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NecroBlade
May 12th, 2019, 07:47 PM
The Book of Tetsuo Tyrell

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019386330939398/image0.jpg?width=508&height=676

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VYDAR :vydar:
NAME Tetsuo Tyrell
Species Human
Unique Hero
Class Neuromancer
Personality Tricky
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 6
MOVE 5 / BASIC 5
RANGE 5 / BASIC 5
ATTACK 3 / BASIC 4
DEFENSE 2 / BASIC 5

110 POINTS

OVERCLOCK
Before attacking with Tetsuo Tyrell, you may place a wound marker on this Army Card to add 2 to his Attack value.

MIND JACK 19
When revealing an Order Marker on Tetsuo Tyrell, after taking his turn, you may choose any opponent's Unique Hero figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Tetsuo. Roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each wound marker on this card. If you roll a 19 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen Hero and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to its previous owner. All Order Markers that were on the figure's Army Card will stay on the Army Card.

The figure used for this unit is Jace, Investigator from Arena of the Planeswalkers Shadows Over Innistrad.


Character Bio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9yn1DpZkHQ





Editing Checklist (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2332678#post2332678)




-Rulings and Clarifications-
Q: If Tetsuo uses Overclock and the added wound is enough to destroy him, does he still get to attack?
A: No. The wound is added before the attack. If that's enough to destroy Tetsuo, he is immediately removed from the board.

Q: If Tetsuo uses Overclock, does he have to attack?
A: No.

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA


https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019386330939398/image0.jpg?width=508&height=676


Playtesting:
Test 1 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2335150&postcount=218)
Test 2 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2335152&postcount=219)
Test 3 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2337578&postcount=225)
Test 4 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2337633&postcount=226)
Test 5 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2351669&postcount=229)
Test 6 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2365183&postcount=251)
Test 7 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2372511&postcount=252)
Test 8 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2373363&postcount=254)
Test 9 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2410841&postcount=371)

Pumpkin_King
May 12th, 2019, 09:32 PM
The theme for this guy that someone mentioned in the discord was cyberpunk, and I love it. Here's a quick 2-minute draft.

Neuromancer Jydel

Human/Posthuman
U.Hero
Neuromancer
Tricky

3/5/5/3/4

Neural Hack
Before attacking, choose an enemy figure. On a roll of X, place a marker on that figure's card. That figure can't use any powers on their army card. Remove the marker at the end of that figure's next turn.

Digitize
Once per game, instead of being destroyed, place Jydell on the Army Card of another figure you control. Replace him at the start of your next round with one wound on his Army Card.


Disengage/Phantom Walk?

Astroking112
May 13th, 2019, 12:33 AM
I'm a big fan of the cyberpunk theme as well. It feels like a good fit with the miniature, and we could use the extra sci-fi.

Another idea brought up in the Discord was making him a Mariedian from before the rise of the SoulBorgs, perhaps one of the scientists instrumental in combining the first soul with a machine. This doesn't mesh well with a cyberpunk theme, though, because it's established that Alpha Prime was a utopia before the SoulBorgs rose.

Neural Hack
Before attacking, choose an enemy figure. On a roll of X, place a marker on that figure's card. That figure can't use any powers on their army card. Remove the marker at the end of that figure's next turn.


Depending on the range of the ability (or even if it required him attacking that figure), I like this. I'm not overly fond of using a marker, but it's necessary to only negate one turn here. Another option for a negation centered ability could be the Negation Drive from one of my customs:
https://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=21427&original=1

For Digitize, I'm not opposed to some kind of resurrection power, but I'd prefer to explore other avenues. We already have the pheonixes (and potentially shadow zombies) from other pods that could be using reviving, and we don't want to overload the set with revival-based powers when they were so rare in official HeroScape.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 12:44 AM
I was thinking a range of 4, but him attacking that figure also works out very well.

You're right that a resurrection probably doesn't work - perhaps make it like Stealth Armor but with a caveat that you have to move him around.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2019, 01:17 AM
Posthuman is 100% ok with me, I want to see what happens to humanity in the far future so I suspect there is a market for it. :)

Astroking112
May 13th, 2019, 01:59 PM
A Stealth Armor that moves around sounds similar to Rygarn's Temporal Jump (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=50591). We could retheme that if we wanted to better fit the cyberpunk theme, perhaps with an added line of sight restriction or other tweaks.

He looks like a human to me, so I'd prefer for him to just be that if he isn't an alien.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2019, 02:02 PM
A Stealth Armor that moves around sounds similar to Rygarn's Temporal Jump (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=50591). We could retheme that if we wanted to better fit the cyberpunk theme, perhaps with an added line of sight restriction or other tweaks.

He looks like a human to me, so I'd prefer for him to just be that if he isn't an alien.

He has blue arms, I think that is enough excuse to call him posthuman.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 02:04 PM
Posthuman implies that he was human at one point, but had cybernetic augmentation’s or something like that.

Astroking112
May 13th, 2019, 02:06 PM
He has blue arms, I think that is enough excuse to call him posthuman.

He does? It always looked to me like the blue was either his sleeves or a glove on his clenched hand. Where the fire is coming from, it looks like he has normal skin on his hand.

If that's the case, then I don't particularly mind Posthuman, but I don't see much of a reason for it unless we want to remove Ebon Armor synergy or make it explicitly clear that he's from the future, which his abilities should be doing anyway.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 02:09 PM
Another idea: Digitize allows him to “digitize” friendly figures and “store“ them on his card, to move them around like a more advanced Carry.

flameslayer93
May 13th, 2019, 02:13 PM
That’s a cool idea PK! I’d encourage a small chance of the power failing, sending the figure permanently into the matrix.

Astroking112
May 13th, 2019, 02:14 PM
Posthuman implies that he was human at one point, but had cybernetic augmentation’s or something like that.

If it's only cybernetic augmentations, I think that it would be more fitting to go with a Cyborg class for a Human species. Posthuman implies something more than that to me.

Another idea: Digitize allows him to “digitize” friendly figures and “store“ them on his card, to move them around like a more advanced Carry.

That could be an interesting route, but he would need to be a little more durable (or just faster) to make it worthwhile, I think. Protecting figures by digitizing them is an interesting idea, but if he's more likely to die than they are, I don't think that it'll be used.

Pumpkin_King
May 13th, 2019, 02:42 PM
The utility of Digitize would be less protection and more being able to carry around two figures for one order marker. In addition to maybe “projecting“ the digitized figure within a short distance when he releases them.

He could definitely stand to be a little sturdier than the draft I posted though.

All Your Pie
May 14th, 2019, 03:56 AM
I was never fully aware of the draft or direction for this figure and it’s inclusion in this pod, so I won’t be too actively involved here. Neural Hack looks like a decent centerpiece, it or something like it seems like a cool focus for the design. Digitize I’m less sure on, both as written and as suggested. Between the Phantoms and the Ruiner, we’ve already got a fair amount of potential figure movement in this pod, and IMO it’s far more justified for those figures than for this one.

Establishing how he uses his cyberpunk stuff might help with the direction. Neural hack feels like some sort of psychic neural interface, while Digitize reads like he’s the cyber ghost from that scooby doo movie. In general I’d say aim more for the former than the latter.

I, personally, would still be happy with this guy being Maredian. Say, an experimental soldier or agent with neural enhancements for the resistance. If not here, then I’d like to get at least one Maredian rep for this set, and if nothing else I prefer it to inventing a vague future earth setting. I’m not inclined to get too hung up on it, though.

flameslayer93
May 14th, 2019, 08:58 AM
I did suggest Gideon as a Maridien in the Pre-Brainstorming Thread, so some sort of future human is really an option for the set either way.

Pumpkin_King
May 14th, 2019, 10:39 AM
I prefer him to be from earth rather than a mariedian, but that’s not something I’ll get hung up on either.

In my mind he’s relying on a number of cyberpunk tropes here. Being able to “hack” living computers, digitize others to teleport them, etc. to answer your implied question, he does a little of both.

NecroBlade
May 14th, 2019, 11:03 AM
I'll try to have more thoughts here at some point, but admittedly I'm not well versed in cyberpunk (though I voted for this figure because I thought that would bring a unique theme to the set and Heroscape). I like the future-Earth/post-Microcorp era idea for him best (though I understand the Mariedian angle as well).

flameslayer93
May 14th, 2019, 11:06 AM
What NB said. :mrgreen:

I’ll add this: anything beats another human wizard from Toril.

Astroking112
May 14th, 2019, 12:57 PM
The utility of Digitize would be less protection and more being able to carry around two figures for one order marker. In addition to maybe “projecting“ the digitized figure within a short distance when he releases them.

He could definitely stand to be a little sturdier than the draft I posted though.

His move isn't particularly high, though, so I don't see it bringing the same benefit as Theracus. If this is compounded by a low survivability, I don't see it being worth the risk to add to the figure.

On a broader theme, a carry ability doesn't really feel like it matches the negation well. We could certainly split his focus like this, but those are two very different directions for units to normally take.

Neural Hack looks like a decent centerpiece, it or something like it seems like a cool focus for the design. Digitize I’m less sure on, both as written and as suggested. Between the Phantoms and the Ruiner, we’ve already got a fair amount of potential figure movement in this pod, and IMO it’s far more justified for those figures than for this one.

Establishing how he uses his cyberpunk stuff might help with the direction. Neural hack feels like some sort of psychic neural interface, while Digitize reads like he’s the cyber ghost from that scooby doo movie. In general I’d say aim more for the former than the latter.

I, personally, would still be happy with this guy being Maredian. Say, an experimental soldier or agent with neural enhancements for the resistance. If not here, then I’d like to get at least one Maredian rep for this set, and if nothing else I prefer it to inventing a vague future earth setting. I’m not inclined to get too hung up on it, though.

It's also worth keeping in mind the suggestions for Movement Bonding or switching places with Jace and the Illusions. It's actually looking like we might have a wealth of movement abilities in the set, which makes me hesitant for a new form of carrying as well.

Thank you for bringing back part of my childhood with the Cyber Chase reference. :lol:

I think that the Mariedian angle is a harder sell than cyberpunk Earth (or even Arctorus if we need to for whatever reason), since we know that the height of the planet, when technology would've been the best, was a utopia. It's certainly possible, though, and the only real difference mechanically is whether he can be tossed into an M-43 army or not.

Here's a rough sketch of an alternate idea to pair with Neural Hacking instead:
Neural Enhancement
Before taking a turn with CYBERPUNK DUDE, you may place a wound marker on this card. If you do, add 1 to his move and attack this turn.

Since we have the idea of him hacking into other people's brains to disable their abilities, it feels like a natural extension could be him reprogramming himself to boost his strength or speed. We could also play around with the marker being on his card giving him some kind of stat boost, but that comes at much less of a cost since it is likely to be there unless the player guesses very poorly.

Pumpkin_King
May 14th, 2019, 03:52 PM
Or what about something like...he has a built-in neural network that “learns” about his enemies or allies as he watches them.

All Your Pie
May 14th, 2019, 10:28 PM
Hmm, either of those could work, although the leaning algorithm angle could be difficult to implement cleanly. Taking another look at the figure, it's also undeniable that he's got some kinda blue cyber-energy radiating off his palm. I still think turning entire living entities into data is a bit of a stretch even for Cyberpunk, but it does afford us some more leeway than I initially suspected.

How about something like:

5L 5M 4R 3A 4D

Neural Stimulant
Before attacking with Jydel, you may place a wound marker on this card. If you do, add 3 to this card's attack value.

Brainjack 13
After taking a turn with Jydel, if he inflicted one or more wounds on a Unique Hero with his normal attack this turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, take temporary control of the figure he attacked and immediately take a turn with them. After the turn, control of the figure returns to the player that controlled it before the Brainjack.

This would be separate from the hacking/negation power with the marker, though. Alternatively, we could use that power along with some sort of cyber-barrier defensive power to make him more of an irritating/harassing figure.

flameslayer93
May 14th, 2019, 11:00 PM
Actually, what if we made his only power into some form of Brainjack? Maybe instead of attacking, he can choose a figure he’s adjacent to and take a turn with that figure/squad. We could implement a d20 roll of course. It pays a little homage to the first AotP Jace (and Blue decks in general) too, which I suspect people will like.

We’ll have to account for things like Lava Dunking, but it’s not the first time a unit had to worry about Lava Dunking.

Astroking112
May 14th, 2019, 11:27 PM
For the name of the unit, I'd personally like to reference Blade Runner (or Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, but less people are likely to get that one). It was instrumental in establishing the cyberpunk genre, and there are plenty of good names to draw from.

Tyrell is the name of the company that developed androids in the movies, but Rosen was the original name from the book. All Your Pie draft's name Jydel evokes the former a little to me, but I wouldn't mind poking a little closer to the source. There are also plenty of character names, but outside of Rick Deckard and a handful of others, I would need to pull out my book again to remember them.

Or what about something like...he has a built-in neural network that “learns” about his enemies or allies as he watches them.

I find it hard to imagine a straightforward implementation of him learning about enemies/allies other than a simple attack/defense boost against figures with the marker on them, which I'm not overly fond of. Did you have something else in mind?

How about something like:

5L 5M 4R 3A 4D

Neural Stimulant
Before attacking with Jydel, you may place a wound marker on this card. If you do, add 3 to this card's attack value.

Brainjack 13
After taking a turn with Jydel, if he inflicted one or more wounds on a Unique Hero with his normal attack this turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, take temporary control of the figure he attacked and immediately take a turn with them. After the turn, control of the figure returns to the player that controlled it before the Brainjack.

This would be separate from the hacking/negation power with the marker, though. Alternatively, we could use that power along with some sort of cyber-barrier defensive power to make him more of an irritating/harassing figure.

I wouldn't want to mix this with the negation angle, personally. Neural Stimulant (I'm a little afraid that this name might stray a little too close to drug imagery for something that the original designers would've released, but that's a minor aside and I like the power itself) and Brainjack are already a very effective combo, and I like how they tie together. The low base attack combined with the desire to inflict wounds to trigger the second power sounds fun when combined with the risk of wounding yourself to increase attack.

I'm not completely sold on a form of Mind Control over than negation, but either can work well for a hero-heavy set. I will say that negation is more unique/rare than Mind Control in classic 'Scape, which lends itself well to making Jydell stand out, but there's no need to be different for the sake of being different.

Actually, what if we made his only power into some form of Brainjack? Maybe instead of attacking, he can choose a figure he’s adjacent to and take a turn with that figure/squad. We could implement a d20 roll of course. It pays a little homage to the first AotP Jace (and Blue decks in general) too, which I suspect people will like.

We’ll have to account for things like Lava Dunking, but it’s not the first time a unit had to worry about Lava Dunking.

I quite like the idea of him hurting himself somehow through augmentation to boost his offense, whether it's directly tied to his second power (Brainjack or Negation, currently) or not. It feels very cyberpunk to me.

Pumpkin_King
May 14th, 2019, 11:29 PM
I like Negation and Brainjack as a combination. I love Brainjack and I don't know why I didn't think of it before.

Pumpkin_King
May 14th, 2019, 11:59 PM
Just to sort of sort out my thoughts, I'm going to list some of the ideas for abilities we've had so far and my thoughts.

Neural Hack: I still do like this, but I can understand it being a bit much from a complexity standpoint, especially when combined with another complex power like Brainjack

Brainjack: Love love love this. I don't feel it should require a wound - just copying over Enslave from the Mindflayers would be great in my book. It's thematic for a "neuromancer", it's a cool power, it makes sense for Vydar, and it works when you have a whole set of Uniques. Love this.

Digitize: Still like this but not as much as other things.


Neural Stimulant: I could like this in theory but not if it involves a self-wound. I could see another trigger for +1-2 attack. A d20 roll, a certain # order marker, requiring a certain amount of enemy figures in range, or maybe requiring a certain amount of wounds on him.

While I'd love Neural Hack and Brainjack, I don't know if those two powers work together on a card, especially for what we're aiming for, and because of that if I had to choose one I'd go with Brainjack.

All Your Pie
May 15th, 2019, 12:05 AM
To expand a little, my thoughts with Brainjack requiring a wound were to give the power a somewhat more violating, forceful feel. I also like that it kind of shifts the theme of all of this figure's attacks into a neural/digital space--thematically, every attack he makes is an attempt at brainjacking, whether the defender resists it or dies as a result of the side-effects. In my mind, this was complimented nicely by some sort of cyber or bio-hacking of the self to boost his attack.

I could see a version of Brainjack without the wound requirement, but if we want to call it Brainjack and not Enslave then I feel we need some way to differentiate it. I also understand the concern that being able to throw 6 dice at range might be a little much, even if it's only 4 range and requires taking a wound. I could see dropping defense to 3 to keep that kind of offensive power, or nerfing it to 2 dice. I don't love a boost of only 1, as that doesn't feel quite dramatic enough to warrant taking a wound.

Pumpkin_King
May 15th, 2019, 12:07 AM
Maybe a successful Brainjack puts a wound on the enemy figure?

All Your Pie
May 15th, 2019, 12:08 AM
Maybe a successful Brainjack puts a wound on the enemy figure?
Could work, but if you want to lower the required roll any, making the power stronger won't get you there.

Pumpkin_King
May 15th, 2019, 12:18 AM
That's true. I think making it opponents only and maybe Medium/Small only might restrict it enoguh?

flameslayer93
May 15th, 2019, 12:21 AM
Now that I’ve had more time to think, and compliment AYP on Brainjack (genius!), here’s more.

Hurting oneself for more power is fine by me, I dug it on the Azurite Warlord and I’d like to see it again. I’m not certain that +3 Attack on a Ranged figure is a good idea though. Things like Laglor and the Glyph of Ivor (plus height advantage) can quickly boost this seemingly squishy character into suddenly nuking Nilfheim. A few ways we can still make this work though:

1) Change the attack bonus to a range bonus, or even something like +2 R/+1 A. The flames shoot further, and more ferociously.
2) Only allow the boost vs adjacent targets. 6/7 attack on a melee hero is certainly fine. Jydel just happens to be good at tossing cyberflames too.
3) Cap his life to 3. He can throw super attacks, but he has to make a big sacrifice to do it. He’ll still need to be priced moderately high like Skahen is, but that’s one way to handle it.

NecroBlade
May 15th, 2019, 11:14 AM
I was going to suggest +2R/+1A for Neural Stimulant as well if we stick with that. I like the alternate idea of making it only work in melee, too. 4 Life might be OK, but 3 seems a bit of an over-correction.

Neural Hack is OK, but we'd have to be OK with using the set's markers on this design. Plus, Negation markers are already a thing twice over, and these markers are different. I like the power, but I'm not sold on it here.

Brainjack seems like the winner. Another candidate for only working in melee (thus not needing the wound restriction)? In fact, is there even a melee version of temporary control yet? If not, I'd like that direction.

I could see some form of the Digitize theme (what comes to mind for me is a Viking-Spirit-like power), but haven't seen the answer there yet. Looks like NS/BJ might be a good enough start to put in the OP and focus discussion.

flameslayer93
May 15th, 2019, 11:17 AM
3 Life was if we were going to allow +3 Attack at Range, letting Jace throw up to 7 dice (when height boosted) at range. Like I said, nuking Nilfy is a big deal imo.

Pumpkin_King
May 15th, 2019, 11:29 AM
I’m still very against NS triggering on a self-wound. It doesn’t make thematic sense to me. This guy strikes me as s reclusive, self-serving, self-preserving anti hero. Not someone reckless.

Astroking112
May 16th, 2019, 04:17 AM
I won't lie and say that I prefer temporary control over negation, but I'm content enough with Brainjack if it does maintain the forceful feeling. I do prefer it at range with the requirement of inflicting a wound as a result.

I really like the combo of Brainjack requiring a wound to have a chance to activate when paired with something like Neural Stimulant. I'd still suggest +2 Move/+1 Attack rather than +2 range, both because it's more versatile and because it requires him to still commit to the attack by getting in close.

Rather than feeling reckless, Neural Stimulant actually feels very calculating to me--the neuromancer is evaluating the chances of his hack succeeding, and if they aren't favorable, he's willing to boost his own stats at a cost. I actually think that it helps the cyberpunk theme, which I often distinguish from cleaner sci-fi by the fact that using this technology does have a cost. Hacking into his own brain for a boost takes a toll on himself, just like hacking into someone else's.

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2019, 11:40 AM
Very much disagree on a wound being the trigger for either of them. It’s a hill I’ll fight on but not die on. I think a wound on either one doesn’t fit the theme right (to me) and putting s wound requirement on Brainjack just feels mechanically wonky on top of it. I’d much prefer a somewhat-changed Enslave and Stimulant that triggers on something else: like I said earlier, a certain number of wounds on himself, etc.

What I COULD see now that I think about it is choosing to activate Stimulant and then rolling a d20/attack die somewhat like Stinger Drain, with a low but still high enough chance to wound yourself that it’s woeth considering.

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2019, 12:24 PM
A reuse of Stinger Drain would be quite thematic, but we may want to tweak the rewards to better fit a hero.

Maybe:

1-5: Wound, maybe lose attack
6-10: +0 Attack
11-15: +1 Attack
16-20: +2 Attack

We can even let 20s grant +3 attack, since a 20 is supposed to feel powerful.

Captain Stupendous
May 16th, 2019, 01:12 PM
I'm sorry if this isn't the place for a non-pod member to chime in; if so please feel free to ignore this and I'll happily go back to observing :)

After following the discussion here, I thought I'd throw out an alternate idea for Brainjack that carries over some of the "digitize" theme while also opening up some unique gameplay considerations. I realize that this power may be too complicated or unusual for the purpose of this set, but figured it couldn't hurt to share and maybe provide inspiration for Jace's powerset. It would also be kind of a fun homage to Finn from the original master set. I also want to give credit to Ixe for helping me polish this power when I first created it for use on an evil viking spirit hero I made.


Brainjack

Instead of attacking, you may choose any Unique Hero within four clear sight spaces of Jace and place Jace on that figure's Army Card. Brainjack adds 1 to the normal attack number on that card. After taking a turn with Jace, or after revealing an order marker on Jace's card, if Jace is on an Army Card, you may take temporary control of that Hero and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the Hero reverts to its previous owner and roll the 20-sided die. All order markers that were on that Hero's Army Card will stay on the Army Card. If you roll a 1-10 place Jace adjacent to the brainjacked hero. If you roll an 11 or higher, you may instead choose for Jace to remain on that Army Card. If the brainjacked Hero is destroyed while Jace is on that figure's Army Card, you may place Jace onto any space that figure last occupied.

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2019, 01:27 PM
You are more than welcome to post here! But please, go vote on the Public Vote Thread for the next units to start designing! :mrgreen: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55805

Now, onto the suggestion! I like that idea. Although it might be too complex for the set, it is excellent!

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2019, 01:28 PM
....interesting. I like that a lot actually. Hmm. My first instinct is that it’s too complicated for a master set, but I wonder if it can’t be slimmed down a little bit.

Astroking112
May 16th, 2019, 04:10 PM
Very much disagree on a wound being the trigger for either of them. It’s a hill I’ll fight on but not die on. I think a wound on either one doesn’t fit the theme right (to me) and putting s wound requirement on Brainjack just feels mechanically wonky on top of it. I’d much prefer a somewhat-changed Enslave and Stimulant that triggers on something else: like I said earlier, a certain number of wounds on himself, etc.

What I COULD see now that I think about it is choosing to activate Stimulant and then rolling a d20/attack die somewhat like Stinger Drain, with a low but still high enough chance to wound yourself that it’s woeth considering.

Having a boost trigger when he's close to death (or with a certain number of wounds on him) doesn't feel right to me, since that more evokes heroes making a last stand or berserkers overcome with rage. I could see an argument being made for him getting a boost when closer to full health, but I don't really like that idea too much.

I would see Stinger Drain as needlessly complicating the power here. It still teeters on the same theme, but just adds a D20 roll to make it not guaranteed, which I'm not a big fan of. I'd much rather see a new power in the vein of Overextend Attack that just guarantees a result for one wound.

Brainjack

Instead of attacking, you may choose any Unique Hero within four clear sight spaces of Jace and place Jace on that figure's Army Card. Brainjack adds 1 to the normal attack number on that card. After taking a turn with Jace, or after revealing an order marker on Jace's card, if Jace is on an Army Card, you may take temporary control of that Hero and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the Hero reverts to its previous owner and roll the 20-sided die. All order markers that were on that Hero's Army Card will stay on the Army Card. If you roll a 1-10 place Jace adjacent to the brainjacked hero. If you roll an 11 or higher, you may instead choose for Jace to remain on that Army Card. If the brainjacked Hero is destroyed while Jace is on that figure's Army Card, you may place Jace onto any space that figure last occupied.

This is certainly an interesting concept. If we wanted to go this direction, I would suggest ditching everything else and making it the only power for the design, since it is quite complicated. Even if it's trimmed down by removing the die roll or the like at the end, I still think that adding extra powers on top of this would be making the unit too complex.

Personally, this power doesn't quite hit the Brainjack theme for me. It's an interesting method of mind control, but like All Your Pie said earlier of digitization, it kind of feels a little too sci-fi to have someone turn themself into data particles and enter someone else's brain. I'd prefer for him to be kept on the board and just hack into other brains like previous Brainjack suggestions as a result.

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2019, 07:14 PM
Yeah, now that I think about it, that version of Brainjack Is a little bit much for a master set. I really like it though, and I would love to see it used elsewhere, even if it’s just in someone’s personal customs.

Actually, my preferred version of a stinger drain ability would be that he always has the option to take the boost, but if he does, he rolls to see if he gets damaged.

All Your Pie
May 16th, 2019, 07:51 PM
I could see a version of the boost with only a chance to damage him as workable. The chance for that and the power of the boost can always be fiddled with.

Is that a concession you would be able to make in addition to making Brainjack (or maybe we should call it mindjack, for more universal theme? Life Drain is not Blood Drain after all) give you a chance to roll off of a wound? In my mind, the tactical interest of a risky attack boost is very much tied up with that. I haven't found any other versions of Brainjack compelling--requiring adjacency feels odd for hacking and cyberstuff, having it inflict a free wound would bump the roll up even higher, and Captain Stupendous's suggestion is intriguing but perhaps a bit too complicated (it reads like a C3G power, which is not a bad thing, but won't fit smoothly into a master set that might be someone's introduction to the game).

So, are we interested in workshopping a version of Neural Stimulant with a chance to wound and Brainjack requiring a wound to activate, or are there some things we need to work out here before moving in that direction?

Captain Stupendous
May 16th, 2019, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the kind words everyone regarding my version of Brainjack. I knew it would be riding the line in terms of complexity, but thought if it was the only power on the card the overall complexity might not be that much greater than a unit like the Hive or Sonlen. That being said, I really like the other options being discussed, especially Neural Hack and some form of Mindjack. I think that some form of Neural Stimulant boost is promising too, but for me at least just isn't suggested by the sculpt or theme as strongly.

In case anyone is interested in the original custom my version of Brainjack came from, you can find the original post here (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=51780).

Pumpkin_King
May 16th, 2019, 09:13 PM
Is that a concession you would be able to make in addition to making Brainjack (or maybe we should call it mindjack, for more universal theme? Life Drain is not Blood Drain after all) give you a chance to roll off of a wound? In my mind, the tactical interest of a risky attack boost is very much tied up with that. I haven't found any other versions of Brainjack compelling--requiring adjacency feels odd for hacking and cyberstuff, having it inflict a free wound would bump the roll up even higher, and Captain Stupendous's suggestion is intriguing but perhaps a bit too complicated (it reads like a C3G power, which is not a bad thing, but won't fit smoothly into a master set that might be someone's introduction to the game).

So, are we interested in workshopping a version of Neural Stimulant with a chance to wound and Brainjack requiring a wound to activate, or are there some things we need to work out here before moving in that direction?
Yes, very willing to make that concession on Neural Stim. I'm not quite as sold on requiring a wound to activate Mindjack (I like that name better, works to invoke Mindshackle) but I'm also don't feel as strongly on that as I did with NS. Absolutely willing to workshop that direction.

flameslayer93
May 16th, 2019, 09:47 PM
The woundomancer gets my :up:.

All Your Pie
May 16th, 2019, 10:16 PM
Alright, here's my attempt to put a draft together with some options for where we can tweak things.

Jydel (don't know where we came up with this but it seems fitting and memorable)
Vydar

Life 5(4? lower life could make the risk/reward of neural stimulant more delicate)
Move 5
Range 4(could be raised depending on how Neural Stimulant shakes out)
Attack 3
Defense 4(3? worth noting that 5 life 4 defense is actually pretty sturdy, assuming we end up with a mid-range hero with decent attack potential)
Points: ??? (Not really worth discussing until we have a clearer idea of where our numbers end up)

Left box stats--could be whatever, with the note that I prefer Neuromancer in the class and not the name.

Neural Stimulant (could be re-named to avoid drug mention as noted by Astroking)
When attacking with Jydel, you may add 3(2? 1?) to his attack value (and 2? to his range value). If you do, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7? or lower, place a wound marker on this army card.
(Wild alternate to a D20 roll--If Jydel does not inflict a wound when using Neural Stimulant, place a wound marker on this card.)

(Alternatively, change the timing to "before moving" in order to incorporate a movement boost.)

Mindjack 13 (changed from Brainjack, either name could work)
After taking a turn with Jydel, if he inflicted one or more wounds on a Unique Hero with his normal attack this turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13? or higher, take temporary control of the figure he attacked and immediately take a turn with them. After the turn, control of the figure returns to the player that controlled it before the Mindjack.

(Here, the main aspect to tweak is the required roll. Such tweaks are also fairly dependent on where Neural Stimulant ends up, so I recommend ironing that out first.)

For my part, I don't entirely agree that an attack of 6 at range is completely untenable, but the more forgiving Neural Stimulant is, the more dangerous a possibility it is (and the more it risks making the choice involved tactically pointless--3 dice is such a huge extra amount to throw at a hero that you would almost always take the risk, possibly even when Jydel is almost dead). A boost of +2 attack brings the total to a more reasonable 5--still more than any normal ranged attack in classicscape, but restricted by possible self-damage and an unimpressive range of 4 (boostable by Laglor, but for significant investment). A clean +2 attack boost is probably what I favor more.

Movement and range boosts were both also proposed. These are both interesting in that they adjust Jydel's threat range, meaning your opponent might have to gamble on whether or not you're willing to risk self-damage. I think it's agreed that the kind of boosts these would give would be along the lines of +1 move/range, +1 attack or +2 move/range, +1 attack. My main concern here is that on many turns in the game, the attack boost will be the only one that matters, while on other turns, the move/range boost will be the only way to get value out of Jydel at all. I worry that this may not encourage interesting decision-making, particularly with the offensive boost being relatively slight.

The thing I like about this core interaction is that boosting your chance to deal damage also boosts your chance to mindjack. Do you safely throw three dice for the longshot, or do you risk damage to take a much better--but still not guaranteed--chance? In my mind, anything that distances us from that core choice weakens the design. I may be off track, though, so I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks now that we've established a clear direction.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2019, 11:40 AM
I agree that the interplay between boosting Attack to increase odds of triggering Mind Jack is good (I thought I liked the sound of Brainjack better, but Mind Jack [two words, even] ties it to Mind Shackle and Mind Exchange). Other things to consider include keeping the Attack boost of NS (maybe a renaming along the lines of "rewiring"?) low since MJ also requires a d20 roll, or alternatively removing the d20 from MJ and relying on a higher Attack boost to get the wound in the first place.

I kind of like 7 and 13 as they add up to 20, not that there's any scientific reason to do that. :lol: Not to mention playtesting will ultimately determine that anyway.

Another possibility might be giving him some kind of melee attack bonus and only triggering MJ on adjacent figures, but I'm not sure if the theme is there for a melee boost, though I think it might make more sense for MJ.

Astroking112
May 17th, 2019, 05:44 PM
I think that Brainjack sounds better than Mind Jack, but the latter does at least tie into Mind Exchange which it borrows heavily from. I could live with either as a name.

I could see Neural Stimulant being exclusive for melee, but Mind Jack would feel weird with a similar restriction in my opinion.

I still do not find the prospect of a D20 roll for Neural Stimulant to be appealing nor thematic. I've already talked about why a bit throughout the thread, but I think that it feels weaker mechanically, too. We already have a D20 roll for Mind Jack, so adding another D20 roll to boost the odds of getting to that D20 roll feels messy and overdone to me. There's an appealing simplicity to just deciding whether you want to take a wound to boost your chances or not, and I think that adding more chance to that does not make that feeling--which I saw to be the core of the design--stronger or more engaging.

I think it's agreed that the kind of boosts these would give would be along the lines of +1 move/range, +1 attack or +2 move/range, +1 attack. My main concern here is that on many turns in the game, the attack boost will be the only one that matters, while on other turns, the move/range boost will be the only way to get value out of Jydel at all. I worry that this may not encourage interesting decision-making, particularly with the offensive boost being relatively slight.

This is a good point; in many instances, a move/range boost is just necessary to get any value out of him at all. I'd also prefer a straightforward attack boost in that case (perhaps +2, with a base attack of 3 as you suggested), although that is assuming that it is guaranteed to take the wound rather than having a chance of getting no penalty.

For alternative names for Neural Stimulant, here are a few quick suggestions:
Neural Enhancement
Neural Hack
Neural Cipher
Mental Break
Reprogram

Of course, any mix of these could work. Neural Stimulant is a relatively harmless name on its own, but when coupled with the mechanics I think that it might inspire too much drug imagery for something that Hasbro was originally publishing.

I'm coming around to the name Jydel. Unless anyone else has any other suggestions, I'd be fine with using that name going forward.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2019, 09:24 PM
I do like straight self-wounding rather than a d20 chance there better, actually.

Also I forgot about the name. Perhaps a nod to Isaac Asaimov somehow?

Astroking112
May 17th, 2019, 09:42 PM
I was originally thinking more of a nod to Blade Runner or Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, but those are pretty on the nose. There's still plenty of inspiration there if we want to go down that route, of course.

I kind of like the idea of giving him both a first and a last name. It sounds a little more fitting to me, and we've seen similar choices with Sgt. Drake Alexander before.

All Your Pie
May 17th, 2019, 09:49 PM
I'll also throw in that I prefer the wound to be a flat cost instead of a d20 roll, simply for the sake of not having to roll the d20 for two different things most turns (which isn't strictly a design problem as it happens in official scape every now and then, I just find it slightly less elegant). I'm not particularly strident on that issue though.

For name, I'll probably be happy with whatever we want to go with, though I would prefer a name that simply evokes the feel of cyberpunk rather than being a direct reference to something. Not everything has to be a wink to those in the know.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2019, 10:33 PM
For name, I'll probably be happy with whatever we want to go with, though I would prefer a name that simply evokes the feel of cyberpunk rather than being a direct reference to something. Not everything has to be a wink to those in the know.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/efa0962878857ab3332344f84c41a345/tenor.gif?itemid=3787079

Pumpkin_King
May 17th, 2019, 10:41 PM
Would an attack die for a wound work better for anyone?

All Your Pie
May 17th, 2019, 10:44 PM
Would an attack die for a wound work better for anyone?

So, Thunder Step it? Not a bad idea. Functionally, it's not really different from a d20 roll, but it is a bit cleaner.

Astroking112
May 17th, 2019, 10:45 PM
I don't think that it's fundamentally different. It does feel cleaner, but I still think that the power is stronger without it.

Pumpkin_King
May 17th, 2019, 10:48 PM
Call it Overload, Overclock Implants, Emergency Drive, Inhibitors Disabled.

NecroBlade
May 17th, 2019, 10:52 PM
or alternative names for Neural Stimulant, here are a few quick suggestions:
Neural Enhancement
Neural Hack
Reprogram

I could get behind something like one of these.

I don't think that it's fundamentally different. It does feel cleaner, but I still think that the power is stronger without it.

Agreed.

Pumpkin_King
May 17th, 2019, 11:07 PM
Ooof. If I'm that far outweighed, then I guess I can't say much. I'm just going to register my strong objection to an auto-wound.

flameslayer93
May 18th, 2019, 06:42 PM
An autowound for +2 attack is a risky trade, imo. Mindjack helps a lot though. Testing will tell a lot more.

I prefer Neural Enchancement or Neural Attack Enhancement (sounds a lot like a classic heroscape power name) for the name if we don’t use Stimulant.

All Your Pie
May 18th, 2019, 07:38 PM
Jydel
Vydar

Life 5
Move 5
Range 4
Attack 3
Defense 4
Points: ???

Human/Posthuman
Unique Hero
Neuomancer
Tricky
Medium 5

Neural Enhancement
When attacking with Jydel, you may place a wound marker on this army card. If you do, add 2 to his attack value.

Mindjack 13
After taking a turn with Jydel, if he inflicted one or more wounds on a Unique Hero with his normal attack this turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, take temporary control of the figure he attacked and immediately take a turn with them. After the turn, control of the figure returns to the player that controlled it before the Mindjack.

This looks like about where we're starting on a draft, then. Any thoughts on 4 vs. 3 defense, point value, or required roll for mindjack? I just picked 13 as a number that was decently likely but doesn't slide too close to the 50/50 mark.

Pumpkin_King
May 18th, 2019, 07:52 PM
I like 4 defense. Couldn’t tell you on cost. Mindjack makes him hard to price.

All Your Pie
May 18th, 2019, 08:01 PM
Some very quick and shoddy probability work tells me that Mindjack is about as likely to work against a 3 defense hero as Enslave is without an attack boost, and is a little more likely if you take the extra NE dice. Against 4 defense, it's less likely than enslave unless you enhance, in which case it's more likely.

NE also makes his offensive potential a little higher. He lacks the OM removal of the Mindflayer, but I'd still say he comes in at a slightly higher price bracket. 110 (with 4 defense), maybe?

Astroking112
May 18th, 2019, 08:48 PM
An autowound for +2 attack is a risky trade, imo. Mindjack helps a lot though. Testing will tell a lot more.

Agreed, but going the other way (2 base with +3 from NE) makes the decision-making too one-sided, in my opinion. If we want to avoid throwing 6 dice at range, we don't have many options other than 3 base with +2. The prospect of a Mindjack of course makes the sacrifice more appealing.

My first impression says that 110 points is too low with 4D/5L, given his offensive potential, but the desire to wound yourself to boost your chances might balance that out. I'd be willing to test at that point value and adjust it as necessary.

All Your Pie
May 18th, 2019, 09:15 PM
An autowound for +2 attack is a risky trade, imo. Mindjack helps a lot though. Testing will tell a lot more.

Agreed, but going the other way (2 base with +3 from NE) makes the decision-making too one-sided, in my opinion. If we want to avoid throwing 6 dice at range, we don't have many options other than 3 base with +2. The prospect of a Mindjack of course makes the sacrifice more appealing.

My first impression says that 110 points is too low with 4D/5L, given his offensive potential, but the desire to wound yourself to boost your chances might balance that out. I'd be willing to test at that point value and adjust it as necessary.

We definitely have some room to mess with numbers. It's worth noting that Zetacron from height can throw effectively 6 dice at twice the range that this guy can. Of course, that's without Mindjack and drastically lower survivability.

I could see the 130-140 point range here as well, or we could adjust up to a +3 dice bonus if we're feeling the need to spice it up. I'm always inclined to avoid 120 points whenever possible simply because of how crowded that field is, but I'm much less concerned about that in a master set setting than I would be otherwise. We can also lower survivability by dropping life or defense to 4 or 3 respectively, though that makes a much swingier and delicate to play figure--not inherently a bad thing, but a relevant part of that consideration.

flameslayer93
May 18th, 2019, 09:52 PM
I don’t mind making him expensive, just as long as you guys know that he will be expensive. 5L/3D is my preference for this guy, as 4D seems too high for a mage character.

I just wonder if people are going to see the wound as too much downside to want to use the power at all. Its already uncommon for new people to disengage even if it would put them in a better position.

Pumpkin_King
May 19th, 2019, 12:13 PM
And Overextend is seemingly rarely ever worth it.

Astroking112
May 19th, 2019, 02:31 PM
Throwing 5 dice at range and potentially taking a turn with a powerful hero does imply that he'll be expensive to me, but I'm content to let that come through in playtesting. We should definitely test him against Nilfheim + Greenscales, Major Q9, and other "big" heroes that could be devastating to betray the other player for a turn. While Zetacron can deal more raw damage, I'm more concerned about what the Mindjacked heroes can do.

I don't agree that Overextend is rarely worth it. Both Eldgrim and Alastair MacDirk have reasons to Overextend (Eldgrim to reach a glyph in one turn and bring himself closer to death, and Alastair to take advantage of his strong 5 attack a second time). So long as the design provides a good incentive for placing a wound, it presents an interesting risk to the player.

NecroBlade
May 19th, 2019, 04:30 PM
Current talking points added to the OP.

Whichever way we go on Neural Enhancement (placeholder name), I think we err toward caution and boost as needed. We can get away with a bigger boost if the self-wound is automatic, or if we stick to a small boost then we can tie it to the d20.

I'm kind of coming around to +2R/+1A and a d20 roll of 7, though. If auto-wound, maybe +1R/+2A to make both Range and Attack 5 for the enhanced attack.

Astroking112
May 19th, 2019, 06:00 PM
I still like the idea of boosting move over range as mentioned earlier. I agree with the sentiment of starting low and increasing the strength of the boost as needed, though.

Pumpkin_King
May 20th, 2019, 01:18 PM
Let’s also keep in mind an attack die as a wounding option, to help concerns about two d20 abilities.

Astroking112
May 20th, 2019, 03:17 PM
I do not think that an attack die for NE is truly different than a D20 with a roll of 11 or higher. Sure, it may look different, but it's still needless ornamentation in my opinion, and the design feels better off without the "take a chance to boost your chance to get a chance to take a turn with another figure."

All Your Pie
May 23rd, 2019, 09:34 PM
I think we're close to being able to run some initial tests here. My personal preference is to start with 5 life, 3 defense and adjust from there.

flameslayer93
May 24th, 2019, 12:37 AM
I’m willing to begin testing him as is. 140 seems like a safe start.

Pumpkin_King
May 24th, 2019, 01:06 AM
I do not think that an attack die for NE is truly different than a D20 with a roll of 11 or higher. Sure, it may look different, but it's still needless ornamentation in my opinion, and the design feels better off without the "take a chance to boost your chance to get a chance to take a turn with another figure."

I was just saying to keep it in mind if we went a wound-chance route at all. We are going with guaranteed wound (and the boost was always guaranteed in any version I feel.)

Astroking112
May 24th, 2019, 02:00 AM
I know, I just wanted to stress that it detracts from the design for the same reasons, at least in my eyes. If we do end up going down the wound-chance route later, though, I would say that an attack die at least feels better than another D20 there.

If we're fine with the guaranteed wound and Mind Jack, then I'd agree that Jydel(?) is ready to begin playtesting. I'm somewhat fond of 4L/4D over 5L/3D, but that's a minor enough preference that I'm fine with starting testing either way.

NecroBlade
May 24th, 2019, 03:10 PM
Using attack dice instead of 11+ for 50/50 chances is different because the roll cannot be modified by Lodin or other d20 enhancers.

I do think we may need a vote on exactly what Neural Enhancement does.

Before taking a turn with [?] Jydel [?], you may place a wound marker on this card to add 2 to his Move, Range, and Attack this turn.

Before taking a turn with [?] Jydel [?], you may roll one unblockable attack die against Jydel to add 1 to his Move, Range, and Attack this turn.

Before taking a turn with [?] Jydel [?], you may add 1 to his Move, Range, and Attack this turn, then roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 7 or lower, place a wound marker on this card.

Etc, etc.

Astroking112
May 24th, 2019, 03:20 PM
I don't think that Lodin or other D20 enhancers change the fundamental feeling of the power.

"Roll one unblockable attack die against Jydel(?)" is C3G wording, I believe. If we end up going that route, we should probably follow Eltahale's example instead and say:
Before taking a turn with Jydel, you may add X to his attack/range/move. If you do, roll 1 attack die. If a skull is rolled, place 1 wound marker on this Army Card.

All Your Pie
May 24th, 2019, 03:21 PM
My impression is that there was a rough consensus on at least trying the version of Neural Enhancement with an automatic wound. Regardless, if we're putting things up for vote, the version I support is the one where you place a wound marker to gain a +2 attack boost and no other boosts.

NecroBlade
May 24th, 2019, 03:29 PM
You're right, we would use the (horribly wordy) Eltahale wording if we went that route. I still may be coming around on wound chance instead of automatic, but I don't particularly like the idea of a run of good luck essentially permanently boosting his stats with no downside. What about modeling it after Stinger Drain? Very low roll is a wound, mid roll is nothing, high roll is boost?

All Your Pie
May 24th, 2019, 03:33 PM
You're right, we would use the (horribly wordy) Eltahale wording if we went that route. I still may be coming around on wound chance instead of automatic, but I don't particularly like the idea of a run of good luck essentially permanently boosting his stats with no downside. What about modeling it after Stinger Drain? Very low roll is a wound, mid roll is nothing, high roll is boost?

This could work in theory, but we would need to rework the base numbers slightly I feel. Taking a turn with Stingers and getting no boost is hardly a disappointment, but taking a turn with a single 3 attack hero and not getting the boost because you got unlucky is a massive waste of an OM.

NecroBlade
May 24th, 2019, 03:37 PM
I imagine it would keep his cost down, for sure.

Astroking112
May 24th, 2019, 03:43 PM
I'm not sure how low it would actually take his cost. He still has massive combat potential (with potentially 5 dice from range, or 6 from height) and the possibility to Mind Control another hero. Adding more chance to the mix will make him less reliable, but official HeroScape mostly priced everything similar under its best potential (Deadeye Dan, Sudema, etc.). There are some other examples like Atlaga or Braxas, but I would imagine that he still wouldn't be cheap.

You're right, we would use the (horribly wordy) Eltahale wording if we went that route. I still may be coming around on wound chance instead of automatic, but I don't particularly like the idea of a run of good luck essentially permanently boosting his stats with no downside. What about modeling it after Stinger Drain? Very low roll is a wound, mid roll is nothing, high roll is boost?

Stinger Drain inherently runs into the same problem. If you keep rolling well enough, you'll just keep getting the boost with no downside. If we tweak it to be more reliable to make him more worth his cost/potential (and to avoid the frustration of wasting an OM on him), then the odds of a good run get more likely, but if we tweak it too much the other way, we end up with Sudema.

Pumpkin_King
May 24th, 2019, 07:52 PM
I say let’s test it with a auto-wound giving +2 attack.

If testing reveals that combination is too strong, we can fiddle with it. If it reveals it’s not strong enough (or if the risk doesn’t justify the reward most of the time) we can move to a wound-chance.

We can go round in circles theoryscaping all day, but I think this is something that’ll come out in PT.

capsocrates
May 26th, 2019, 08:24 PM
The Book of "Jace, Investigator"

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019386330939398/image0.jpg?width=508&height=676

Printer-Friendly PDF

VYDAR :vydar:
NAME Jydel?
Species Posthuman?
Unique Hero
Class Neuromancer
Personality Tricky
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 4-5?
MOVE 5 / BASIC
RANGE 4 / BASIC
ATTACK 3 / BASIC
DEFENSE 3-4? / BASIC

POINTS

NEURAL ENHANCEMENT
When attacking with [Jydel], you may place a wound marker on this army card to 2 to his attack value.

MIND JACK 13
After taking a turn with [Jydel], if he inflicted one or more wounds on a Unique Hero with his normal attack this turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, take temporary control of the figure he attacked and immediately take a turn with them. After the turn, control of the figure returns to the player that controlled it before the Mind Jack.

The figure used for this unit is Jace, Investigator from Arena of the Planeswalkers Shadows Over Innistrad.


Character Bio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9yn1DpZkHQ


-Rulings and Clarifications-
TBA

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
TBA

Synergy Benefits Offered
TBA

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
TBA


https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/567009548041453579/567019386330939398/image0.jpg?width=508&height=676


Wow this is a great OP. Key thoughts from me:
His defense should absolutely be no higher than 3. He is like a cross between cowboy and a mage, and all of those figures have 3 or less defense. I would push strongly for 2. It will make him more fragile, rein him in, and drive down his cost.
I love the auto wound for +2 attack. I definitely would not add to range or move, I wouldn't go above a +2 attack bonus, and +1 attack is not enough to be worth it.
Mind Jack is super cool also. I love it as is.

NecroBlade
May 26th, 2019, 09:44 PM
I don't love him at 2 Defense with auto-self-wounding. Maybe if we end up with wound chance instead. But hurting your own figures while your opponent is actively trying to do the same is already a steep cost.

All Your Pie
May 26th, 2019, 09:59 PM
Regardless of where you fall on 2 defense, I think I'm convinced at this point that 4 is too high for this miniature and design. 3/5, 2/5 or 2/6 are all defense/life combos I'd consider acceptable, with a preference for starting at 3/5.

It's worth noting that this figure is already going to be pretty splashy and high-variance, so efforts to make him more consistent through defense can only go so far. The possibility of his defense and price coming down can also make playing him aggressively more appealing, since he'd be less of an investment.

Pumpkin_King
May 27th, 2019, 12:20 AM
I can see 3. I’d struggle with 2.

Astroking112
May 27th, 2019, 03:59 AM
2 seems too low to me. I'm fine with starting at 3D/5L.

flameslayer93
May 27th, 2019, 08:25 AM
Why try to drive his cost down? He could have 0 defense and I’m sure he’d still be fairly expensive because he can mindjack stuff like Q9 and either have him jump in a pool of lava or gun down his own buddies with relative ease.

capsocrates
May 27th, 2019, 12:27 PM
t this mini suggests a defense of 3 so strongly to all of you? Plenty of medium humanoid figures with ranged attacks have 2 defense.

Regardless of where you fall on 2 defense, I think I'm convinced at this point that 4 is too high for this miniature and design. 3/5, 2/5 or 2/6 are all defense/life combos I'd consider acceptable, with a preference for starting at 3/5.
I'm glad you came around. :)


I think 2/6 is a better starting point because it will be more obvious if he needs a change to 3/5 after play testing; if we start with 3/5 we may never try him with 2/6 and miss out on the opportunity. I'm not actually opposed to 3/5 I just think 2/6 is a better starting point.


It's worth noting that this figure is already going to be pretty splashy and high-variance, so efforts to make him more consistent through defense can only go so far. The possibility of his defense and price coming down can also make playing him aggressively more appealing, since he'd be less of an investment.
Exactly. If you want to invest in rats and Raelin for the army to bump his survivability up to 4 you can do that, but by default I think he should be a high threat glass cannon.

flameslayer93
May 27th, 2019, 12:33 PM
I think 2/6 is a better starting point because it will be more obvious if he needs a change to 3/5 after play testing; if we start with 3/5 we may never try him with 2/6 and miss out on the opportunity. I'm not actually opposed to 3/5 I just think 2/6 is a better starting point.


Ah, I thought you were implying 5L 2D, which simply seemed like the goal was to cut costs down.

capsocrates
May 27th, 2019, 03:00 PM
2/5 is not a bad starting point either; that would probably put him in the 50-70 point range. Maybe with a bump in his range value. Could be more fun and a little easier to justify throwing into an army.

flameslayer93
May 27th, 2019, 03:10 PM
Nuking Q9/Nilfy with a potential 6 Dice at (short) range, while simultaneously having a good chance to mindjack does not belong on a unit under 100 points imo. He dies to squadscape sure, but he’s more than capable of dealing tons of extra damage, as long as the other player has a big enough piece. As crappy as Sudema is, she can still OHKO big heroes to make up her points while still stoning squad figures fairly reliably. With these stats, this guy is going to priced around Sudema levels while generally being worth it (against the right builds of course).

Edit: And depending on when his autowound triggers, I can see players sacking him to nuke even a squad figure if that’s all he can reach anyway.

All Your Pie
May 27th, 2019, 03:37 PM
While I agree that we should be a bit careful with pricing this guy’s offensive potential, a single attack of 5 isn’t going to “nuke” anyone (and I specify 5 here because getting height with only 4 range is far from a sure thing. Q9 easily outranges this guy, and no Nilfy player worth their salt is going to let him sit on low ground that easily.) I agree that 50-70 is a bit low, since even without boosting Mindjack is about as good as Enslave against 3-defense figures, but depending on his other stats I could see this guy in either the 90-115 range or more in the 130-140 range. I would prefer the former if possible.

Pumpkin_King
May 27th, 2019, 05:13 PM
Caps actually has swayed me a little towards 6L/2D.

Astroking112
May 27th, 2019, 08:43 PM
My fear with 2D was that he would become too frustrating to play. As flameslayer noted, he can't be cheap considering how much damage he can deal (even without lava on the field), so if he becomes too much of a glass cannon, the concept of wounding yourself to boost the chances becomes more of a foregone conclusion because he won't last that long anyway.

I think 2/6 is a better starting point because it will be more obvious if he needs a change to 3/5 after play testing; if we start with 3/5 we may never try him with 2/6 and miss out on the opportunity. I'm not actually opposed to 3/5 I just think 2/6 is a better starting point.

This is a very solid argument, though. You've convinced me that at least starting at 2D/6L is worthwhile, and we can always jump to 3/5 if such concerns were warranted.

NecroBlade
May 27th, 2019, 09:43 PM
I could see 6L/2D as a starting point, since it technically also gives him 1 more Life to play with for his power (though it'll get gunned down easier).

capsocrates
May 28th, 2019, 04:22 PM
I could see 6L/2D as a starting point, since it technically also gives him 1 more Life to play with for his power (though it'll get gunned down easier).
We'll have to balance effectiveness in an optimal tournament setting (rats, raelin, etc.) with fun in an AotV only setting.

flameslayer93
May 28th, 2019, 11:03 PM
I could see 6L/2D as a starting point, since it technically also gives him 1 more Life to play with for his power (though it'll get gunned down easier).
We'll have to balance effectiveness in an optimal tournament setting (rats, raelin, etc.) with fun in an AotV only setting.

I think with the Ruiner’s current design direction, plus other potentially strong heroes like Chandra (if she becomes a special attack specialist), we should have no issue finding Cyberpunk Jace fun in an AotV setting. :)

capsocrates
May 29th, 2019, 06:15 PM
I think with the Ruiner’s current design direction, plus other potentially strong heroes like Chandra (if she becomes a special attack specialist), we should have no issue finding Cyberpunk Jace fun in an AotV setting. :)
I was referring to his potential fragility.

Astroking112
May 29th, 2019, 07:22 PM
I think with the Ruiner’s current design direction, plus other potentially strong heroes like Chandra (if she becomes a special attack specialist), we should have no issue finding Cyberpunk Jace fun in an AotV setting. :)
I was referring to his potential fragility.

That's my primary concern with making him too frail as well. If we aren't careful, it'll become more frustrating than fun to try to get him into position or use his powers.

That said, I'm willing to test 6L/2D and only bump up his defense if it's needed. Do we have a consensus to start there?

flameslayer93
May 29th, 2019, 08:43 PM
I think with the Ruiner’s current design direction, plus other potentially strong heroes like Chandra (if she becomes a special attack specialist), we should have no issue finding Cyberpunk Jace fun in an AotV setting. :)
I was referring to his potential fragility.

That's my primary concern with making him too frail as well. If we aren't careful, it'll become more frustrating than fun to try to get him into position or use his powers.

That said, I'm willing to test 6L/2D and only bump up his defense if it's needed. Do we have a consensus to start there?

Another way to aid this is to watch the general attack level of the set carefully. 3 out of the 4 designs so far have relatively big attack stats, with only the Lanterns having a weak attack output. Having more units (both squads and heroes) have lower attacking stats between 1-3 (1 being on a Deadly Striker or something) will help Cyberpunk Jace last a bit longer in AotV only scenarios.

Pumpkin_King
May 30th, 2019, 01:14 AM
Let’s remind ourselves that units like Syvarris have 2D. I say we put that in the OP, and that’s something that can just come out in PT.

NecroBlade
May 30th, 2019, 08:21 PM
OP updated. Not gonna lie, the 6/5/4/3/2 descending stats have a certain appeal. :lol:

Astroking112
May 30th, 2019, 09:17 PM
Now we just need to make him cost 1 point to keep up the pattern. :p

NecroBlade
May 30th, 2019, 09:25 PM
I mean, 100 might not be out of the question. :ponder:

flameslayer93
June 2nd, 2019, 10:39 AM
So, are we ok to start testing the stats in the OP? We can give 100 points a shot.

Astroking112
June 2nd, 2019, 11:13 AM
No complaints from me. I'm inclined to think that 100 might be too low given his potential, but I'm not opposed to trying it out.

Pumpkin_King
June 20th, 2019, 01:17 AM
We can test at 100. I’m not convinced he’ll be worth too much more, what with the self-wounding and multiple checks for Mindjack, but 100 is a good place to start him.

NecroBlade
June 21st, 2019, 10:15 AM
If the OP seems to work for everyone for now (I can put 100 points on him), let's figure out his name (and species). Then we can vote (yea or nay) on running him through editing to make sure he's ready for testing.

Astroking112
June 21st, 2019, 11:54 AM
Given that we're eyeing future Earth as the planet, I think that Human is a natural choice for species. I would say Cyborg, but the Havech Eradicators have established a precedent of Cyborg as a class.

I can live with Jydel for his name. I wouldn't be opposed to a reference to the cyberpunk genre instead, but the Neuromancer class and design itself do a fairly good job of conveying that already, I think.

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 01:31 AM
William Gibson wrote the book Neuromancer. Could go with Gibson.

Posthuman rings better to me, but I can understand if it trips people up.

NecroBlade
June 22nd, 2019, 12:47 PM
I would like a reference to the genre.

I'm not opposed to either Human or Posthuman. Do we want him to have potential Human synergy? If yes, then Human; if no, Posthuman.

Pumpkin_King
June 22nd, 2019, 05:21 PM
What human synergies are there? As far as I know, there aren’t, so I think that that’s a non-issue. It’s pretty much just a flavor thing.

Astroking112
June 22nd, 2019, 05:29 PM
Ebon Armor are the only one that immediately comes to my mind.

NecroBlade
June 25th, 2019, 10:34 PM
I was speaking more hypothetically, just making sure we're making a conscious decision about his potential. But yes there's Ebon Armor (not that that's particularly powerful in any way, mind you).

Astroking112
June 25th, 2019, 11:12 PM
I agree that the Ebon Armor aren't a particularly powerful synergy to concern ourselves with. It's tough to envision future broad Human synergies that could break the design (given how many diverse humans we've already seen), so I think that it's mostly a matter of theme for Human vs. Posthuman. I remember that some people had problems with Posthuman when it was brought up on a SoV submission, but either one is reasonable enough in my eyes and I could live with either.

All Your Pie
June 25th, 2019, 11:16 PM
I prefer human myself. I don't really know what posthuman is supposed to mean when this figure still basically just looks like a human. It's not like the Romans were called Ancient Humans or something.

Pumpkin_King
June 26th, 2019, 01:11 AM
Posthuman in his case would mean that he’s been heavily cybernetically augmented. If it trips people up, human is fine. I’ll be the first to admit I tend to lean a little more outlandish themewise.

flameslayer93
June 26th, 2019, 01:28 AM
The guy has glowing blue arms. Posthuman fits better than Human.

All Your Pie
June 26th, 2019, 01:55 AM
The guy has glowing blue arms. Posthuman fits better than Human.
Even so I would vastly prefer human species with Cyborg as a class to Posthuman species. I don’t think that basically a human wearing blue sleeves justifies him having a new unique and vaguely defined species entry.

flameslayer93
June 26th, 2019, 04:15 AM
The guy has glowing blue arms. Posthuman fits better than Human.
Even so I would vastly prefer human species with Cyborg as a class to Posthuman species. I don’t think that basically a human wearing blue sleeves justifies him having a new unique and vaguely defined species entry.

No, not blue sleeves. They’re full on translucent. Granted it’s not a *lot*, and it’s hard to tell from the picture.

Astroking112
June 26th, 2019, 12:03 PM
Is it possible to get a different picture that can more clearly show this? I won't be able to see the figure in person again for several weeks, and like you said, it's hard to see that from the picture that we already have.

If his arms are truly translucent, then I think that there could be a solid (pun intended) case for Posthuman, although I still think that Human would work fine.

flameslayer93
June 26th, 2019, 03:11 PM
Is it possible to get a different picture that can more clearly show this? I won't be able to see the figure in person again for several weeks, and like you said, it's hard to see that from the picture that we already have.

If his arms are truly translucent, then I think that there could be a solid (pun intended) case for Posthuman, although I still think that Human would work fine.

Due to my work schedule for this week (and last, and next), I probably won’t have time for a bit. I can ask LoveElemental to get some closeups though.

Pumpkin_King
June 27th, 2019, 01:03 AM
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/eAgAAOSwqfpZw~us/s-l300.jpg

Maybe this will help? I can try and get an in person photo tomorrow if we need it.

Astroking112
June 28th, 2019, 06:53 PM
That does help a lot. I'm not convinced that we need to go with Posthuman because of those sleeves, but it does make the argument for it a little easier. I'm still fine with either one with a slight preference to Human.

flameslayer93
June 29th, 2019, 09:00 AM
Looking at the pic, I'm comfortable with Human. I'm just going to assume my copy of Jace didn't get enough blue paint. I'm not worried about it, because my copy of human Arlinn looks like Two-Face.


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/a/a0/1692963-profile_twoface.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20111103064141


But yeah, if his arms aren't supposed to be clear (the Planeswalkers figures are naturally clear, but get painted over so not enough paint looks translucent) there's no theme break if we call him Human. My preference is still Posthuman because of Uniqueness and there's no reason to not use the race other than the SoV's hesistancy to call a brain in a jar a posthuman.

It looks like the opinions are here:
AYP: Human
Astro: Human
Caps: ???
FS: Post cereal
PK: Posthuman
NB: ???

NecroBlade capsocrates
Any preference towards Posthuman or Human? If it goes to a tie, I'm comfortable with swapping to Human just to get things going again. If it's 4-2 Posthuman we should go that route (and let the vaguely defined species become something that FanScape will get to define a la Arctorus, Mariedians, and Hybrids).

capsocrates
June 29th, 2019, 01:38 PM
I prefer human.

Definitely opposed to post cereal

NecroBlade
June 30th, 2019, 11:51 AM
Since Human has 3 votes now, I can safely vote for Post Cereal. ;)

I'm fine with Human, so I'll put that in the OP.

Pumpkin_King
June 30th, 2019, 12:45 PM
Human it is.

Since we haven’t settled on a name, here’s a list of popular cyberpunk authors. I haven’t looked through the whole list, but maybe there’s a name we like.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-essential-cyberpunk-reading-list-1714180001

NecroBlade
June 30th, 2019, 12:51 PM
William Gibson wrote Neuromancer, so there may be a good connection there somewhere between "Jydel's" name and Class.

Pumpkin_King
June 30th, 2019, 12:56 PM
Neuromancer Gibson sounds good.

Astroking112
June 30th, 2019, 03:27 PM
I'm not a fan of putting the class in the unit's name. I also would prefer to reference more than one work, so Neuromancer as the class is enough from William Gibson for me.

I still like Jydel since it sounds similar to Tyrell (the shadowy corporarion in Blade Runner manufacturing androids). If we want to reference an author instead of a character for the name, then we could always take a first name (which sounds more natural) with Jydel as a last name. Something like John or James Jydel, possibly.

Alternatively, if we wanted to take inspiration from Akira (which is up there with Blade Runner in terms of importance to the genre, IMO), then we could use a more Asian name than a western one and have him be from a future Eastern country. The two main characters in Akira are Kaneda and Tetsuo, although there are some psychics that I'd need to pull out my film to remember the name of as well. The author, Katsuhiro Otomo, could also serve as inspiration if we wanted to go that route.

Pumpkin_King
June 30th, 2019, 04:01 PM
Jydel Gibson? Not opposed to an Asian name either for a Ghost in the Shell vibe. Teh figure sells it.

Astroking112
July 4th, 2019, 01:59 PM
Does anyone have more thoughts on the name? Once we get that ironed out, he should be ready to go through the editing gauntlet.

flameslayer93
July 6th, 2019, 12:51 AM
I’m used to calling him Jydel or Jace at this point. Jydel or Jydell works good. Jydel Gibson would also sound good.

NecroBlade
July 7th, 2019, 03:00 PM
Neuromancer being enough of its own reference is a fair point (and I prefer leaving it as the class, too, not in the name). We could even use Tyrell without changing to Jydel, as in Tyrell [lastname] or [firstname] Tyrell. Maybe one of those two options with an Asian name reference for Akira?

Astroking112
July 7th, 2019, 03:16 PM
Tetsuo Tyrell sounds pretty good to me (I'm not sure how it would sound to someone more familiar with the language, though). I'd also be fine with changing it up.

An Asian name holds more appeal to me because it's likely that the other humanoids will have more Western inspirations. I'm not familiar with Ghost in the Shell, so if anyone has a better suggestion from there then feel free to share it.

All Your Pie
July 16th, 2019, 02:04 AM
We should keep in mind that this unit will be the first one with a cyberpunk theme in the game, which means that this design will have to do a lot of work towards conveying that theme. Referencing an author name might be a wink and nod to those in the know, but it won't feel particularly cyberpunk to anyone else. If we must go for a reference, a character name feels much more appropriate here.

NecroBlade
July 18th, 2019, 03:15 PM
Tetsuo Tyrell
Works for me. Feels like something from a blended future.

If we must go for a reference, a character name feels much more appropriate here.

I don't see how it makes a difference. Whatever we choose will be this character's name regardless of whether or not the player is in the know on any references.

Astroking112
August 4th, 2019, 03:18 AM
Is anyone opposed to going forward with Tetsuo Tyrell? I know that Pumpkin_King mentioned he was fine with an Asian name, flameslayer mentioned that he was used to Jydel at this point, All Your Pie prefers a character name if we're making a reference, and NecroBlade and I are fine with it.

It's been a good while, so I'd like to settle the name now if there are no strong objections. We can always change it further down the road if it isn't working out.

flameslayer93
August 4th, 2019, 03:24 AM
Tetsuo Tyrell is a :up: from me.

NecroBlade
August 7th, 2019, 10:15 PM
Tetsuo Tyrell hits the right notes for me. 8)

Astroking112
August 15th, 2019, 04:36 PM
With the name out of the way, I think that we're ready to move to Editing. It does look like Neural Enhancement in the OP is missing an "add" for his attack dice bonus, but once that's fixed (and if no one else has any concerns) I vote YEA to send Tetsuo forward.

flameslayer93
August 15th, 2019, 04:55 PM
Just add that in and I’m ready to give this a Yeah.

NecroBlade
August 16th, 2019, 05:21 PM
Add added. And yea.

NecroBlade
August 18th, 2019, 11:37 AM
Let's give PK, caps, and AYP a few more days to chime in, then it's on to editing.

Yea @NecroBlade (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=1508)
Yea @Pumpkin_King (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=810)
Yea @Astroking112 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=16492)
@All Your Pie (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=10063)
Yea @flameslayer93 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=8791)
@capsocrates (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=11259)

Pumpkin_King
August 19th, 2019, 04:24 PM
Love the name. Gets a yeah from me!

All Your Pie
August 21st, 2019, 08:14 PM
YEA

Swarley
August 23rd, 2019, 10:01 AM
Just stopping in to say this one looks fun to play!

flameslayer93
August 23rd, 2019, 10:30 AM
Just stopping in to say this one looks fun to play!

Thanks! He’ll be quite a fun unit to play! :D

Pumpkin_King
August 23rd, 2019, 02:03 PM
After taking a break and coming back to this guy, I still think we'll need to keep some options on back burner. Mainly tweaking his abilities trigger. Right now he doesn't seem like he'll be worth using, but I'm happy to wait for testing.

Astroking112
August 23rd, 2019, 02:42 PM
I'm not so sure that he won't be worth using. 5 attack dice at range (even at just 4) is still good, and his low defense and cost ensures that you won't be expecting him to last long in any case (to be honest, though, he only needs to get off one good Mind Jack to get a ton of value, and he'll probably be able to get in at least two attacks with smart play). Couple that with a pretty high chance to mind control units on a successful wound and I think that he'll be a very high risk, high reward unit.

Of course, if he's drastically underperforming and never really having a moment to shine, we can edit the design to account for that and make him less risky to play, but that risk is one of the key aspects of the current design from my perspective.

Astroking112
August 29th, 2019, 01:43 PM
This vote's gone on for 14 days and has a majority with 5/6 votes in favor of moving forward. I think that it's safe to call it now and move on to Editing if no one has any major objections.

Pumpkin_King
August 29th, 2019, 03:53 PM
I'm inclined to agree.

NecroBlade
September 1st, 2019, 01:50 PM
On to Editing!

Playtesting may show us we need to tweek Neural Enhancement a little, but we'll find out when we get there.

flameslayer93
September 8th, 2019, 02:59 PM
On to Editing!

Playtesting may show us we need to tweek Neural Enhancement a little, but we'll find out when we get there.

It’s probably worth tagging Scytale if you haven’t PM’d him already. :)

Scytale
September 8th, 2019, 04:57 PM
On to Editing!

Playtesting may show us we need to tweek Neural Enhancement a little, but we'll find out when we get there.

It’s probably worth tagging @Scytale (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/member.php?u=968) if you haven’t PM’d him already. :)
Yeah, I'm behind in my C3V, SoV, and Codex duties... I'll get to the stuff here after I do some catching up.

Pumpkin_King
September 10th, 2019, 07:37 PM
If needed, I'm sure someone can run through the list for you.

Scytale
September 10th, 2019, 07:52 PM
If needed, I'm sure someone can run through the list for you.
It's best if I do it. Just going through the process forces me to carefully think through each question with my Editor hat on.

Pumpkin_King
September 10th, 2019, 07:53 PM
Understood :up:

Scytale
September 18th, 2019, 05:36 PM
First, you do know that Neural Enhancement can kill Tetsuo before he gets to make his attack, yes? He will die without making an attack.

I made some wording changes.

NEURAL ENHANCEMENT
Before attacking with Tetsuo Tyrell, you may place a wound marker on this Army Card to add 2 to his Attack value.

MIND JACK 13
When revealing an Order Marker on Tetsuo Tyrell, after taking Tetsuo Tyrell's turn, if he inflicted one or more wounds on a Unique Hero with his normal attack this turn but did not destroy it, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, take temporary control of the Hero he attacked and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to its previous owner. All Order Markers that were on the figure's Army Card will stay on the Army Card.General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? N/A

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, Tyrell could not use either Neural Enhancement or Mind Jack. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording?

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? Tyrell could use Neural Enhancement when attacking a DO. Mind Jack cannot work on DOs because they are not Unique Heroes.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? No

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No, the Mind Jack turn takes place after Tyrell's turn.

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? Yes If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? Mystic Sacrifice could be used to increase the Mind Jack roll. If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? Queen of Thieves could be used to increase the Mind Jack roll. If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy?

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? Yes, but Mind Jack is safely limited to wounds inflicted by Tyrell's normal attack.

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? Yes, even if Tyrell is killed during a Mind Jack turn, control would still return to the previous owner. If so, is that clearly worded? No, but it's existing wording used on Enslave, so any rulings that affect that would affect this power as well.

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? N/A

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? No If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Both powers are clearly optional.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? Nothing special.

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Neural Enhancement is a specific name for a reusable power. Could a more generic name be considered?

22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Yes Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc.


Capitalization Checklist:

Order Marker
normal attack
Army Card
wound
wound marker
Unique
Hero
Attack value


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. Human is singular.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. Neuromancer is singular.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "Tyrell's" is correct.

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. N/A


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? The order marker language on Mind Jack prevents turn-taking loops with Mind Jack. When Enslaved/Moon Frenzied, the temporary owner could kill Tyrell using Neural Enhancement.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? Nothing special.


Normal Attack Power Checklist:

1. Is it dependent on the type of space the target(s) is on? No If so, does it work clearly with double-spaced figures and destructible objects?

2. Does it affect targeting? No If so, how does it interact with Smoke Powder, Tribal Protection, Combat Challenge, Opportunity Strike, Quick Draw, and Façade?

3. How does it interact with Hard Targets? Nothing special.

4. How does it interact with Aura of Despair? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Marked for Destruction? N/A

6. How does it interact with Vanish/Spider-Sense X/Spidey-Sense X/Disappearing Ninja/Hide in Darkness/Fleet Footed/Flutter? Nothing special.

7. How does it interact with Mask of Terror? Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with Ring of Protection? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with One Shield Defense? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Tough/Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? Nothing special.

11. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Nothing special.

12. How does it interact with Defensive Agility/Stealth Dodge/Nature's Protection/Acrobatic? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Gift of the Empress Aura? Nothing special.

14. How does it interact with Counter Strike/Evil Eye Defense/Evil Eye Protection? Nothing special.

15. How does it interact with Evil Eye Glare? Nothing special.

16. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

17. How does it interact with Upgrade? Nothing special.

18. How does it interact with Stealth Armor/Sacred Band Defy Death/etc? Nothing special.

19. How does it interact with Temporal Jump? Nothing special.

20. How does it interact with Cell Divide? Nothing special.

21. How does it interact with Exoskeleton/Redundant Systems? Nothing special.

22. How does it interact with Expendable Rabble? Nothing special.

23. How does it interact with Purple Heart? If Varan uses Purple Heart to absorb wounds from Tyrell attacking another figure, Tyrell could not use Mind Jack to take control of Varan because the wounds were not inflicted by the attack.

24. How does it interact with Dying Swipe/Rupture? Nothing special.

25. How does it interact with Teleport Reinforcements? Nothing special.

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? Nothing special.

27. How does it interact with Scatter and Scurry? Nothing special.

28. How does it interact with Defensive Vault? Nothing special.


Bonus/Replacement Turn Power (e.g. Bonding) Checklist:

1. Does it create bonding chains/loops? No, the order marker language on Mind Jack prevents any such loops. At least it doesn't introduce any more than Enslave.

2. Should it have "after revealing an Order Marker" language? It does.

3. Does the power inadvertently allow the same unit to take multiple turns? No, Mind Jack must be used on another figure.

4. Does it allow squad figures to take a turn? No If so, does it divide up a squad so that only some members of the squad can activate?


End of Turn Power Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Cold Healing/Cold Regenerate/Regenerate? I think these powers could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

2. How does it interact with Frenzy? I think Frenzy could still be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

3. How does it interact with Hyper Speed? I think Hyper Speed could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

4. How does it interact with Jandar's Dispatch? I think Jandar's Dispatch could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

5. How does it interact with Overextend Attack? I think Overextend Attack could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

6. How does it interact with Stab in the Back? I think Stab in the Back would happen after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not entirely sure. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

7. How does it interact with Summon the Rechets of Bogdan? I think Summon the Rechets of Bodgan could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

8. How does it interact with War Cry/Guerrilla Tactics? I think these powers could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

9. How does it interact with Divine Mission/Labors? I think there powers could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

10. How does it interact with Undead Legion/Flocking? N/A

11. How does it interact with Enslave/Command Dispatch/Heavy Support Command Beacon? These powers could not be used during a Mind Jack turn, nor vice versa.

12. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

13. How does it interact with Growing Heat? I think Growing Heat could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

14. How does it interact with Furious Wrath? The would from Furious Wrath would still occur at the end of a Mind Jack turn.

15. How does it interact with Marching Orders? N/A

16. How does it interact with Enraged? N/A

17. How does it interact with Hunting Party? I think Hunting Party could be used after a Mind Jack turn. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

19. How does it interact with Piercing Scream? N/A

flameslayer93
September 18th, 2019, 05:56 PM
I’m under the impression that Neural Enhancement killing him pre-attack is intentional. I envision it as him using his life force to fuel a more powerful spell, but he accidentally dies before lobbing a cyberfireball of doom™️.

As far as the name of Neural Emhancement goes, I think it’s better off sounding thematic (and future power names simply going a thematic route) than something generic like Blood Attack... which may not be as thematic.

But, I may be alone in the “Theme > Ease of Use” department. ;)

Astroking112
September 18th, 2019, 07:26 PM
I've always thought that Neural Enhancement not really being useable on his last life is intentional. It essentially started out as a steroid/futuristic drug reference, so I think that it's logical to apply the damage first to get the boost.

Like flameslayer, I'm fine with the name Neural Enhancement. I could settle for a more generic name, but I think that we'd probably lose out on some of the theme if we go any more general than "Neural Enhancement." I'm sure that if future units find a need to use a similar mechanic, they'll have a different context and potential theme for the power.

Ericth74
September 18th, 2019, 08:08 PM
This is by far my favorite custom of this pod. Can't wait to try it out!

Astroking112
September 18th, 2019, 11:27 PM
This is by far my favorite custom of this pod. Can't wait to try it out!

Thanks for the kind words! I'm pretty excited about Tetsuo myself. :)

We'll hopefully have him ready for testing soon, if you ever want to help us out while trying him in some games!

Scytale
September 19th, 2019, 10:47 AM
I don't really think "Neural Enhancement" is all that thematic myself, not for what the power does. The idea of a neural enhancement that allows him to attack better is all well and good, but why is it something he activates, and why does it hurt him to do it? Not very good tech, if you ask me. Something like "Neural Stimulator" would fit better, I'd think, and be at least somewhat more reusable.

Astroking112
September 19th, 2019, 05:17 PM
We originally were considering Neural Stimulant, but were hesitant because the name evokes drug imagery more than what Hasbro might've released. "Stimulator" sounds a little better to me personally, but not enough for me to really like it. That said, I think that I was the main one who wasn't comfortable with Neural Stimulant in the first place, so if I'm alone then I can certainly be outvoted.

I do think that the name is vague enough to encompass many technological justifications for the boost, although this is probably part of where the issue is coming from. In trying to avoid an explicit drug reference, we're essentially letting the reader justify the reason in their mind, which won't always come across. As Scytale said, just "Enhancement" on its own doesn't really explain why he has to take damage to use the power, for instance.

Here are some of the other ideas that we had thrown around before settling on Neural Enhancement, if we want to go with a new name altogether:
Neural Hack
Reprogram
Overload
Overclock Implants

Pumpkin_King
September 22nd, 2019, 12:47 AM
I was somewhat against the idea of a self-woudn from the beginning, so my thoughts on that are obvious. Still would suggest a chance of a wound.

"Neurostim" is a cyberpunky-sounding term.

flameslayer93
September 23rd, 2019, 07:47 PM
Neurostim sounds good to me. :up:

Not a fan of Neural Hack, it sounds like he’s hacking into another creature.
Reprogram sounds too permanent.
Overload can work and is my second choice.
Overclock Implants would be my third choice.

Astroking112
September 23rd, 2019, 08:54 PM
I'm not a big fan of Neurostim. It sounds vague without knowledge of the "Neural Stimulant" background, which runs into the same reason that I disliked Neural Stimulator in the first place.

My personal preference would be this order:
Overload > Reprogram > Overclock Implants > Neural Enhancement > Neural Hack > Neurostim > Neural Stimulant/Neural Stimulator

capsocrates
September 24th, 2019, 12:45 AM
Neurostim > Neural Overclock > Neural Overload > Neural Hack

The name is fine with me. Tetsuo doesn't quite roll off the tongue but I'll trust the references y'all were referring to. I can't lay any claim to being an expert on Cyberpunk as a genre.

NecroBlade
September 25th, 2019, 07:09 PM
Neural Enhancement doesn't bother me. I always thought it was kinda generic since it doesn't go into much detail to explain exactly what the enhancement is doing. But I do imagine it improving his vision and/or reflexes, that sort of thing, which does explain the boost. Plus the idea of enhancing those sort of things being a dangerous technology doesn't strike me as weird at all.

Neural Stimulator is an OK replacement. Neural Hack isn't bad, IMO, if for no other reason than rhyming with Mind Jack.

Pumpkin_King
September 26th, 2019, 03:17 AM
I personally think Neurostim is easy enough for someone without the background knowledge to gather from context clues what it is. Neuro - stim(ulant). It’s a common enough term in sci fi properties.

flameslayer93
September 26th, 2019, 06:06 PM
If a goal of simplifying without removing the concept of a unit is desired, we could try to remove the wounding requirement of Mindjack and just up the d20 roll. While I don’t think we can simplify stealing control of a figure further beyond letting the power become Mindshackle, we can attempt to reduce the amount of hoops required to trigger the power, with the downside of making it easier to attempt.

Edit: I don’t think Neural Enhancement needs to be simplified further though. I guess we can drop Mindjack altogether if both seem too much, but I’d advocate something other than that.

capsocrates
September 26th, 2019, 07:20 PM
If a goal of simplifying without removing the concept of a unit is desired
I don't think anyone was suggesting this is necessary here.

flameslayer93
September 26th, 2019, 07:29 PM
If a goal of simplifying without removing the concept of a unit is desired
I don't think anyone was suggesting this is necessary here.

Not in this thread, but over here: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2316925&postcount=21

capsocrates
September 26th, 2019, 07:40 PM
Not in this thread, but over here: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2316925&postcount=21
Yeah, I saw that. This card, though, is not that different in complexity from NGS, who was part of the very first master set. I don't see the need here.

Astroking112
September 26th, 2019, 07:53 PM
I personally think Neurostim is easy enough for someone without the background knowledge to gather from context clues what it is. Neuro - stim(ulant). It’s a common enough term in sci fi properties.

My problem with it is actually still the stimulant reference, which is why I prefer some variant of Overload, which also feels more reusable in different Sci-Fi themes.

Yeah, I saw that. This card, though, is not that different in complexity from NGS, who was part of the very first master set. I don't see the need here.

I highly agree. Tetsuo isn't really in a place with extra baggage that can easily be simplified right now, in my eyes: most of the complexity comes from the temporary control aspect of Mind Jack (which I personally think is still manageable on its own), not the pieces of design unique to him. His attack boost is certainly simple enough to use, and triggering Mind Jack off of a wound versus just the D20 doesn't feel like a meaningful reduction in complexity (rather, it takes away the tension and interplay between his attack boost and the power).

I really think that it's the other units that could benefit from the simplification. Unless we want to cut out temporary control altogether, I don't see many ways to simplify the design further without cutting into how its supposed to play. I'm also quite fond of the temporary control from Mind Jack, and I think that he'd be a lot of fun to play in the same way that Ne-Gok-Sa or the Airborne Elite were in RotV: a little bit more reading at first, but straightforward in practice while being risky and exciting.

Scytale
September 26th, 2019, 08:03 PM
Not in this thread, but over here: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2316925&postcount=21
Yeah, I saw that. This card, though, is not that different in complexity from NGS, who was part of the very first master set. I don't see the need here.
It has an extra requirement (wounding), and a temporary takeover is a bit more complex than permanent. And he has a second power in addition. All little things individually, but it's the overall amount that's important.

It is worth noting that NGS was one of the most complicated RotV units (rules-wise, at least), though less so than the Airborne Elite and Mimring.

Astroking112
September 26th, 2019, 08:28 PM
He does have more going on than Ne-Gok-Sa, though I think that it's not unreasonably so. Wounding as a requirement should be very easy even for new players to understand (removing it for just Enslave leaves most of the confusing parts intact), and the second power is one of the simplest ones amongst the set.

I'd rank his overall complexity above Ne-Gok-Sa but under the Airborne Elite, personally. Mimring is a bit of a special case because he's extremely easy to understand and many of the issues with Fireline aren't encountered by most people.

Pumpkin_King
September 29th, 2019, 01:50 AM
I still think taking the wound requirement out might be goo.d

capsocrates
September 29th, 2019, 04:05 AM
I would rather make a change like that based on playtesting feedback.

Pumpkin_King
September 29th, 2019, 04:46 AM
Alright. Let’s see if we can cut complexity elsewhere.

Astroking112
September 29th, 2019, 10:23 AM
Like I mentioned earlier, I don't think that Tetsuo is really in a place where we can make easy cuts to the card without cutting into the theme or playstyle. The wound requirements for his boost and Mind Jack are both vital to the design, and I think that they're each workable if we don't go overboard on designs elsewhere.

My personal preference at this point is to decide upon a replacement name for Neural Enhancement (I still like Overload, but if I'm the only person bothered by the drug implication then I can be outvoted on some variant of Stimulant) and move Tetsuo forward to testing. If he's truly too complicated, we can make changes based on that feedback.

NecroBlade
October 1st, 2019, 10:08 PM
but if I'm the only person bothered by the drug implication.

IMO, Neural Enhancement doesn't necessarily imply drugs. It can just as easily and maybe even more likely be some kind of electrical stimulation, or cyborg parts, or something like that which taps into the unused potential of the mind/body.

Astroking112
October 1st, 2019, 10:19 PM
but if I'm the only person bothered by the drug implication.

IMO, Neural Enhancement doesn't necessarily imply drugs. It can just as easily and maybe even more likely be some kind of electrical stimulation, or cyborg parts, or something like that which taps into the unused potential of the mind/body.

It's Neural Stimulant/Neurostim that I don't like. I'm fine with Neural Enhancement for exactly this reason.

NecroBlade
October 1st, 2019, 10:21 PM
I'm not opposed to Neurostim either simply because it is a genre trope, but you had mentioned Enhancement in your post so I was making sure we were on the same page. :)

Astroking112
October 1st, 2019, 10:29 PM
I'm not opposed to Neurostim either simply because it is a genre trope, but you had mentioned Enhancement in your post so I was making sure we were on the same page. :)

Blame my verbosity. ;)

The reason why I said that I'd like to replace Enhancement and then move on to Testing is because concern was being expressed over it being too vague to be thematic. I'm personally fine with Neural Enhancement, but it didn't seem like it'd pass muster. That recent post was just saying that I can be outvoted on Neural Stimulator, so don't worry, we're all on the same page. :lol:

Astroking112
October 15th, 2019, 10:18 PM
Is anyone opposed to taking a quick poll of our personal preferences for the second power name to decide things? I don't mind being outvoted if the majority prefers the stimulant reference, and I'd like for us to get Tetsuo to Testing.

My personal list hasn't really changed:
1. Overload
2. Reprogram
3. Overclock
4. Neural Enhancement
5. Neurostim
6. Neural Stimulant/Neural Stimulator

Pumpkin_King
October 17th, 2019, 05:22 AM
I’m fine with Neurostim/Neurostimulant or Overclock.

Astroking112
October 17th, 2019, 02:04 PM
Alright, let's get this ironed out so we can move on to Testing. This is the best sense of opinions that I can get from the past couple of pages:

All Your Pie
Slight preference for Overload

Astroking112
Overload > Reprogram > Overclock > Neural Enhancement > Not Neurostim or any Stimulant variant

capsocrates
Neurostim > Neural Overclock > Neural Overload > Neural Hack

flameslayer93
Neurostim > Overload > Overclock > Not Neural Hack nor Reprogram

NecroBlade
Neural Enhancement > Neural Stimulator > Neural Hack

Pumpkin_King
Neurostim or Overclock

Please correct me if I'm not representing anything correctly or if I missed something.

It seems like a variant on either Overload or Overclock could be a fine compromise to me. Neurostim also has a good deal of support, but it looks like Overload/Overclock are relatively high on nearly everyone's list without having any major detractors so far.

All Your Pie
October 17th, 2019, 03:12 PM
Slight preference for Overload from me.

capsocrates
October 18th, 2019, 06:20 PM
Neural Overclock seems like the synergy of everyone's first and second favorite options.

Astroking112
October 18th, 2019, 07:15 PM
I have no qualm with proceeding with Neural Overclock. If everyone's fine with that, then I think that we're ready for Testing.

flameslayer93
October 18th, 2019, 07:46 PM
Sounds good to me. :up:

NecroBlade
October 19th, 2019, 03:44 PM
Not super excited by it, but if it works better for the group it goes in the OP. "Overclock" reads slightly better to me, at least, because "Overload" sounds more like "oops, here are some negative consequences to something".

Pumpkin_King
October 19th, 2019, 06:28 PM
Neural Overclock sounds better. I’ll still always prefer Neurostim.

Astroking112
October 20th, 2019, 12:34 AM
Okay, if we're somewhat settled on Overclock, is anyone opposed to formally moving on to Testing?

Pumpkin_King
October 20th, 2019, 02:09 AM
None here.

capsocrates
October 21st, 2019, 11:16 AM
We're settled on Neural Overclock, yes?

Astroking112
October 21st, 2019, 11:27 AM
We're settled on Neural Overclock, yes?

No complaints from me. I just used Overclock because I'm fine with any suitable adjective.

capsocrates
October 21st, 2019, 12:24 PM
Okay. Let's put Neural Overclock in the OP.

NecroBlade
October 27th, 2019, 09:49 AM
Okay. Let's put Neural Overclock in the OP.
It's in.

Okay, if we're somewhat settled on Overclock, is anyone opposed to formally moving on to Testing?
If this is a vote, I'm a yea.

capsocrates
October 27th, 2019, 03:01 PM
I like what we have and I'm ready to send it to playtestig.

flameslayer93
October 27th, 2019, 03:30 PM
:up: to send to playtesting. I’m excited :)

Scytale
October 28th, 2019, 02:44 PM
Woah, woah, this hasn't passed Editing yet.

flameslayer93
October 28th, 2019, 02:49 PM
Woah, woah, this hasn't passed Editing yet.

Then :up: to send back to editing.

Pumpkin_King
October 29th, 2019, 04:13 AM
Oops. Yeah, editing.

NecroBlade
November 8th, 2019, 09:55 AM
My bad, guys. OP still says Editing, though.

Pumpkin_King
November 8th, 2019, 02:10 PM
I think he's wobbled back and forth. We good to send him on then? Yeah for me.

Astroking112
November 12th, 2019, 01:54 PM
I'm a little confused on where we are right here, since I don't think that we ever left Editing while deciding on a power name. In case we are waiting on a vote to return to Editing, count me as a YEA.

Looking at the previous checklist, it looks like we might still need an Enslave ruling for some of the corner cases such as Overextend Attack, though I'm not sure if that's something that we're covering here.

Scytale
November 13th, 2019, 05:24 PM
Looks like the only change is the name of the first power. Note again my wording changes.

NEURAL ENHANCEMENT
Before attacking with Tetsuo Tyrell, you may place a wound marker on this Army Card to add 2 to his Attack value.

MIND JACK 13
When revealing an Order Marker on Tetsuo Tyrell, after taking Tetsuo Tyrell's turn, if he inflicted one or more wounds on a Unique Hero with his normal attack this turn but did not destroy it, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, take temporary control of the Hero he attacked and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to its previous owner. All Order Markers that were on the figure's Army Card will stay on the Army Card.
General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? N/A

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, Tyrell could not use either Neural Enhancement or Mind Jack. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording?

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? Tyrell could use Neural Enhancement when attacking a DO. Mind Jack cannot work on DOs because they are not Unique Heroes.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? No

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No, the Mind Jack turn takes place after Tyrell's turn.

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? Yes If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? Mystic Sacrifice could be used to increase the Mind Jack roll. If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? Queen of Thieves could be used to increase the Mind Jack roll. If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy?

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? Yes, but Mind Jack is safely limited to wounds inflicted by Tyrell's normal attack.

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? Yes, even if Tyrell is killed during a Mind Jack turn, control would still return to the previous owner. If so, is that clearly worded? No, but it's existing wording used on Enslave, so any rulings that affect that would affect this power as well.

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? N/A

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? No If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Both powers are clearly optional.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? Nothing special.

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Neural Overclock is not a particularly reusable name for a generic power, but we decided to keep it.

22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Yes Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc.


Capitalization Checklist:

Order Marker
normal attack
Army Card
wound
wound marker
Unique
Hero
Attack value


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. Human is singular.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. Neuromancer is singular.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "Tyrell's" is correct.

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. N/A


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? The order marker language on Mind Jack prevents turn-taking loops with Mind Jack. When Enslaved/Moon Frenzied, the temporary owner could kill Tyrell using Neural Enhancement.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? Nothing special.


Normal Attack Power Checklist:

1. Is it dependent on the type of space the target(s) is on? No If so, does it work clearly with double-spaced figures and destructible objects?

2. Does it affect targeting? No If so, how does it interact with Smoke Powder, Tribal Protection, Combat Challenge, Opportunity Strike, Quick Draw, and Façade?

3. How does it interact with Hard Targets? Nothing special.

4. How does it interact with Aura of Despair? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Marked for Destruction? N/A

6. How does it interact with Vanish/Spider-Sense X/Spidey-Sense X/Disappearing Ninja/Hide in Darkness/Fleet Footed/Flutter? Nothing special.

7. How does it interact with Mask of Terror? Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with Ring of Protection? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with One Shield Defense? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Tough/Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? Nothing special.

11. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Nothing special.

12. How does it interact with Defensive Agility/Stealth Dodge/Nature's Protection/Acrobatic? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Gift of the Empress Aura? Nothing special.

14. How does it interact with Counter Strike/Evil Eye Defense/Evil Eye Protection? Nothing special.

15. How does it interact with Evil Eye Glare? Nothing special.

16. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

17. How does it interact with Upgrade? Nothing special.

18. How does it interact with Stealth Armor/Sacred Band Defy Death/etc? Nothing special.

19. How does it interact with Temporal Jump? Nothing special.

20. How does it interact with Cell Divide? Nothing special.

21. How does it interact with Exoskeleton/Redundant Systems? Nothing special.

22. How does it interact with Expendable Rabble? Nothing special.

23. How does it interact with Purple Heart? If Varan uses Purple Heart to absorb wounds from Tyrell attacking another figure, Tyrell could not use Mind Jack to take control of Varan because the wounds were not inflicted by the attack.

24. How does it interact with Dying Swipe/Rupture? Nothing special.

25. How does it interact with Teleport Reinforcements? Nothing special.

26. How does it interact with Eternal War? Nothing special.

27. How does it interact with Scatter and Scurry? Nothing special.

28. How does it interact with Defensive Vault? Nothing special.


Bonus/Replacement Turn Power (e.g. Bonding) Checklist:

1. Does it create bonding chains/loops? No, the order marker language on Mind Jack prevents any such loops. At least it doesn't introduce any more than Enslave.

2. Should it have "after revealing an Order Marker" language? It does.

3. Does the power inadvertently allow the same unit to take multiple turns? No, Mind Jack must be used on another figure.

4. Does it allow squad figures to take a turn? No If so, does it divide up a squad so that only some members of the squad can activate?


End of Turn Power Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Cold Healing/Cold Regenerate/Regenerate? I think these powers could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

2. How does it interact with Frenzy? I think Frenzy could still be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

3. How does it interact with Hyper Speed? I think Hyper Speed could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

4. How does it interact with Jandar's Dispatch? I think Jandar's Dispatch could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

5. How does it interact with Overextend Attack? I think Overextend Attack could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

6. How does it interact with Stab in the Back? I think Stab in the Back would happen after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not entirely sure. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

7. How does it interact with Summon the Rechets of Bogdan? I think Summon the Rechets of Bodgan could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

8. How does it interact with War Cry/Guerrilla Tactics? I think these powers could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

9. How does it interact with Divine Mission/Labors? I think there powers could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

10. How does it interact with Undead Legion/Flocking? N/A

11. How does it interact with Enslave/Command Dispatch/Heavy Support Command Beacon? These powers could not be used during a Mind Jack turn, nor vice versa.

12. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

13. How does it interact with Growing Heat? I think Growing Heat could be used after a Mind Jack turn, but I'm not sure by who. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

14. How does it interact with Furious Wrath? The would from Furious Wrath would still occur at the end of a Mind Jack turn.

15. How does it interact with Marching Orders? N/A

16. How does it interact with Enraged? N/A

17. How does it interact with Hunting Party? I think Hunting Party could be used after a Mind Jack turn. That would be covered by any Enslave Ruling.

19. How does it interact with Piercing Scream? N/A

NecroBlade
November 17th, 2019, 02:14 PM
OP is up to date. Looks like we didn't break anything in editing. :)

Scytale
November 17th, 2019, 10:18 PM
OP is up to date. Looks like we didn't break anything in editing. :)
Great, I believe this is ready to move on. Please add a link to the Editing Checklist (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2332678#post2332678) in the OP.

Astroking112
November 18th, 2019, 07:21 PM
I'm excited to enter testing here. :)

According to the process, we're ready to enter Testing immediately after a unit passes the Editing Checklist. NecroBlade, could you update the title of the thread to reflect this?

NecroBlade
November 19th, 2019, 10:32 AM
Got 'em.

Astroking112
November 23rd, 2019, 03:15 AM
Managed to get some people over for some silly fun in a 3-player drafting event. I created two different pools of 100-point standalone-ish units to make the decision process easier for some new players, but threw in Tetsuo to see how he felt in this environment.

Played on a Custom 3-Player Map
Objective: Kill the Player to Your Left
400 Points
No Glyphs

Picture of Map:
https://i.imgur.com/94ZjIrX.jpg

Astro: Tetsuo Tyrell, Sentinels of Grax, Elite Onyx Vipers, Rujin (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2187237#post2187237)
Trying to kill Nathan

Nathan: Wyvern, Mind Flayer Mastermind, Deathstalkers, Ogre Pulverizer
Trying to kill Nick

Nick: Syvarris, Agent Carr, Kozuke Samurai, Masha Shingai (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2246715&postcount=207)
Trying to kill Astro

SURVIVING:
Rujin (unwounded), 2x Sentinels of Grax, 2x Elite Onyx Vipers
Masha Shingai (unwounded)

GAME SUMMARY:
Nick went after me early on with Syvarris and Agent Carr, but Rujin healed away any damage that they dealt. Tetsuo came out to try and steal some turns with them, but he failed on Agent Carr and finished off Syvarris in one blow. After realizing that I had almost finished off Nick altogether, I switched my tactics to attacking Nathan with my Elite Onyx Vipers. Both of them were already pretty crippled thanks to some whiffs from Nathan and Counter Strike, so I was able to finish Nathan off and win the game.

TETSUO USAGE:
(3/3) attack against (0/2) defense from a wounded Syvarris, killing him before Mind Jack had a chance.
He then took 4 wounds from Agent Carr after whiffing defense.
I decided to use Neural Overclock next turn from height against Agent Carr, dealing 3 wounds to him but failing the Mind Jack roll with a 4 on the D20.
Tetsuo died the next turn to Agent Carr’s Sword of Reckoning.

THOUGHTS:
He got a lucky shot in against Syvarris (too lucky :headshake:) and dealt good damage overall, but he went out like a candle as soon as Nick stopped focusing on Rujin. The 4 range definitely requires him to be in a lot of danger with that 2 defense, so sometimes he's just going to fall flat on his face.

I liked the feeling of Neural Overclock. While the wound is a tough penalty, he's fragile enough that you really want to consider that choice before he potentially dies the next turn.

Astroking112
November 23rd, 2019, 03:25 AM
Played on the same map
Objective: Kill the Player to Your Left
400 Points
No Glyphs

Astro: Masha Shingai (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2246715&postcount=207), Kozuke Samurai, Agent Carr, Tetsuo Tyrell
Trying to kill Nathan

Nathan: Rujin (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2187237#post2187237), Syvarris, Deathstalkers, Wyvern
Trying to kill Nick

Nick: Ogre Pulverizer, Mind Flayer Mastermind, Elite Onyx Vipers, Sentinels of Grax
Trying to kill Astro

GAME SUMMARY:
My Kozuke got blasted by Syvarris on their approach, but one managed to engage him the next turn. Nathan then decided to try to stall the game by swiping away my Kozuke and protecting him from Nick, so that I couldn’t die before Nick did. Meanwhile, Nathan advanced Rujin and his Deathstalkers through the swamp to assassinate the Ogre Pulverizer.

While this was going on, Nick rushed my developing army with his Elite Onyx Vipers. Agent Carr and Masha managed to take them down, but the Sentinels of Grax finished off Masha and left me with just Agent Carr and Tetsuo Tyrell. Tetsuo went on to keep overclocking himself and failing to wound the Mind Flayer until he died, but Agent Carr went on a valiant last hurrah to one-shot the fleeing Wyvern. Nathan managed to get to the Mind Flayer with his last Deathstalker, though, landing the kill for the win.

SURVIVING:
1x Deathstalker (Nathan’s win)
1x Kozuke Samurai, Agent Carr (1 wound)

TETSUO USAGE:
Chose to not use Neural Overclock for an attack against a Sentinel, but it was blocked.
Used Overclock to attack the Mind Flayer. (2/5) against (3/5), so blocked.
Overclocked again against the Mind Flayer. (2/5) against (2/4).
(3/4) Mind Flayer struck back against Tetsuo’s (0/2) defense, bringing him to 1 life left. No more Overclocks at this point.
(2/3) attack against Mind Flayer’s (2/4) defense.
(2/4) Mind Flayer against Tetsuo’s (0/2) defense, finishing him off.

Overall, Tetsuo was 0/0 for Mind Jack 13 and dealt no damage this game. He dealt 2 of the wounds to himself through Overclock. Really just a poor showing for him altogether; although Mind Jacking the Mind Flayer wouldn't have been a huge get for my army, not dealing any damage to it at all was pretty unfortunate.

flameslayer93
November 23rd, 2019, 09:59 AM
Swingy is fun. Good tests Astro. :up:

Pumpkin_King
November 23rd, 2019, 04:00 PM
I'd like to bring up again the "combat die to give a wound chance" version of OVerclock, just to put it on the back burner in case he feels too punishing.

Astroking112
November 23rd, 2019, 04:26 PM
I'd like to bring up again the "combat die to give a wound chance" version of OVerclock, just to put it on the back burner in case he feels too punishing.

I did consider what it would feel like while playing the game, but I'd like to see more games (especially some conventional ones) before worrying about him falling flat in one of the games here. I'm also concerned that making it an attack die rather than a guaranteed wound just makes the choice too easy--if it was only a 50% chance of a wound and he's this fragile, I'm pretty sure that I'd have used it every turn here.

The bigger hinderance in these games was honestly the 4 range (especially since he wants to target very specific units rather than just any squaddie). If we're looking at buffs down the road, adding a range boost to Neural Enhancement would be a solid thing to consider while keeping the Overclock tension.

NecroBlade
November 24th, 2019, 08:45 AM
If we're looking at buffs down the road, adding a range boost to Neural Enhancement would be a solid thing to consider while keeping the Overclock tension.

I like this solution. Need to see him actually Jack something first, though, to see how big a bonus that is versus just being a self-damaging 100-point Hero.

flameslayer93
November 24th, 2019, 09:06 AM
I mean, in a purely BS game I did with him, he threw a ~70 point Fairy into lava. That’s definitely worth something.

All Your Pie
December 7th, 2019, 06:07 PM
Played on Ruins of Rennoc.
Army 1: Laglor, Gorillitroopers x2, Tetsuo Tyrell (430)
vs.
Army 2: Ulginesh, Haduc, Jorhdawn, Arkmer, Kyntela, Otonashi (430)

Summary: After a few rounds of careful positioning, Tyrell won initiative and made a Overclock and Laglor-boosted shot at Jorhdawn. With one wound and an Overclock roll of 13, he dunked her into lava. After blocking an attack from Haduc, he boosted again for another wound but failed the Mind Jack roll. After that, elevated shots from Arkmer and Haduc dropped him.

After that, Laglor and the Troopers had the advantage. With no SA to break through tough, the Elves got whittled down.

Overclock was used twice, on both of Tyrell's attacks. One dealt 1 wound to a 2D Jorhdawn and the other dealt 1 wound to a 4D plus autoshield Haduc. Mind Jack went 1/2, and was used to walk Jorhdawn into molten lava.

Thoughts: This was more or less an ideal situation for Tyrell. Even so, he only slightly exceeded his point value. That said, he was able to eliminate exactly who he needed to in order to position his army favorably. If the Mind Jack on Haduc had succeeded, he would have vastly overperformed.

Naturally, he's a little scary with Laglor, but so are a lot of things. Otherwise, 4 range is definitely tough to work with. I'd need more convincing to see it bumped, but if we do want to increase it I'd rather just have it at 5 by default as opposed to getting a buff from Overclock. Another fun possibility would be to allow Tyrell to attack without clear sight if he uses Overclock, though the AotP terrain might not have enough LoS blockers to make that worthwhile.

The Long eared bat
December 8th, 2019, 11:15 AM
Map: Fairhaven by Flash19
Points: 400
Glyphs: Wannok, Defense +1

Team 1: Pyria, Deadeye Dan, 2x Ashra, 2x Death knights
Team 2: Tetsuo Tyrell, Feral Troll, 2x stingers, 2x rats

Game report: Pyria+Dks moved out first met by Rats+stingers. Rat took Wannok which did 2 wounds on Dan. After round 2 5 rats and 4 stingers dead. This was due to Team 2 reaching the other team first Dks rolling 3/5 defense regularly and stingers rolling terrible attack. Pyria was used aggressively taking out many units with her special attack and risking disengaging and the death of Dks in the process which payed off due to their defense rolls. Pyria killed 1 rat with a normal attack and rolled 3/4 for Twin Flamethrowers special attack 5 times apart from 1 attack of 2!!! Testuo was brought in to deal with the on fire Pyria. He used Neural Overclock twice first attacked 4/5 on Pyria did 2 wounds. Then a second time 2/5 resulting in 1 wound on Pyria. Both times failed Mind Jack. Tyrell was soon dealt with by Pyria. She was finished by Feral Troll. However the game was already won. Troll + Otonashi never going to bet Ashra.

Units that survived: 1 life Dan, 5 Ashra, 1 Dk.

How did tested unit do?: Helped to kill Pyria, but the self wounding contributed to his death. It also really didn't help that Mind Jack failed every time, however if he had been successful he could of rushed Pyria on the road back to her start zone and do some damage.

The Long eared bat
December 8th, 2019, 11:35 AM
Map: Fairhaven by Flash19
Points: 400
Glyphs: Wannok, Defense +1

Team 1: Pyria, Deadeye Dan, 2x Ashra, 2x Death knights
Team 2: Tetsuo Tyrell, Feral Troll, 2x stingers, 2x rats

Game report: Otonashi used tricky speed to slow down Pyria+Dks. Which gave time for Tyrell to move up and attacked his own Feral Troll doing 1 wound, however he got Mind Jack which was used to move the Troll up and healed. Pyria attacked with special 2/4 and did 1 wound on Tyrell and killed an advancing stinger. Her other 2 attack were blanks which proved fatal. Pyria was killed by Tyrell and stingers. After that rats and stingers dominated the map taking both glyphs. Stingers rolled well and easily picked of Ashra+Dan.

Units that survived: (Tyrell 4 lives left), 5 rats, 4 stingers

How did tested unit do?: Tyrell attempted a non overclocked attack on Pyria which did 1 wound, but Mind Jack failed. The second attack was an Overclock which did 3 wounds on Pyria again no Mind Jack. The only Mind Jack was used on the Feral Troll which was useful in tying down Pryria and DKs.

NecroBlade
December 8th, 2019, 02:52 PM
Another fun possibility would be to allow Tyrell to attack without clear sight if he uses Overclock, though the AotP terrain might not have enough LoS blockers to make that worthwhile.

That strikes me as a lot less desirable than something simpler like +2 Range. So far he seems to be struggling at the moment to be anything other than be a Ranged Hero. I still lean toward the Range boost as a way to allow him to get at more important targets (so when Mind Jack does hit, it's more meaningful) and keep himself a little safer (since he'll be contributing to his own demise at the same time).

flameslayer93
February 23rd, 2020, 09:53 PM
Map: Volcanic Swampy Jungle homebrew map, notably it has two spots where dragon-sized lava dunking is an option.

Glyphs:
Defense +1 and AotP Healing.

Armies:
Tetsuo
Laglor
Skahen
Carr
Command Courier x2

Vs

Nilfheim
Greenscales x3
Andask

I chose these armies because I figured they both had a reasonable shot at being used in competitive play and because I wanted to see Tetsuo compete against a big bad. Spoiler: He failed miserably.

Tina led her lizard army into the jungle boosted swamp water while I tried to get some preliminary shots off with Laglor. He didn’t do anything. Nilfy got close, so I pulled out T-man. After overloading I got 2 wounds in on Nilfy and rolled a 12. Feels bad man. Tina’s initial batch of greenscales were indestructible too.

Soon the dragon got really angry and wounded and killed my agents quickly. The barrage of attacks from boosted greenscales didn’t help my figures survive. I lost pretty quickly after Carr died (who died the turn after Tetsuo did).

On the plus side, I did a total of 5 wounds to Nilfy. Andddd that was about it.

All Your Pie
February 23rd, 2020, 10:36 PM
Honestly, I feel like we're in a pretty good place here. I'd be happy to consider a buff to 5 range base but otherwise I think we've got a good handle on this design.

Pumpkin_King
February 23rd, 2020, 10:49 PM
I dunno, I'm seeing that Jack doesn't really happen as often as I'd (and aybe we) want.

All Your Pie
February 23rd, 2020, 11:03 PM
Mind Jack is currently 2/9 in testing as far as I can tell, so it's performing slightly below average in a purely statistical sense. That's not accounting for the occasional attack where Tetsuo kills his target outright, denying a chance to control them.

That does inspire an idea--a version of Mind Jack that lets Tetsuo take a turn with a hero he wounds enough to destroy before removing them for the battlefield. It's a little soulguide-y but I'd happily reduce or eliminate the d20 roll with that restriction. Would need an editing pass though, and I'm also happy with iterating on what we have now.

5 range does mean more flexibility in attacks, but are you looking to consider dropping the roll or implementing a chance at not taking a wound from Overclock?

Pumpkin_King
February 23rd, 2020, 11:09 PM
That does inspire an idea--a version of Mind Jack that lets Tetsuo take a turn with a hero he wounds enough to destroy before removing them for the battlefield. It's a little soulguide-y but I'd happily reduce or eliminate the d20 roll with that restriction. Would need an editing pass though, and I'm also happy with iterating on what we have now.


This would be incredible.



My concerns thus far have been the "fun" part of Tetsuo not activating often often, having two different requirements. Allowing him to Jack a wounded or killed hero would be great and go a long way towards my concerns.

Pumpkin_King
February 23rd, 2020, 11:11 PM
5 range does mean more flexibility in attacks, but are you looking to consider dropping the roll or implementing a chance at not taking a wound from Overclock?


I'd like either, yes, a wound chance or ideally straight up making Jack into a renamed Enslave, maybe with a slightly higher chance to activate because he's a unique hero.

Astroking112
February 27th, 2020, 04:57 PM
I'm concerned about the 4 range from my tests and what I've seen so far. I'm not ready to push for a change just yet, but it's something that has popped up in multiple scenarios and really limits his potential.

Letting him Mind Jack destroyed heroes sounds fun, but I'm not sure how much trouble that would be for Editing and keeping the design pretty simple. Assuming that we drop the D20 roll and only have Mind Jack activate on successful destruction, I could see it still working with the current direction, though.

Pumpkin_King
February 27th, 2020, 07:11 PM
An idea: can we get away with mind Jack activating every time he deals a wound to a hero? And have it still activate even if that wound destroys the hero. At the end of his turn, if he placed a wound on a hero with his normal attack, you may take a turn with that hero, etc.

flameslayer93
February 27th, 2020, 07:14 PM
An idea: can we get away with mind Jack activating every time he deals a wound to a hero? And have it still activate even if that wound destroys the hero. At the end of his turn, if he placed a wound on a hero with his normal attack, you may take a turn with that hero, etc.

Lava dunking, my friend. Hard no from me.

Pumpkin_King
February 27th, 2020, 07:42 PM
There's still a chance-based system in play. IT's not like he gets to do it every time he attacks.

All Your Pie
February 27th, 2020, 07:58 PM
I say we take a chisel to this before reaching for a hammer.

If we're changing something, let's start at 5 range. I'm perfectly happy to do that now rather than getting more tests at 4 range.

Pumpkin_King
February 27th, 2020, 08:17 PM
I'm willing to wait for some tests with 5 range but I remain convicted that two separate rolls is too clunky, too complicated, and too low a chance of it activating. That's not a problem another range point will fix.

All Your Pie
February 28th, 2020, 05:54 PM
I'm not particularly interested in making an Enslave-type effect much more likely to occur than it is for the Mindflayer. In that sense, I think we're in a good place here. Mind Jack being a cool, swingy ability is precisely the reason why it shouldn't be triggering all the time. Mindshackle isn't any less memorable or cool because it only has a 5% chance of working.

That said, I can understand that spending a turn on Tetsuo, wounding him to buff his attack, dealing damage, and then failing on the role is a frustrating play experience. I'm willing to hear suggestions on how to change that loop. A possibility would be to eliminate Overclock entirely, and allow Tetsuo to automatically Mind Jack any unit he wounds without destroying.

The probabilities for that do spook me a little, though. 50% chance of wounding a 3D figure, around 62% chance of wounding a 2D one. This change wound give Mind Jack a better chance of working than Enslave's 20% all the way up through attacks on 6D targets (25% chance).

If we reduce it to 2 attack, that puts it at around a 44% against 2D, 33% against 3, and 25% against 4, with worse chances than Enslave at all higher defense values. This I'm a lot more comfortable with, especially since it's much easier to boost an attack value than it is to boost Enslave and the odds rise much more in your favor from 2 to 3 A than from a +1 on the D20.

Could still use some input from other pod members on if they want changes here, or if they have any other suggestions on how to tweak these dials. I would still be happy to leave the design mostly as is, personally.

Pumpkin_King
February 28th, 2020, 06:12 PM
I'll say that - and it's been very obvious so far - I'm mainly the one bringing up concerns about Mind Jack. If I'm alone in that, I'll accept that I'm outvoted, but as AYP mentioned I think two distinct, unrelated rolls (and thus two chances for failure) is the core of my concerns with him. I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

Astroking112
February 28th, 2020, 06:52 PM
I say we take a chisel to this before reaching for a hammer.

If we're changing something, let's start at 5 range. I'm perfectly happy to do that now rather than getting more tests at 4 range.

I completely agree. It's unfortunate that bumping up to 5 range loses the 6-5-4-3-2-1 aesthetic on the card, but everything that I've seen so far implies that the extra range will help a lot. If there aren't any major complaints, then I'd be good with us moving to 5 range for the next few tests, at least.

I'm not particularly interested in making an Enslave-type effect much more likely to occur than it is for the Mindflayer. In that sense, I think we're in a good place here. Mind Jack being a cool, swingy ability is precisely the reason why it shouldn't be triggering all the time. Mindshackle isn't any less memorable or cool because it only has a 5% chance of working.

That said, I can understand that spending a turn on Tetsuo, wounding him to buff his attack, dealing damage, and then failing on the role is a frustrating play experience. I'm willing to hear suggestions on how to change that loop. A possibility would be to eliminate Overclock entirely, and allow Tetsuo to automatically Mind Jack any unit he wounds without destroying.

The probabilities for that do spook me a little, though. 50% chance of wounding a 3D figure, around 62% chance of wounding a 2D one. This change wound give Mind Jack a better chance of working than Enslave's 20% all the way up through attacks on 6D targets (25% chance).

I could see us redesigning Mind Jack to activate on destroyed heroes, but letting it activate after any wound seems absolutely bonkers to me. It makes him more one-dimensional by removing the decision behind Overclocking, it makes him even swingier than he is, and it'd necessitate a large price bump to account for how many ways there are to exploit turn stealing, especially if it's somewhat reliable. That's not even taking into consideration how he can essentially turn certain match-ups on lava maps into an automatic win, or how well he'll fit in with a good screen to keep him safe.

One of the balancing factors so far is that the stolen turn isn't guaranteed, and it requires placing him in a lot of danger to get that chance (both with Overclock and his short range). There's simply too much potential in stealing turns for me to feel comfortable at all with making the chances so high. Let's try smoothing him out a bit with 5 range to ease his bad situations first before making such a drastic change.

If we reduce it to 2 attack, that puts it at around a 44% against 2D, 33% against 3, and 25% against 4, with worse chances than Enslave at all higher defense values. This I'm a lot more comfortable with, especially since it's much easier to boost an attack value than it is to boost Enslave and the odds rise much more in your favor from 2 to 3 A than from a +1 on the D20.

Could still use some input from other pod members on if they want changes here, or if they have any other suggestions on how to tweak these dials. I would still be happy to leave the design mostly as is, personally.

Reducing it to 2 attack only exacerbates the problem, IMO. As it stands, Tetsuo still has neat potential in that he can throw 5 dice from range and deal a good amount of damage, even if he's inconsistent. If all he has is a single attack of 2, then he becomes completely reliant on Mind Jack to find any value, more frustrating to play given how easy it is to whiff, and generally more frustrating. It reminds me of Deadeye Dan, which is an extreme of swinginess that I don't particularly care to revisit.

I'll say that - and it's been very obvious so far - I'm mainly the one bringing up concerns about Mind Jack. If I'm alone in that, I'll accept that I'm outvoted, but as AYP mentioned I think two distinct, unrelated rolls (and thus two chances for failure) is the core of my concerns with him. I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

What bothers you about it? They are two distinct powers/mechanics that have a nice interplay between them. I couldn't see rolling them into the same power (essentially just reusing Enslave) conveying the same theme or playstyle without feeling hackneyed, and it feels very much like a classic HeroScape design from my experiences (albeit one of the swingy ones, which VC generally strays away from).

If it's just the two chances for failure baked into Mind Jack that bothers you, then I'm a bit confused. You've advocated changing Overclock to a wound chance over an automatic wound for a while, which I think exacerbates the problem significantly (it suddenly becomes "take a chance to boost my chance to take a chance"). Two separate types of rolls (an attack and a power effect), however, isn't anything that special from what we've seen before.

In fact, having a conditional effect on a successful wound is fairly common in HeroScape: Poison Weapons, Sujoah's Special Attack, Mortal Strike, and more have all displayed similar mechanics building on top of attack rolls before. If it's thematically appropriate and is a mechanic that's too powerful to activate on any wound but still needs a wound to work, then I don't see any problem with it.

Pumpkin_King
February 28th, 2020, 07:11 PM
Hacking up your post a little here AK, hope you don't mind.



I'll say that - and it's been very obvious so far - I'm mainly the one bringing up concerns about Mind Jack. If I'm alone in that, I'll accept that I'm outvoted, but as AYP mentioned I think two distinct, unrelated rolls (and thus two chances for failure) is the core of my concerns with him. I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

What bothers you about it? They are two distinct powers/mechanics that have a nice interplay between them. I couldn't see rolling them into the same power (essentially just reusing Enslave) conveying the same theme or playstyle without feeling hackneyed, and it feels very much like a classic HeroScape design from my experiences (albeit one of the swingy ones, which VC generally strays away from).


In fact, having a conditional effect on a successful wound is fairly common in HeroScape: Poison Weapons, Sujoah's Special Attack, Mortal Strike, and more have all displayed similar mechanics building on top of attack rolls before. If it's thematically appropriate and is a mechanic that's too powerful to activate on any wound but still needs a wound to work, then I don't see any problem with it.


I think it's the two chances for failure. Bringing up abilities like that does make me pause, but only for a moment - "d20 to cause extra wounds" feels fundamentally different than temporary control. I guess because it's "a chance an extra good thing happens" rather than "two rolls to have the main draw and mechanic of the unit even activate." It'd be like Mindshackle being on an 18-20 but NGS has to wound first. It feels wrong.



If it's just the two chances for failure baked into Mind Jack that bothers you, then I'm a bit confused. You've advocated changing Overclock to a wound chance over an automatic wound for a while, which I think exacerbates the problem significantly (it suddenly becomes "take a chance to boost my chance to take a chance"). Two separate types of rolls (an attack and a power effect), however, isn't anything that special from what we've seen before.



You're right, and I've gone back and forth on it myself. I think I drifted from believing that the autowound would make him too risky to believing that the core issue was the chance of Mind Jack activating at all, or accurately, the feeling/perception that it was unlikely due to two failure chances.

I have no doubts that, right now, against a 3D unit, the change for Jack is the same or higher than Enslave. I trust you guys did the math. I just think it's a clunky and inferior option to just one success/failure check.


Again, if I'm outvoted, I'll accept it and move on. This is me dying on the hill, so to speak.

flameslayer93
February 29th, 2020, 03:09 PM
Turn stealing is strong in general. Relative infrequency is not a bad thing, especially on someone this swingy. And besides, Mindjack isn’t his only schtick. I can reasonably see the OG designers making this guy with just overclock. Throwing 5 dice at range is a neat perk.

At 2A its closer to acceptable for guarenteed jacks, but 3A will be an automatic no vote for me.

capsocrates
March 1st, 2020, 12:43 AM
We honestly haven't had that many playtests yet. Let's get a few more from a few people before we go looking to overhaul the design

NecroBlade
March 1st, 2020, 11:59 AM
I'd also prefer to do a little more testing and also not lose the 6-5-4-3-2-1 aesthetic. I think a great solution would be allowing Overclock to also add Range. Maybe 2R/2A or 3R/1A (since it'd also be more likely he could apply height). This would allow him to play a little safer, like attempting the Mind Jack from behind a screen, which should help his chances at being successful every now and then.

Owlman
March 5th, 2020, 08:39 PM
I love his design so far!

I was encouraged to throw out some idea's for figures being designed, so I was thinking, has anyone thought about using the Illusion figures with him? It'd be super cool to give him a once-per-game ability to cast 1-3 illusions within 3 spaces or something, making figures who are adjacent to them have to attack only them or something along those lines...?

Or better yet, give him the ability to switch places with an Illusion within 3-4 spaces, and not take a leaving engagement attack while doing so? Like a mini Tul-Bak-Ra?

Granted it may not be a good idea to make him too complicated, but still...thoughts?

Pumpkin_King
March 5th, 2020, 08:53 PM
Great minds think alike - I'm almost certain that was the direction we were going with the more mage-like Jace figure, an archmage who specializes in the illusions, and a squad of illusions who can back up any archmage (but of course work better with "Jace")

This one here looks a little "cyberpunk" so we were going to a sci-fi angle where we could.

Owlman
March 6th, 2020, 11:22 AM
Great minds think alike - I'm almost certain that was the direction we were going with the more mage-like Jace figure, an archmage who specializes in the illusions, and a squad of illusions who can back up any archmage (but of course work better with "Jace")

This one here looks a little "cyberpunk" so we were going to a sci-fi angle where we could.

Cool. I guess he will be in a future pod. I'll do some designing today and see if I can make him work with the Illusions.