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ninthdoc
August 4th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Last night I was playing a few games (4) against rychean, when a question came up. Our armies consisted of my Orc Army (Krug, 1 Swog Rider, Nerak, 3x Blade Gruts, 2x Arrow Gruts) and ry was playing his Utgar Army (Mimring, Krug, 2x Arrow Gruts, and 2x Swog Riders - I think).

I had an Orc on a defense glyph and here comes Mimring going after the Orc on the glyph and 2 of his buds behind him. :frustrated: So Mimring blasts away http://www.samizdata.net/~pdeh/smiley_flamethrower.gif and my Orc on the glyph goes down. For those who didn't understand that last smiley, it looked something like this: :nkick: . Followed by my Orc going: :blowup: . Which, incidentally, is what I did.

So then came the problem. I know that the Orc on the glyph definitely felt the Fire Line first, but since it was all the Orcs in the line defending against the single attack, should they still get the benefit of the defense glyph? I've played other minis games in which the defender gets the full benefit of his undamaged defense when defending against an attack that causes damage (CAV2 comes to mind). From a "realism" aspect, what if the Orc on the glyph didn't instantly die because he was a tough guy and managed to die slowly thus helping his buddies out? (Yeah, that last one was a stretch, so sue me. :neener: )

What do you guys (and gals) think? ninthdoc wants to know (LOL). http://www.geocities.com/ninthdoc/Nick_Smiley2.gif

LilNewbie
August 4th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Here is an answer that somewhat applies on the the official Hasbro FAQ:

Mimring uses his Fire Line Special Attack into a crowd. Who gets hit first?
Mimring causes an exception to the "attacker decides" rule. The breath moves from the figure out - so closest to furthest is the order of hit.


I posted that to show that timing of the attack is important. If the orc on the glyph was at the back (or middle) of the line, then all his buds would get the extra bump in Def but as soon as he is killed/removed from the glyph, the bonus goes away. Mims special attack order is set and must attack figs from nearest to farthest. Just my .50. :D

Newb.

Pilgrim
August 4th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Unfortunately, I think lilnewbs right doc. Yet another example of game mechanics not exactly matching "reality" (well, as much reality as there can be in a dragon burning an orc standing on a magic glyph).

Mimring chose . . . . . wisely.

yagyuninja
August 4th, 2006, 04:19 PM
I guess this is a phases of the turn type of question...where's Cornpuff!?

The question comes down to how you resolve deaths in heroscape. One way allows you to keep that defense glyph for all the orcs, one doesn't:

1) After any given attack, all defense die related to that attack are rolled and then wounds/deaths are taken care of.

2) After any given attack, each figure rolls defense and takes wounds/dies independently.

This would also come into play if DW9K blew up a tightly packed group of romans. I've never been in a situation like yours where the answer really matters, so we always pull each guy off the board as they fail their defense rolls. Now I'm going to have to look into it.

EDIT: Looks like lilnewbie pretty much answered the mimring question. guess there is supposed to be an order to the dying.

netherspirit
August 4th, 2006, 04:20 PM
I agree with Newb.

It doesn't really matter that they all get damaged from a single attack roll, they all roll defense separately so they don't all die at the same time. Does that make sense? If you only rolled defense dice once for all orcs in the line then you would be able to make a case, but since they roll defense separately the closest one dies before his buddies and they don't get the bonus.

Pilgrim
August 4th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Definitely 2).

netherspirit
August 4th, 2006, 04:22 PM
Definitely 2).

Yep. Its all done separately.

yagyuninja
August 4th, 2006, 04:24 PM
What about the DW vs. romans example?

Aranas
August 4th, 2006, 04:27 PM
I do not remember where's the answer to this. But let's take the AE example:
When an Airborne Elite uses his Grenade Special Attack into a crowded area, who gets hit first?
The target always rolls defense first. Then the attacker determines the order in which the other figures roll defense dice.
Suppose you have Raelin in the middle and four friendly Vikings around her. I believe that if the target (Raelin) dies from the attack then the friendly Vikings would not benefit from her aura for their defence roll.

Pilgrim
August 4th, 2006, 04:28 PM
First you roll for the targeted Roman. Resolve this role (either he lives or dies)

Then you roll for adjacent Romans.

For each Roman that dies, that potentially lowers the defense of adjacent Romans.

The big question on DW9K - who gets to choose which adjacent romans roll in which order - attacker or defender?

I'd say defender picks, since attacker rolled once already for attack and is not attacking the adjacent romans separately.

EDIT: Well, based on the above post, I suppose that the attacker chooses what order the romans roll for defense. Where did you get that quote?

Pilgrim
August 4th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Or I suppose we could read the official FAQ:

Who decides what order the adjacent figures get hit when Deathwalker uses is Explosion Special Attack?
The target always rolls defense first. Then the attacker chooses the order in which the other figures are hit.

LilNewbie
August 4th, 2006, 04:33 PM
The quote,

When an Airborne Elite uses his Grenade Special Attack into a crowded area, who gets hit first?
The target always rolls defense first. Then the attacker determines the order in which the other figures roll defense dice.

is from the official Heroscape FAQ.

Newb.

yagyuninja
August 4th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Well cool. That clears stuff up Aranas! (and everyone else!)

Revdyer
August 4th, 2006, 04:39 PM
I, too, agree with Newb. about the Mimring question. As to the DW one, the attacker decides the order of the attacks and therefore, possible deaths (and would, I guess, pick the one on the glyph first usually but is not required to). If the figure on the glyph is destroyed, all the attacks following would be at one less defence. At least that's the way, I think, we'd play it.

R˙chean
August 4th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Mimring really didnt choose all that wisely becasue on Ninth's very next turn....he was able to move Krug to defense Glyph with beast bonding...Attack mimring and give him three wounds...then the arrows moved to high ground and took Mimring out..

I should have firelined from a space back so Krug couldnt close....Greedy me saw 4 figures lined up.

Good lord all these freaking games played and I still have my head up my backside....

Good Games Doc !!! :-D

CornPuff
August 4th, 2006, 05:00 PM
Yup, its number 2.

Its a good time to pull out the explosion rules as well.
These characters have explosive attacks: Johnny Shotgun Sullivan, James Murphy, DW9k, AE, Jotun, and of course DW7k.

The rules are always the same:

When an Airborne Elite uses his Grenade Special Attack into a crowded area, who gets hit first?
The target always rolls defense first. Then the attacker determines the order in which the other figures roll defense dice.

Bannister
August 4th, 2006, 05:00 PM
Maybe something like this has been covered before while I was wasting time in an Off-Topic thread, but let me put this Hypothetical to you.

Let's say it was Thorgrim standing on the Glyph followed by three Agents. If Thorgrim get's wasted first you lose the glyph but if you put his figure on the Agent's card, do they immediately gain the defense for the roll against Mimring?


When Thorgrim is destroyed, place this figure on any unique Army Card. Thorgrim's Spirit adds 1 to the defense number on that card.

Bannister

Pilgrim
August 4th, 2006, 05:03 PM
I'd say yes. They get buffed by Thor immediately.

Things move fast in the spirit realm.

LilNewbie
August 4th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Yes, they would receive the bonus since you remove him and apply any situations from his death immediately. That includes the effects of the glyph bonus going away and his power being triggered by his death.

Newb.

Bannister
August 4th, 2006, 05:05 PM
I figured that would be the case. Thanks for the confirmations.

:D

Bannister


EDIT: The more I think about this situation the more I think of odd situations. If it is instantaneous then you would also loose any defensive boosts by other figures like Raelin, Tornak, etc.... immediately after they are destroyed. Or is there a reason they would continue through out the attack phase in any of those instances?

Aranas
August 5th, 2006, 01:39 PM
...If it is instantaneous then you would also loose any defensive boosts by other figures like Raelin, Tornak, etc.... immediately after they are destroyed. Or is there a reason they would continue through out the attack phase in any of those instances?
Yes, the boost ends immediately, as discussed on page one. :wink:

...and my Quote was indeed from the official Heroscape FAQ. Sorry for my very late answer!

K/H_Addict
August 5th, 2006, 01:54 PM
i say no they shouldn't get it if the first guy was the one on the glyph and he died. If he died, he should get removed from the game before continuing the attack, therefore teh glyph is vacant, and the other guys are SOL... :2cents:

jcb231
August 5th, 2006, 10:46 PM
The official answer is pretty clear. I like it when these sort of threads are wrapped up quickly for a change! Awesome work on dragging that info up guys.

I didn't realize so many folks hadn't noticed that in the FAQ.....my group's been taking full advantage of these rules for a long time. When throwing a grenade or shooting an explosion or anything like that we always attack the buffer first, just to make the others drop easier.