Proposed Knockback Rules

[GreyOwl]

How about Huge figures get a bonnus of some sort, and anything larger than Huge are not subject to knockback at all?

[allskulls]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

How about Huge figures get a bonnus of some sort, and anything larger than Huge are not subject to knockback at all?

Or maybe a bonus for any figure defending against a smaller figure and a figure 2 sizes larger than another figure is not subject to KB?

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by allskulls

Or maybe a bonus for any figure defending against a smaller figure and a figure 2 sizes larger than another figure is not subject to KB?

Yes! I like that better! That makes a lot of sense for normal attacks. Was the decision made not to include knockback for special attacks? Because for some of those (explosions) it really shouldn't matter how big the attacking figure is.

[IAmBatman]

I changed it to include all attacks, by popular demand.
You guys make some good points about size - I figure I'll change it to give a bonus in these situations to Huge figures, and to stipulate that only small, medium, large, and huge figures are affected. It's not like we have to worry about taking up too much room, since we have rulebook sized space to work with here.
GreyOwl, I'll specify in the double space rules section that you choose which hex leads but cannot turn him once you start moving him (I don't see Knockback causing the characters to flip around midair like that).
That's a good question about water - I'm thinking "yes" right now, and with no damage penalty.
Fliers don't move any differently when Knocked Back - all figures affected by KB move the same. If the flier was still flying in a controlled manner when affected by KB, they could quite probably avoid most of the KB in the first place.
I thought Nether's rules that I included under the additional rules section were pretty clear about how to handle elevations - but I'll add in a bit so you know to count only spaces and not the height of tiles.
I made the changes in the titles on With and Without Superstrength. Those were just typos.
The intent in this was for a lot of Knockback, yes. That's why they're optional rules, after all. :P I probably wouldn't play with them all the time, but I would sometimes, and when I did, I'd want some Knockback fun. That said, how often do you actually roll 8 skulls on an attack roll? And, besides, if you send your non superstrong guy against a guy with Superstrength able to roll 8 skulls on an attack, you kind of deserve to be Knocked Back pretty far, IMO.
I did mean, when using Knockback as an attack, that both figures roll their attack number. How else did you read it? Basically my thought was that one character runs at another and the other tries to attack them back and whoever wins the scrum decides whether or not there's a Knockback. I thought if the targeted figure is rolling for shields, they're going to lose that one far too often. Both figures rolling for skulls evens the odds somewhat. Is there a way to word this better so there's no confusion over my intent here?
I'm reluctant to have bonuses soley based on size, just b/c special attacks are such an unaccounted for variable, and superstrength lies mostly in medium figures. I think it's enough to give Huge figures a bonus for their weight similar to the bonus superstrong figures get, and to stipulate that figures larger than huge are not affected (thus Galactus has nothing to worry about). If it's a small guy attacking a large one, but he's superstrong and has a tremendous special attack, why wouldn't he be able to send a large guy off into space just as well as a medium figure attempting knockback on the large guy would?

[GreyOwl]

I still like the idea of getting a bonus based on relative size, at least for normal attacks, and putting a cap on 2 sizes different. If you have 2 figures, for example, that are the size of Galactus then one should be able to knock the other back in my opinion. Of course, this logic doesn't necessarily make sense for special attacks, so I'm not sure how to handle that.

The example I was thinking of as far as counting spaces and running into terrain that is not taller than the figure knocked back is like this:

You have two figures, A and B, both 5 tall. Figure A knocks back figure B. Right behind B is an increase of elevation of 2. So to be knocked back onto the next space, it would take 3 spaces, right?. If A only knocks B back 1-2 spaces, what happens? B can't go back onto the space and they don't take damage since the ledge isn't taller than the figure.

[IAmBatman]

I think for Knockback you'd be somewhat flying through the air if you're going to get Knocked Back that far. So I'd say you would ignore elevations lower than the height of the figure. I originally read Nether's rules as saying that, but I guess they don't really specify one way or another, so next time I take a crack at revising these, I'll add in something about that.
I'd prefer not to deal with Galactus sized figure stipulations until we get one. I think it's enough to say that none of the figure sizes we have now could Knock Back Galactus. If we ever get our hands on a Galactus or two, I could certainly see the need for writing "Galactic Knockback" rules, but I think it's ok for those to be separate, as I think they'll need to be slightly different just due to the sheer size we're talking and gravity concerns. I'm not even sure right now how figures that large would move, or how many spaces they would inhabit, so I can't see working them into these current KB rules.

[rdhight]

[quote="IAmBatman"]

If the differential in skulls is greater than 3 in favor of the attacking figure, add one additional space to the Knockback for each skull that increases the differential beyond three. If the targeted figure is moved at least one space from Knockback, the attacking figure must be moved to the space previously occupied by the targeted figure.

Maybe this is where the size advantage could go-- small figures take knockback from the third skull on, medium from the fourth skull on like you have now, large from the fifth skull on, and huge from the sixth skull on. That could represent that it's more difficult to get a bigger character moving whether you have super strength or not.

[IAmBatman]

I'll look into the size stuff, since you all seem in favor of it. I'm just worried that these rules are getting a tad tooo complex, and that it will take out a lot of the gameplay fun and ease.
That said, I really do want to make some nice and polished rules, so I'll keep on it.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'll look into the size stuff, since you all seem in favor of it. I'm just worried that these rules are getting a tad tooo complex, and that it will take out a lot of the gameplay fun and ease.
That said, I really do want to make some nice and polished rules, so I'll keep on it.

And we haven't even approached the heart of darkness... KNOCKBACK AND LADDERS! OH PLEASE DEAR GOD NO!

Here's another one to tide you over until the epic Battle of the Ladder: suppose I'm standing on the edge of a 20-tile-high cliff and my buddy is standing down below, on the hex I would fall to if I jumped off. You nail me with a mighty blow and knock me back, and because you want to do extra damage, you direct me to the hex where my ally is standing. Now I cannot enter the hex he's in, so we would each roll one undefended die attack die against ourselves. I get that. But I would not fall off the cliff or take falling damage? Ugh.

If you're doing a rulebook add-on, you should also have rules for jumping off a cliff and landing on someone's head. I suggest that when you fall on someone, you should subtract their height when checking for falling damage. That way you can use your enemy as a cushion.

[IAmBatman]

Not really sure how ladders would go, except that if their elevation is higher than the figure, the figure takes damage. Here's my newest revision of the Knockback rules, though, that hopefully answer all your concerns!
If not, feel free to chime in.
Oh, and I didn't give bonuses for size differential, but I did give bonuses/penalties based on the size of the affected figures.

Originally Posted by KnockBack

KNOCKBACK AS AN ATTACK
Before moving you may choose to declare that, instead of attacking this turn, you are attempting to knock a figure back. Count the number of spaces between your figure and the targeted figure at the closest point. This will be known as the Momentum number.

To attempt Knockback as an attack, you must have a clear path to the targeted figure and enough movement to land on the space occupied by the target figure. Move your figure adjacent to the targeted figure.

Each figure should roll a number of combat die they would roll in a normal attack, with the attacking figure adding a number of combat die equal to the Momentum number to its attack. Any Huge figures and figures with Superstrength (indicated by the "S" symbol at the bottom of a unit's Army Card) each also add two combat dice to their rolls, large figures add one combat die to their rolls, and small figures subtract one combat die from their rolls.

If the attacking figure rolls 1 to 3 skulls more than the targeted figure, it results in Knockback of 1 space. If the differential in skulls is greater than 3 in favor of the attacking figure, add one additional space to the Knockback for each skull that increases the differential beyond three.

If the targeted figure is moved at least one space from Knockback, the attacking figure must be moved to the space previously occupied by the targeted figure. In these instances, if the attacking figure or the targeted figure is double based, then the attacking figure must occupy at least one space previously occupied by the targeted figure. If both figures are double spaced, the attacking figure must occupy both spaces previously occupied by the targeted figure.

KNOCKBACK AS A SIDE EFFECT
When figures with Superstrength attack, it may result in a Knockback Side Effect.

KNOCKBACK AS A SIDE EFFECT ON FIGURES WITHOUT SUPERSTRENGTH
After a figure with Superstrength attacks an enemy figure without Superstrength, if the defending figure receives at least 1 wound, the attacker may move the defending figure an amount of spaces equal to the number of skulls rolled minus 2.

If the defending figure is Large, subtract 3 from the number of skulls rolled when counting for Knockback. If the defending figure is Huge, subtract 4 from the number of skulls rolled when counting for Knockback. If the defending figure is Small, add 1 to the number of skulls rolled when counting for Knockback.

KNOCKBACK AS A SIDE EFFECT ON FIGURES WITH SUPERSTRENGTH
After a figure with Superstrength attacks an enemy figure that also has Superstrength, if the defending figure receives at least 1 wound, the attacker may move the defending figure an amount of spaces equal to the number of skulls rolled minus 4.

If the defending figure is Large, subtract 5 from the number of skulls rolled when counting for Knockback. If the defending figure is Huge, subtract 6 from the number of skulls rolled when counting for Knockback. If the defending figure is Small, add 1 to the number of skulls rolled when counting for Knockback.

ADDITIONAL KNOCKBACK (ATTACK AND SIDE EFFECT) RULES FOR ALL FIGURES
If any figure would be affected by Knocked Back this turn, the figure's controller that caused the Knockback controls the path of the Knockback. When moving a figure affected by Knockback, each movement space must increase the distance between the attacking figure and defending figure.

If more than one figure is affected by Knockback in a single attack, the attacker chooses the order in which they are affected.

If the Knockback would cause the figure to go down elevation, roll for falling damage accordingly. If the figure would hit a higher elevation, move the figure up onto the level as long as it is lower than the figure's height, ignoring elevation when counting spaces, and continue with the Knockback. If the elevation is equal to or higher than the figure's height, including from Line of Sight blockers (such as ruins) the figure slams into the wall and the player controlling the affected figure should roll one attack die for damage.

If the affected figure would hit another figure, the Knockback is stopped with the affected figure ending its Knockback move on the same elevation as the figure it would hit (even if another space must be added on to the Knockback move to accomplish this) and each figure's controlling player rolls one attack die for damage.

A figure being moved by Knockback always stops its movement when entering water spaces and takes no falling damage.

Figures affected by Knockback never take leaving engagement attacks. Only small, medium, large, and huge figures are affected by Knockback.

KNOCKBACK AND DOUBLE SPACED FIGURES
Double spaced figures moved by Knockback must be placed on two same level spaces, even if one space must be subtracted from their Knockback move. When moving a double spaced figure with Knockback, at no point may you rotate that figure’s base.

[GreyOwl]

I really like this version. Just a couple of things that may need to be clarified.

1. If you attempt knockback as an attack with a Huger figure or a figure with Superstrength add 2 dice to their rolls. Is this cumulative if you have a Huger figure with Superstrength? Whether it is or not, it should probably be clarified.

2. Knockback as a side effect on figures with superstrength vs. on figures without superstrength - the modification to the skull count is different for Large and Huge figures (which makes sense) but it is the same in both cases for Small figures. Is this right? Maybe a small figure without superstrength should add more than the one with superstrength.

[GreyOwl]

Oh, just found one more:

3. The rules restrict that figures must be Huge or smaller in order to be affected by knockback. This makes sense. However, there is nothing in the rules about figures larger than Huge performing knockback on another figure. Can they do so? If so, the various modifiers need to be expanded to include this. If they can't, this should be stated.