Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

[mad_wookiee]

Well, since I seem to have opened up something, let me offer a few bits of clarification and perhaps some advice as well. Dok has already posted quite a bit of absolutely sound advice and feedback, so let me begin by saying listen to what he's saying. He has the right of it. Both 1Mmirg and Robber have also added an important piece of advice: if you want feedback, then feel free to ask for it. I've had a number of folks over the years pm me with questions or asking for my thoughts on a particular map, and I've done the same at times. We have a very friendly community in that regard.

Now, I do feel as though I need to respond to a few specifics.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

I gave BoV a fair warning but NO ONE saw it that was in the BoV committee:

I'll echo what's already been said - I'm not really sure that a week is enough time for the kind of vetting that I'm thinking about. I'm not trying to suggest a rigid rule here by any means, and my fellow judges may differ from me in how they view the process. But for me, one thing that always raises red flags to me is when I see a map that still has that new 'scape smell. In my view, it really needs to be tried and tested by the community. It takes some work to get your maps into competitive rotation, but it can be done. My primary avenue is by hosting events. I like to design a new map or two for events that I run, often to mix things up a bit or to fit a particular format. The maps I build are always designed with that in mind, and they have to be able to stand up to competitive play. But the benefit to me as a mapmaker is that I get to hear what people think of the map, and if there's a balance issue, believe me, I'll hear about it.

As an aside, I've only once nominated my own map, and that was in direct response to a call from the judges at the time for more BftU maps. (It was rejected, in case you were wondering.) I don't find it distasteful for folks to nominate their own maps, don't get me wrong. That's not what I'm saying. A lot of folks do that, and I'm perfectly fine with reviewing a map that's been nominated by its creator. What I am saying is that, for me personally, the true test of whether one of my maps is ready is when the community says that it's ready. In other words, I try to walk my talk.

I may be wrong, but I think the BoV is very self-centered within the works of the BoV committee. Look at these four threads:

• Shockma Ranyk's Map Thread
• buckeyefan837's Map Thread
• Black_Charos' Map Thread
• Robber's Map Thread

Go through those post and see if you see any from a BoV member. I found 2 post from M_W and that was it. Now why do comments from the BoV matter? Replies from the BoV matter because it's the BoV for Heaven's sake; the guys who passed maps like Marr Highway and Embattled Fen, and probably Sirocco (I love the map M_W).

I'll echo 1Mmirg here - we really aren't about tracking down good maps and making them the best. I, personally, just don't have the time. Of late, my participation here has been primarily focused on local events in the MARS region and this project. I would love to read every mapmaker's thread and provide feedback, but I just can't. It wouldn't be fair to my wife and kids. I do try to provide specific feedback in this thread where possible, and I apologize for not being more specific as to the concerns I have about the maps that were submitted. No promises, but I'll try to do so in the map threads but it won't be for a few days at least.

EDIT: And BTW, if you guys were active in the Map Threads, you would know that Mitonsoul's Dungeon is not just 'slapped together':

I'm not really a fan of the phrasing that's used in that section of the bylaws. I probably should have snipped that sentence, because it's not the part that I wanted to emphasize. I wanted to point out the requirement that maps receive playtesting from multiple parties, and not just the mapmaker. What the rule is trying to convey is that, if you've been a part of every game that your map has seen, then it really needs more exposure before being submitted. And I support that requirement. Again, I'm only one judge. The other guys may have a different take than me, and I recognize that in honesty events are getting fewer and farther between. I wish it were otherwise, but it's just the simple truth. I'm not trying to say that I'd never vote to review a map that hasn't seen any competitive exposure. I am, however, saying that it's much easier for me to vote yes when I know it's been field tested.

Originally Posted by Black_Charos

I feel the same way. I generally play 3-4 games on my maps before posting them on the site, but most of the time get almost no feedback, and sometimes none at all.

I've already addressed most of this, but to reiterate - follow dok's advice. Also, I don't take any issue with posting maps with a few games under their belt. I just don't know that I'd be ready to say that a map with that little experience is ready to be crowned the best of the best. Maybe it is - but it's harder to know that at this stage of its life.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

, this project is accomplishing nothing by sitting back in their chairs and waiting for a submission by someone like B_C or me and to then step up and say something.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree, then, on the purpose of this project. As 1Mmirg said, it's not to provide feedback to mapmakers. There are other venues for that. It's to provide vetting for the community on the best maps for competitive play.

[Dignan]

Maps pending acceptance for review:

Northward Bound by Black_Charos

I like some of the use of trees on this map, but I feel that the road is poorly implemented (limiting its impact). The glyphs are also setup for a "home glyph" scenario which I don't prefer in a competitive map. I vote NO to review.

Booby Traps by nyys

This is a very interesting map that looks like a ton of fun to play on, but due to the extreme variations in height and the general lack of LOS blockers I don't think this will work well in most competitive settings. I vote NO to review.

Mitonsoul's Dungeon by heroscaper2010

I like the combination of Btfu and VW, but the set has huge limit on LOS blockers. Characteristically, this map is very wide open and looks too range friendly for a tournament. I vote NO to review.

Overgrown by Black_Charos

This is a nice looking map and will probably look great setup. However, the combination of ruins and water in the center of the map really look to clog things up tremendously. I've seen maps use similar layouts and the result can really stagnant game play with some fairly common tournament armies. I vote NO to review.

Maps currently being reviewed:

Arboretum by Robber

My apologies for the following extremely brief review on my part. I've been trying to find time for this and I've finally settled giving a shortened review in lieu of postponing this any further.

I like the general look and play on this map, for the most part. This is a relatively solid map. However, it does irk me a little to see the jungle trees deployed so inefficiently. Nearly every tree doubles the coverage of an adjacent hex with another tree/bush. I always hate to see that. With the frequency of occurrences on this map, it feels like the same game play could be achieved with one fewer set of trees, or they could have been positioned more effectively.

The elevated road hexes in the jungle section of the map don't share in even battlement placement. The approaches to these two hexes vary slightly and create a small imbalance. This sort of this can be inevitable in an asymmetrical map, but I would have been happier with a shift in a couple of battlements to even a few paths through that section of the map (though it's a matter of taste).

I also feel that the approach and direct vicinity of the sand hex glyph favors the blue start zone slighting as well. I would have preferred the elevated road hex to be moved southwest one space to even things up a bit more (IMO).

I think it's a pretty solid map, but I feel that it could use a little more polish. It just has a few little wrinkles that I would like ironed out. I vote NO to induct.

[arp12]

We're in serious need of an update, so I hope no one minds that I did this one.

Updated 8/15/12

Logged 1Mmirg: YtR Anvil; YtI Stygian Rift; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtR Divided v2; YtR Rising Pressure; NtI Trepidation; NtR Northward Bound; NtR Mitonsoul's Dungeon; NtR Overgrown; NtR Booby Traps
Logged Dignan: NtR Anvil; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtI Mauna Killa; NtR Divided v2; YtR Rising Pressure; YtR Concrete Jungle; NtR Northward Bound, Booby Traps, Mitonsoul's Dungeon, and Overgrown; NtI Arboretum
Logged mad_wookiee: NtR Anvil; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtR Divided v2; YtR Rising Pressure; NtR Concrete Jungle; NtR Northward Bound; NtR Overgrown; NtR Mitonsoul's Dungeon
Logged nyys: NtR Anvil; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtR Concrete Jungle
Logged lonewolf: NtR Concrete Jungle
Removed Anvil, Lookout Canyon, Divided v2, Concrete Jungle, Northward Bound, Mitonsoul's Dungeon, and Overgrown from the list.
Mauna Killa withdrawn from review by Killometer.

Maps pending acceptance for review:

Rising Pressure by Killometer
YES = 3 (1Mmirg, Dignan, mad_wookiee) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 3 (lonewolf, ollie, nyys)

Booby Traps by nyys
Yes = 0 ; NO = 2 (1Mmirg, Dignan) ; PENDING = 3 (mad_wookiee, ollie, lonewolf)
*nyys removed as map creater

Maps currently being reviewed:

Sirocco by mad_wookiee
YES = 3 (Dignan, nyys, 1Mmirg) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 2 (lonewolf, Ollie) *mad_wookiee removed as map creator

Stygian Rift by Typhon2222
YES = 3 (Dignan, Ollie, 1Mmirg) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 3 (lonewolf, mad_wookiee, nyys)

Trepidation by Dignan
Yes = 0 ; NO = 1 (1Mmirg) ; PENDING = 5 (mad_wookiee, lonewolf, ollie, nyys) *Dignan removed as map creator

Arboretum by Robber
Yes = 0 ; NO = 1 (Dignan) ; PENDING = 5 (1Mmirg, mad_wookiee, lonewolf, ollie, nyys)

[Robber]

Originally Posted by Dignan

Maps pending acceptance for review:


Arboretum by Robber

My apologies for the following extremely brief review on my part. I've been trying to find time for this and I've finally settled giving a shortened review in lieu of postponing this any further.

I like the general look and play on this map, for the most part. This is a relatively solid map. However, it does irk me a little to see the jungle trees deployed so inefficiently. Nearly every tree doubles the coverage of an adjacent hex with another tree/bush. I always hate to see that. With the frequency of occurrences on this map, it feels like the same game play could be achieved with one fewer set of trees, or they could have been positioned more effectively.

The elevated road hexes in the jungle section of the map don't share in even battlement placement. The approaches to these two hexes vary slightly and create a small imbalance. This sort of this can be inevitable in an asymmetrical map, but I would have been happier with a shift in a couple of battlements to even a few paths through that section of the map (though it's a matter of taste).

I also feel that the approach and direct vicinity of the sand hex glyph favors the blue start zone slighting as well. I would have preferred the elevated road hex to be moved southwest one space to even things up a bit more (IMO).

I think it's a pretty solid map, but I feel that it could use a little more polish. It just has a few little wrinkles that I would like ironed out. I vote NO to induct.

Would you mind rephrasing the bolded area? I'm not sure what you mean, as I only used one set of Jungle trees. On the rest, I am extremely appreciative that you gave my map a great review! You can expect an edit to the map in the future if it gets another "NO"

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Robber

Would you mind rephrasing the bolded area? I'm not sure what you mean, as I only used one set of Jungle trees. On the rest, I am extremely appreciative that you gave my map a great review! You can expect an edit to the map in the future if it gets another "NO"

My apologies. It has taken me a bit of time to get to writing the review and I forgot that you only used one set. In my mind, the frequency of the overlaps made me falsely remember extra trees. So my statement "using less sets" should really be changed to "more effective/efficient placement".

This is just a personal taste of my own and is likely not shared by all (or even the majority of) mapmakers/judges. I personally strive for as close to zero overlap as possible in my maps. I think that jungle trees are a great asset to a map as they give a much needed nerf to ranged attacks.

That said, greater coverage might not always be in the best interest of a map. For instance, if shifting a tree to avoid an overlap gives a high ground hex a jungle bonus, you would likely prefer the overlap condition. For this map. It feels like the jungle terrain could be shifted here and there to give maximum coverage to units on the lowest level. I think that would be an improvement.

[1Mmirg]

Originally Posted by arp12

We're in serious need of an update, so I hope no one minds that I did this one.

Updated 8/15/12

Logged 1Mmirg: YtR Anvil; YtI Stygian Rift; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtR Divided v2; YtR Rising Pressure; NtI Trepidation; NtR Northward Bound; NtR Mitonsoul's Dungeon; NtR Overgrown; NtR Booby Traps
Logged Dignan: NtR Anvil; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtI Mauna Killa; NtR Divided v2; YtR Rising Pressure; YtR Concrete Jungle; NtR Northward Bound, Booby Traps, Mitonsoul's Dungeon, and Overgrown; NtI Arboretum
Logged mad_wookiee: NtR Anvil; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtR Divided v2; YtR Rising Pressure; NtR Concrete Jungle; NtR Northward Bound; NtR Overgrown; NtR Mitonsoul's Dungeon
Logged nyys: NtR Anvil; NtR Lookout Canyon; NtR Concrete Jungle
Logged lonewolf: NtR Concrete Jungle
Removed Anvil, Lookout Canyon, Divided v2, Concrete Jungle, Northward Bound, Mitonsoul's Dungeon, and Overgrown from the list.
Mauna Killa withdrawn from review by Killometer.

Maps pending acceptance for review:

Rising Pressure by Killometer
YES = 3 (1Mmirg, Dignan, mad_wookiee) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 3 (lonewolf, ollie, nyys)

Booby Traps by nyys
Yes = 0 ; NO = 2 (1Mmirg, Dignan) ; PENDING = 3 (mad_wookiee, ollie, lonewolf)
*nyys removed as map creater

Maps currently being reviewed:

Sirocco by mad_wookiee
YES = 3 (Dignan, nyys, 1Mmirg) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 2 (lonewolf, Ollie) *mad_wookiee removed as map creator

Stygian Rift by Typhon2222
YES = 3 (Dignan, Ollie, 1Mmirg) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 3 (lonewolf, mad_wookiee, nyys)

Trepidation by Dignan
Yes = 0 ; NO = 1 (1Mmirg) ; PENDING = 5 (mad_wookiee, lonewolf, ollie, nyys) *Dignan removed as map creator

Arboretum by Robber
Yes = 0 ; NO = 1 (Dignan) ; PENDING = 5 (1Mmirg, mad_wookiee, lonewolf, ollie, nyys)

Updated. Thanks, arp.

[mad_wookiee]

Since we have something of a tradition of posting updates immediately after someone updates the first post, I'll be the guilty party this time around.

Booby Traps
Besides the fact that my inner 7th grader can't help but snicker when I read the title and look at the layout, I share the concerns of my fellow judges on this one. Lots of height protected by jungle and plenty of ways to clog this one make me think that this isn't really suited for competitive play. No to review.

Stygian Rift
Stygian Rift is a 2x BftU, 1x VW map, a combination that I like quite a bit. I think that 2x BftU is really the sweet spot for the set, granting enough LoS blockers and shadow tiles to create an interesting footprint that can be melee friendly. When paired with VW, you get a really nice visual pop that looks great on the table and, when used properly, a nice accelerator to balance the shadow tiles. Maps using this combo tend to play on the faster side due to the typically smaller footprint and the movement encouraged by the lava.

Overall, Stygian Rift is a fun map. The LoS blickers are used efficiently, providing adequate screening for units to cross the map. The lava fields constitute almost all of the high ground on the map – while not particularly innovative, there's a reason that a lot of maps take this approach. It just works. The risk/reward calculation changes when the most desirable hexes are also going to hurt you half of the time. I like the added decision points that are created, and the tension that results from being forced to choose between optimal attacks and safety for your own units. Use of the shadow tiles adjacent to the high ground plays with that calculation even more; the added defense die to lower units makes the high ground more attractive. While not quite a Vincini's Dilemma, it does play with the valuations of the various spaces quite a bit in way that I find favors skillful play.

The map isn't perfect. I believe that holding the right-hand glyph is slightly easier than the left for both sides, because of the positioning of the adjacent high ground. This bugs me somewhat, but I can't really see a way to adjust it without messing up the shadow path, which works quite well in its current configuration. I'm also not wild about the molten lava placement. Molten laval is a strong pathing tool – I really believe that it should be used purposefully or not at all. I'm not entirely clear on what the molten lava accomplishes in this map. It doesn't really seem to affect the pathing much, if at all.

Still, I don't believe those points to weigh too heavily on what I find to be overall a very enjoyable and balanced map. As always for me, when in doubt I ask myself whether I'd be happy to sit down at this map at a competitive event, and that answer is an unqualified yes. Typhon has created a map – and done so over many iterations, I might add, which speaks volumes about his desire to get this one right – that would be a worthy addition to the BoV. Yes to induct.

[Shedim Kabal]

It's really cool seeing one of my favorite maps, Stygian Rift, moving through the review process. Usually, I adjust the lone outcrops adjacent to the lone lava fields for stability, but if it gets inducted I might have to bite the bullet and drill the two shadow tiles out. My advice to TDs on this one is to put the glyphs power side up at the start and let players roll for sides, as flipping them in game is tough from their tight spot!

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by mad_wookiee

Typhon has created a map – and done so over many iterations, I might add, which speaks volumes about his desire to get this one right – that would be a worthy addition to the BoV. Yes to induct.

This gives me the opportunity to repeat again: The reason Stygian Rift went through so many iterations was that I got such amazing feedback and helpful suggestions from GameBear, 1Mmirg, Dignan, and especially Robber and Mad_Wookiee, who carefully analyzed and reanalyzed version after version.

What's good in this map is almost entirely due to the generosity of those five gents.

[dok]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the optimal combination for BftU is just BftUx2. I've tried to combine Marvel+BftU, and it's possible, but you're pretty short on tiles. By contrast, when I look at maps like Jotun's Gap (RotV+BftU) or Burial Marsh (SotM+BftU) they don't strike me as particularly efficient uses of terrain. (Also, personally, I find the RotV+BftU combo a bit ugly, and the SotM+BftU combo very ugly.)

By contrast, the best BftUx2 maps (IMO: Stygian Rift, Bad Moon Rising, and Sirocco) are aesthetically pleasing, efficient uses of terrain, and offer great gameplay.

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by dok

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the optimal combination for BftU is just BftUx2. I've tried to combine Marvel+BftU, and it's possible, but you're pretty short on tiles. By contrast, when I look at maps like Jotun's Gap (RotV+BftU) or Burial Marsh (SotM+BftU) they don't strike me as particularly efficient uses of terrain. (Also, personally, I find the RotV+BftU combo a bit ugly, and the SotM+BftU combo very ugly.)

By contrast, the best BftUx2 maps (IMO: Stygian Rift, Bad Moon Rising, and Sirocco) are aesthetically pleasing, efficient uses of terrain, and offer great gameplay.

As usual, dok, I could hardly agree more. With only one exception here, perhaps: I really like the aesthetics of the SotM+BftU combo. Or at least, the dark green Swamp (and to a lesser extent, the Swamp Water) tiles of SotM beside BftU.

The Sand pieces have to be covered though, I think, for this combo to work. Rock tiles don't mesh particularly well with Dungeon, but Sand with Dungeon is just an eysore. Perhaps one reason I find Burial Marsh an attractive map: it covers the Sand entirely.

[1Mmirg]

Glad to see Stygian Rift proceed. It's a great map.

And, fwiw, I almost agree with dok. I really like the way BftU mixes with TT. (Two of my maps use the BftU, TT, FotA combination that I like quite a bit--Icy Cavern and Underground Iceways.) I'm actually currently tinkering with Icy Cavern (again) to add in a bit of battlements to help with the flow of battle.

Anyhow, neither is perfect (not yet, anyway ...) and dok is right that BftU x2 is much better starting place. But this set combo is definitely one I am still playing with and I think works well and looks great together, fwiw.