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Astroking112
April 9th, 2019, 12:24 PM
This is likely going to be a longer post, but it's touching on a subject that I think is very important to the community here, and it doesn't seem like it's been fully addressed yet.

As I'm sure that most Heroscapers are aware, WotC made a game that shares many of the same bones with HeroScape in Arena of the Planeswalkers. Throughout three separate releases, they created many miniatures on bases, with 12 prepainted Planeswalker sculpts and approximately 60 unpainted sculpts. Of these unpainted sculpts, there are many that can still work for HeroScape with some imagination, such as making the translucent blue squads either water elementals or illusions, clearly making the translucent red squads fire elementals, or making any of the plain black sculpts living shadows. All in all, there is a lot of potential here, despite the fact that most of the sculpts are unpainted.

By all accounts, this seems like a perfect opportunity for the Valhalla Customs community (including both C3V and SoV submitters) to make compatible HeroScape designs. However, outside of some brief Pre-SoV stints and the recent C3V announcement that the Pummelroot Elementals (one of the unpainted green squads) are a proxy for an upcoming unit, we've seen no indication of any plans for this set.

If there are no plans already to utilize the three boxes beyond this, then I believe that this is a major missed opportunity. This post is dedicated to why.

Just to keep everything clear, I'd like to state that I am not a member of C3V and am not privy to their private conversations. It is fully possible that they are already making plans that contradict everything that I am about to say, but I feel the need to bring up the matter nonetheless. At the very least, I hope that this will prompt more internal discussion over the matter.

Why should Arena of the Planeswalkers be used?
I think that this is a fairly clear question, but one worth addressing. One of the struggles for VC currently is the need to find suitable miniatures. There are many problems with this, from finding things that will be cheap and readily available for as long as possible to getting sculpts and realizing that the scale or size simply doesn't fit with HeroScape.

Here, we have over 70 miniatures that not only are the perfect scale, but come pre-based and are all included in the same box. This last part is especially important in my eyes, as a big inhibitor for people to get into C3V is the need to individually track down each sculpt that they like and then purchase them from wherever they can find. Here, we have an abundance of good miniatures that can easily be acquired.

In addition to this, the sets are all currently cheap. Because the game was recently quietly discontinued, it's not too unreasonable to pick up the entire collection for under $30, which makes now the ideal time to announce that they will all be used. It shouldn't be a major problem since many Heroscapers already own the game, but it would be best to commit to using the sets while everyone still has the chance to easily grab them.

However, even if we commit to using the three sets, there is a major question remaining:

What should be done with the sets?
This is probably the most controversial opinion that I'm going to express in this post, but I completely believe that the best course of action here is to make a VC Master Set out of the boxes.

While we could always go the normal piecemeal route of making multiple small expansions spread out over the course of a year, this is a complete collection spread out across just three boxes. It is quite possibly the easiest set of minis for any Heroscaper to get, and it is unlikely that someone will only get a handful of the miniatures without getting the rest.

These sets are quite frankly the most realistic option for any non-Heroscaper to get into the game. To anyone just starting a collection now, getting into HeroScape is a massive commitment that scares off many newer members of the community. Even if they would rather play HeroScape than Arena of the Planeswalkers, I know many people who simply cannot afford anything more than those three sets.

So why not use this to VC's advantage? Why not make this a realistic opportunity to get into C3V/SoV as well, thus making it much easier for the community to expand? Suddenly, anyone who buys Arena can at the very least try normal HeroScape, just by printing off some character cards. Friends who get introduced to the game can go online, order three simple boxes, and have their own compatible HeroScape collection ready for personal use. After they get more involved, they can keep an eye on upcoming VC designs and purchase any classic units that really stick out to them. As the price of HeroScape rises, we should be looking for additional ways to get people into the game wherever possible.

But why a Master Set?
Admittedly, this is largely a matter of presentation. Some might argue that the difference between a new wave and a big Master Set is minimal, so long as the units are eventually released, but I just can't agree there.

Valhalla Customs is currently standing at over 120 designs. We've seen waves 14-21, several large hero expansions, many SoV releases, and a new flagbearer all added at this point. Branding the Arena sets as a Master Set would not be for us, the people who already follow each C3V wave and SoV vote with interest.

It would be for everyone else. To someone who is not already acquainted with VC, it is becoming an increasingly daunting task to jump in. Where should they begin? Do they just look at the front page, with the most recent releases? Do they go back to the beginning with Wave 14? Maybe they should just click random units in the index until they find something that piques their interest? At this point, the sheer size of VC is becoming a prohibiting factor in its expansion.

Here in the Dallas community, for example, I have largely been the proponent of VC. At our local tournaments, I've pushed people to at least allow VC units, but a common thing that I've experienced is that my groups are the only ones who take them. I know several long-standing members of the community who simply aren't interested in VC, either because they don't have the time to read every card to find the ones that they like or because it simply isn't approachable anymore.

I think that this is a key area where we can learn from C3G. That project has an incredible number of designs at this point, and not too long ago I was interested in getting a better understanding of them. I briefly opened up the index and was promptly overwhelmed. Which Spider-Man should I be looking at? Where's Mysterio?

Luckily, I found out that they released an introduction set for people like me looking to get their toes wet. I immediately looked through The World's Finest, reading the scenarios and figures, had a good time, and got the sense of what they were about that I was looking for. If it wasn't for their Master Set, I likely would've only read about four cards from the project altogether, but by having a good introduction, I ended up delving much deeper into the archives.

We should be looking for a similar way to get people started, whether they're veterans or new players.

What makes the Arena sets so suited to a Master Set?
As I've elaborated on at length (sorry to everyone, I know that I can get a bit wordy at times :p), these three sets are the closest thing to a cohesive HeroScape package that we are likely to see ever again. They aren't all included in the same box, but it's pretty darn close. These boxes are more approachable for newcomers than anything else that C3V/SoV can ever release.

On top of this, they don't just include figures. No, they actually include 100% compatible HeroScape terrain and components, however little. We can use great figure boxes from D&D, Pathfinder, or any other game, but no other set can lay claim to being completely ready to play normal HeroScape with some design work.

The cardboard mats are admittedly a little ugly in comparison to normal terrain, but they will completely suffice for anyone who cannot afford to get terrain yet, or at least not without trying the game first. The unpainted sandstone tiles are bland, but they come with quite possibly the first realistic new terrain opportunity since cancellation:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUhpjTPUhaNC2Yiopi6r8gPiKPGt-0RqkZAHhokhBmwYGG3zTypw

The possibilities for these three Cryptolith towers are quite literally endless. They could be a new Destructible Object, finally giving us something other than the Fortress Door or Breakable Wall Section to destroy. They could add +1 move to all figures beginning within 2 spaces of them. They could shield adjacent figures from ranged attacks.

For a game so heavily praised for its terrain, it feels downright odd to me for a community project dedicated to expanding the game in the original designers' vision to ignore such an important opportunity. Any other type of terrain is much less realistic since it would require more effort to set up, but these things are just as easy to set up as the glaciers or evergreen trees, and they are an excellent opportunity to provide some creativity for map design.

So we have many great miniatures, a small amount of terrain (plus mats to ensure that it is at least playable on its own), and the dice needed to play the game. We're basically looking at the perfect opportunity to make a Valhalla Customs Master Set, which would reinvigorate the community and provide an excellent jumping in point.

How could this Master Set look?
Now, these sets do have their shortcomings. The vast majority of miniatures are unpainted, which can feel less impressive, and the cardboard terrain is practically necessary for people who can't afford to get into the game. Since each set is also based on Magic: The Gathering, we also can't see the sheer variety of units that HeroScape is known for.

However, look at the existing Master Sets. We'll never see something like Rise of the Valkyrie again, with its huge amount of terrain and great variety of units, but can the Arena sets not be compared to Swarm of the Marro and Battle for the Underdark? It already has more usable sculpts than we saw with the last officially released Master Set, and there is enough potential to get creative with basically everything else.

We could have a futuristic invasion with Vydar summoning deployable SoulBorg towers from Alpha Prime to represent the futuristic side of HeroScape, the arrival of some illusionists and their various conjurations, several fire elementals and some pheonixes, new vampires, more elves, a werewolf, some necromancers, living shadows, porcelain rhinos, and more. That level of variety is already rivaling Swarm of the Marro, and I'm sure that the creative community could do great things with such an opportunity.

If everything from the set were to be unique like Rise of the Valkyrie, then we would also have far less availability concerns in the future, and this would remain an excellent way for people to get into the game. Alternatively, we could make some common squads while the game is so cheap, taking full advantage of the availability and price while we can.

Beyond the figure designs, we could work on developing a handful of scenarios to create a true Master Set feel. Even if a small group of creators just posted the scenarios to their own threads, it would be easy to set up and get into without only relying on the tournament style of play. We could even do something similar to The World's Finest, where a scenario mixing the Arena sets with each Master Set is created.

All this is really to say that the possibilities are endless. The community has proven time and time again how inventive and creative they are, and I fully believe that we're capable of designing a complete Master Set to introduce people to this game that we've played for so long.

Conclusion
Finally, am I right? ;)

It is my belief that those three sets represent a massive opportunity not only for the HeroScape customs community, but for the game's community as a whole. Not only do they contain a large amount of suitable miniatures, but they are practically fully poised to being a complete set on their own that the player expands upon as they wish, just like the Master Sets that we saw before.

We've seen before how "larger" releases like Valkrill's Flagbearer (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/blog.php?b=2852#comments) can attract more people to take a look at C3V and SoV. We can keep releasing small expansions as long as we want, but creating something larger and less usual will get attention. More people will return if something so large and important to the community is released, and this set would be the perfect chance to keep them interested.

On top of all of this, creating a jumping-in point is becoming increasingly more important as the project's history grows. Luckily, the perfect one has literally fallen into our laps.

This opportunity cannot be understated. I hope that my rambling has prompted you to think about this if you have not already, and I deeply appreciate everyone who takes the time to read this post in its entirety.

EDIT:
After lots of discussion in this thread, NecroBlade put up an excellent introduction post to the project here (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55777)! If you're interested, check it out to see how we'll be proceeding with a community-driven Master Set!

lefton4ya
April 9th, 2019, 12:54 PM
Eventually I'd like to see a C3V "master set" that uses AotP figures but also maps/scenarios with terrain from the sets using these rules.

Great minds think alike (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=2271869#post2271869). ;)...
Great minds do think alike! See New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55708) for specific discussion on what to do with "sand" tiles from the AotP sets.

On poll Using Magic: AotP figures in Heroscape? (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=54485) the question "How do you feel about using Magic: AotP figures in Heroscape?" was answered overwhelmingly with:
Yes, but only if the Planeswalkers are rethemed as generic fantasy figures.
so long as they're well-designed/balanced units, I don't really care. There can always be some lore-reason to explain any monochromism present, such as the monsters being made of clay or something.

I trust C3V to be able to exactly that. The transparent blue figures are easily illusions or water elementals, likewise the transparent red figures are clearly made of fire. Monochromatic green treefolk wouldn't bother me at all, neither would animated porcelain rhino or kyrie statues, or plain purple alien things.

That gives us seven designs from Innistrad (six heroes and a squad), eleven from the base set (five heroes and six squads), and four from Zendikar (three heroes and a squad) without much effort. Fourteen heroes and eight squads is a pretty nice list of new Heroscape figures, and there's plenty more if C3V can get a little creative.


This means that instead of just reusing names and powers from AotP cards and just changing points, people want to reuse figures but with completely new units, and that many of the unpainted figures can be used as is. I have said before, AotP sets along with Battleball combined would make a great "Master Set"
https://cf.geekdo-images.com/medium/img/2fWs6aTbvTV71Dhsqp97gzLpWYA=/fit-in/500x500/filters:no_upscale()/pic146585.jpg (https://cf.geekdo-images.com/original/img/YMRBDcbCLtA7bNJNAdy8djtsOwg=/0x0/pic146585.jpg)
I think if we finished what is in the pipeline (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33397), we then could created a whole wave using just Magic: AotP figures (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=54485) (which has mostly fantasy units) and Battleball (which is mostly futuristic) and it would be a complete set of Craig Van Ness and Stephen Baker designed figures. And my opinion is to make some common squads/heroes and some unique squads and heroes from each, as many people (including myself) already have sets of both games, and at or less than $1 per figure they are both cheaper than any pre-painted figure anywhere besides common Heroclix, not to mention it is way easier for most people to get than having to scour tons of sites to get single figures.

Am I the only one who wants to see a race of Cylons in Heroscape (or Cyborgs if you are not a BSG fan) as Battleball figs would be great for that - someone can create a story that says the Mariedians infiltrated Soulborgs or vice-versa, and yes use Isadora as a planet for some.

IAmBatman
April 9th, 2019, 01:14 PM
I'm still reading through it, but I just want to stop and say this is an amazing post, you make a great case, and I'd be very excited to see VC take your idea and run with it (hopefully with your passionate involvement)!
Dadscaper I hope you check this out. :-)

Arch-vile
April 9th, 2019, 01:25 PM
Great posts. I couldn't agree more. This is a ridiculously cheap source of Heroscape terrain (!!!) and repainted figures. I'm surprised it hasn't been adapted by C3V already.

superfrog
April 9th, 2019, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the post, Astro.

We have already announced that we're using the Pummelroot Elementals as an alternate figure for one of our designs, but I'm sure this will spark some more discussion about using other figures, and perhaps terrain.

Astroking112
April 9th, 2019, 04:06 PM
Great minds do think alike! See New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55708) for specific discussion on what to do with "sand" tiles from the AotP sets.

I find it really amusing that we both made posts expressing similar sentiments so closely together. :lol:

That's also a great chance to brainstorm any potential terrain rules. I think that just treating the land hexes as normal terrain in the vein of rock, grass, or sand would be fine, especially for people who can only get AotP sets, but it's still good to discuss it.

On poll Using Magic: AotP figures in Heroscape? (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=54485) the question "How do you feel about using Magic: AotP figures in Heroscape?" was answered overwhelmingly with:
Yes, but only if the Planeswalkers are rethemed as generic fantasy figures.
so long as they're well-designed/balanced units, I don't really care. There can always be some lore-reason to explain any monochromism present, such as the monsters being made of clay or something.

I trust C3V to be able to exactly that. The transparent blue figures are easily illusions or water elementals, likewise the transparent red figures are clearly made of fire. Monochromatic green treefolk wouldn't bother me at all, neither would animated porcelain rhino or kyrie statues, or plain purple alien things.

That gives us seven designs from Innistrad (six heroes and a squad), eleven from the base set (five heroes and six squads), and four from Zendikar (three heroes and a squad) without much effort. Fourteen heroes and eight squads is a pretty nice list of new Heroscape figures, and there's plenty more if C3V can get a little creative.


This means that instead of just reusing names and powers from AotP cards and just changing points, people want to reuse figures but with completely new units, and that many of the unpainted figures can be used as is. I have said before, AotP sets along with Battleball combined would make a great "Master Set"


I don't think we even need to add in Battleball figures, to be honest. They're definitely great options, but we have a perfect opportunity for a self-contained set with just AotP already. As NecroBlade pointed out, we've got well over 20 opportunities for good designs here, which is more than most of the Master Sets near the end of the game's lifecycle already.

Battleball would definitely be great for further expansions, though.

I'm still reading through it, but I just want to stop and say this is an amazing post, you make a great case, and I'd be very excited to see VC take your idea and run with it (hopefully with your passionate involvement)!
Dadscaper I hope you check this out. :-)

Thanks for the support! I'd be more than willing to help out in any capacity needed to make this happen.

Great posts. I couldn't agree more. This is a ridiculously cheap source of Heroscape terrain (!!!) and repainted figures. I'm surprised it hasn't been adapted by C3V already.

Agreed. HeroScape terrain is a rarity, and we have some new perfectly compatible terrain on our hands with plenty of possibilities. It'd be a waste to squander this opportunity, in my eyes.

Thanks for the post, Astro.

We have already announced that we're using the Pummelroot Elementals as an alternate figure for one of our designs, but I'm sure this will spark some more discussion about using other figures, and perhaps terrain.

That's good to hear. Like I said, I don't know what plans were made outside of the Pummelroot Elementals, but I think that this is a matter important enough to make the argument for it anyway. Sparking more discussion is exactly what I want to do.

My impression has been that it's easy to agree that the AotP sets should be used, but I wasn't so sure if there were any proponents for branding it as a new Master Set specifically. I feel like that would be a big part of the advantage of using these figures.

IAmBatman
April 9th, 2019, 04:12 PM
I think that you make a really good case for treating the terrain just as normal terrain (this would be a gateway into the game). I think the place for specific terrain rules would then be in scenarios for the set.

flameslayer93
April 9th, 2019, 04:13 PM
Considering folks are still just finding the C3V/SoV to match their needs for continued ‘Scape-age, as Master Set cobbled from 3 seperate boxes would make for a good entry point for newbies. Some synergy can be linked between the designs and other C3V designs to further give folks more to play with.

Great idea Astroking112

Pumpkin_King
April 9th, 2019, 04:14 PM
100% agree with you on this, and I would very happily work on this project! I think it’s way past time to use the AOTP units and I think a master set is great opportunity.

I will say I’d hope that we could use the Pummelroots for a unique unit, but that’s a small quibble.

Astroking112
April 9th, 2019, 04:16 PM
I think that you make a really good case for treating the terrain just as normal terrain (this would be a gateway into the game). I think the place for specific terrain rules would then be in scenarios for the set.

Agreed. I think that an ideal situation would have at least one or two scenarios that do use the cardboard mats (and then others that mix AotP with the various terrain expansions/other Master Sets), so that the Arena sets can be used standalone as well. Those mats already have plenty of terrain like the "Weirded Out" spaces that can be used for more unique rules.

Dad_Scaper
April 10th, 2019, 03:17 PM
I'm still reading through it, but I just want to stop and say this is an amazing post, you make a great case, and I'd be very excited to see VC take your idea and run with it (hopefully with your passionate involvement)!
Dadscaper I hope you check this out. :-)
I'll study it later. Overall, as I've already communicated privately to AK, I think this is a valuable addition to the conversation about what's next. I am grateful for it.

itsbuzzi
April 10th, 2019, 04:06 PM
This is an amazing idea! There was a forum created in the AotP just for blending the two games together that I thought was curious but I never saw it through nor tried any blending myself. As an owner of plenty of Heroscape along with all the AotP expansion sets (Thank you for the final blessing Toys R Us RIP) I would love to see some more usefulness out of the set.

I originally bought it because it was so cheap and included more land tiles and the mats seemed useful for carrying maps around (I use cardboard with mats underneath then the Heroscape map on top). I honestly never used the cards nor the figures that came with the game and they basically sit in a shame box because I didn't find them as useful.

Some tournaments I have seen tried to mix AotP with Heroscape units and I recall a map building contest that used the AotP terrain. With all this said it seems we have just been beating around the bush trying to make the pieces useful where this idea can turn the whole thing into more stuff to use! I run a few tournaments myself and allow C3V/SoV just to get more players and more figures involved and as Astroking mentioned this would be a great way to get players into C3V/SoV including myself!

Hope this plan sees it's way through!

Flash_19
April 10th, 2019, 04:22 PM
Great posts. I couldn't agree more. This is a ridiculously cheap source of Heroscape terrain (!!!) and repainted figures. I'm surprised it hasn't been adapted by C3V already.

My thoughts exactly.

NecroBlade
April 10th, 2019, 09:40 PM
I'm totally on board with this, too! Not quoting the OP here because it's super long, but I'll respond to some other stuff.


Great minds do think alike! See New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55708) for specific discussion on what to do with "sand" tiles from the AotP sets.
While I agree "quicksand" would make more sense if they were "liquid" tiles like water/lava, I do like this opportunity to add a new terrain type to the game and quicksand does seem like a good option given the tiles. I'll have to poke around, because I'm fairly certain there was a solid quicksand design a while ago that a bunch of the community liked.

On poll Using Magic: AotP figures in Heroscape? (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=54485) the question "How do you feel about using Magic: AotP figures in Heroscape?" was answered overwhelmingly with:
Yes, but only if the Planeswalkers are rethemed as generic fantasy figures.

While other Magic minis have recently been added to the D&D line, I doubt we'll ever see enough to make it worth adding Magic planes to Heroscape. This seems much cooler as a new Heroscape Master Set without forcing the AotP theme to come along with it. And, it's what the community wants.

Battleball
I could get behind this as well (even though I'd have to buy another copy), but as a separate discussion from the AotP Master Set.

This is a ridiculously cheap source of Heroscape terrain (!!!)
The mats I couldn't care less about (outside of being a great way for new players to jump in), but quicksand and cryptoliths (finally, some new Destructible Objects!!) are very welcome additions.

We have already announced that we're using the Pummelroot Elementals as an alternate figure for one of our designs.
Slightly disappointing as that's one less potential design here, but honestly even for walking trees the solid green isn't too hot. Even without them, we should be able to use at minimum:

AotP:

5 Unique Heroes (Planeswalkers)
6 Unique Squads (fire hounds and phoenixes, shadow zombies, 2 different blue illusions/elementals, animated rhino statues)

SoI:

6 Unique Heroes (Planeswalkers, animated angel statue)

BfZ:

3 Unique Heroes (Planewalkers, giant alien)
1 Unique Squad (small aliens)

That's 21 units (14 heroes, 7 squads), with more if the shadow/animated themes are extended to other black/white figures.

Thanks for getting things started, Astroking112.

One concern I do have is how this project should be tackled. IMO, it's too large for the C3V to do exclusively internally (given that ideally the units flow from start to finish at about the same pace). Throwing this out there to get the conversation going, but I would like to see a community-driven project that breaks the above potential designs into a few smaller groups. Let the public vote on VC members and other high profile community members to lead each group. Then the groups publicly (i.e. the Heroscape community at large) tackle everything from design to playtesting, with the elected members mainly acting to keep the processes moving and step in when something breaks down.

Dr.Phibes
April 10th, 2019, 10:23 PM
Has anybody researched how to buy the rights to Heroscape from Hasbro or who ever owns them at the moment? Then we can rely on the community to make some sort of Kickstarter like campaign to aquire said rights?

Pumpkin_King
April 10th, 2019, 10:26 PM
That's a discussion we've had a lot - we should keep this t hread to a really great community project.

Dr.Phibes
April 10th, 2019, 10:35 PM
Ah, got you. I was just saying it would be nice to see something done officially. Whatever happens, I would love.to see a expansion dome regardless. If I can help in any way then I will, I'm pretty dedicated to the game and always thinking of mechanics and new additions to the game.

Pumpkin_King
April 10th, 2019, 10:45 PM
Short answer is: CVN is trying, but it's a longshot.

All Your Pie
April 10th, 2019, 11:21 PM
I more or less agree with the sentiment of this, and from a scan of the other comments it seems I'm with the consensus in that. I think NB is right though in that this would be a tricky undertaking for the C3V design process--tricky, but not impossible. It's no secret that the internal design process is slow, and that this is a good thing for maintaining a high standard of quality and oversight. Is the speed of that process capable of maintaining enthusiasm for a master set during the development of an additional 20+ units on top of the C3V's current workload? For that matter, will the AotP sets still be highly available by the time that it's done?

My tentative and underinformed suggestion is that at the very least, C3V would need to invite in some additional design leads in order to handle the workload. I personally think it would be a good thing for some of those designs to be run with public input, but I am aware that runs highly counter to the C3V's design method. Basically, my overall point here is that I think it would be a misstep for the C3V to rely on its current processes if it wanted to produce a master set. This is not because those processes are necessarily flawed, but they simply aren't suited to this goal if they are proceeded with unaltered.

Astroking112
April 11th, 2019, 12:09 AM
AotP:

5 Unique Heroes (Planeswalkers)
6 Unique Squads (fire hounds and phoenixes, shadow zombies, 2 different blue illusions/elementals, animated rhino statues)

SoI:

6 Unique Heroes (Planeswalkers, animated angel statue)

BfZ:

3 Unique Heroes (Planewalkers, giant alien)
1 Unique Squad (small aliens)

That's 21 units (14 heroes, 7 squads), with more if the shadow/animated themes are extended to other black/white figures.

If I remember things correctly, SoI included another translucent blue squad with the two Lantern Gheists. There were also robed plain black figures, for another potential shadow squad design. I'd have to take a look at all of the units to remember what else there is, though.


My tentative and underinformed suggestion is that at the very least, C3V would need to invite in some additional design leads in order to handle the workload. I personally think it would be a good thing for some of those designs to be run with public input, but I am aware that runs highly counter to the C3V's design method. Basically, my overall point here is that I think it would be a misstep for the C3V to rely on its current processes if it wanted to produce a master set. This is not because those processes are necessarily flawed, but they simply aren't suited to this goal if they are proceeded with unaltered.

I completely agree with both this and NB's similar points. Because of C3V's nature, it would be tough to finish a Master Set for a simultaneous release while keeping the current community engaged with new units. Public playtesting (especially with more involvement) can help address this, but I'm not aware of enough details on the internal pipeline to know if that would be the best course of action here.

The more people involved in creating a Master Set, the more realistic the goal will be. I believe that phrasing it as a VC Master Set rather than solely a C3V one is a viable direction here, since it would require a lot more than the normal small expansions to make it happen. I do think that figuring this out is entirely worth the effort, though, and will have great benefits.

Dad_Scaper
April 11th, 2019, 12:11 AM
I would quibble with a few of your points, AK. I don't, for instance, agree that we struggle to find minis. There are far more quality painted minis out there, in the correct aesthetic, than we can use. I certainly don't think we are so desperate for figures that we need unpainted minis. Least of all, fantasy unpainted minis.

But some of your points are well-taken. I agree it would be wonderful to have a sort of a C3V starter set, as you say, to help people interested in dipping their toes into the water. And the cardboard terrain might be an interesting way for people to start playing, even if we never find it's acceptable in a competitive setting.

We have, of course, identified boxes of minis before. A couple of boxes of Confrontation minis; the Blood of Gruumsh box. Those minis, though, as you correctly point out, are not already based.

I'm not sure what to do with this food for thought. The case in favor is not so great as you make it out to be, but it is also not so weak as it might appear.

Thank you again.

Pumpkin_King
April 11th, 2019, 12:26 AM
From a scan of the threads and the discord, the view for might have more proponents than the view against.

Dad_Scaper
April 11th, 2019, 12:28 AM
From a scan of the threads and the discord, the view for might have more proponents than the view against.
If that's a response to me, I wasn't counting noses when I said I am weighing the positions. I think the reasons in favor of running with this proposal are, no disrespect intended, somewhat exaggerated. There is merit nonetheless. That is what I meant.

superfrog
April 11th, 2019, 12:37 AM
The biggest obstacle for me is that so much of this is unpainted.

I'd love to use the painted stuff and the transparent stuff, and the terrain, and the cryptoliths, but I don't think unpainted is going to fly with VC. That's a line I'd prefer to keep drawn in the sand.

That doesn't necessarily rule out a Master Set (or maybe we could call it a Game Set like Marvel was), but it does temper the "70 figures" claim that Astro is making. I count 12 painted figures and 12 translucent figures.

flameslayer93
April 11th, 2019, 12:59 AM
You’ve also got a Transluscent hero merfolk hero and the two transluscent ghost-like figures for 3 more minis.

Dad_Scaper
April 11th, 2019, 01:03 AM
We don’t have a use for a mountain of translucent minis, either. As I said, we don’t need the minis.

Astroking112
April 11th, 2019, 01:33 AM
One of the struggles for VC currently is the need to find suitable miniatures. There are many problems with this, from finding things that will be cheap and readily available for as long as possible to getting sculpts and realizing that the scale or size simply doesn't fit with HeroScape.

Here, we have over 70 miniatures that not only are the perfect scale, but come pre-based and are all included in the same box. This last part is especially important in my eyes, as a big inhibitor for people to get into C3V is the need to individually track down each sculpt that they like and then purchase them from wherever they can find. Here, we have an abundance of good miniatures that can easily be acquired.

In addition to this, the sets are all currently cheap...I would quibble with a few of your points, AK. I don't, for instance, agree that we struggle to find minis. There are far more quality painted minis out there, in the correct aesthetic, than we can use. I certainly don't think we are so desperate for figures that we need unpainted minis. Least of all, fantasy unpainted minis.

My apologies if this section seems to have exaggerated the problems with finding miniatures to you. I stand by the statement that one of the main problems for C3V, SoV, or any other community-led project for this game is finding miniatures that are not only cheap, but easily acquirable.

That last part was intended to be the focus. A big barrier to entry for many people is the need to peruse sites like Troll and Toad, MiniatureMarket, or all of the other websites to find the units (sometimes split amongst these now) that they want. The AotP sets, on the other hand, are much more approachable for people.

I do agree that some of the unpainted minis could really only be used as proxies (like what happened with the Pummelroot Elementals), but the sets have far more to offer than just unpainted miniatures. C3V might not be starving for miniatures, but why not take advantage of an excellent opportunity when it presents itself?

Fantasy-based burnout is real and inevitable with the biggest source of miniatures being D&D and Pathfinder. I'm sure we've all struggled with that before, but that doesn't mean that all fantasy units are bad, especially when this set includes things like phantoms and metallic towers to spice things up. There's a lot of gameplay potential here, from a lot of different designers.

But some of your points are well-taken. I agree it would be wonderful to have a sort of a C3V starter set, as you say, to help people interested in dipping their toes into the water. And the cardboard terrain might be an interesting way for people to start playing, even if we never find it's acceptable in a competitive setting.

We have, of course, identified boxes of minis before. A couple of boxes of Confrontation minis; the Blood of Gruumsh box. Those minis, though, as you correctly point out, are not already based.

I'm not sure what to do with this food for thought. The case in favor is not so great as you make it out to be, but it is also not so weak as it might appear.

Thank you again.

I do think that it's great when C3V can use a box of units, but I view those examples as being very different from this opportunity. The AotP sets present enough content and additional components to be self-sufficient on their own, which makes them particularly suited to fulfilling this task. That, moreso than the lack of a base on some C3V figures, is a better reason for these sets forming a Master Set.

I do appreciate your honest response. Likewise, I think that your negatives aren't nearly as big as the positives, but it's important to look at the prospect from multiple directions.

The biggest obstacle for me is that so much of this is unpainted.

I'd love to use the painted stuff and the transparent stuff, and the terrain, and the cryptoliths, but I don't think unpainted is going to fly with VC. That's a line I'd prefer to keep drawn in the sand.

That doesn't necessarily rule out a Master Set (or maybe we could call it a Game Set like Marvel was), but it does temper the "70 figures" claim that Astro is making. I count 12 painted figures and 12 translucent figures.

The 70 miniatures claim was specifically directed towards the scale of the minis and the fact that they're all somewhat posed to be used for HeroScape, much moreso than most other miniatures on the market. Even the unpainted stuff, like the Pummelroots, has its uses.

Even if only those few 24 figures were used, that's still the size of a Master Set (even larger than some). Which figures are acceptable is extremely reliant on personal opinion, which makes it hard to nail everything down. For example, the black solid minis look perfect as shadows to me, just as much as the translucent pieces like elementals or illusions.

NecroBlade's idea for the Porcelain Rhinos also sounds great. There are plenty of other ideas floating about out there, any combination of which can be employed.

Dad_Scaper
April 11th, 2019, 01:41 AM
I would quibble with a few of your points, AK. I don't, for instance, agree that we struggle to find minis. There are far more quality painted minis out there, in the correct aesthetic, than we can use. I certainly don't think we are so desperate for figures that we need unpainted minis. Least of all, fantasy unpainted minis.

My apologies if this section seems to have exaggerated the problems with finding miniatures to you. I stand by the statement that one of the main problems for C3V, SoV, or any other community-led project for this game is finding miniatures that are not only cheap, but easily acquirable.
It's not just my opinion that we don't need more medium sized fantasy painted minis. It's a fact, in that we consider and reject far more minis then we actually use, just because we can afford to be picky. Especially in this genre.

There are plenty of other ideas floating about out there, any combination of which can be employed.
I'd much rather have one good idea for a mini than a hundred good ones. Regardless, I am deeply concerned that releasing twenty pounds of unpainted plastic will look like twenty pounds of unpainted plastic, even if we come up with a story (This one's a statue! This one's a tree! This one's an illusion!) for each.

Like I said, I don't think that's the most important part of your argument. But the idea that we somehow need this mountain of mostly-unpainted fantasy minis is not correct.

Astroking112
April 11th, 2019, 01:53 AM
It's not just my opinion that we don't need more medium sized fantasy painted minis. It's a fact, in that we consider and reject far more minis then we actually use, just because we can afford to be picky. Especially in this genre.

Like I said, I don't think that's the most important part of your argument. But the idea that we somehow need this mountain of mostly-unpainted fantasy minis is not correct.

I must be misunderstanding your stance, then. I wasn't saying that it was your opinion, but rather that even if we do have an abundance of other medium fantasy miniatures, these still pose a good opportunity for the reasons outlined in the rest of the thread. The important bit here to me is how approachable this would be for everyone, not the fact that most of the figures are unpainted or easiest to apply a fantasy theming to.

I would argue that VC does have a need to make an approachable starter set, and these sets are the best opportunity that we have to make one. I'm glad to hear that you agree that your quibbles aren't against the heart of the argument, and I'm sorry for misinterpreting your posts to be focusing on them to the point of downplaying the other benefits.

Edit:
There are plenty of other ideas floating about out there, any combination of which can be employed.
I'd much rather have one good idea for a mini than a hundred good ones. Regardless, I am deeply concerned that releasing twenty pounds of unpainted plastic will look like twenty pounds of unpainted plastic, even if we come up with a story (This one's a statue! This one's a tree! This one's an illusion!) for each.

I was saying that there are plenty of reasons for some of those miniatures to be used, of which any single good one can be chosen. Any of these would be paired with the painted minis, the translucent ones, and the compatible terrain to at the very least make a functional set. Will it be as beautiful as Rise of the Valkyrie? No, I don't think that even the original designers could deliver something like that again. That said, I don't think that the aesthetic of including a squad or two of unpainted minis with the translucent and painted ones is a big enough negative to justify not taking this opportunity.

Dad_Scaper
April 11th, 2019, 01:54 AM
It's not just my opinion that we don't need more medium sized fantasy painted minis. It's a fact, in that we consider and reject far more minis then we actually use, just because we can afford to be picky. Especially in this genre.

Like I said, I don't think that's the most important part of your argument. But the idea that we somehow need this mountain of mostly-unpainted fantasy minis is not correct.

I must be misunderstanding your stance, then. I wasn't saying that it was your opinion, but rather that even if we do have an abundance of other medium fantasy miniatures, these still pose a good opportunity for the reasons outlined in the rest of the thread. The important bit here to me is how approachable this would be for everyone, not the fact that most of the figures are unpainted or easiest to apply a fantasy theming to.

I would argue that VC does have a need to make an approachable starter set, and these sets are the best opportunity that we have to make one. I'm glad to hear that you agree that your quibbles aren't against the heart of the argument, and I'm sorry for misinterpreting your posts to be focusing on them to the point of downplaying the other benefits.
Small potatoes. You don't owe an apology or an explanation. Thanks for what you've offered here, it's a significant contribution to the hobby.

Cheers!

Astroking112
April 11th, 2019, 02:05 AM
Small potatoes. You don't owe an apology or an explanation. Thanks for what you've offered here, it's a significant contribution to the hobby.

Cheers!

I'm glad to see that we were able to come to a better understanding here. Plenty of people have been making great contributions to this idea, and I'm glad to see the ball rolling on some of these concepts.

Likewise! :)

Tmac2200
April 11th, 2019, 05:15 AM
Honestly I don't find the idea of unpainted mini's overly appealing. I would rather there be perhaps simplified paint jobs made as an official alternate on the cards.

bellahdoll
April 13th, 2019, 08:58 PM
I just thought I'd chime in with something that I don't feel has received enough attention.

I've bought nearly every C3V unit, and they've very rarely released a large box set quite like the Arena sets. The Dungeon Command sets require rebasing, and that is definitely a hassle to the people completely lacking in crafting skills such as myself. The Pathfinder Starter sets and the like only have a few figures (the Arashara Goshiri set had fewer painted figures than the first Arena set!). Only the Confrontation Army boxes are comparable to the Arena sets in providing a large number of figures that don't require a hassle to rebase all in one go like these sets. That's the reason I loved those Army boxes, and why I would love the Arena sets equally. With due respect, and believe me that is an immense amount, I feel like some members of the C3V are undervaluing what a gift getting this many ready to play figures at once is.

While it's true there is a large supply of fantasy figures, getting those figures can be a pain. Finding sufficient supply in stock at the same time is quite difficult to get at a single location. Let's just take one example. In order to buy the basically necessary four squads of pirates, with the four different sculpts of them constantly going in and out of stock I had to place no less than eight different orders across multiple websites and sellers on eBay. And even for unique heroes, it can be tough to find one in stock, let alone multiple different sculpts from the same outlet. I've lost track of the times I check Coolstuff or Troll and Toad and find one new hero figure I need in stock but others I look for are not.

Yes, there are plenty of other miniatures. I don't question the massive availability of usable painted sculpts. But none of them are a fraction as easy to acquire as the Arena sets. There is no large box of ready to play miniatures that are easier to acquire than these Arena boxes. Even using all unique cards for them, the amount of new Army Cards you could get in one fell swoop that need no rebasing hassle is a huge boon.

The ease with which they can be purchased without having to pull out your hair chasing figures down across the web more than makes up for the lack of paint applications on most of them in my opinion. They look perfectly fine to me at least, because the colored plastic is fine, and to my eyes a little bit of color goes a long way. If you use all the sculpts I'd definitely love to be able to get dozens of figures to use from only THREE purchases. Putting three different items in my cart normally isn't even a single complete squad of pirates, and here it would be twice the number of figures from Rise of the Valkyrie! Don't underestimate the appeal of easy shopping. Speaking as someone who has scoured websites for figures far too often, I'm certain someone is more likely to get into C3V from having to buy a couple easy-to-find boxes to get a ton of figures than to have to painstakingly track down single figures across the web.

Pumpkin_King
April 13th, 2019, 09:08 PM
Very good perspective on it! Thank you!

Dad_Scaper
April 13th, 2019, 11:24 PM
Yes! I think you're exactly right, bellahdoll. I think that is the most important thing here. That what we *don't* have is a Starter Set. And AK proposes the AotP boxes could fill that void. Thank you for your interest in what we do, and thank you for letting us know what you think. :up:

Tornado
April 14th, 2019, 12:31 AM
Instead of trying to convince C3V, you all should start your own group and make customs out of the Arena sets. There are a ton of great designers here and I think a new group designing fantasy customs would be well received.

Leaf_It
April 14th, 2019, 07:45 AM
Instead of trying to convince C3V, you all should start your own group and make customs out of the Arena sets. There are a ton of great designers here and I think a new group designing fantasy customs would be well received.
A new group will surely need to be created for it, but if it is going to amount to anything, the C3V/SoV need to be overseeing it, and approving what it creates as it progresses. A small group, or even a single person, can do whatever they want, but I can promise you that without the backing of the C3V/SoV it will never amount to anything like what is being proposed here. No one cares about a random person's customs. They care about their own customs, the C3V/SoV's customs, and maybe their friend's customs. The C3V/SoV has a reputation tied to it, and there's nothing any of us can do about that. The idea is to have a large amount of easily accessible figures, that represent a jumping on point for new players that want to experience the C3V/SoV. This isn't the same as some random group of players, that happened to make a list of neat customs. This is the C3V/SoV. This is the largest, and most widely tournament approved list of custom creations. There's a certain amount of respect that is automatically given to anything that gets into that "Books of" thread. This idea is meaningless by comparison without the backing of the C3V/SoV. No one would really care in the end. They might initially care, and try it out for a few weeks, to a few months. In a year, it will just be like the CHCG24. The C3V/SoV are used at serious tournaments, I mean, as serious as current Heroscape can get. The proposed project is a massive undertaking. Multiple designers, and countless playtests will need to be done, and from people who have an idea of what they are doing too, not just your average Heroscaper, taking a 101 crash course on how to do it. I can promise you that every single one of the figures in the Arena of the Planeswalkers sets has had many custom cards created for it, but those customs are no different than the literal tens of thousands of customs that have been posted in this very forum, or the hundreds of random customs you can buy off ebay. Do this without the C3V/SoV, and it will be no different. Why should anyone care about My customs? Or Your customs? They don't. They have no reason to. The C3V, like it or not, are the most cared about customs. (outside of the C3G, but that's because it is directed at a super hero customs, and doesn't work for people who want to expand their classic scape.) They are celebrities of the Heroscape scene. People care about what they do.

Tornado
April 14th, 2019, 07:55 AM
I completely reject the notion that only C3V can make solid cards. The SoV cards are mostly made by individuals and those are C3V approved.
I think you are selling short the abilities of the extremely talented designers on this site.
I do think, as I already stated, it needs to be a group effort but it does not have to be C3V.
If no one else pays attention, who cares? Collaborate, have fun and create the cards you desire and the rest will work itself out. :)

IAmBatman
April 14th, 2019, 08:14 AM
I completely reject the notion that only C3V can make solid cards. The SoV cards are mostly made by individuals and those are C3V approved.
I think you are selling short the abilities of the extremely talented designers on this site.
I do think, as I already stated, it needs to be a group effort but it does not have to be C3V.
If no one else pays attention, who cares? Collaborate, have fun and create the cards you desire and the rest will work itself out. :)

The point of this thread is flying over your head, my friend. It's a post made by C3V/SoV/VC/whatever you want to call it fans who want to easy entry point to that, not just a bunch of custom cards, whatever their quality.

It's like if I posted in HoSS that I wanted a box of Star Wars figures designed and you told me to just create my own group and do it myself. I don't want my own customs group's cards - I want HoSS.

If you're not seeing the value provided by the big-name established groups around here, I'm not sure what to tell you. :shrug:

Leaf_It
April 14th, 2019, 08:28 AM
I completely reject the notion that only C3V can make solid cards. The SoV cards are mostly made by individuals and those are C3V approved.
I think you are selling short the abilities of the extremely talented designers on this site.
I do think, as I already stated, it needs to be a group effort but it does not have to be C3V.
If no one else pays attention, who cares? Collaborate, have fun and create the cards you desire and the rest will work itself out. :)
I know it wasn't very clear in my post, but I in no way intended to say that only the C3V can make solid cards. I meant that most people won't care, unless it's C3V/SoV.

If it isn't the C3V, then there's nothing to speak to the polish of the designs. Yes, you and I know that certain creators on this site are very talented, and basically anything they make will be pretty good, but the average newcomer doesn't know that, and they don't care. I know I didn't when I was new. With experience comes an understanding that new comers don't have, and we need to be looking at this with a perspective of a newcomer. They who are looking to expand their own classic scape because official stuff is expensive, and most random customs are not great, but "hey I heard the C3V makes some pretty good stuff."

If no one pays attention, that's all fine and good for my own customs, I don't expect much attention until I start trying to get through the SoV with something. That attention isn't there because of me though, it's there because everyone has a level of expectation, when it comes to the polish of an SoV design. The community looks very critically at things when anything is put through the SoV. The SoV demands that, and so does the C3V. That's why it has it's reputation, and as a result, that is why the average newcomer cares.

Tornado
April 14th, 2019, 08:30 AM
Considering C3V's current hard stance on pre-painted minis, what are the chances of a C3V Arena set actually happening?
I am just going off from the responses like the following and offering an alternative option that could be a rewarding experience and be the beginning of something special.
We donít have a use for a mountain of translucent minis, either. As I said, we donít need the minis.

Leaf_It
April 14th, 2019, 08:41 AM
Considering C3V's current hard stance on pre-painted minis, what are the chances of a C3V Arena set actually happening?
I am just going off from the responses like the following and offering an alternative option that could be a rewarding experience and be the beginning of something special.
We donít have a use for a mountain of translucent minis, either. As I said, we donít need the minis.
It's little less of a hard stance recently, with the announcement of a 3D printed figure.

Also Dad_Scaper was voicing his opinion. It's a common opinion, but it is an opinion. I don't completely agree with it, because I like the value of adding that level of easy to access figures, that can be purchased for cheap. A jumping on point for a big group like this has a lot of potential, and I like the idea, even using the unpainted non-translucent figures, just because of the value it would add.

I'm going to leave now. It's almost 6am and I need to sleep.

IAmBatman
April 14th, 2019, 08:46 AM
I'd say roughly the same chances as HoSS making lightsabers into equipment glyphs. :-P Possible, but unlikely.

I'm not sure if I see the value in trying to directly compete with an established and respected group like C3V by starting a new project, no matter how special the results might be. I remember quite a few fledgling groups that tried to get results in Superheroscape. I don't have to tell you the results.

Tornado
April 14th, 2019, 08:48 AM
You could always go the SoV route. Form a group to submit Arena customs to SoV. If they continue to reject the designs solely based on the minis then you will know it will never happen in C3V. If they do then you just opened the door to a whole new world of customs.

IAmBatman
April 14th, 2019, 08:50 AM
SoV is always an option - though a slow one for getting the entire set through (not that C3V wouldn't move slowly on that either). Perhaps getting a few figures from that box in through SoV will help solidify the case for C3V considering it.

I do agree with working within the established system in order to accomplish the goals outlined in the OP, though. A new, independent project doesn't seem like a fit for those goals, IMO.

Tornado
April 14th, 2019, 08:53 AM
The alternative is to do nothing. If years pass and things are the same then what?
Plead more?

IAmBatman
April 14th, 2019, 08:56 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you about SoV being a good route. I'm just establishing reasonable expectations. The ideal would be for all of VC to get on board and work together, of course, but that's in the control of a few and they got there for a reason, and know the project better than we do.

NecroBlade
April 14th, 2019, 10:26 AM
I mean, this was my suggestion for a reason...:


One concern I do have is how this project should be tackled. IMO, it's too large for the C3V to do exclusively internally (given that ideally the units flow from start to finish at about the same pace). Throwing this out there to get the conversation going, but I would like to see a community-driven project that breaks the above potential designs into a few smaller groups. Let the public vote on VC members and other high profile community members to lead each group. Then the groups publicly (i.e. the Heroscape community at large) tackle everything from design to playtesting, with the elected members mainly acting to keep the processes moving and step in when something breaks down.

IAmBatman
April 14th, 2019, 10:34 AM
I think full buy in from C3V would be important to making such an effort work.

Pumpkin_King
April 14th, 2019, 11:49 AM
Stay tuned. Hopefully we’ll be talking about something in a little bit here.

Tmac2200
April 14th, 2019, 05:14 PM
I bought 3 of the base set, are the figures going to be common squads or unique? I think having all these squads in the box for cheap is all the more reason to make them common. Where else will it be this easy to get multiple common squads in good numbers affordably?

lefton4ya
April 14th, 2019, 05:40 PM
I bought 3 of the base set, are the figures going to be common squads or unique? I think having all these squads in the box for cheap is all the more reason to make them common. Where else will it be this easy to get multiple common squads in good numbers affordably?
Agree. I see the new set as somewhere between RoTV and the D&D master set where it is mostly unique, but most of the squads common with even some of the heroes should be uncommon. Yes you will "waste" the extras if you buy multiple, but you did so anyway with SotM and D&D master sets. However try not to make the commons so awesome you want to have more than 3 sets (i.e. like Marro Stingers) - maybe either make them super-expensive, lock-up, utility, or bonding units like Calvary, Deathreavers, Mezzodemons, or Marrden Nagrubs respectively. The same goes for Battleball, but that's a later discussion.

All Your Pie
April 14th, 2019, 06:13 PM
As long as the C3V is transparent and communicative about what figures they are and aren't willing to use, I think a separate community project could go a long way here. What I think would be unproductive is a project that directly competes with the C3V by designing cards that use the same miniature for different designs. This would compromise AotP's utility as a gateway set for 'Scape, as it leaves new players a confusing choice of which cards to use for their figures.

For figures that the VC is unwilling to touch, however, I think a lot of value could be created with a separate project to make VC-compatible Heroscape cards for their figures. That way anyone with the AotP sets could still use all the figures in a unified setting without any wasted potential. It would also remove any later possibility of redundancy, as the VC seems unlikely to greatly broaden its standards on what miniatures it is willing to use.

flameslayer93
April 14th, 2019, 06:17 PM
I bought 3 of the base set, are the figures going to be common squads or unique? I think having all these squads in the box for cheap is all the more reason to make them common. Where else will it be this easy to get multiple common squads in good numbers affordably?
Agree. I see the new set as somewhere between RoTV and the D&D master set where it is mostly unique, but most of the squads common with even some of the heroes should be uncommon. Yes you will "waste" the extras if you buy multiple, but you did so anyway with SotM and D&D master sets. However try not to make the commons so awesome you want to have more than 3 sets (i.e. like Marro Stingers) - maybe either make them super-expensive, lock-up, utility, or bonding units like Calvary, Deathreavers, Mezzodemons, or Marrden Nagrubs respectively. The same goes for Battleball, but that's a later discussion.

For right now, the group that’s heavily discussing this is thinking that all Unique Units is the way to go. While getting loads of commons would be great, after all I have 4X of the first box, creating the proposed 24 units, some as commons/uncommons, would be fairly tasking on any group. Also, since this can be branded as buying 3 boxes will get you everything you need to play the game, and enjoy the game, this leaves designs for common units generally out. 1 squad of Drow or Stingers pretty much sucks, after all. :p

Dad_Scaper
April 14th, 2019, 06:21 PM
Please people, do not expect more than we can deliver here.

Even if we announced we are using this box today - and that announcement is assuredly not coming - we would not be releasing it as a combined "master set" for years.

There is lots of helpful feedback for us here, but please understand that our design cycle is slow. It must be. I am very proud of our track record, but if we started rushing things along then mistakes would be made. And mistakes in a single unit or small number of units could compromise the quality of our entire body of work, and how welcome we are (and how welcome we should be) in your homes and at your tournaments.

We won't even start a design thread for a mini until we have some direction for the design. That's how careful we are about our personnel resources, and about selecting minis. It would take us a *long* time to get a project like this up and running, and when we were done we would have - to my mind - (and NB's objection notwithstanding) an excessive number of unpainted minis.

May I humbly suggest that you guys get something going here? Call it a new project. Farm out responsibilities somehow. If the C3V ends up using some or all of the minis, that's cool. But for those who feel like these minis are crying out to be used, then please use them! If your designs - the designs of this hypothetical group - are good enough, then local TDs might allow them. I know that I would allow them, if they presented as a good set.

Please don't expect us to commit to using these boxes right away, because we aren't built to make a commitment like that. And, even if we did, you would be holding on to them for a *long* time, which would (to my mind) partly defeat the purpose of responding to this thread's best points, which include the barrier of entry piece. Telling interested people that if they get these boxes then they'll have a Master Set in 2021 is not really helping new 'Scapers hop on board.

All that said, I'm not saying (1) we won't use these boxes, because we might use some of them, and (2) we aren't listening. There are things we *can* do to address some of these issues, and this conversation has pushed us in (I think) a very promising direction toward some new things for us. And, also, (3) please consider forming something up to use these boxes. You don't need the C3V. You don't need me. I think it would be a fun thing for the community to do, together. And nobody will stop you, and if the C3V uses the same minis for some other purpose, so much the better, because you'll already have them. If you like, I'll help organize a group, though I will not have the time to commit to participate in an active role after launch.

Astroking112
April 14th, 2019, 07:23 PM
Instead of trying to convince C3V, you all should start your own group and make customs out of the Arena sets. There are a ton of great designers here and I think a new group designing fantasy customs would be well received.

One of the key components of this project has to be a compatibility with VC in my eyes. We want to make a new Master Set that can introduce people to the game, but it's hard to do that without the support of the people currently continuing it.

I don't want to start competing with C3V, SoV, or any of the existing community-led projects. If C3V were to announce two years from now that they were going to use one of these minis, then new users would no longer have an easy introduction to VC unless they outright ignored one of the versions.

Similarly, we would want to ensure that we don't introduce a synergy that causes problems for C3V down the line, leading to a broken interaction. SoV is less of an issue here because everything is done openly, but if we want to have consistency, we need to make sure that everyone is at least somewhat on the same page.

I mean, this was my suggestion for a reason...:


One concern I do have is how this project should be tackled. IMO, it's too large for the C3V to do exclusively internally (given that ideally the units flow from start to finish at about the same pace). Throwing this out there to get the conversation going, but I would like to see a community-driven project that breaks the above potential designs into a few smaller groups. Let the public vote on VC members and other high profile community members to lead each group. Then the groups publicly (i.e. the Heroscape community at large) tackle everything from design to playtesting, with the elected members mainly acting to keep the processes moving and step in when something breaks down.


I agree with this sentiment. This project is a massive undertaking, and not one that I just want to push onto C3V. I (and I'm sure many others) are more than willing to help see this through in any capacity, and I think that this is unrealistic for C3V alone to accomplish within a reasonable timeframe without messing up their production schedule.

I know that you're working on a more formal proposal, so I'll leave it at that for now, but I think that this is a very valid direction to take the project.

Please people, do not expect more than we can deliver here.

Even if we announced we are using this box today - and that announcement is assuredly not coming - we would not be releasing it as a combined "master set" for years.

There is lots of helpful feedback for us here, but please understand that our design cycle is slow. It must be. I am very proud of our track record, but if we started rushing things along then mistakes would be made. And mistakes in a single unit or small number of units could compromise the quality of our entire body of work, and how welcome we are (and how welcome we should be) in your homes and at your tournaments.

We won't even start a design thread for a mini until we have some direction for the design. That's how careful we are about our personnel resources, and about selecting minis. It would take us a *long* time to get a project like this up and running, and when we were done we would have - to my mind - (and NB's objection notwithstanding) an excessive number of unpainted minis.

May I humbly suggest that you guys get something going here? Call it a new project. Farm out responsibilities somehow. If the C3V ends up using some or all of the minis, that's cool. But for those who feel like these minis are crying out to be used, then please use them! If your designs - the designs of this hypothetical group - are good enough, then local TDs might allow them. I know that I would allow them, if they presented as a good set.

Please don't expect us to commit to using these boxes right away, because we aren't built to make a commitment like that. And, even if we did, you would be holding on to them for a *long* time, which would (to my mind) partly defeat the purpose of responding to this thread's best points, which include the barrier of entry piece. Telling interested people that if they get these boxes then they'll have a Master Set in 2021 is not really helping new 'Scapers hop on board.

All that said, I'm not saying (1) we won't use these boxes, because we might use some of them, and (2) we aren't listening. There are things we *can* do to address some of these issues, and this conversation has pushed us in (I think) a very promising direction toward some new things for us. And, also, (3) please consider forming something up to use these boxes. You don't need the C3V. You don't need me. I think it would be a fun thing for the community to do, together. And nobody will stop you, and if the C3V uses the same minis for some other purpose, so much the better, because you'll already have them. If you like, I'll help organize a group, though I will not have the time to commit to participate in an active role after launch.

I don't think we have a problem with forming a new group or structure to do this, so long as we can earn C3V's respect with good designs and find acceptance. I phrased the proposal as a VC Master Set rather than a C3V one for this reason, because it makes plenty of sense for this to be a project that the C3V doesn't have to internally house and lead all on their own.

My main concern is still compatibility. The customs side of HeroScape is already a little more complex to get into than an official-only approach, so we would want to ensure that should we accomplish designs matching the excellent VC standards, they won't be overridden in a couple of years when C3V finds a use for one of the minis. We can do our best to maintain VC compatibility, but we can't do anything about future units and releasing new versions of our Master Set units each VC wave is hardly viable.

That said, I wouldn't ask for VC's seal of approval before results are shown, either. We want to ensure that great units are being put out as new additions to the VC canon, not to lock away these units under the hope of using them all. I think that so long as we can strike a balancing act here, both projects can build off of each other and really benefit the community.

I don't think that this is a project that C3V needs to do on their own, but I do think that it's one that they need to be open to incorporating under the VC umbrella in the future.

Dad_Scaper
April 14th, 2019, 07:37 PM
I'm not sure what you mean about putting something under the "VC umbrella." You don't need us, and trying to get a consensus about approving a unit inside the C3V, absent the firm structure of the SoV (or something very much like it) is unlikely be successful.

Please just do your thing. I encourage you (whoever it is) to have a real, disciplined organizational structure. I do not think the C3V or the C3G would have been able to be productive for all the years those two have been productive, but for their structure.

The alternative to having an organized large workshop is to have a small one. The SoV is relatively unstructured, and the various map-approving groups have all been unstructured. Which has suited all of them, because they are small.

My sense from FS's post is that a group focused on these may already exist. Great! Make sure it's set up the way you want and have at it. You don't need anything from anyone else, but many of us will be happy to pitch in somehow as needed, if you ask.

I will say that one way this could work is just to put these units together as a slow train to the SoV. Over time, they should all get the C3V/SoV approval you want. It can be done. Otherwise, just don't worry about us at all, and do a good job. :up:

Tornado
April 15th, 2019, 09:59 AM
Well said DS. Though it is pretty much exactly what I said, but it sounds better coming from you. :)

Dad_Scaper
April 15th, 2019, 12:20 PM
Well said DS. Though it is pretty much exactly what I said, but it sounds better coming from you. :)
Thanks, T.

Considering C3V's current hard stance on pre-painted minis, what are the chances of a C3V Arena set actually happening?
I am just going off from the responses like the following and offering an alternative option that could be a rewarding experience and be the beginning of something special.
We donít have a use for a mountain of translucent minis, either. As I said, we donít need the minis.
It's little less of a hard stance recently, with the announcement of a 3D printed figure.

Also Dad_Scaper was voicing his opinion. It's a common opinion, but it is an opinion. I don't completely agree with it, because I like the value of adding that level of easy to access figures, that can be purchased for cheap. A jumping on point for a big group like this has a lot of potential, and I like the idea, even using the unpainted non-translucent figures, just because of the value it would add.

I'm going to leave now. It's almost 6am and I need to sleep.
Yes! My posts are (normally) just my opinions. I worry in these types of conversations that some people might overlook that, and it's an important point.

Tornado
April 15th, 2019, 01:29 PM
To be fair though, and this is assuming you have a vote on what C3V actually does, your opinion is pretty important. :)

Tmac2200
April 19th, 2019, 04:37 AM
I'm curious if there would be any support for a full fledged customs project, similar to C3V, C3G, SoV, ect that primarily worked with unpainted minis. Maybe each figure would have a simple paint guide. I don't know how many people on heroscapers paints, but if enough do it might be worthwhile.

Pumpkin_King
April 19th, 2019, 11:20 AM
I would be slightly interested in such a project, but that’s a bigger time investment than I can make at the moment, haha.

Astroking112
April 23rd, 2019, 12:57 PM
My apologies for only responding about a week later, but I think that I could elaborate a little more while preparations for the project continue on our end.

I'm not sure what you mean about putting something under the "VC umbrella." You don't need us, and trying to get a consensus about approving a unit inside the C3V, absent the firm structure of the SoV (or something very much like it) is unlikely be successful.

By the "VC umbrella," I meant being recognized by C3V/SoV, both of which are the largest customs projects that currently exist for classic HeroScape. We can make excellent units on our own, but they could be easily overshadowed in that case.

Say, for example, that three years later, someone doesn't like part of a central Sgt. Drake-esque figure that we create. They decide to make their own unit with the sculpt, submit it to SoV, and it eventually passes. Suddenly, all of the scenarios and synergies that we establish in this set don't play nicely with VC anymore. People looking to get into the customs community, which is my personal goal here, will end up being more confused than they otherwise would've been.

I don't think that being accepted by VC is necessary to make a great unit by any stretch of the imagination. However, our goal here isn't only to make great units, but to expand the playerbase for VC and make it more approachable as a whole.

Please just do your thing. I encourage you (whoever it is) to have a real, disciplined organizational structure. I do not think the C3V or the C3G would have been able to be productive for all the years those two have been productive, but for their structure.

The alternative to having an organized large workshop is to have a small one. The SoV is relatively unstructured, and the various map-approving groups have all been unstructured. Which has suited all of them, because they are small.

My sense from FS's post is that a group focused on these may already exist. Great! Make sure it's set up the way you want and have at it. You don't need anything from anyone else, but many of us will be happy to pitch in somehow as needed, if you ask.

I will say that one way this could work is just to put these units together as a slow train to the SoV. Over time, they should all get the C3V/SoV approval you want. It can be done. Otherwise, just don't worry about us at all, and do a good job. :up:

We've been working on plans for getting this done, and we'll set up the project here on the forums when we're ready. I never thought that C3V alone should make all of these units for all of the reasons outlined in this thread, and we'll be happy to involve the community given that it doesn't have to be made within one of the existing structures.

The slow train to SoV is something that we've discussed, to ensure that there won't be overlapping designs or broken synergies added to break the set in the future, but designing for SoV isn't the main goal of the project. My concern there is that these units would be presented individually to the fans (since its custom for SoV approved units to have their own release) instead of as a box set.

I'm curious if there would be any support for a full fledged customs project, similar to C3V, C3G, SoV, ect that primarily worked with unpainted minis. Maybe each figure would have a simple paint guide. I don't know how many people on heroscapers paints, but if enough do it might be worthwhile.

I can't paint to save my life. I'm a little more lenient on some unpainted figures than others (it bothers me only slightly more than a HeroClix base does), but I'm not convinced that there would be enough support for two continuous large creation projects in the long-term.

capsocrates
April 26th, 2019, 12:05 PM
This thread was persuasive. Let me know what I can do to help.

Dad_Scaper
April 26th, 2019, 12:44 PM
This thread was persuasive. Let me know what I can do to help.
I know I would be interested in at least seeing where this conversation was happening. What would the customs look like? Or what would a project look like? Links to those threads, or those whatevers, would be helpful for all those interested.

Lots of good ideas go nowhere, in rooms full of interested people staring at each other and doing nothing.

Pumpkin_King
April 26th, 2019, 01:08 PM
We're mainly having the conversation in discord, at the moment. The link is in my signature. We fully intend on taking the project back to the forums for transparency and archival reasons once we're ready!

Astroking112
May 5th, 2019, 03:29 PM
NecroBlade put up an excellent introduction post to the project here (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55777)! If you're interested, check it out to see how we'll be proceeding with a community-driven Master Set!

TREX
May 20th, 2019, 03:22 PM
My apologies for only responding about a week later, but I think that I could elaborate a little more while preparations for the project continue on our end.

I'm not sure what you mean about putting something under the "VC umbrella." You don't need us, and trying to get a consensus about approving a unit inside the C3V, absent the firm structure of the SoV (or something very much like it) is unlikely be successful.

By the "VC umbrella," I meant being recognized by C3V/SoV, both of which are the largest customs projects that currently exist for classic HeroScape. We can make excellent units on our own, but they could be easily overshadowed in that case.

Say, for example, that three years later, someone doesn't like part of a central Sgt. Drake-esque figure that we create. They decide to make their own unit with the sculpt, submit it to SoV, and it eventually passes. Suddenly, all of the scenarios and synergies that we establish in this set don't play nicely with VC anymore. People looking to get into the customs community, which is my personal goal here, will end up being more confused than they otherwise would've been.

I don't think that being accepted by VC is necessary to make a great unit by any stretch of the imagination. However, our goal here isn't only to make great units, but to expand the playerbase for VC and make it more approachable as a whole.

Please just do your thing. I encourage you (whoever it is) to have a real, disciplined organizational structure. I do not think the C3V or the C3G would have been able to be productive for all the years those two have been productive, but for their structure.

The alternative to having an organized large workshop is to have a small one. The SoV is relatively unstructured, and the various map-approving groups have all been unstructured. Which has suited all of them, because they are small.

My sense from FS's post is that a group focused on these may already exist. Great! Make sure it's set up the way you want and have at it. You don't need anything from anyone else, but many of us will be happy to pitch in somehow as needed, if you ask.

I will say that one way this could work is just to put these units together as a slow train to the SoV. Over time, they should all get the C3V/SoV approval you want. It can be done. Otherwise, just don't worry about us at all, and do a good job. :up:

We've been working on plans for getting this done, and we'll set up the project here on the forums when we're ready. I never thought that C3V alone should make all of these units for all of the reasons outlined in this thread, and we'll be happy to involve the community given that it doesn't have to be made within one of the existing structures.

The slow train to SoV is something that we've discussed, to ensure that there won't be overlapping designs or broken synergies added to break the set in the future, but designing for SoV isn't the main goal of the project. My concern there is that these units would be presented individually to the fans (since its custom for SoV approved units to have their own release) instead of as a box set.

I'm curious if there would be any support for a full fledged customs project, similar to C3V, C3G, SoV, ect that primarily worked with unpainted minis. Maybe each figure would have a simple paint guide. I don't know how many people on heroscapers paints, but if enough do it might be worthwhile.

I can't paint to save my life. I'm a little more lenient on some unpainted figures than others (it bothers me only slightly more than a HeroClix base does), but I'm not convinced that there would be enough support for two continuous large creation projects in the long-term.

Even though there are some reservations about painting figures or using figures that would need painted, I dont really see it as being too crazy of an idea about using all the unpainted minis in these sets. If VC is using some unpainted minis and even 3d printed minis in upcoming releases, along with the mods and paints of C3G minis here lately, I dont see the problem with doing it here either. Seems a shame to only use 1/3 of the figures in the boxes. Those are my pennies. I personally dont have the time to make new characters but I wouldnt mind reusing my painted figures with you guys cards.

All Your Pie
May 20th, 2019, 06:37 PM
For what it's worth, TREX, I tend to agree. The only particularly strong reason for not using the unpainted figures in each box is to attempt SoV compatibility, which I don't find to be a compelling need for a separate project. Using all the miniatures would also allow us to design them by packaged set rather than by combining all three, or at the very least allow people with only one set to have a lot of playable options even if that box isn't itself designed as the master set.

Among project leads, though, I'm in the minority in this point. Rest assured, however, that I intend to push the project into designing every figure in these boxes eventually, and ensure that those designs maintain the same standard of quality as the ones that came before. Similarly, I intend to push against weaker interpretations of the figures that have to make logical leaps in order to justify their unpainted status.

flameslayer93
May 20th, 2019, 06:42 PM
Some leads are eager to work on the rest of the minis, likely by applying paint, but for right now the goal is to get AotV done. There’s enough units to work on anyway. :)

We will be watching what the C3V/SoV plans to do with unpainted/modded/printed figures in the future though.

superfrog
May 20th, 2019, 08:30 PM
The current position of VC is that any unpainted alternatives should be in addition to a widely available painted figure.

So far, we have announced 2 alternates (the common and the uncommon tree guys) in order to augment their availability, so that the faction as a whole will be playable by our current fans.

I hope to see really cool designs with these AotP unpainted figures, but VC's unpainted alternatives don't signal a shift away from our commitment to using painted figures.

Astroking112
May 20th, 2019, 08:51 PM
Even though there are some reservations about painting figures or using figures that would need painted, I dont really see it as being too crazy of an idea about using all the unpainted minis in these sets. If VC is using some unpainted minis and even 3d printed minis in upcoming releases, along with the mods and paints of C3G minis here lately, I dont see the problem with doing it here either. Seems a shame to only use 1/3 of the figures in the boxes. Those are my pennies. I personally dont have the time to make new characters but I wouldnt mind reusing my painted figures with you guys cards.

There is some support in the current cast of Pod Leaders to continue the project to finish the Arena of the Planeswalkers sets after we complete the designs that could fit into VC as-is, but the goal of the project is to make a VC-compliant Master Set. As such, the core of our project involves living shadows, elementals, illusions, statues, and other things that are meant to be unpainted.

If there is a significant interest for a community project using figures designed to be painted, then I would encourage those people to start the project as they see fit. That is inherently not our goal here, though. We want to introduce people into VC and expand it, so we are following some of the same ideology.

For what it's worth, TREX, I tend to agree. The only particularly strong reason for not using the unpainted figures in each box is to attempt SoV compatibility, which I don't find to be a compelling need for a separate project. Using all the miniatures would also allow us to design them by packaged set rather than by combining all three, or at the very least allow people with only one set to have a lot of playable options even if that box isn't itself designed as the master set.

Among project leads, though, I'm in the minority in this point. Rest assured, however, that I intend to push the project into designing every figure in these boxes eventually, and ensure that those designs maintain the same standard of quality as the ones that came before. Similarly, I intend to push against weaker interpretations of the figures that have to make logical leaps in order to justify their unpainted status.

SoV submissions have only been discussed as a potential way of ensuring that VC compatibility is met on both ends. I also hope that no designers will try to design solely for SoV, and that they will prioritize making great (and justified) designs first and foremost.

I have no qualms with the project expanding onto the less justifiable miniatures after the core set is done, so long as the integrity of the main Master Set is kept intact. Any of those figures should be a bonus to the core set in my eyes; a fantastic one for people to take advantage of, but nothing that makes our shadows not shadows or that doesn't meet the same level of quality we're aiming to achieve.

Pumpkin_King
May 21st, 2019, 11:48 AM
I absolutely intend on helping the project use the rest of the minis in the box once the VC compatible ones are mostly done.

NecroBlade
May 24th, 2019, 02:53 PM
Yep, everything that's listed so far will be "officially" part of the Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set. The rest of the figures will be designed for fun (and in a way a sort of completeness) afterward.