The Book of Judge Dredd

[Tornado]

I know Dredd lost in streaky's first match and I can post losing reports if need be. In two of the tests his team won he was taken out early. How does this make Dredd awesome?

He has been given the benefit of Zemo and Hush and has been paired with the Punisher. In those tests you could easily say Dredd is 190 and Punisher is 230.
Also when facing Criminals of course Dredd is going to win but that is 5.5% of figures.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Thanks Yodaking. Looks good except I am not sure how Dredd attacked a Ninja 6 hexes away with Ricochet unless it was off a ricochet, I may have misread it.
I agree Incendiary is proving to be an extremely valuable SA.
Thanks.

He used an Incendiary round for that attack, I mentioned that the Ninja was 6 hexes away to explain why he attacked that same Ninja with 4 dice (High Explosive round) the previous round and then only used 3 dice then.

[Hahma]

Well I certainly hope you aren't saying that his cost should be lowered. I merely said 230 looks like the floor to me as far as his cost. I've run tests where 300 point units did squat where a 135 point unit was huge that stuff happens.

You can't break down army tests and count how much damage each unit did to determine costs/value. That's not how it works. Some figures are cheerleaders and don't add much offensively. Some figures are OM flex figures and they don't often do their points worth of damage. Some can carry other figures but don't attack much. Etc. Etc.

In army tests, if the tested unit's army wins the majority of the time, we have to look at the hows and whys and see if a bump in cost is needed. Conversely, if the tested unit's army loses the majority of the time, we have to look at the hows and whys and see of a point decrease is needed. It works both ways.

In Yodaking's second test, he wasn't tested against Criminals. In neither of Karat's tests did he go against Criminals and his army won, so it's not like he was only tested vs. Criminals and or always had Zemo or Hush in his army.

If he was taken out early and his team still won, that doesn't mean his cost should be lowered. What if instead of him getting taken out early in those tests, another like-costed figure on his team got taken out early and his team still won, does that mean that figure wasn't worth his cost?

I'm not saying that he looked awesome, but I don't know how anyone can argue that winning 5 of 6 army tests (that we've seen so far) could show a point decrease for him?

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I know Dredd lost in streaky's first match and I can post losing reports if need be. In two of the tests his team won he was taken out early. How does this make Dredd awesome?

He has been given the benefit of Zemo and Hush and has been paired with the Punisher. In those tests you could easily say Dredd is 190 and Punisher is 230.
Also when facing Criminals of course Dredd is going to win but that is 5.5% of figures.

Dredd absolutely killed it vs. the Ninja and they are not criminals. He killed 7 of the 9 ninja (7/9*255 = 198 points) in the time span of just 4 consecutive OM reveals. Watching him clear the board that quickly was pretty impressive. He then went on to put 2W on HQ, & 2W on Deadpool so he earned in points worth without any criminals around.

I think Dredd will really shine vs. almost every common squad based army because of the sheer number of targets available. His double SA power with both explosive and ricochet rounds is very good at clearing the board of fodder. Where as you don't really see his points show up as much when dealing with a hero centric army. Fewer targets with higher defense keeps his double SAs in check. If your opponent grabs Thor & the Hulk to make a 2 man army, don't grab Judge Dredd thinking he is going to help you dominate two figures that cost more.

You are correct that he died very early in my first game but I think you are underselling his impact on that win. Zemo used him for 2 important tasks, both of which were key to getting the win. First he cut the Hired in Guns in half before they could ever fire a shot. If you have never played with or against the Hired Guns, that first volley of 8 shots, followed up by a second volley of 6 or 8 more shots can be pretty devastating. Dredd prevented that from ever happening. As a result the Hired Guns played a minor role in the game. Zemo also used the very real threat of Dredd vs. criminals to draw his opponents out. Kingpin immediately sent his most powerful unit out to confront Dredd before Dredd could start picking his army apart. Now Dredd fell to Absorbing Man (who is a 260 point hero) but he also forced Absorbing Man into a position on the board that allowed his ally, the Huntress, to take him down. He may not have been the one delivering the wounds, but as part of a team his actions lead to the quick death of a 260 point hero, his opponents most powerful figure. Trading the 230 point Dredd for the 260 point Absorbing Man is a good deal alone. Then throw in the fact that he neutered the Hired Guns and he earned his points worth IMO.

In fact looking at the impact he had a little closer makes me think he should be going up in points. I'm starting to think he could be tested at 240-250 points and his team would still win fairly often.

[Tornado]

Not having the game play experience the rest of you do, I will defer to your judgement. I guess my next question is do we want a 240-250 point Judge Dredd or should we be considering ways to tweak down his value?

[IAmBatman]

I don't think we should be tweaking the design based on a 10-20 point range this late in the process. That's the kind of thing that makes folks tear their hair out.

Edit: And 240 looks best from the tests linked in the OP right now, IMO.

[Tornado]

Thanks Bats. Very glad to have you back. Any other Heroes want to weigh in? I would appreciate as much input as I can get. I am still waiting on streaky's PT and maybe that will help consolidate Dredd at 240.

Please give a Dredd a once over and let me know if there is anything missing or not right and when streaky is done perhaps we can get a vote/poll on Dredd's points and wrap this up.

Thanks to everyone for your input and especially those great breakdowns/analysis and most of all your patience... peace

[Karat]

I'm not a hero, but I agree with 240.

[tcglkn]

I think he is fine at 240 and see no reason to tweak the design. He is the top Judge so I wouldn't wanna see any other judges be more expensive than him.

[Tornado]

Agreed Tickle. I was hoping Dredd and Anderson would be 400 (not sure if she will make it at 160 though) and Hershey about 200 (she will have a power like Prof. X and be able to take a turn with two other Judges. She might come in under 200 though leaving wiggle room for Anderson. So those three are 600 and then finally Rookie Judges at 100 each. Wishful thinking at this point but that is my eventual game plan.

240 seems to be making people happy. That is the upper level of where I could see his points. I know he is on par with Batman and the likes but I am not sure he measures up to Spider-Man and others in Spidey's point range (this is 'in comics'.

[streaky2007]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Judge Dredd

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
Pass

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
Pass

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
Pass

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
Pass

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
Pass

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
Pass

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
Pass

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
Pass

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
Pass

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
Pass

_____________________________________________________________

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes- What should be the unit's point value? 180- Give a brief overview.The Simians make a monkey out of Dredd
Map: Abandoned Missile Base
Units: Judge Dredd, Hush, Hired Guns, Parasite & Black Mask (920 points)
vs.
Solovar, Gorilla Grodd, Gorilla-Man, Gorilla City Warriors x3 & Fire Ant Swarm x3 (925 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Judge Dredd takes out 2 Gorilla City Warriors with his high ex special attack. They attempt a retaliation which he shakes off, and Parasite finished off another Gorilla.
Round 2: Judge Dredd tries to take out the second squad of Gorillas, but fails to do any damage. Inspired by Solovar, the Gorillas rush and attack Dredd. 4 skulls with no shields and 6 skulls with 1 shield leave Dredd dead before the end of round 2!
Round 3: The deadly Gorillas do 2 damage to Parasite. Feeling boxed with the Gorillas approaching, the Hired Guns attempt to destroy the wall section but only manage 2 wounds with all 8 attacks. Grodd gets close to Parasite and finishes him off. The Hired Guns manage to deal the wall 1 more damage. Grodd fails to do Black Mask any damage or mind control Hush. The Hired Guns manage 1 more wound on the wall. A Hired Gun tries to wound Grodd with Black Mask’s help, but gets killed by Black Mask for failing.
Round 4: Hush fails to wound Grodd. The Gorillas kill another Hired Gun. The last two Hired Guns go gangbusters on the Gorillas and take out the last 3. Grodd kills Black Mask outright in one attack, then uses mind control on Hush to chuck him off the tower. Hush evades any falling damage, but Grodd uses him to kill the third Hired Gun. Hush gets in Grodd’s face and gives him a wound, plus one more from Surgical Strike. Grodd returns the favour, giving Hush 2 wounds.
Round 5: The final Hired Gun fails to do any damage to Grodd, and Grodd kills Hush in return. Another multi-skull attack from Grodd on the last Hired Gun sweeps away all the ape army’s resistance.

Winners: Solovar, Gorilla-Man, Gorilla Grodd (2 wounds), 3 (of 3) Fire Ant Swarms

_____________________________________________________________

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes- What should be the unit's point value? 220- Give a brief overview.Crime Doesn’t Pay
Map: Abandoned Missile Base
Units: Judge Dredd, Nick Fury, Iron Man Stealth, SHIELD Agents x2 & SHIELD Sniper x1 (980 points)
vs.
Lex Luthor (Battlesuit), Hush, Two-Face, Lexcorp Security x1 & Street Thugs x3 (985 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Iron Man makes an attack on Lex, but his Kryptonite armour shrugs it off.
Round 2: Two-Face tries a couple of attacks on Iron Man, but he avoids them both with his stealth defence. Using his deadly high ex attack twice, Dredd takes out 4 street thugs (although one was sacrificed by Lex to save his own worthless hide).
Round 3: The Helicarrier team arrive! A Lexcorp Security man manages to give Dredd a wound, and Lex flies up to meet the Helicarrier team, in an attempt to take out the SHIELD Agents’ advantageous kill box position, but he repeatedly fails to kill any of them. Nick Fury co-ordinates Iron Man and the SHIELD Agents for the first of many repeat attacks. They take out a Lexcorp Security and give Lex a wound.
Round 4: The Street Thugs manage to give Dredd another wound, but Dredd returns the favour by killing three of them with his high ex again. Lex and his remaining Security man manage another wound each on Dredd, but Lex takes a leaving engagement attack from the SHIELD Agents. Lex gets caught by the agents’ kill box and gets wiped out. Hush takes a falling damage to get up close and personal with his vendeatta, Iron Man, but fails to do any damage. Iron Man kills him in return.
Round 5: The Street Thugs fail to do Dredd any damage. The Lexcorp Security manages to fend off an attack from Iron Man, and a Street Thug survives a kill box! Rolling all skulls, Lexcorp Secuity finishes off Dredd, but the poor Street Thug fails to survive a second kill box attack. Two-Face tries in vain again to wound Iron Man.
Round 6: Two-Face shrugs off a retaliation from Iron Man. The Street Thugs take out their first agent. Two-Face blocks another attack from Iron Man. The agents and thugs go tit-for-tat, with 2 more agents and 3 more thugs getting killed.
Round 7: Two-Face block two more attacks from Iron Man, but the agents kill the last thug. Two-Face tries to attack Iron Man again, but 8 defense dice with height and 1 shield blocking all damage, it’s not even worth bothering with. Iron Man manages a 6 skull attack on Two-Face with the height advantage and finishes him off.

Winners: Nick Fury, Iron Man, SHIELD Sniper, 3 (of 6) SHIELD Agents

Conclusion: Dredd got his butt kicked thoroughly by the apes, and managed to do some damage in the second game, but it was Nick Fury getting to use Iron Man and the SHIELD Agents every turn that made the difference. Dredd is great against tightly packed squads, but the other attacks didn’t get a look-in. He’s going to get stomped against most A or B level heroes because he has only 5 move, life and defense, can’t fly and has no bonding bonus. Maybe with future Judge bonding he’ll really shine. I’m still not sure he’s worth quite 240 – maybe 220.

[IAmBatman]

Streaky, please list the army point totals on your playtest sheet. It helps when analyzing the results.

In the test results, are the units that are listed as surviving all Full Life unless otherwise mentioned?