powers. Messy and prone to problems.

I'm hesitant as well, but since it's instead of taking a turn with the Soul-Guides, I'm not aware of any turn-splicing problems. The main potential for breakage is in the "destroy at the end of the turn" language, as you noted.

EMP Response says that the attacking figure must immediately end its turn. Is saying "at the end of that turn" in Last Will not sufficient to activate even if the turn is forcibly cut short?
It is not sufficient. EMP Response "immediately ends" a figure's turn, cutting off all abilities (even ones currently in progress!). There is no "end of turn" phase anymore. It's a problem we struggled with in C3V with the Zettian Deathwings which originally had Hyper Speed, which unfortunately would still trigger after EMP Response since it takes place "after taking a turn." So we created Hyper Speed Burst to move the power within the turn.

I don't view it as an "end of turn" phase, but the terminology is pretty vague. Is this something that we could R&C to say that the "end of turn" terminology applies any time that the turn is ended, even through a power such as EMP Response?

I'd like to work around EMP Response if possible, because I feel like "after taking a turn" could lead to more clashes than this route.

My interpretation is that even if the figure is destroyed while being placed, they still attempted to take a turn and a Soul-Guide would still be destroyed along with them.
That wouldn't be my interpretation. Being placed on the board and taking a turn with the figure are two separate effects, and destruction due to the first would cause the second not to happen. And since the destruction of the Soul-Guide is explicitly tied to the Hero's turn, it wouldn't happen either.

You make a good point. I'd personally prefer it to work the other way (I feel like the hero being destroyed before taking a turn resulting in neither ghost disappearing isn't intuitive).

Would destroying a Honored Soul-Guide and replacing them with the destroyed hero be a viable alternative to destroying the Soul-Guide at the same time as the revived hero?

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? The destruction of a Unique Hero could trigger both Eternal War and the capture part of Last Will.The "replace that figure" language on Eternal War gives me pause here. If the figure is being placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, then I don't think that they can simultaneously be replaced on the battlefield.
"Replace" doesn't mean anything in Heroscape terminology. It's a removal of one figure and the placement of another. The word is just used to clarify where the new figure it to be placed. Trying to define it as something different than that is madness, as it raises all sorts of questions like whether or not Engagement Strike should trigger.[/QUOTE]

Logically, I feel like a figure can't replace something that isn't there, but it has of course never come up in games before. If we need to let the powers interact this way, then I can live with it.

I am curious as to what kinds of madness it would entail, though. My impression is that it would act just like placing does, but rely on removing the figure first, so things like Engagement Strike wouldn't be any different than normal placement powers.

Though I have to ask, why go with such an odd, complex design with lots of potential corner case problems and a long list of R&Cs for what is designed to be a "starter set?" This feels like a 4th expansion addition, not a core set design.

For the record, I agree that these guys are much more complex than what we would normally see in a Master Set. My impression from discussion earlier was that we find the direction and gameplay to be compelling enough to justify this complexity (and I know that others expressed the belief that the problematic cases can be resolved with logical reasoning), but I'll let anyone else who feels differently make the case for it. I do like the current design, but I also understand that it's packaging a bundle of potential problems into the starter set, which I'm not a big fan of.

flameslayer93
September 18th, 2019, 05:47 PM
If the Revenant’s Tome version of Last Will is too complex for a MS, I’m open to pushing this back into Design. I think we still have enough room to get this unit right. :)

Astroking112
September 18th, 2019, 11:42 PM
Something else worth considering is that Pod 1 has been considering a negative spirit aura on the Ob Nixilus sculpt. If the other player places him on the Honored Soul-Guides, can they then revive him with Last Will? If so, can that player then place Ob Nixilus back on a card in his original army after he is destroyed?

flameslayer93
September 19th, 2019, 03:32 AM
I think we had best look at the rulings for Revenant’s Tome to best decide that ruling, and if we even want to go down that path.

Scytale
September 19th, 2019, 10:41 AM
I think we had best look at the rulings for Revenantís Tome to best decide that ruling, and if we even want to go down that path.
Revenant's Tome is an ugly thing. It's only sort of ok that it's ugly because it is very rare to have and quite special. That also means there are almost no rulings for it, since corner cases almost never happen.

One fundamental difference here is that Revenant's Tome does not give a turn, just an attack. That's all sorts of problematic in an of itself, but again, rare thing. It also specifically is unaffected by all special powers and glyphs while on the field (though that too is poorly defined).

Revenant's Tome is one of the worst things the ODs ever created, right up there with Charging Assault wording. It's really a "get away with it" because it's so rare thing. It definitely should not be reused on a unit.

Pumpkin_King
September 22nd, 2019, 01:01 AM
WE could push back to design if the rules headaches are too weird.

Have we considered putting a Guide on a dead card, and letting the other one use that card's powers?

Astroking112
September 22nd, 2019, 01:10 AM
WE could push back to design if the rules headaches are too weird.

Have we considered putting a Guide on a dead card, and letting the other one use that card's powers?

I'm very hesitant to do anything that adds powers to another card so explicitly. Many Unique Hero powers were designed for heroes, after all, and could lead to confusing interactions when used by a squad. On the other hand, Unique Squads often have abilities unique to them--what happens if we let the Soul-Guides use Animated Material? What about Water Clone? Opening them up to use the abilities from another card sounds like it would be nearly impossible to implement without excessive R&Cs to me.

A more appealing alternative is to go the other way, and let them be placed on other cards in order to give some kind of an ability to those figures like normal spirits. I think that adding another power to a different card is really only feasible when we can control what the power is (although it'd still cause some potential wonkiness unless we limit it to Unique Heroes or the like, or just kept it simple to a stat boost like normal spirits).

Pumpkin_King
September 22nd, 2019, 01:12 AM
Only heroes, then? It would only be the one remaining Soul Guide on the field using the power.

But then, that would make them less than useless if one is destroyed. Hmm.

flameslayer93
September 22nd, 2019, 01:12 AM
WE could push back to design if the rules headaches are too weird.

Have we considered putting a Guide on a dead card, and letting the other one use that card's powers?

Gaining powers is probably also too much. We may be better off going back to the d20 chance of killing and accepting that not every Jandar unit is purely goody two shoes. *cough* Vikings *cough*

All Your Pie
September 22nd, 2019, 01:14 AM
A much less thorny direction would be a simple stat buff. "Honored Soulguides get +1A/+1D for each destroyed unique hero in your army, to a maximum of +3" or somesuch. It would be a much less flashy design and an obvious endgame unit, but I don't mind unit roles being obvious in a Master Set.

There is also the problem that we can't just handwave the weird interactions with Spirit powers when Ob Nixilis might have one of his own. That isn't set in stone yet, and I wouldn't want that potential alone to drastically change the direction here, but it's worth noting regardless.

I think it is possible to make the current powerset work, but there's no guarantee we make the best unit from it. How excited are we about it now, a good ways out from when it was proposed?

flameslayer93
September 22nd, 2019, 01:18 AM
The concept is really cool. Implementation is cool. Rules are not cool. Especially true when Ob Nixilis is possibly gonna have a spirit power anyway.

Pumpkin_King
September 22nd, 2019, 02:35 AM
I'd like to keep this particular power in mind and set it on the back burner, and explore other abilities that hit the theme of a psychopomp. I'm sure we can brainstorm a couple ideas.

Astroking112
September 22nd, 2019, 01:19 PM
I've already stated my feelings on the complexity, but for reference: I think that this is a really cool design that players would have a lot of fun with. I'm not sure that it's worth breaking the game over, though: all of these issues need to have logical answers that make intuitive sense (or be rare enough that we can answer them in a R&C). This is also a very complex design rules-wise for a starter set, which is a big strike against it unless everything is intuitive IMO.

That said, if we wanted to keep the current direction, the best rules explanation that I can see right now is a ruling that only figures placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card via Last Will can be revived. That solves the negative spirit aura that's been discussed for Ob Nixilus, although it does lead to a weird case of you having to choose if Finn is being placed for his attack spirit or for Last Will if he's within range. I'm not a big fan of this by any stretch of the imagination, but if we wanted to keep this current mechanic, I think it'd be a necessary ruling.

It does nothing to help with the issue of temporary control powers, though, which just like the spirits, are going to be included in this same box via Tetsuo Tyrell.

All Your Pie
September 22nd, 2019, 01:39 PM
If we want to keep the Revenantís Tome powerset, can we make it work without having the ďplacing figures on their cardĒ aspect?

Pumpkin_King
September 22nd, 2019, 04:27 PM
IS there an available token that they could place on another card?

flameslayer93
September 22nd, 2019, 06:32 PM
IS there an available token that they could place on another card?

We have ďSunburstĒ tokens (4 or 5), 2 different round markers (one of the planeswalker hand like thing and one thats the innistrad symbol), and Sword/Shield Markers.

I kind of want to keep 1 of the round markers reserved for scenario use, because official scape scenarios were timed by rounds.

Astroking112
September 22nd, 2019, 11:29 PM
I just checked the Mind Flayer Mastermind's Book to see if we had any rulings dealing with this, and it looks like we do have a good answer for some of this wonkiness already:

Q. I Enslaved my opponents Viking Hero and during my turn with it, it dies (due to lava, Counterstike, Falling, Disengagement, Overextending Eldgrimm, ect.) Do I get to place the Spirit on one of my cards or does it go back to the controlling player?

A. Short answer: No.
You have only gained temporary control of the figure, when it dies, your turn is immediately over and you must give it back to the person you Enslaved it from. (Nice try though ;))

So the issue of temporary control should be resolved here. I'd argue that this ruling also implies that when the turn is interrupted by a factor other than death, the "end of the turn" power still applies as well, given that Enslave uses the same "At the end of that turn" wording, but that's not a hill that I'm going to die on (and it should be clarified in any case).

We'll still need a R&C to address this, of course, but I think that it's also the logical solution. If this is the direction that we want to proceed with, I'll let some of my less experienced groups on my campus test this unit out without any supervision and see what answer they come to.

If we want to keep the Revenant’s Tome powerset, can we make it work without having the “placing figures on their card” aspect?

That's an interesting proposal. There is still some wonkiness with spirit powers and being able to revive a dead Finn and then place him somewhere else, but overall I think that this is considerably cleaner rules-wise.

Unfortunately, it does come at the cost of making these guys all but guaranteed to sit in your starting zone the whole game. If the heroes don't have to die within a certain range of them, then it becomes an easy investment to give yourself a potential Q9 or Ozuul turn if the opponent comes close to your starting zone. It might pose a significant problem to how they play.

IS there an available token that they could place on another card?

We have “Sunburst” tokens (4 or 5), 2 different round markers (one of the planeswalker hand like thing and one thats the innistrad symbol), and Sword/Shield Markers.

I kind of want to keep 1 of the round markers reserved for scenario use, because official scape scenarios were timed by rounds.

I was under the impression that the "Sunburst" tokens were being used by Pod 1 for the Ukushia Pride.

I absolutely agree that we need a round marker for scenarios. It'd be very limiting if we didn't have access to any time limits.

A mixture of this with AYP's idea could be viable. Something along the lines of "When a Unique Hero that you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soul-Guide is destroyed, you may place a Spooky Spirit Supreme Marker on that Army Card..." and then change Last Will to only be able to revive figures with Spooky Spirit Supreme Markers on their card. It's not very smooth, but I think that it at least poses less confusion.

EDIT: I think that we should also page NecroBlade and capsocrates to see how they feel about the level of complexity. If they're fine with going back to design as well, then we could go ahead and pull the trigger instead of debating the implementation for a power set that so far most of us on have said we're fine with dropping.

capsocrates
September 24th, 2019, 12:25 AM
What if we just negate all powers on the army card for the bonus turn? Does that resolve enough issues?

Pumpkin_King
September 24th, 2019, 12:28 AM
Would take away some of the oomph both thematically and mechanically, but it's an option.

Scytale
September 24th, 2019, 03:17 PM
What if we just negate all powers on the army card for the bonus turn? Does that resolve enough issues?
It would solve the bonding chain issue, at least.

NecroBlade
September 25th, 2019, 06:58 PM
Sorry it's been a minute since I've logged on. Thanks very much Scytale for running the checklist. I'll add my thoughts...


6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? Could Last Will be used on a figure you have temporary control of, such as Eternal Hatred or Enslave? It may die during the turn you have temporary control, so can you place it on the Honored Soul-Guides army card and take a turn with it again later? Adding complication to that is mirror matches. Last Will destroys that hero at the end of the turn, so I think it would be destroyed prior to control returning to its original owner, so the original owner could not use Last Will to put it on their own Honored Soul-Guides army card.

I think precedent has been presented for this one.

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? Unique Heroes placed on the Honored Soul-Guides army card will be stranded there. I assume this is intentional.

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? Yes If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)? There are a number of others powers that can place dead figures on other army cards. How is Last Will supposed to interact with them?
Stranded how? Like Azazel couldn't use Rejected by Death? I'd disagree with that. Powers like that only care that the figure is previously destroyed, which it is.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? If the Marro Hive is taken by Last Will, and the Honored Soul-Guides give up their turn to bring it back and take a turn, can it use Hive Mind to take more turns beforehand?
I don't see why not.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? If the Honored Soul-Guides have one or more Unique Heroes on their army card when they are Mind Shackled, can the new owner take turns with those Unique Heroes which belong to the other player?
You can't have two of the same Unique figure in your army, and if you Last Will something you already have you would have two. So no.

1. Does it create bonding chains/loops? For a power like Hive Mind, can the Marro Hive take a turn with a Marro squad before taking it turn when taking a turn with Last Will? How about other "instead of taking a turn" powers like Kato Katsuro's Command?

1. How does it interact with various forms of bonding? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use bonding?

2. How does it interact with powers that allow other units to take turns instead of the unit with the order marker? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use an "instead of taking a turn" power?
See above.

7. How does it interact with Rejected by Death? Rejected by Death would happen at the start of the Unique Hero's turn that is going via Last Will. Could Rejected by Death be used to remove the figure from the Honored Soul-Guides army card? If so, can it be placed back on the card after it dies again?
I don't see why not/see above.

12. How does it interact with EMP Response? If the Unique Hero taking a turn with Last Will is a Soulborg, and it gets hit with EMP Response, it's turn ends immediately. There is no "end of turn" phase, so the auto-destruct that Last Will tacks on would not happen. Changing to be "after taking that turn" is needed to fix that, though that will clash with some other effects.

Not sure what "after taking a turn" breaks, but would "after attacking" be any better/worse?

2. How does it interact with Zombies Rise Again/Zombie Rises Again/Bloodborn Rising? Could a Zombie Hulk on the Honored Soul-Guides army card Rise Again? If so, could it be put back on the Honored Soul-Guides army card due to Last Will?
See above.

3. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Placing the Unique Hero on the turn due to Last Will could trigger these powers, and could be killed by them before taking a turn. In which case, the Unique Hero never gets a turn, which implies you would not need to destroy an Honored Soul-Guide at the end of that figure's turn. Is that how it's intended?
I suppose this would still defeat the "after attacking" suggestion, but I would be OK with that.

25. How does it interact with Bloodlust/Demonblade? If a Tagawa destroys a Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will with Counter Strike, it would get a Bloodlust marker. Is this ok?
Don't see why it wouldn't be.



Spitballing a rewrite that may or may not improve some interactions:
LAST WILL
When a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soul-Guide is destroyed, you may destroy that Honored Soul-Guide and place its figure on that Unique Hero's Army Card. Instead of taking a turn with Honored Soul-Guides, even if both are destroyed, you may remove an Honored Soul-Guide from a Unique Hero Army Card you control and place that Honored Soul-Guide on this card. Remove all wound markers from that Hero's card, place that figure adjacent to any figure you control, and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero.

Pumpkin_King
September 26th, 2019, 03:22 AM
Oh, I do like that. My instinct is that it makes them easier to use but I’m not sure how. Maybe reduces the chance that they’d be destroyed after a hero is put on their card but before they get used.

Scytale
September 26th, 2019, 12:46 PM
LAST WILL
When a Unique Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of an Honored Soul-Guide is destroyed, you may destroy that Honored Soul-Guide and place its figure on that Unique Hero's Army Card. Instead of taking a turn with Honored Soul-Guides, even if both are destroyed, you may remove an Honored Soul-Guide from a Unique Hero Army Card you control and place that Honored Soul-Guide on this card. Remove all wound markers from that Hero's card, place that figure adjacent to any figure you control, and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, you must destroy the chosen Hero.
I think it would improve some things, yes.

Astroking112
September 26th, 2019, 02:56 PM
Looking at Pod 0 as a whole, I'm of the impression that we shouldn't be making such a complicated design as this when the other three units we're bundling in involve temporary control with Mind Jack, a placement mechanic that isn't immediately intuitive such as Gravity Pull, and the weird playstyle of Project Velnesh.

The most recent suggestion for Last Will does a good job of removing some of the rules issues, but it makes the process of activating the power even less straightforward and more confusing to a new player. Remembering to destroy your Guide so that you can then take a turn with the destroyed Soul-Guides to instead take a turn with the revived hero doesn't feel immediately intuitive to me--ideally, I'd like for our players to not need to read a power multiple times to get a clear idea of how it works.

We do have some leeway with creating a complex design in this set, of course. Revenant's Tome exists as a very similar mechanic from D&DScape. On the other hand, Revenant's Tome is a random temporary power-up from an expansion in Wave D3, not the Master Set, and this is one of the first 4-8 designs out of 22 in AotV: should we really be designing something so implementation-heavy this early, especially when the other designs already come bundled with their own complexities? I think that Scytale had a great point when he said that this feels like a future expansion unit, not one that gets bundled into the base game.

My impression right now is that we'd be well-served to take this one back to Design and figure out a simpler yet still thematic unit.

capsocrates
September 26th, 2019, 07:43 PM
Hmm. I would like to see us play around with this same idea some more. Maybe it is better to do it in design, but then again I might prefer Scytale's input on rules variants. Necroblade's suggested wording definitely tips us into territory that is difficult to navigate.

flameslayer93
September 26th, 2019, 11:57 PM
After asking LoveElemental to review Last Will, she had to read the power a few times to fully process how it works. I think at the very least, we need to scale this back somewhat. While it seems fairly simple to us, it’s evident (at least from one case) that it’s just too much. Although she isn’t a complete newbie, the fact that part of the target audience (newbies and people with limited scape knowledge) had troubles understanding the power means we did something wrong.

I’ve got a few ideas kickin’ around in my head.

1) Simplify the heck out Last Will. I would drop the range and figure-on-card requirements, and just let them skip their turn in exhange for a destroyed Unique Hero turn. The process of bringing them back remains the same, and I assume we’ll cut out a ton of words.

2) Make them into little Grim Reaperlings. Maybe they have a 5% chance of auto-destroyed an adjacent figure? Maybe they reduce targetted enemy’s defense dice?

3) Make their only ability Stealth Flying. Give them a ranged attack and a bunch of speed and let players get creative.

Pumpkin_King
September 27th, 2019, 05:38 AM
I think we should really try to simplify Last Will first - if we can’t get something satisfactory we spitballed some ideas in discord that we can bring here once we kick them back to Design.

I like flameslayer’s list here, and I think we could add some options to it when/if we officially kick it back.

capsocrates
September 29th, 2019, 04:07 AM
I like idea 1. Even a super neutered version of Last Will (skip the Geist's turn, negate the hero's card, etc.) Seems really cool and Scapey to me

Pumpkin_King
September 29th, 2019, 04:38 AM
If we can make it work, it’ll be good to keep Last Will.

Here’s what I think could work. make it so that you skip a turn > destroy a Guide > return any unique hero for one turn (no restrictions [besides maybe size]) on the space that guide occupied > take a full, non-negated turn with that hero > destroy that hero.

That gives a hard cap of twice per game, (less if your opponent can destroy them) which allows the heroes to come back at full force, simplifies (cuts out entirely) the putting-figures-on-cards mechanic, and eliminates any turn-stacking concerns.

Pumpkin_King
September 30th, 2019, 04:57 AM
LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on the HSG, and instead of taking a turn with them, you may choose a small or medium Unique Hero that has been previously destroyed. Destroy an HSG and place the chosen hero on the space that HSG occupied. Take a turn with that Hero, and at the end of that hero’s turn, destroy it.


Notably this version would allow you to take turns with an opponent’s destroyed hero, which feels fun and cheeky to me.

NecroBlade
October 1st, 2019, 09:40 PM
That does simplify things and somewhat helps with the "endgame" issue since you have to position them at some point or the revenant hero's turn will be useless way in the back.

Not sure how I feel about letting them use enemy heroes.

Pumpkin_King
October 1st, 2019, 10:10 PM
That's an easy thing to switch, to be honest.

Astroking112
October 2nd, 2019, 01:38 AM
Cleaning up some wording:
LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.

I find it tough to imagine us getting Last Will much simpler than this if we're keeping the revival mechanic. I still think this is pushing the envelope, but it's certainly much better without the aura and placing figures on cards at least.

On a completely unrelated note, it bothers me slightly that the name of this thread is completely capitalized (along with several other Books in progress).

Pumpkin_King
October 2nd, 2019, 02:13 AM
Pushign the envelope in terms of complexity?

Scytale
October 2nd, 2019, 10:57 AM
I'm just going to put this out there since you're looking at a redesign anyway.

What you have (or had, originally) are creepy-looking undead things that enslave people and force them to keep fighting. Or at least that's how they'll appear on the battlefield. I did not think that when I read through them, because right away I saw they followed Jandar, and Jandar = good. That, along with the unit and power name, led me to understand what you were going for.

But the goal of this project, at least partially, is to make something accessible to new players. New players won't have the context of Jandar = good. They'll see creepy undead things, and a general who recruits creepy undead things.

I think the soul-guides concept is really neat and wonderfully outside-the-box, but that runs contrary to the goals of the project. Cool, but wrong for the target market.

capsocrates
October 2nd, 2019, 11:06 AM
I can see them looking creepy, but our goal was for them to portray bringing heroes back for one last swing. I see a kind of vague connection to the Dead souls that came to help Aragorn in the battle of the Pelennor fields. A better parallel would probably be the Heroes of the Horn from the Wheel of Time series. These "Soul Guides" bring heroes back for one last valiant aid.

capsocrates
October 2nd, 2019, 11:07 AM
Cleaning up some wording:
LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.

I find it tough to imagine us getting Last Will much simpler than this if we're keeping the revival mechanic. I still think this is pushing the envelope, but it's certainly much better without the aura and placing figures on cards at least.

On a completely unrelated note, it bothers me slightly that the name of this thread is completely capitalized (along with several other Books in progress).
I like this version of Last Will. I'm still okay with Negating the hero's powers if it cleans up the editing corner cases.

Astroking112
October 2nd, 2019, 12:26 PM
Pushign the envelope in terms of complexity?

Yes. Part of this is from the inherent complexity in reviving a figure (removing all wounds and placing them, taking a non-negated turn (or, frustratingly, the act of negating the figure also complicates the card despite simplifying the rules), destroying them afterward, etc.) and part stems from the murkier rules interactions such as reviving Viking Spirits to apply Finn to two different cards simultaneously (up to 3 if you revive him twice). I love this design, but I don't think it's well-suited to a Master Set because it comes with a lot of baggage and likely R&Cs. :shrug:

Pumpkin_King
October 3rd, 2019, 12:05 AM
Wait....why does reviving Finn let you give his bonus multiple times?


I also don't think negating the card will be required.

Pumpkin_King
October 3rd, 2019, 12:05 AM
I can see them looking creepy, but our goal was for them to portray bringing heroes back for one last swing. I see a kind of vague connection to the Dead souls that came to help Aragorn in the battle of the Pelennor fields. A better parallel would probably be the Heroes of the Horn from the Wheel of Time series. These "Soul Guides" bring heroes back for one last valiant aid.
Yeah, this is the intended theme. They're Psychopomps for a reason.

Astroking112
October 3rd, 2019, 12:11 AM
Wait....why does reviving Finn let you give his bonus multiple times?

I believe that the ruling is that placing Finn or another "Spirit" on a card serves as a reminder of that power, rather than the source of the boost. Even if he is somehow removed from the card (such as by Last Will), the boost is still active.

Pumpkin_King
October 3rd, 2019, 12:17 AM
What is the precedent for this ruling? I looked in Finn's Book and didn't see it.

Scytale
October 3rd, 2019, 10:31 AM
I can see them looking creepy, but our goal was for them to portray bringing heroes back for one last swing. I see a kind of vague connection to the Dead souls that came to help Aragorn in the battle of the Pelennor fields. A better parallel would probably be the Heroes of the Horn from the Wheel of Time series. These "Soul Guides" bring heroes back for one last valiant aid.
Yeah, this is the intended theme. They're Psychopomps for a reason.
I know you all get the theme, and I get it. I just don't think the target market for this project will necessarily get it.

Pumpkin_King
October 3rd, 2019, 07:21 PM
I think most of us here would like to see some version of Last Will before we resort to a redesign. Iím torn on whether we need to go back or not.

Tornado
October 3rd, 2019, 07:28 PM
Cool design. There is a glyph that does something like this correct?

Pumpkin_King
October 9th, 2019, 01:10 AM
I say we push ahead on these guys with as simple a wording of Last Will as we can manage, and make a list of the edge cases. Maybe we can come up with something that addresses those edge cases.

Astroking112
October 9th, 2019, 01:51 AM
Looks like I'm in the minority for a redesign. Is this the version that we're happy with?


HONORED SOUL-GUIDES
Jandar

Undead
Unique Squad
Psychopomps
Stoic
Medium 5

LIFE 1 (2 figures)
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 2
DEFENSE 4

50 POINTS

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. An Honored Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If an Honored Soul-Guide is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Pumpkin_King
October 9th, 2019, 01:59 AM
I’m open to a redesign for sure. We sptballed a few ideas the other day. I just think we should push a little harder on this version and try to get it to work.

All Your Pie
October 9th, 2019, 03:48 AM
I think it will be pretty apparent in testing whether or not Last Will is mechanically satisfying and enjoyable enough to be worth all the rigamarole. Currently my main point of hesitation is that I donít see these guys going as low as 50 with it, and they might creep up into a point range that weíre making pretty crowded already. But we canít answer any of this easily without at least a little testing, so we may as well go ahead.

Pumpkin_King
October 9th, 2019, 04:29 AM
On the plus side - if we decide that we’re going too complex/too high point value, that gives us some pretty heavy restraints to work with on the remaining units, which can be a good thing.

capsocrates
October 9th, 2019, 11:24 AM
I'm happy with that version as a starting point if editing is okay with it.

NecroBlade
October 19th, 2019, 03:37 PM
I, too, would prefer working with the revive mechanic before attempting a redesign if necessary. Putting this wording in the OP.


After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.

Pumpkin_King
October 19th, 2019, 06:38 PM
Works for me!

NecroBlade
October 27th, 2019, 09:59 AM
I get that there are strong Large/Huge figures, like Dragons, but do we want to test that first before limiting Last Will to Small/Medium? Plus it would be fun to bring Ozuul back to surprise **** up everyone's placement.

Pumpkin_King
October 29th, 2019, 04:16 AM
I put that in because I don’t think there’s precedent for placing a double-spaced hero in the space a single-spaced figure occupied.

Astroking112
November 3rd, 2019, 03:32 PM
I put that in because I donít think thereís precedent for placing a double-spaced hero in the space a single-spaced figure occupied.

I was going to point out summoning powers that can move large and huge figures, but I can't think of any cases that specifically replace a single-spaced figure with a double-spaced one. It's close to existing powers like Tul-Bak-Ra's Teleport Reinforcements that can place Grok Riders adjacent to him (despite them being double-spaced), but I'm not sure if we want to mess with that here.

Small or medium Unique Heroes (or even just medium) still gives plenty of reviving opportunities, especially in this set. It also might result in a bit more diversity just in AotV, because the Ozuul player isn't immediately going to draft these guys to get some extra turns in with the big bad.

Pumpkin_King
November 3rd, 2019, 04:14 PM
That was my thought too. We won't have tp balance them around rezzing Q9 or Braxas or Nilfheim either.

Astroking112
November 3rd, 2019, 04:20 PM
Yeah, after further reflection I think that I'm with you here. There are still plenty of fun medium heroes to make the revival worthwhile (Sonlen, Sgt. Drake Alexander, one of our own upcoming heroes, etc.) without centering it entirely around the normal huge powerhouses. The fact that it makes the power a little functionally simpler is also a bonus.

From a complexity standpoint, we do still have to worry about stuff like Kato Katsuro and Kurrok being brought back to create turns within turns, but this is more workable at the very least.

Pumpkin_King
November 3rd, 2019, 04:56 PM
Since it replaces the Soulguides' turn, I don't think it's a power concern. It's functionally no different then revealing an OM on the card. Maybe a complexity issue.

Astroking112
November 3rd, 2019, 05:04 PM
Yeah, I think that it's not a full turn-stacking issue since it's essentially the same as having revealed the Order Marker on that card in most cases, but it does lead to some more complex interactions as a result. In my opinion, the main problem is whether this is too complex for a Master Set at this point.

Pumpkin_King
November 3rd, 2019, 05:13 PM
It would be great to have someone who's never played or only played a little to look over the abilities. Hmm.

NecroBlade
November 8th, 2019, 10:00 AM
I'll have to try to remember to maybe take them to our next local event and see what people think.

EDIT: FWIW, it seems the C3V would (currently) potentially allow replacing a Medium Acolyte (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53412) with a Large Demon. Something to keep in mind size-wise for move/replace powers.

Astroking112
November 8th, 2019, 02:38 PM
That's a good point on the Acolytes being able to summon double-spaced figures. I give it a little bit more leeway because of them being an expansion for already dedicated fans, but mechanically I guess that it would work.

I'm still a little fond of limiting it to the medium guys to give them some more love, but I could see us going either way.

Pumpkin_King
November 8th, 2019, 02:45 PM
I'd say we should just limit it to Medium, yeah. IT feels right for this design.

Pumpkin_King
November 8th, 2019, 03:28 PM
I asked a person who has played on TTS with me exactly once and he said it was easily understandable.

Astroking112
November 8th, 2019, 03:31 PM
I'll show the design to some of the people who only play the game once per month and know a handful of units at my next campus event to see what they think.

All Your Pie
December 6th, 2019, 05:38 PM
I showed the current stage of our designs to a less experienced 'scape player looking specifically for feedback on complexity/comprehension.

They didn't really have any trouble parsing this card. They commented that it's a kind of effect that a lot of games have, so they were able to apply knowledge from other systems in interpreting the ability. They also noted that they pretty much immediately knew how the design needed to be played in order to be effective, as a unit that needs to stay around until the endgame.

Pumpkin_King
December 6th, 2019, 09:36 PM
Would it be useful for me to show the two powers to people who don't know of heroscape? I’m in a lot of discords and chat rooms devoted to various games or gaming in general that I could ask.

NecroBlade
December 8th, 2019, 02:41 PM
I don't think it hurts us to show anything we think might need addressing. These guys offer such a great, unique power/theme, hopefully the feedback continues to be that the concept is easy to understand.

Pumpkin_King
December 8th, 2019, 05:10 PM
Yesterday, I asked five people who didn't know what game the ability was from - four gave me a plain-english description of what they thought was happening. They were all correct. The fifth was in a hurry, but they said they understood it well enough.

The Long eared bat
December 13th, 2019, 12:54 PM
I think this is a really cool design.

Pumpkin_King
December 13th, 2019, 02:42 PM
Me too. I think we can make this work. Let’s treat this as a bump to get back into it.

flameslayer93
December 13th, 2019, 03:14 PM
The feedback has been mostly positive from non-scapers. :up: to move to editing.

NecroBlade
December 13th, 2019, 09:13 PM
Just read the power aloud to DeceitfulBeauty in the other room asking her to say what she thought it did, and she said "Bad necromancy?" Asking why, she elaborated "The Hero doesn't last very long." I explained a little of the idea of guiding the already-dead hero, to which she responded "Psychopomps!"

I think we're doing OK. :)

Do we have an official vote going?

flameslayer93
December 13th, 2019, 09:21 PM
Just read the power aloud to DeceitfulBeauty in the other room asking her to say what she thought it did, and she said "Bad necromancy?" Asking why, she elaborated "The Hero doesn't last very long." I explained a little of the idea of guiding the already-dead hero, to which she responded "Psychopomps!"

I think we're doing OK. :)

Do we have an official vote going?

May as well now.

All Your Pie
December 13th, 2019, 10:34 PM
Voting for editing? :up: from me.

Scytale
December 14th, 2019, 12:25 PM
Voting for editing? :up: from me.
I need to redo the Editing stuff.

Pumpkin_King
December 21st, 2019, 03:02 PM
Very happy to get these guys back on track. Theyíre some of my favorite designs from the set. :up: if you need my vote to go to editing.

NecroBlade
December 22nd, 2019, 10:15 PM
@Scytale are we actually voting again here, or do you just need to run the checklist again?

I also love that there's another Unique 2-figure Squad.

Scytale
December 29th, 2019, 11:30 PM
@Scytale are we actually voting again here, or do you just need to run the checklist again?
I have to run the checklist again.

Pumpkin_King
December 30th, 2019, 07:58 PM
Excellent. Either way we're moving ahead on these.

Pumpkin_King
January 21st, 2020, 04:47 AM
Bumping this for when time is available.

Pumpkin_King
April 10th, 2020, 05:01 PM
DocBlizz has been doing some playtests on this version of the SGs. Based on his tests we might discuss making LW easier to use, or giving them a better opportunity to get into position before using it. Higher move/defense, making having LW trigger after moving, etc.

Astroking112
April 10th, 2020, 05:15 PM
DocBlizz has been doing some playtests on this version of the SGs. Based on his tests we might discuss making LW easier to use, or giving them a better opportunity to get into position before using it. Higher move/defense, making having LW trigger after moving, etc.

Are you suggesting making changes to Last Will? If so, then I think that we should discuss and implement any of those changes before Scytale runs the checklist again. Even a relatively simpler change like letting the Guides move before Last Will triggers changes the rules interactions, after all.

I have some thoughts on the other suggestions and this unit's place, but I'll save those for after Editing unless we're feeling the need to make any immediate changes. Suffice it to say that I think that the concerns raised so far can be addressed without a LW revamp.

Pumpkin_King
April 10th, 2020, 05:19 PM
Not a total revamp, no, I think we can fix it with tweaks. But you're right, let's wait for editing and then see what kind of work we can do.

NecroBlade
April 10th, 2020, 08:51 PM
I'm OK with the idea of them drawing fire and needing to survive in order to fling a Hero at you. But if they don't seem useful at all, there are plenty of ways we can tweak the range or timing to make sure they have some potential.

Pumpkin_King
April 20th, 2020, 03:45 PM
I did a test with the current version of the HSG - they stayed in the start zone until a mind-jacked Syvarris killed one, then I used the other to bring back Syv to kill Tetsuo. I wanted to test for the usability of LW, but I didn't really get to this match. Using LW felt really good and intuitive, however. My wife, who has played maybe three games total, easily understood it.

NecroBlade
April 24th, 2020, 10:00 PM
I had an idea for these guys the other day and wasn't able to get on and post it right away, but now that I'm trying to remember it, I don't think it improved upon the current power without creating issues. I know it means saving them in the start zone, but we could try letting take their normal turn first anyway. Also, if it's truly "Last" Will, how about this to make sure you can only use a Hero once?

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of and taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control without an Honored Soul-Guide on its Army Card. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero. Place the destroyed Honored Soul-Guide on that Hero's Army Card.

Astroking112
April 25th, 2020, 12:21 AM
Looks like the title of this thread never got updated to reflect that we're in Editing. NecroBlade, do you mind fixing that when you get a chance?

I'm cool with trying out letting the Soul-Guides take a turn first before reviving a hero, but let's keep in mind that we're giving Nilfheim 11 move with flying, Q9 a huge threat range, etc. It sucks, but we need to balance with those guys in mind first, even if it's just one more turn.

The idea of limiting the hero revival to once per figure is interesting, although I'm not a huge fan of placing the figures on the card. We could just specify "...remove that hero from the game" at the end of the power to signify that they're no longer eligible, or even directly spell out "Heroes cannot be chosen for Last Will more than once per game." I'm not sure how much cleaner that is in practice, but it might be less confusing for new players (and remembering whether Pyria came back to life or not for your first ghost should be pretty easy).

NecroBlade
May 2nd, 2020, 05:19 PM
Last time I checked Nilf and Q9 weren't small or medium, something we settled on a while back for this power. ;)

"Removing figures from the game" isn't ever officially done in any powers, so I'd hesitate to introduce it here (I have a couple customs I like with it, but I wouldn't try to make it official). Reusing "place this figure on a card" seems a simple, clean enough way to do it, IMO. And it gives you a visual reminder, so I don't see how that's not at least as easy as just "remembering" you already revived Pyria.

Pumpkin_King
May 2nd, 2020, 07:43 PM
Using small or medium was to avoid double-space placement issues but it does do a lot to help power concerns.

Pumpkin_King
May 2nd, 2020, 07:44 PM
I'm ambivalent on whether they should be able to use a hero only once - if you guys think that's needed and we can feasibly do it, then cool. It'll probably reduce their cost.

NecroBlade
May 4th, 2020, 08:11 PM
It makes way more sense with the name Last Will. :shrug:

capsocrates
May 13th, 2020, 11:25 AM
If it doesn't make the power too complicated I would be okay with that. Is the feeling that they're already needing a little extra oomph, though?

Astroking112
May 13th, 2020, 01:47 PM
I'm not bothered by heroes coming back twice, even when the power is named Last Will. I could see us making the change for balance reasons, though--limiting their revivals to different heroes makes it harder to throw them in to a 200-point powerhouse for two extra turns and encourages more hero-builds.

I have a slight preference towards leaving out the restriction for the sake of simplicity, but I can live with adding it if the majority of the pod feels like it would be a good change.


"Removing figures from the game" isn't ever officially done in any powers, so I'd hesitate to introduce it here (I have a couple customs I like with it, but I wouldn't try to make it official). Reusing "place this figure on a card" seems a simple, clean enough way to do it, IMO. And it gives you a visual reminder, so I don't see how that's not at least as easy as just "remembering" you already revived Pyria.

I'm okay with introducing "remove from the game" wording if it hasn't been done before since it's relatively intuitive what that means.

I'm hesitant to use so many "place this figure on a card" powers for a variety of reasons (creates more clutter, is more likely to overlap with other powers like Viking Spirits, thematically it doesn't fit as well as spirits or parasites being placed, etc.), but if we want to limit it to one revival per hero, then I can live with it.

capsocrates
May 13th, 2020, 02:26 PM
:down: to "remove from the game" wording.

NecroBlade
May 13th, 2020, 10:41 PM
If it doesn't make the power too complicated I would be okay with that. Is the feeling that they're already needing a little extra oomph, though?

They do seem a little behind the curve so far I think, but with a lot of potential. I don't think there's really any added complexity, since the HSGs themselves hang around as reminders.


LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card and taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control without an Honored Soul-Guide on its Army Card. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero. Place the destroyed Honored Soul-Guide on that Hero's Army Card.

I could see us making the change for balance reasons, though--limiting their revivals to different heroes makes it harder to throw them in to a 200-point powerhouse for two extra turns and encourages more hero-builds.

I'm okay with introducing "remove from the game" wording if it hasn't been done before since it's relatively intuitive what that means.
I also really like that as another reason to limit it to once-per-hero: diversifying armies.

As for "remove from the game", the only thing I could think that's sort of similar is maybe dropping figures due to maxed out start zones? Unless that sets a clear precedent, though, I can't see us creating a whole new set of rules around it just for these guys when it can also be accomplished with the tools we already have.

Captain Stupendous
May 14th, 2020, 02:35 PM
If further testing shows that the Honored Soul Guides are still underperforming a little, I thought of a couple ideas that could give them a bit of a boost.

Last Will
After revealing a numbered Order Marker on an Army Card you control, instead of taking a turn with that card you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.

This would allow you to have a bit of order marker flexibility, and also allow you to use their main gimmick without risking order markers on them (other than getting them into position).

Another idea I had (and this would be a much more fundamental change) would involve allowing Last Will to work whenever a Soul-Guide is destroyed. This could look something like

Journey to the Underworld
After revealing an order marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with this card you may destroy an Honored Soul-Guide you control.

Last Will
Whenever an Honored Soul-Guide you control is destroyed, you may immediately choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that hero's Army Card. Before the next order marker is revealed by any player, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.

With this change, the Soul-Guides could be very effective at tying down your opponent's figures, as their enemies won't really want to kill them unless they have to. This might be too drastic of a change to the design of the unit and would probably require a point adjustment, but I figured it couldn't hurt to throw out as an idea, even if its the less feasible of the two suggestions.

capsocrates
May 14th, 2020, 02:51 PM
The trouble with the "Whenever ... is destroyed..." wording is turn interruption gets pretty nasty. You'd have to have a clause about waiting until the current turn ends, which means interrupting possible turn chains (like bonding) and it just gets weird. Not what we want in a master set for sure.

Thanks for getting creative, though. I do like the idea.

Captain Stupendous
May 14th, 2020, 02:59 PM
Journey to the Underworld
After revealing an order marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with this card you may destroy an Honored Soul-Guide you control.

Last Will
Whenever an Honored Soul-Guide you control is destroyed, you may immediately choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that hero's Army Card. Before the next order marker is revealed by any player, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't the phrase "Before the next order marker is revealed by any player" prevent them from interrupting turn chains? I didn't think the timing would be any different than the timing for Axentia's Phoenix Rising (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57255) power that showed up in c3v public playtesting today. Of course, there could still be plenty of other rules-related wrinkles that the power would introduce, but I didn't think that turn interruption would be one of them with this wording.

capsocrates
May 14th, 2020, 05:04 PM
I could be wrong, but wouldn't the phrase "Before the next order marker is revealed by any player" prevent them from interrupting turn chains? I didn't think the timing would be any different than the timing for Axentia's Phoenix Rising (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57255) power that showed up in c3v public playtesting today. Of course, there could still be plenty of other rules-related wrinkles that the power would introduce, but I didn't think that turn interruption would be one of them with this wording.
I see what you mean. I read the power text lazily. This would introduce a different problem; the previously destroyed figure sits on the space for an indeterminate amount of time in an indeterminate state. We sidestep many issues by making the figure only exist for, essentially, one turn. If it is on the board for multiple turns then can it take wounds? Can it use passive powers? Do other figures take leaving engagement attacks from it? Who controls it? If this is the last turn of the round, can wounds from Wannok be assigned to this hero (the next order marker will be in a new round)? etc. etc.

Astroking112
May 14th, 2020, 06:16 PM
Is the feeling that they're already needing a little extra oomph, though?

Not really. They haven't reached Playtesting yet, so we only have a handful of preliminary tests.

1 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2372514#post2372514) 2 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2367462&highlight=soul#post2367462) 3 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2367425&highlight=soul#post2367425) 4 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2367338&highlight=soul#post2367338)

The sentiment above seems to be that they're difficult to make work, but that it's fitting for a 50 point unit. Many of the above games either had only one option for Last Will or two underwhelming options, so army compositions are definitely an important factor to keep in mind.

It is worth noting that they're very difficult to set up properly, though. The suggestion to let them move before Last Will can address that, though it offers a concerning amount of mobility for characters like Cyprien.


As for "remove from the game", the only thing I could think that's sort of similar is maybe dropping figures due to maxed out start zones? Unless that sets a clear precedent, though, I can't see us creating a whole new set of rules around it just for these guys when it can also be accomplished with the tools we already have.

It is worth noting that we're having a new rulebook. I'm okay with expanding the rules a little bit if it's helpful, though I understand reluctance to do so.

My preference is to leave off the limit on reviving heroes once for Last Will. The power already has a lot going on, so every little bit of clutter hurts, IMO.

Pumpkin_King
May 14th, 2020, 06:37 PM
Yeah, there's no reason to complicate things like that here, even if it's to serve theme - something I'm really sympathetic to.

Captain Stupendous
May 14th, 2020, 07:26 PM
The trouble with the "Whenever ... is destroyed..." wording is turn interruption gets pretty nasty. You'd have to have a clause about waiting until the current turn ends, which means interrupting possible turn chains (like bonding) and it just gets weird. Not what we want in a master set for sure.

Thanks for getting creative, though. I do like the idea.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't the phrase "Before the next order marker is revealed by any player" prevent them from interrupting turn chains? I didn't think the timing would be any different than the timing for Axentia's Phoenix Rising (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=57255) power that showed up in c3v public playtesting today. Of course, there could still be plenty of other rules-related wrinkles that the power would introduce, but I didn't think that turn interruption would be one of them with this wording.
I see what you mean. I read the power text lazily. This would introduce a different problem; the previously destroyed figure sits on the space for an indeterminate amount of time in an indeterminate state. We sidestep many issues by making the figure only exist for, essentially, one turn. If it is on the board for multiple turns then can it take wounds? Can it use passive powers? Do other figures take leaving engagement attacks from it? Who controls it? If this is the last turn of the round, can wounds from Wannok be assigned to this hero (the next order marker will be in a new round)? etc. etc.

Although I'd assume the answer to all those questions would be yes, I can definitely see how that wouldn't necessarily be intuitive, especially to new players. For that reason alone I'd agree that its probably not the best direction for the power. Thanks for considering and thinking it through with me though!

Scytale
May 14th, 2020, 07:48 PM
PTI'ing a simpler idea.

LAST WILL
When an Honor Soul-Guide you control is destroyed by a normal or special attack, you may immediately replace the figure with one of your previously-destroyed Unique Heroes. Remove all but one wound from that Unique Hero's Army Card.

Astroking112
May 15th, 2020, 02:40 PM
PTI'ing a simpler idea.

LAST WILL
When an Honor Soul-Guide you control is destroyed by a normal or special attack, you may immediately replace the figure with one of your previously-destroyed Unique Heroes. Remove all but one wound from that Unique Hero's Army Card.

Hmm. It's much simpler and more accessible to new players for sure, but I'm concerned about how this might skyrocket their price. We're essentially giving two extra lives to any Unique Heroes unless the opponent has a Special Power to circumvent Last Will. Even if we limit it to small or medium, heroes like Cyprien would kind of necessitate that these guys be much more expensive than they are, and they're our only unit below 90 points currently.

I'd be more comfortable with this idea if we could word it to where the revived hero is left with 1 life instead of 1 wound, albeit then the lack of OM security would seriously dampen their usability. It's a very interesting idea, though, and I'm curious how the rest of the pod feels about something along these lines.

Scytale
May 15th, 2020, 02:44 PM
PTI'ing a simpler idea.

LAST WILL
When an Honor Soul-Guide you control is destroyed by a normal or special attack, you may immediately replace the figure with one of your previously-destroyed Unique Heroes. Remove all but one wound from that Unique Hero's Army Card.

Hmm. It's much simpler and more accessible to new players for sure, but I'm concerned about how this might skyrocket their price. We're essentially giving two extra lives to any Unique Heroes unless the opponent has a Special Power to circumvent Last Will. Even if we limit it to small or medium, heroes like Cyprien would kind of necessitate that these guys be much more expensive than they are, and they're our only unit below 90 points currently.

I'd be more comfortable with this idea if we could word it to where the revived hero is left with 1 life instead of 1 wound, albeit then the lack of OM security would seriously dampen their usability. It's a very interesting idea, though, and I'm curious how the rest of the pod feels about something along these lines.
Oops, I meant to remove wounds until it was just 1 Life. Not the easiest thing to word, but possible.

Astroking112
May 15th, 2020, 02:47 PM
Oops, I meant to remove wounds until it was just 1 Life. Not the easiest thing to word, but possible.

Perfect! In that case, I'm definitely open to this angle.

flameslayer93
May 15th, 2020, 02:52 PM
Here’s a crack at it.

Last Will
When an Honored Soul Guide would be destroyed by a normal or special attack, you may immediately replace it with a previously destroyed Unique Hero and remove enough wounds for the hero to have 1 life remaining.

Fwiw, I dig the direction.

Pumpkin_King
May 15th, 2020, 03:41 PM
It's a hell of a lot cleaner and I do like it, but I'm....hesitant, because that just means if your enemy destroys an HSG on turn 1 they just have to kill the hero on turn 2. You can't fight back with the hero because you probably didn't put OMs on a destroyed card because you couldn't be sure they'd kill the SG - and in fact, would go out of their way to not kill the SG if they saw a marker on the dead Syvarris (for example). It really limits the hero choice to like, samurai or X17.

Scytale
May 15th, 2020, 03:52 PM
It's a hell of a lot cleaner and I do like it, but I'm....hesitant, because that just means if your enemy destroys an HSG on turn 1 they just have to kill the hero on turn 2. You can't fight back with the hero because you probably didn't put OMs on a destroyed card because you couldn't be sure they'd kill the SG - and in fact, would go out of their way to not kill the SG if they saw a marker on the dead Syvarris (for example). It really limits the hero choice to like, samurai or X17.
That concerns me a bit too. Maybe a twist:
LAST WILL
After an Honored Soul Guide is destroyed, you may place it on an Army Card of a previously destroyed Unique Hero. At the start of any round, before placing order markers, you may remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card and remove enough wounds for the Hero to have 1 Life remaining. Then place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control.

flameslayer93
May 15th, 2020, 04:05 PM
Thinking on it a bit, I think it would be neat if Last Will only proc’d on normal attacks since we have units like Ana Karithon who have SA’s that are meant to destroy the undead. Plus it would give them some extra counterdraft-ness.

Edit: A thing that kills undead would also probably be welcome as a counterdraft unit in the set. Hmm.

Pumpkin_King
May 15th, 2020, 04:07 PM
I'd be up to try that version Scy, that sounds good. If it helps rules headaches I'm for it.

Scytale
May 15th, 2020, 04:12 PM
I'd be up to try that version Scy, that sounds good. If it helps rules headaches I'm for it.
That version is pretty safe, except for some oddities such as with Spirits, though that stuff already has to be handled by the Revive glyph.

capsocrates
May 15th, 2020, 04:29 PM
It loses the cool factor of re-using one of your opponent's destroyed figures. But maybe that is for the best?

What was the motivation for a power change here? I don't see it clearly in the last couple dozen posts.

flameslayer93
May 15th, 2020, 04:34 PM
It loses the cool factor of re-using one of your opponent's destroyed figures. But maybe that is for the best?

What was the motivation for a power change here? I don't see it clearly in the last couple dozen posts.

Complexity, I believe.

Astroking112
May 15th, 2020, 08:04 PM
It loses the cool factor of re-using one of your opponent's destroyed figures. But maybe that is for the best?

What was the motivation for a power change here? I don't see it clearly in the last couple dozen posts.

I don't believe that we were planning on letting you reuse opponent's destroyed figures in the current iteration. Thematically and mechanically, I prefer limiting it to units that you control, anyway.

Mostly complexity. The single-turn revival is messy and leads to lots of unclear interactions that we don't really want new players to deal with.

capsocrates
May 15th, 2020, 08:08 PM
It loses the cool factor of re-using one of your opponent's destroyed figures. But maybe that is for the best?

What was the motivation for a power change here? I don't see it clearly in the last couple dozen posts.

I don't believe that we were planning on letting you reuse opponent's destroyed figures in the current iteration. Thematically and mechanically, I prefer limiting it to units that you control, anyway.

Mostly complexity. The single-turn revival is messy and leads to lots of unclear interactions that we don't really want new players to deal with.
Sure enough. I like Scytale's proposal then. It does seem simpler. Could be too good on figures like Heracles though.

Astroking112
May 15th, 2020, 08:17 PM
I'm also a little concerned about figures with healing capabilities like Cyprien, who can theoretically heal back up to full health if things go south. This could be emulated with other characters as well with Kelda and a bit of luck.

Auras like Raelin or Taelord also don't need to worry about receiving OMs again if they're placed in the middle of the field, but they at least typically have lower defense values.

Ironically, the Deathwalkers essentially get two full extra lives from this idea, making them an excellent combo. I wouldn't be too concerned if the Zettian Infantry wasn't a thing, but we'd want to test that combo and make sure that it isn't too strong. If we bring back the small/medium restriction, then it's at least limited to only DW7k.

I'm game to move forward with Scytale's proposal. I think that it'll need a lot of testing, but the idea feels much more fitting for this project.

Pumpkin_King
May 15th, 2020, 08:21 PM
Oof, I'm much more concerned now with those points, Astro.

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2020, 07:32 AM
Sure enough. I like Scytale's proposal then. It does seem simpler. Could be too good on figures like Heracles though.I'm also a little concerned about figures with healing capabilities like Cyprien, who can theoretically heal back up to full health if things go south. This could be emulated with other characters as well with Kelda and a bit of luck.

Auras like Raelin or Taelord also don't need to worry about receiving OMs again if they're placed in the middle of the field, but they at least typically have lower defense values.

Ironically, the Deathwalkers essentially get two full extra lives from this idea, making them an excellent combo. I wouldn't be too concerned if the Zettian Infantry wasn't a thing, but we'd want to test that combo and make sure that it isn't too strong. If we bring back the small/medium restriction, then it's at least limited to only DW7k.

I'm game to move forward with Scytale's proposal. I think that it'll need a lot of testing, but the idea feels much more fitting for this project. I certainly view it as a concern, but that is ultimately what playtesting is for. If we do feel it is too much, we could always destroy the figure at the end of the round in addition to only having one wound, but I think we should test these guys out first with Scytale's suggested wording (maybe with the normal attack restriction, but I get if I'm the only one who is leaning that way).


Regarding DW7k; maybe its for the best that he gets a way to :explode: again.


That puts us at:

JANDAR
HONORED SOUL-GUIDES
Species Undead
Unique Squad
Class Psychopomps
Personality Stoic
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 1 (2 figures)
MOVE 5 / BASIC 6
RANGE 1 / BASIC 1
ATTACK 2 / BASIC 3
DEFENSE 4 / BASIC 4

?? POINTS

LAST WILL
After an Honored Soul Guide is destroyed, you may place it on an Army Card of a previously destroyed Unique Hero. At the start of any round, before placing order markers, you may remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card and remove enough wounds for the Hero to have 1 Life remaining. Then place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. An Honored Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If an Honored Soul-Guide is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.I'd think 50 will be a hair too low, so eyeballing it, I'm gonna say 60 points to start. They are still gonna be endgame things, and opponents are probably going to deliberately wait to kill these guys. That's gonna help keep their price down, especially because 2 attacks of 2 isn't going to be all that effective.

What does everyone think?
@NecroBlade (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=1508)
@Pumpkin_King (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=810)
@Astroking112 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=16492)
@All Your Pie (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=10063)
@capsocrates (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=11259)

capsocrates
May 16th, 2020, 11:38 AM
I don't see why an opponent would want to attack an honored soul guide unless they hadn't destroyed any heroes yet. Are they now reserved for cleanup? Where they are a dicey proposition? This is everything you just said but is that the gameplay you want? I liked that before the player could choose when to trigger the power. Now their opponent chooses it

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 12:58 PM
Yeah, that’s also true caps. I’m liking this version of the power less now. Could we keep the “rezzed with one life” angle but the player chooses when to destroy a guide?

Astroking112
May 16th, 2020, 02:10 PM
Oof, I'm much more concerned now with those points, Astro.

For what it's worth, I'm willing to playtest these changes. I just wanted to make sure that we're all aware of the potential for many problematic interactions--this version would require a lot of playtesting before I'd be comfortable with sticking to it.

Kelda is hopefully bad enough that using her to bring heroes back up to full health won't be feasible, but it'd need a lot of tests to make sure (especially since the revived hero can be placed directly adjacent to her in the starting zone). I'm mostly uncomfortable with how it can theoretically work for any character.

I certainly view it as a concern, but that is ultimately what playtesting is for. If we do feel it is too much, we could always destroy the figure at the end of the round in addition to only having one wound, but I think we should test these guys out first with Scytale's suggested wording (maybe with the normal attack restriction, but I get if I'm the only one who is leaning that way).

This was actually what I was coming back to suggest. Something along these lines effectively removes any potential for heroes extending their second life.

It complicates the power more for sure, but I'm thinking that it's probably worth the complexity to avoid any healing shenanigans.

JANDAR
HONORED SOUL-GUIDES
Species Undead
Unique Squad
Class Psychopomps
Personality Stoic
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 1 (2 figures)
MOVE 5 / BASIC 6
RANGE 1 / BASIC 1
ATTACK 2 / BASIC 3
DEFENSE 4 / BASIC 4

?? POINTS

LAST WILL
After an Honored Soul Guide is destroyed, you may place it on an Army Card of a previously destroyed Unique Hero. At the start of any round, before placing order markers, you may remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card and remove enough wounds for the Hero to have 1 Life remaining. Then place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. An Honored Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If an Honored Soul-Guide is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.I'd think 50 will be a hair too low, so eyeballing it, I'm gonna say 60 points to start. They are still gonna be endgame things, and opponents are probably going to deliberately wait to kill these guys. That's gonna help keep their price down, especially because 2 attacks of 2 isn't going to be all that effective.

I'm not comfortable with this draft below 75 points. There are simply too many unfun interactions that I can see for it to be a cheap addition to an army. It's possible that these could prove to be non-issues in testing and that the price could drop, but I'd rather start high if we're using this draft.

I don't see why an opponent would want to attack an honored soul guide unless they hadn't destroyed any heroes yet. Are they now reserved for cleanup? Where they are a dicey proposition? This is everything you just said but is that the gameplay you want? I liked that before the player could choose when to trigger the power. Now their opponent chooses it

I agree that it's more interesting if the player who controls them chooses when to activate Last Will (which they could theoretically still do, but that encourages attacking your own units, which feels like the wrong theme here). Letting them revive on any normal or special attack feels like it leaves less room for counterplay by killing the ghosts early, too.

Combining all of what I said above, this is what I'd personally prefer (plus some stat changes to make them stand out more and get us some more variation in the set):
JHonored Soul-Guides
Species Undead
Unique Squad
Class Psychopomps
Personality Stoic
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 1 (2 figures)
MOVE 5 / BASIC 7
RANGE 1 / BASIC 1
ATTACK 1 / BASIC 3
DEFENSE 5 / BASIC 7

50 POINTS

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may place one of them on the Army Card of a previously destroyed Unique Hero. At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may remove enough wounds for that Hero to have 1 Life remaining and place it adjacent to any figure that you control. At the end of the round, remove the Honored Soul-Guide from that Army Card and destroy the Unique Hero.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. An Honored Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If an Honored Soul-Guide is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

I'm a little concerned about the feasibility of forcing the player to waste an OM to set up a future revival, though. It feels like it'll likely lead to some frustration and them feeling underwhelming outside of their best scenarios.

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 02:41 PM
Can we allow them to destroy and rez at the beginning of the round before OMs are placed, or is that too much happening in one round?

Also, think about setting up OMs that round. How many are you going to put on the newly-rezzed hero? if you lose initiative, it’s very likely that all those OMs go in the toilet.

Is this really any less complex than the single-turn revival we were discussing earlier?

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2020, 03:09 PM
Its only as complex as we make it. Simplify. Even if some mechanics are frustrating, its better if they are simple.

capsocrates
May 16th, 2020, 03:42 PM
I think we need to break Last Will up in to two powers. One power defines how they make their way to an army card. The other power defines how you take them off that army card to use the other figure. Can we do that and go from there?

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 05:19 PM
I don't see the need to break it up unless having a spirit on a card does something before you take it off.

I really don't think the previous power as we had it was too complex.

capsocrates
May 16th, 2020, 05:24 PM
Can you humor me and throw it together?

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 05:38 PM
I'm trying to work one up, but any version of the power that has you putting the figure on their card and then letting them rez still runs into the troubles of getting nuked immediately because they have one life left.

SPIRITUAL GUIDE
When an HSG is destroyed, you may place that figure on the Army Card of any Unique Hero you control.

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control with an Honored Soul Guide figure on its Army Card. At the start of any round, before placing order markers, you may remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card and remove enough wounds for the Hero to have 1 Life remaining. Then place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control.

This has taken one line from Last Will and shuffled it to a new power.

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2020, 06:22 PM
Why toss the Soulguide on the Army Card, exactly? So what if you get to pick what hero comes back to life with a single click?

capsocrates
May 16th, 2020, 06:55 PM
Yes, but now we can put "after revealing an order marker on this card" into Spirits Guide. The player with the card gets to choose when both things happen, and now we don't have the clause repeated twice.

I guess we could also do it as an OR with a bullet list

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 06:58 PM
Wait, I'm not following something. Why do we need an "or" or a bullet list?

Scytale
May 16th, 2020, 06:59 PM
Why toss the Soulguide on the Army Card, exactly? So what if you get to pick what hero comes back to life with a single click?
To know if you've used that Soulguide yet or not.

capsocrates
May 16th, 2020, 09:44 PM
I'm on a computer so I can spell it out better now.


SPIRITUAL GUIDE
After revealing an order marker on this Army Card, you may place an Honored Soul Guide figure on the Army Card of any Unique Hero you control.

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control with an Honored Soul Guide figure on its Army Card. Remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card, place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control, take a turn with it, and then destroy it.


vs.


something like this:

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card you may


place an Honored Soul Guide figure on the Army Card of any Unique Hero you control.
or instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control with an Honored Soul Guide figure on its Army Card. Remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card, place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control, take a turn with it, and then destroy it.

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2020, 09:46 PM
Okay, now I see. Thank you for spelling it out. I think I like that, but I don't know which version.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2020, 05:49 PM
SPIRITUAL GUIDE
After revealing an order marker on this Army Card, you may place an Honored Soul Guide figure on the Army Card of any Unique Hero you control.

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control with an Honored Soul Guide figure on its Army Card. Remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card, place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control, take a turn with it, and then destroy it.


vs.


something like this:

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card you may


place an Honored Soul Guide figure on the Army Card of any Unique Hero you control.
or instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control with an Honored Soul Guide figure on its Army Card. Remove that Honored Soul Guide from that Army Card, place that Hero adjacent to any figure you control, take a turn with it, and then destroy it.


Bullet points haven't ever been used like that officially, have they? I think it's just for different tiers of d20 results (like Unleashed Fury). But this type of use is a C3G thing (see: almost every recent card :p). This version has a couple issues, though. The main one being something we've tried to avoid as much as we can: sitting in the start zone. Since the Hero can be placed adjacent to other figures, these guys never have a reason to move anywhere.



LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may place one of them on the Army Card of a previously destroyed Unique Hero. At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may remove enough wounds for that Hero to have 1 Life remaining and place it adjacent to any figure that you control. At the end of the round, remove the Honored Soul-Guide from that Army Card and destroy the Unique Hero.

Likewise, this version has at least one issue. If Braxas melts a figure, it doesn't get any wound markers. So it would come back at full health, thus making it a lot more difficult for an opponent to remove before the end of the round. However, that's something that wording can fix, at least.

Here's another shot:

LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may destroy an Honored Soul-Guide you control and place it on the Army Card of one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes that does not have an Honored Soul-Guide on its card. Place or remove wounds for that Hero's Army Card so it has 1 Life remaining and place that Hero on the space the destroyed Honored Soul-Guide occupied. At the end of the round, destroy that Unique Hero.


By maintaining placement where a Soul-Guide was, spending a turn or two along the way to position them sets you up better for your 1-Life Hero. By allowing it to happen at the start of a round, you don't have to worry as much about when or where something gets destroyed. You also get the full round with the figure if you're lucky enough for it not to take a wound. By leaving the Soul-Guide on the card, you have to diversify your army and not just give the same Hero three lives (its own plus two Soul-Guides). The best of both worlds, I think. Still fun with something you really only want one more turn out of anyway, like DW7K. Potential with Raelin, perhaps, as your opponent has to either deal with her or wait a round for the aura to go away again.

Pumpkin_King
May 17th, 2020, 07:12 PM
That's probably the best of the newer versions I've seen. I'm still not convinced that we need a full round rez, but I do like that and I'm willing to test it.

capsocrates
May 17th, 2020, 10:41 PM
LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may destroy an Honored Soul-Guide you control and place it on the Army Card of one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes that does not have an Honored Soul-Guide on its card. Place or remove wounds for that Hero's Army Card so it has 1 Life remaining and place that Hero on the space the destroyed Honored Soul-Guide occupied. At the end of the round, destroy that Unique Hero.
There's things I don't like as much about that power implementation, NecroBlade, but I think the power you proposed in post 242 there might be our best "compromise" power so far.

Any objections to using this one @flameslayer All Your Pie Astroking112 ?

All Your Pie
May 18th, 2020, 12:16 AM
Iíve been following things here, just not quite sure where I stand. I think the more weíre necessitated to fiddle with and add conditions to these guys, the less I like their core idea. But Iím willing to test the version caps highlighted to see if the fun factor os there. As flameslayer took note of in his recent test, weíll have to be concerned about figures like Bramcephys and Krug who get stronger when wounded, as well as high-defense low-like figures like Deathwalkers and Q9.

capsocrates
May 18th, 2020, 12:23 AM
Thankfully, Bramcephys, Krug, the Majors, and the Death walkers are all large or huge, and so not a target for this power.

Pumpkin_King
May 18th, 2020, 12:30 AM
Could we also put a point cost restriction, or does that feel too customy?

capsocrates
May 18th, 2020, 01:09 AM
Too customy.

All Your Pie
May 18th, 2020, 01:34 AM
Thankfully, Bramcephys, Krug, the Majors, and the Death walkers are all large or huge, and so not a target for this power.

Ah gotcha, thanks for catching that. It'll still matter for some units, but the only one that's at the top of my head is Evar who might be a fun combination rather than a crazy powerful one. I'm much happier with it knowing that.

Astroking112
May 18th, 2020, 02:58 AM
LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may destroy an Honored Soul-Guide you control and place it on the Army Card of one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes that does not have an Honored Soul-Guide on its card. Place or remove wounds for that Hero's Army Card so it has 1 Life remaining and place that Hero on the space the destroyed Honored Soul-Guide occupied. At the end of the round, destroy that Unique Hero.
There's things I don't like as much about that power implementation, NecroBlade, but I think the power you proposed in post 242 there might be our best "compromise" power so far.

Any objections to using this one @flameslayer All Your Pie Astroking112 ?

The more that I look at this, the more that I feel like it's still bogged down. Removing "...does not have an Honored Soul-Guide on its card" at least removes one extra thing for players to remember, but it doesn't exactly make the power simple. It's straying from the simplicity that made Scytale's suggestion appealing, and it's increasingly looking as complex as what we had before.

Here's a quick pass at simplifying it a bit:
LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may choose one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes. Place or remove wounds from that Hero's Army Card so that it has 1 Life remaining and replace an Honored Soul-Guide that you control with the chosen hero. At the end of the round, destroy that Unique Hero.

This reads significantly better to me and is approaching some of the earlier simplicity, even if it comes at the cost of letting players revive the same hero twice. The only other thing that it really does is remove the placement of Soul-Guides on Army Cards entirely, which is an extra detail for carrying out the implementation of the power that I think we could ultimately live without.

Thankfully, Bramcephys, Krug, the Majors, and the Death walkers are all large or huge, and so not a target for this power.

Hasbro's Incredible Hulk is a Medium 6 figure who gets revived with a fully-loaded Rage Smash. I'm not concerned with compatibility with the Marvel release (neither was Hasbro, officially), but it does illustrate that we could theoretically see such a figure like that that could be revived down the line. Just some food for thought.