The Book of Alfred Pennyworth

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Six down, two to go here as well!

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by Griffin

I am glad you brought that up, and I am gonna take that to the Alfred thread actually.

So yeah, I think that he should cost a bit more after playing with him. Like at least 60 points but I could easily justify a cost of 75 or 80 after my test with him (found on the second army test for Penguin), as he was honestly more useful than Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan or James Murphy have ever been for me. Alfred was my MVP for sure.

[IAmBatman]

I'm not at all convinced that the test you put up justifies a rise in Alfred's cost.
The other team was focusing on the vigilantes, allowing him to operate freely as a healer and and an end gamer, where he has the best shot at succeeding.
It seems like the dice favored him in his match against the 95 point Toad, and went against him in his match against the 10 point Isamu.
Either way, the game swung on a single 10 point figure, which tells me it was extremely balanced overall. Some of the Vigilantes may have underperformed, but it seems they did pretty well from the write up, and Alfred was in one of the better army combos for him, against opponents lacking a mobile ranged assassin to take him out early.
Like I said, I think he's probably good at 40. If his cost goes up too much, I think his draftability starts going way down.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Just to clarify, does Griff's question rescind his Yes?

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Just to clarify, does Griff's question rescind his Yes?

I don't know.

I simply had a really good end game clean up with him against weak or dying figures, so... I don't know what to say beyond that one time use of him. I will say this though, I am starting to get a bit worried with how well he may perform with other Human figures in the future that may be able to protect him or even heal him back.... I think that once we get to the Final Editing Phase, I may exercise this rule:

• FINAL EDITING PHASE

Once Private C3G Design threads have been moved from the playtesting phase to the final editing phase, certain requirements must be met for the Private Designs to move to the release phase.


- There must be a finished product for members to critique, proof, and edit.
- The vote to pass in this phase must be a unanimous vote among the Heroes. However, if a Hero fails to vote yea or nay within 48 hours, their vote is forfeited and is not needed to pass the unit. At the end of 48 hours, all votes will be tallied.
- Any Hero may stop this phase by asking for 48 hours for more playtesting. After 48 hours, the voting process may resume.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm not at all convinced that the test you put up justifies a rise in Alfred's cost.
The other team was focusing on the vigilantes, allowing him to operate freely as a healer and and an end gamer, where he has the best shot at succeeding.
It seems like the dice favored him in his match against the 95 point Toad, and went against him in his match against the 10 point Isamu.
Either way, the game swung on a single 10 point figure, which tells me it was extremely balanced overall. Some of the Vigilantes may have underperformed, but it seems they did pretty well from the write up, and Alfred was in one of the better army combos for him, against opponents lacking a mobile ranged assassin to take him out early.
Like I said, I think he's probably good at 40. If his cost goes up too much, I think his draftability starts going way down.

I kind of have to agree with Bats. I mean Two-Face takes out Black Canary with a triple attack but barely scratches Alfred? Then Toad can't do Jack? I mean there is plenty of height on that map that Toad could have leapt to in order to get to Alfred more inderectly.

Also on this map, it's a long map that kind of takes a while to get down and not as easy to flank an opponent. I understand that one might concentrate on others besides Alfred, but in a lot of maps, he's not going to have the luxury of having the same set up where his teammates are going to keep close to him to be able to try to get wounds off.

He had a nice game vs. the criminal faction, but if he's only going to be that effective in that situation and with Vigilantes, then I don't think his cost should go way up or he won't be drafted in other situations vs. other opponent types.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by Hahma

I kind of have to agree with Bats. I mean Two-Face takes out Black Canary with a triple attack but barely scratches Alfred? Then Toad can't do Jack? I mean there is plenty of height on that map that Toad could have leapt to in order to get to Alfred more inderectly.

Toad was on height against Alfred the entire time, Alfred was shooting at height disadvantage the whole time, and besides, I think you are also overlooking the fact that Alfred out ranges Toad, so he can draw him out, but Toad cannot do the same, even his tongue lash requires him to be within a shorter range and no more than 3 levels higher or lower than the figure.

Also on this map, it's a long map that kind of takes a while to get down and not as easy to flank an opponent. I understand that one might concentrate on others besides Alfred, but in a lot of maps, he's not going to have the luxury of having the same set up where his teammates are going to keep close to him to be able to try to get wounds off.

Wrong. When you can take a Vigilante off the board anywhere on the board once per game, it is easy to get them close every game. Especially when your strategy is to keep them all close and let the bad guys come after you, that is what I did.

He had a nice game vs. the criminal faction, but if he's only going to be that effective in that situation and with Vigilantes, then I don't think his cost should go way up or he won't be drafted in other situations vs. other opponent types.

I don't think that any of us know that though. That is why I plan on calling it in for an additional 48 hours of playtesting to be sure.

[IAmBatman]

Don't get me wrong - I'm fine with additional playtesting. I just don't think there's anything in the one playtest that brought this up to make me in favor of any boosts to his cost at this time.
If more convincing results start adding up, that's a different story.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Toad was on height against Alfred the entire time, Alfred was shooting at height disadvantage the whole time, and besides, I think you are also overlooking the fact that Alfred out ranges Toad, so he can draw him out, but Toad cannot do the same, even his tongue lash requires him to be within a shorter range and no more than 3 levels higher or lower than the figure.

Wrong. When you can take a Vigilante off the board anywhere on the board once per game, it is easy to get them close every game. Especially when your strategy is to keep them all close and let the bad guys come after you, that is what I did.

I don't think that any of us know that though. That is why I plan on calling it in for an additional 48 hours of playtesting to be sure.

Okay, I understand that Alfred can summon someone once per game to get them back close, I meant after that and being able to have the rest of the army adjacent to him. But I guess the other team can have Raelin and Kelda in their army and keep them close together also with the rest of their army near their zone and both teams can wait for the others to come to them.

But if Alfred whacked Toad that easily when Toad had height, isn't that kind of more flukey than would be expected as the norm. In one test, Daredevil killed well over 200 points for me but then it was argued because of other results that he should be 180. They are all going to have great games and clunkers, that's why more testing might be needed.

And my point about him being that effective vs. Criminal faction was wrong, as again it was only one game. And the Criminals had to deal with Penguin taking turns out of order and Black Mask killing his own.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Don't get me wrong - I'm fine with additional playtesting. I just don't think there's anything in the one playtest that brought this up to make me in favor of any boosts to his cost at this time.
If more convincing results start adding up, that's a different story.

That's all I'm saying too. If he consistently has great games then I'm more than happy to bump his cost up.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by Hahma

That's all I'm saying too. If he consistently has great games then I'm more than happy to bump his cost up.

Well then we are all saying the same thing.
I have only played with him once, and I believe that I can consistently get more than just a 40 point value out of him every time. That is why I want to test him a bit more once we get to the Final Editing Phase, because I would rather test it and find out I am wrong now, than not test it further and you end up being wrong later.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Well then we are all saying the same thing.
I have only played with him once, and I believe that I can consistently get more than just a 40 point value out of him every time. That is why I want to test him a bit more once we get to the Final Editing Phase, because I would rather test it and find out I am wrong now, than not test it further and you end up being wrong later.

I agree that your concern is something to take serious and that his process should be paused until those concerns are either verified or alleviated.

I guess some questions can be,

"If you are able to use Field Extraction every game to remove 1 wound marker from a Vigilante or Sidekick, is that in an of itself worth 40 points?"

"If you are able to remove 2 or more wounds every game from a human, between Field Extraction and Field Medic, how much is that worth?"

"if you use an OM on Alfred for Remote Field Extraction instead of attacking with a unit in good position to do some damage, does that take away some value of Field Extraction?"

"If you guess wrong when to use Alfred and have to use an OM when either a Vigilante or Sidekick isn't wounded or dies before being able to use Field Extraction, how does that affect his cost?"

"Keeping your human units near Alfred to use Field Medic while an opponent can strike from far away, can that be a negative thing in some cases?"

"Does being limited to certain classes or species for use of his powers make him niche enough to affect his cost?"

"If Alfred can hide in a castle and bring a Vigilante back or keep human ranged units healed up while in good position on the wall walk behind battlements would make his value go up in that case?"