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Thor
August 30th, 2006, 11:49 AM
After reading a comment in the "Favorite Wave Yet" thread about wave 3 (and wave 1) being the only expansions with 6 common squads I got to thinking. I was going to say wave 2 also had 6 common squads but it isn't true, it had 5 and 1 common hero. That's what triggered my realization of how lacking common heros are right now. After wave 4 and 5 we got a nice boost to unique squads, but since RttFF and Utgar's Rage last year we havn't seen even 1 additional common hero added to the game. Wave 6 doesn't look to have any either.

So what's the deal? We have 2 common heros and that is it for now. Is wave 7 going to include a new common hero? The next terrain expansion? We still have yet to see that Marro riding the big hulking creature in Thor's Journal, maybe he could be a common hero? A jungle set with him would be pretty awesome imo. Any thoughts or speculation on the matter? I like what the common heros ofer to the game and wouldn't mind seeing more in the future.

Aranas
August 30th, 2006, 11:54 AM
Present common hero: Swog and Dumutef

markwars
August 30th, 2006, 11:55 AM
I want some mounted knight common heroes.

kenjib
August 30th, 2006, 12:00 PM
The common tag is much less useful for heroes because you do not get the benefit of "refilling" your active squad with reinforcements when one of them is killed. That's one of the primary benefits of common. I think the main thing that makes common useful for a hero is if they bond with a common squad like the swog rider. Does anyone ever include multiple Dumutef guards in their army?

Aranas
August 30th, 2006, 12:03 PM
The common tag is much less useful for heroes because you do not get the benefit of "refilling" your active squad with reinforcements when one of them is killed. That's one of the primary benefits of common. I think the main thing that makes common useful for a hero is if they bond with a common squad like the swog rider. Does anyone ever include multiple Dumutef guards in their army?
But you do not loose your order marker when the hero is killed (if you still have others)! This is quite an advantage!

Aranas

jcb231
August 30th, 2006, 01:04 PM
Does anyone ever include multiple Dumutef guards in their army?

(raises hand)

Heck yeah!

Never underestimate the Dumutefs! Solid attack and defense values for just 25 points, a nice little boost to adjacent wolves, and a great figure to use on road-heavy maps (or castles!).

I have enough Dums to field a 200 point force now, and sometimes I wish I had more.

Thor
August 30th, 2006, 01:25 PM
I was also thinking of even cheaper common heros then we have now, maybe some on foot to fill up any spare points you may have left when drafting. I absolutely hate having 20 points left and just missing out on being able to draft anything else.

Now I know common heros arn't quite as useful as unique heros since they don't have the multiple hit points, and they arn't as useful as common squads since they only have 1 figure attacking. However I was thinking if you have 15-20 points left why not be given the option draft a crummy common hero? Sure he may not help a ton, but he would be more useful then not being able to draft anything at all. And with bonding and other figure enhancements they actually can be pretty good choices.

allskulls
August 30th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Check out hextr1p's Horgle Project (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=1610&start=0).

Not common heroes and nothing under 25 but still good filler :D

I have a couple common heroes in my custom section and will be adding more.

reapersaurus
August 30th, 2006, 01:41 PM
The problem with common heroes is that they are typically too weak or fragile to bother spending a precious Order Marker on once battle has started, until they are one of the last units left in your army.

I'd REALLY like to see common heroes by used so that they can enter the fray alongside squads and unique heroes.

To do this, I think Bonding is just about a MUST.

And Thor - there's no way that Undead Giant is a common hero.....

allskulls
August 30th, 2006, 01:46 PM
The problem with common heroes is that they are typically too weak or fragile to bother spending a precious Order Marker on once battle has started, until they are one of the last units left in your army.

I'd REALLY like to see common heroes by used so that they can enter the fray alongside squads and unique heroes.

To do this, I think Bonding is just about a MUST.

Totally agree here. Last tourny I had a couple of Dumetefs in a match against Oogie that never recieved an order marker. Why did I put them on my team? Just for fun...but I didn't know I'd be facing ODB with that team :D

Thor
August 30th, 2006, 02:10 PM
The problem with common heroes is that they are typically too weak or fragile to bother spending a precious Order Marker on once battle has started, until they are one of the last units left in your army.

I'd REALLY like to see common heroes by used so that they can enter the fray alongside squads and unique heroes.

To do this, I think Bonding is just about a MUST.

And Thor - there's no way that Undead Giant is a common hero.....
I am aware of this. I was one of the people back on HS.net sitting right along side you pointing out that big disadvantage common heros have. That's why I said make some more really cheap common heros to give a few extra options when you are low on points and don't have enough to draft a 40 point+ common squad. I would rather have a 15 point common hero then 15 points not getting used at all. At least then I can send him in first to do a little damage before going down, or start placing order markers on him when he is the last man standing. I know this limited role may not be the best, but it at least would be a way to get more common heros in the game. And with all the figures that have bonding it's not like they couldn't throw a couple more common heros into the mix with it.

And lastly I agree, I highly doubt the Marro on the huge beast will be a common hero, but I can always wish can't I? :wink:

markwars
August 30th, 2006, 02:52 PM
What would a 5 point common hero be? A potato farmer? A milk maid? A small dog?

Hendal
August 30th, 2006, 03:07 PM
Thor,

I hear you about the odd points, in our group if you have picked any common squads we let each other take just 1 snakes or 2 blade grunts to round out the points, house rule I understand and no good at a tourney, but that way you can all have the same point or close. Now with the one snake you are still down 7 points or so but better then 20 or picking something for your army that you don't really want.
Both common heros are only 25 pts.

Aranas
August 30th, 2006, 03:16 PM
Thor,

I hear you about the odd points, in our group if you have picked any common squads we let each other take just 1 snakes or 2 blade grunts to round out the points, house rule I understand and no good at a tourney, but that way you can all have the same point or close. Now with the one snake you are still down 7 points or so but better then 20 or picking something for your army that you don't really want.
Both common heros are only 25 pts.
Humm, this is an interesting house rule. Easy to implement. Lets say I have 20 points left. Why not get two Blade Gruts (40/2) for 20 points or one Izumi Samurai (60/3) or one Tarn for 13 points (50/4) or one 4th Mass for 18 points, etc.

Aranas

Thor
August 30th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Hmm, not a bad house rule, not bad at all. I may definetly have to try that out next time I play a game. Thanks for the suggestion Hendal.

jcb231
August 30th, 2006, 04:30 PM
I was also thinking of even cheaper common heros then we have now, maybe some on foot to fill up any spare points you may have left when drafting. I absolutely hate having 20 points left and just missing out on being able to draft anything else.

Now I know common heros arn't quite as useful as unique heros since they don't have the multiple hit points, and they arn't as useful as common squads since they only have 1 figure attacking. However I was thinking if you have 15-20 points left why not be given the option draft a crummy common hero? Sure he may not help a ton, but he would be more useful then not being able to draft anything at all. And with bonding and other figure enhancements they actually can be pretty good choices.

I would love some super-cheap cards, common or otherwise. I'm a big Guilty fan because of his cheap cost and ability to fit into a lot of armies, but I think we can go even cheaper. I'd love to see a two figure limited-value squad for 15 points, or a really cheap common hero that can bond or move-bond with Knights or Vikings or some other squad. I think Hasbro really needs to come out with a few figures in 25 and under category, or make the idea of buyng "extra" common squad figures with your leftover points and actual power certain cards may have.

Some suggestions, off the top of my head:

PALACE GUARDS...2 figures, common squad, Jandar
Human
Guards
Valiant
Medium
Life 1
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 1
Defense 2
Brace the Door: for each palace guard standing on the inside of any fortress door, add one defense die to the value on the door's card.
Defensive Strike: When a palace guard is using the Brace the Door power and the door is destroyed by an adjacent enemy figure, that Palace Guard may immediately attack the enemy figure.

I figure a squad like this could come in at 25 points or less, but still manage to fill a niche...and certainly be better than wasting the points.

Or this...

HOVERBIKE SCOUT...double-based, unique hero, Vydar
Human
Scout
Large
Life 3
Move 8
Range 4
Attack 2
Defense 3
Agent Homing Device: Start the game with four homing markers on this card. Instead of attacking, you may place a homing marker on any enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces. Whenever that figure moves, you may move any two agent figures you control up to the move value printed on their card. If an agent you control attacks a marked figure, add one to their attack value.
Hover: Hoverbike Scout may cross water or molten lava without stopping, never rolls for lava damage, suffers no movement penalites from snow or ice, and never rolls for falling damage.
Disengage: Hoverbike Scout never rolls for leaving engagement attacks.

DEPUTY JONES....Jandar, unique hero
Human
Deputy
Medium
Life 2
Move 6
Range 6
Attack 2
Defense 2
Lawman Bonding: first take a turn with any Jandar lawman you control
Swift Vengeance: If any Jandar lawman you control within 6 clear sight spaces is destroyed, Deputy may immediately move and attack with +1 attack and +1 move.

jcb231
August 30th, 2006, 04:31 PM
What would a 5 point common hero be? A potato farmer? A milk maid? A small dog?

I would totally shell out money for a squad of peasants with pitchforks and/or torches.

Eclipse
August 30th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Common Heroes are nothing more than Squad members that can only move one at a time. They pretty much lack all the benefits that come from being a unique or a squad. There's not a lot of them because they're really just not worth drafting. Plus they stand out funny when you have multiples as there is no variation within the horde.

Hendal
August 30th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Aranas,

Your right it works great, but we only do it with squads of commons you pick, so the samara and the tarn are out, that would offset the unique card,

But the blade grunts or the 4th line would both be perfect for this

Thor - no problem, hope it works for your group ( after you really kick you buddies butt all day, he may say "you know what -- no you can't have that one extra MM ", which has only happened a few times.)


JCB - I like the palace gaurds,

Maybe like a hero that bonds with one of the weaker not used much troops, like say the zettian gaurds, make em cheap and stuff, but you risk him dieing and wasting the marker, so it is risky to use them, I don't know but I like your idea.

I would really like to see a 20 pt. card , cause it seems like that is the # we end up with a lot. I also like guilty as that 30 pt. guy you pick cause that is all the points that are left.

Aranas
August 30th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Aranas,

Your right it works great, but we only do it with squads of commons you pick, so the samara and the tarn are out, that would offset the unique card,

But the blade grunts or the 4th line would both be perfect for this
Yes, I though so Hendal but didn't write it. I was thinking:
1) you can get one extra figure of a common squad you already have in your army
2) you can get one figure of a common squad no one has drafted (so, as an example, you take a Blade Grut army card but with only two figures on it for 20 points, or one for 10 points)
3) you can get one figure of a unique squad no one has drafted (so you take a Tarn army card but with only one figure on it for 13 points)

Aranas

thehandofzarquon
August 30th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Common Heroes are nothing more than Squad members that can only move one at a time. They pretty much lack all the benefits that come from being a unique or a squad. There's not a lot of them because they're really just not worth drafting. Plus they stand out funny when you have multiples as there is no variation within the horde.Indeed, although there is no benefit to being a Unique Army Card... only drawbacks (can't draft more than one, affected by powers like Mindshackle and Rod of Negation...)

Regardless... I was beginning to think about allowing a player to split his actions across mutiple common heroes, thus... you could move with one Swog and attack with another, move two of them, attack with two of them... or move and attack with a single Swog...

Hmm. Not sure if I'd want it to work on bonding though.

Of course, I was also considering similar rules for common squads too, move one squad, attack with another or move and attack with a single squad. Of course, that would mean I'd have to find something for heroes too... hrm...

CornPuff
August 30th, 2006, 05:42 PM
remember, the utgar flagbearer makes reference to moving 2 heroes that follow utgar in his stead. Its probably no coincidence that both common heroes so far follow utgar.

You also forget that having more than one hero allows you to pick which one use when you reveal your order marker. This is a powerful advantage in the right hands.

Maybe the problem is just with the 2 heroes we have so far.

thehandofzarquon
August 30th, 2006, 05:53 PM
remember, the utgar flagbearer makes reference to moving 2 heroes that follow utgar in his stead. Its probably no coincidence that both common heroes so far follow utgar.

You also forget that having more than one hero allows you to pick which one use when you reveal your order marker. This is a powerful advantage in the right hands.

Maybe the problem is just with the 2 heroes we have so far.Perhaps, the Dumutef seems like he could be effective, 5/5 for 25 points is nothing to sneeze at, certainly, but I've never had luck with them.

Still, that WoA leader looking figure would have been a perfect oppportunity to have a new common hero outside of Utgar. Not to mention a new Ullar Warlord for the Armocs to bond too... of course, that would make the Warriors of Ashra a 2-person common squad...

Agent Minivann
August 31st, 2006, 01:54 AM
What would a 5 point common hero be? A potato farmer? A milk maid? A small dog?

Reminds me. I've been thinking of buying some farm animals and making some farmscape rules. Basically wandering 0/1 neutral units that you can attack when you are feeling really mean. Otherwise, randmly moving LOS obstructions.

Milk maid, eh? Have you been looking at your avatar or something?

Agent Minivann
August 31st, 2006, 01:57 AM
PALACE GUARDS...2 figures, common squad, Jandar
Human
Guards
Valiant
Medium
Life 1
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 1
Defense 2
Brace the Door: for each palace guard standing on the inside of any fortress door, add one defense die to the value on the door's card.
Defensive Strike: When a palace guard is using the Brace the Door power and the door is destroyed by an adjacent enemy figure, that Palace Guard may immediately attack the enemy figure.

I figure a squad like this could come in at 25 points or less, but still manage to fill a niche...and certainly be better than wasting the points.

Or this...

HOVERBIKE SCOUT...double-based, unique hero, Vydar
Human
Scout
Large
Life 3
Move 8
Range 4
Attack 2
Defense 3
Agent Homing Device: Start the game with four homing markers on this card. Instead of attacking, you may place a homing marker on any enemy figure within 4 clear sight spaces. Whenever that figure moves, you may move any two agent figures you control up to the move value printed on their card. If an agent you control attacks a marked figure, add one to their attack value.
Hover: Hoverbike Scout may cross water or molten lava without stopping, never rolls for lava damage, suffers no movement penalites from snow or ice, and never rolls for falling damage.
Disengage: Hoverbike Scout never rolls for leaving engagement attacks.

DEPUTY JONES....Jandar, unique hero
Human
Deputy
Medium
Life 2
Move 6
Range 6
Attack 2
Defense 2
Lawman Bonding: first take a turn with any Jandar lawman you control
Swift Vengeance: If any Jandar lawman you control within 6 clear sight spaces is destroyed, Deputy may immediately move and attack with +1 attack and +1 move.
I like these a lot, but I'd have to say the hoverbike guy should be at least 30 points. He would just be too useful to be under 25.

Kepler
August 31st, 2006, 09:01 AM
Aranas,

Your right it works great, but we only do it with squads of commons you pick, so the samara and the tarn are out, that would offset the unique card,

But the blade grunts or the 4th line would both be perfect for this
Yes, I though so Hendal but didn't write it. I was thinking:
1) you can get one extra figure of a common squad you already have in your army
2) you can get one figure of a common squad no one has drafted (so, as an example, you take a Blade Grut army card but with only two figures on it for 20 points, or one for 10 points)
3) you can get one figure of a unique squad no one has drafted (so you take a Tarn army card but with only one figure on it for 13 points)

Aranas

I like this idea.

Eclipse
August 31st, 2006, 11:23 AM
Common Heroes are nothing more than Squad members that can only move one at a time. They pretty much lack all the benefits that come from being a unique or a squad. There's not a lot of them because they're really just not worth drafting. Plus they stand out funny when you have multiples as there is no variation within the horde.Indeed, although there is no benefit to being a Unique Army Card... only drawbacks (can't draft more than one, affected by powers like Mindshackle and Rod of Negation...)


The only benefit to being a Unique Hero is that you can have multiple life points. I doubt there will ever be a common hero with multiple life, just to keep people from confusing who took what damage. It keeps things simple that way. So that's the benefit of being Unique in my mind.

thehandofzarquon
August 31st, 2006, 01:08 PM
Common Heroes are nothing more than Squad members that can only move one at a time. They pretty much lack all the benefits that come from being a unique or a squad. There's not a lot of them because they're really just not worth drafting. Plus they stand out funny when you have multiples as there is no variation within the horde.Indeed, although there is no benefit to being a Unique Army Card... only drawbacks (can't draft more than one, affected by powers like Mindshackle and Rod of Negation...)


The only benefit to being a Unique Hero is that you can have multiple life points. I doubt there will ever be a common hero with multiple life, just to keep people from confusing who took what damage. It keeps things simple that way. So that's the benefit of being Unique in my mind.Oh yeah... dunno how I forgot about that. Yeah, I guess there is an advantage to being unique... if you are a hero :P

Hendal
August 31st, 2006, 01:45 PM
Aranas,

We only let you pick extra of a common squad you alraeady have, so we never pick just one or 2 blade grunts ( if we don't have any other blade grunts in our army yet ) if we have 10 or 20 pts left over. But if my army did already have blade grunts, then having one or 2 extra works into the game fine, no problems at all really.

Aranas
August 31st, 2006, 02:31 PM
I think I understand pretty much what you and your playgroup are doing Hendal (and covered by the option #1) and I like the idea very much. I thank you for it. I do not like, for now, playing with custom figures, so your option is better to me than 10-20 points custom figures.

but still, I think the two additionnal options I'm offering are worth exploring and not unbalancing for most units.

What do you think?

Aranas

.....I was thinking:
1) you can get one extra figure of a common squad you already have in your army
2) you can get one figure of a common squad no one has drafted (so, as an example, you take a Blade Grut army card but with only two figures on it for 20 points, or one for 10 points)
3) you can get one figure of a unique squad no one has drafted (so you take a Tarn army card but with only one figure on it for 13 points)

Aranas

toddrew
August 31st, 2006, 03:07 PM
I think the Swog Riders are about the perfect example of a common hero. I don't think I've ever put an order marker on one, and use them all the time to great benefit in orc armies. Common heros should be support figures (like the Dumetef are in a more limited fashion) and recipients of bonding or initiators of bonding in order to maximize their usefulness.

And I was going to point out, as CornPuff did, that by spreading out the placement of commons, it really gives one a lot of options when it comes time to activate them, the other big advantage that the commons have over uniques (the other being the much stated ability to activate a full card's worth of squaddies after taking some casualties.)

Hendal
August 31st, 2006, 05:01 PM
Aranas,

I like the ideas, but I play to win, so it would be limiting in the sense your putting an order marker on something w/ only 1 tarn, or just 2 blade grunts, not that it wouldn't be worth while, I just wouldn't want 1 tarn going into battle, when I could have an extra 1 or 2 guys in a common squad I already have and can use to get a lot more milage off the common squad.
I think your idea would work fine, never really thought of it before. When you have 2 or 3 squads of commons ( say the blade grunt ) then having a extra 1 or 2 in the back can help a lot in your whole battle plan. Having 1 extra tarn, or 2 solitary blade grunts w/ no other orcs on the field isn't going to help nearly as much, ( IMO ).


WOW, Canada, I live in Costa RIca cause I hate the cold, so I havn't seen snow in over 14 year and hope to keep it that way - hey in the movies it is great, and when I was a kid I loved it,but I am not a snow person.

Taeblewalker
August 31st, 2006, 06:28 PM
I don't believe anyone said this. One MAJOR benefit of being a *hero*, unique or common, is vs. Chomp! Braxas chomp, Chompy chomp, either one has a higher DC (pardon D20 speak) for a hero!

happyjosiah
August 31st, 2006, 06:37 PM
Of course common heros can't be chomped at all anyway since they are both large.

Thor
August 31st, 2006, 06:41 PM
The real reason I would like to see more common heros is two fold. First off it would be a good way to give people something to draft when they have 25 points or less left to spend. As I said before I would rather have a common hero for 20 points rather than nothing at all. And who knows, when I have no other figures left to activate but that common hero he just might make a difference.

The other reason I would like to see common heros is because there are some figures I just can't see being in squads, yet I wouldn't want them to be unique heros either. Roman War Elephants, Chariots, etc. come to mind. I would the option to have these as stand alone characters, yet be able to field as many as I want in an army. Even for 40 points I think something like this could work if it had the stats to justify the cost. 6 or 7 defense and 4 atk on a 40 pt war elephant? I could see him holding his own against a squad of Grut Warrios with this. Give him a good ability that makes enemies run in fear or something and I think you could really down play the disadvantage common heros currently have. Bonding also would help immensely.

Right now the Swog Rider and Dumutef Guard arn't great, but they definetly have their place. The Swog is actually a viable choice in an orc army even if you have points left to draft more squads of orcs. His bonuses are nice and the fact that he bonds makes him easy to keep up with Grut Archers on the move. The Dumutef, because of his lack of bonding, isn't quite as good, but if you have 25 points left and arn't fielding an orc army he is a decent stand alone character. I wouldn't mind seeing more figures like these. 2 figure squads also should see a few more releases imo. I am not saying a ton, but a few more common heros and 2-man squads would definetly be a welcome addition to the gamer I think.