General Dominance

[Kroc]

This thread was inspired by two other recent threads, Best General Specific General and The Valkyrie Generals. The question both of these threads try to answer by a poll could be boiled down to which general is best in a general specific tournament. I am going to try and answer this based on facts.

The answer is that Jandar and Utgar seem to be the top, Vydar is a close second, Einar is third, and Aquilla and Ullar are not worth mentioning.

EDIT: I'd like to mention that this is only a general picture based on the number of units available. As Ollie mentions this analysis does not take into consideration synergies, so there can be great armies that can be built out of the few units that Vydar and Aquilla have.

There are two ways to try and find an answer to this question based on facts. I think the best way to look at the question is to consider the Power Rankings. An alternative method is to look at Jexik’s tier 1 armies.

A competitive army will probably be mostly made up of A units (A-, A or A+) and when we look at these there isn't a clear best, but the general ranking is clear.

General: Number of Units
Utgar 12
Jandar 11
Vydar 8
Einar 5
Aquilla 2
Ullar 1

The problem with this ranking is it ignores synergies, so another approach would be to look at the tier 1 armies Jexik mentions. Here Jandar dominates with 43 units in the 25 tier 1 armies, Utgar has 22, and Vydar has 13, Einar follows with 5, and Aquilla and Ullar have none. Unfortunately this ranking is biased because (for example) Jandar’s apparent dominance is based on two units: Raelin (RotV) and the Fourth Mass, and there are also many different fourth Mass armies mentioned that could be combined.

EDIT: I should mention that the only tier 1 armies that are general specific are Jandar armies, or to be exact 4th Mass based armies.

But either way of looking at is clear. If you want to win a general specific tournament you should choose Utgar or Jandar. If you want to have a chance but be unique, go for Vydar or maybe Einar. If you want to show off your talents by fielding a weak army go for Aquilla or Ullar.



I want to include two lists that you might find interesting. First what units dominate the tier 1. Second a list of the A (A-, A, or A+) units by general.

In the tier 1 armies we find:
Unit: Number of times appearing:
4th Mass 13
Deathreavers 10
Raelin (RotV) 9
Airborne Elite 5
Krav Maga Agents 4
Major Q9 4
Marro Warriors 4
Nilfheim 4

And a by general list of units with an A-, A, or A+ ranking is:
Utgar:
Cyprien Esenwein (150)
Deathreavers (40*)
Grimnak (120)
Heavy Gruts (70*)
Isamu (10)
Marcu Esenwein (20)
Marro Stingers (60*)
Marro Warriors (50)
Me-Burq-Sa (50)
Minions of Utgar (110*)
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider (50)
Sonya Esenwein (45)


Jandar:
4th Mass. Line (70*)
Airborne Elite (110)
Alastair MacDirk (110)
Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80)
Eldgrim the Viking Champion (30)
Knights of Weston(70*)
Nilfheim (185)
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-ROTV (80)
Sentinels of Jandar (110*)
Sgt. Drake Alexander-SOTM (170)
Sir Gilbert (105)


Vydar:
Agent Skahen (120)
Blastatrons (60*)
Braxas (210)
Gladiatrons (80*)
Krav Maga Agents (100)
Laglor (110)
Major Q10 (150)
Major Q9 (180)


Einar:
10th Regiment of Foot (75*)
Kaemon Awa(120)
Marcus Decimus Gallus (100)
Roman Legionnaires (50*)
Zelrig (185)


Aquilla:
Darrak Ambershard (60)
The Axegrinders of Burning Forge (70*)

Ullar:
Atlaga

[LeviofDoom]

AWESOME new thread! it really helps me thank you and +rep

[ollie]

Nice analysis. However, I'm not convinced that your arguments lead logically to your conclusion.

How many units are usually in an army? Five max? So, having 12 elite units does not make Utgar a better choice than Einar, who has 5. To use Vydar, who I think has better general-specific armies than Utgar, as a particular example: glads/blasts is one of the best armies around and I would say it outperforms anything that Utgar can assemble.

Generals don't win tournaments, armies do. If a general has lots of reasonably good armies and units (which is what your analysis measures, I think) that tells us very little about whether he/she has the best army.

I can think of another couple of data-driven ways to get at the answer you are searching for. First, you could count the number of general-specific tier 1 armies. These are presumably the best general-specific armies (as at least a first-order approximation). I haven't looked at the thread recently, but I strongly suspect this would put Jandar out in front. Second, look at tournament data. Which generals are actually winning general-specific events? What general-specific armies are doing well in unrestricted events?

Edit. Another thought: do you really consider taking an all-Aquilla Axegrinder army a way to "show off your talents by fielding a weak army"? Aquilla's lack of other top-flight armies does not mean that this one is bad, which is what you appear to conclude.

[MegaSilver]

Nice mention of Unit Debates! And this is a very nice thread for tourney army building. Thanks for putting in all the work!

MegaSilver

[Rich10]

I think that there is an important reason why Jandar tends to be dominant over the other generals. This is because Jandar's best builds do not depend on units from other generals. Armies built around 4th Mass stand on their own and any figures that are used with the 4th Mass tend to be with Jandar (Drake, Sentinels, etc.). Sir Gilbert/KOW armies do not need figures from other generals. By contrast, Vydar pods are very strong armies, but at their best, they include Raelin and/or Deathreavers. Stingers can make strong armies, but they tend to be better with figures from other generals (Raelin, KA, etc.).

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by ollie

How many units are usually in an army? Five max? So, having 12 elite units does not make Utgar a better choice than Einar, who has 5. To use Vydar, who I think has better general-specific armies than Utgar, as a particular example: glads/blasts is one of the best armies around and I would say it outperforms anything that Utgar can assemble.

Glad/Blasts does not make it into Tier 1, for some reason. But in general you are exactly right. This analysis ignores synergies, a key element in building a great army.

What I am saying is that if you don't have many units at the top then the odds of finding a good army you can use are lower. I know there are many specific counter-examples.

This is one reason I included the list of units, so people could look them over and think about it. As you point out fielding Axegrinders/Darrak Ambershad would not be a bad idea for a General specific army. You have no range, but you wouldn't lose every match. Glad/Blasts is another blast for an army, and Vydar has relatively few units at the top.

Originally Posted by ollie

I can think of another couple of data-driven ways to get at the answer you are searching for. First, you could count the number of general-specific tier 1 armies. ... Second, look at tournament data. Which generals are actually winning general-specific events? ...

I'm not sure how much the tier 1 armies really are an unbiased measure of what is best out there. I don't know how frequently Jexik updates his list and how he determines what to put in tier 1. But if you want to use this metric then Jandar is your man. The only tier 1 armies that are general specific are Jandar armies. To be precise they are 4th Mass plus filler armies. There are Einar and Utgar armies in tier 2, but not in tier 1.

And as far as analyzing tournament data, do you know anyone who has that data... Ollie? Do you (have that data) Ollie? Feel free to do your own analysis and tell me I'm full of it. I'll edit my first post and include your take on it most happily. I don't have the data or the time to do that analysis.

EDIT: And finally, like any data driven analysis, this one is bound to be wrong sometimes. I'm only trying to present a general picture.

[clancampbell]

I wouldn't say Aquilla is useless. The last 2 events I've been at Aquilla's dwarves have been the tourny winner.

One general specific and one not. However the winning army at the non-specific event was all Aquilla except one unit.

[ollie]

I didn't mean to disparage the data. I think it's all good stuff and useful to have compiled in this form. Thank you for doing the work.

However, I do think that your conclusion is wrong: "If you want to win a general specific tournament you should choose Utgar or Jandar" (and even if it's right that the analysis does not support it). That doesn't mean I want to do any work myself---sniping from the sidelines is much easier and more fun.

The tournament armies played thread and the tournament champion ones might be good places to start and there's plenty of other tournament data in the threads. There's a lot here if anyone cares enough to sift through it.

[Aldin]

Actually, Glad/Blast is a Tier 1 army - TRON! It uses Raelin for some additional defense. I think point totals play into it a lot, actually. Building a competitive 500 point Aquilla army is easy. Building a competetive 520 point Aquilla army is not. That's where greater versatility comes into play for Jandar and Utgar - they have good, synergistic figures at a lot of different point values.

Here are the general specific army concepts that I think are solid General Wars fodder:

Aquilla

Axegrinders

I suppose someone could come up with something clever using Wyverns and/or MRT, but the Axegrinders are the bread and butter for Aquilla consistency. Aquilla suffers greatly from an inability to force the battle to happen on her terms because her ranged units are the weakest of the six generals.

Einar

Kato/Ashigaru
Soldier (typically Marcus, Romans, 10th)

Either of these army types has both depth and offensive power. The key Einar weakness is the lack of a big punch/special attack which might very well be provided by Kaemon Awa in either of those armies. Mobility is also a concern.

Jandar

Valiant
KoW
Misc

Both all Valiant and KoW armies are tourney winners, general specific or not. Jandar also has a plethora of good miscellaneous figures like Raelin, Nilfheim, Eldgrim and Zetacron that allow for both a fair bit of competitive army customization and an easier time reaching specific point builds.

Ullar

GSW

I'm guessing that there is a competitive GSW/Charos build using some combinations of Aubriens and/or Syvarris for ranged support - or possibly Sharwin Wildborn for her special attack and as a clean up figure. Vipers are fun, but too inconsistent to be tournament winners. I would say that depending on the point total, Ullar is potentially the weakest general in this format, though oddly I would say that Ullar may have the most internal synergies of any general.

Utgar

Heavy Gruts
Rat-Podges
Beast Bonding
Stingers
Misc

Utgar has so many different figures with solid synergies that it would be difficult to put together a comprehensive list of all the potential army components for a Utgarian winner. The four I have listed above Misc are simply those that already proven tourney winners. A combination of Stingers and Rats might be tough to overcome in this environment because it is difficult for most general specific armies to both boost defense and carry special attacks.

Vydar

Glad/Blast
Q9/KMA/Laglor

Both of these armies are designed to rain down damage from units you can't get to and are highly competitive. While not very flexible, I'd say Vydar is easily in the running for overall victory - depending on point total.

Given an ideal number of points with which to work, I'd say I think the generals rank out at roughly:

1) Vydar
2) Jandar
3) Utgar
4) Einar
5) Aquilla
6) Ullar

~Aldin, playing with moving parts

[dok]

I'd argue that the dominant one-general army is also somewhat dependent on the point total. For 360 points, it's awfully tough to compete with 12 rats and 12 stingers. Push up to 420 points, and now it's Jandar (24 minutemen) or Vydar (12 glads and 12 blasts) that seem like the obvious options. Push higher still and you start to think about throwing big heroes into the mix.

At 520, the point total for General Wars this year, there is one obvious army that is pretty much assured to define the metagame:

350 4th Mass x5
170 Sgt. Drake SotM
520, 21 hexes

If you can't beat that, it's pretty likely you're not going to win General Wars.

With that in mind, some of the best Utgar options:

Spoiler Alert!

50 Nerak
120 Grimnak
350 Heavy Gruts x5
520, 24 hexes

and Aquilla options:

Spoiler Alert!

60 Darrak
110 Migol
350 Axegrinders x5
520, 22 hexes

...look less attractive, because they don't match up well against sustained WTF.

You could meta the meta, with a couple different Utgar approaches:

100 Marro Dividers x2
300 Marro Stingers x5
120 Torin
520, 23 hexes

You'd rather have rats than dividers here against anything but Gruts, but you run out of space. This army is a lot better with Raelin.

90 Marrden Nagrubs x3
220 Tor-Kul-Na
210 Phantom Knights x3
520, 21 hexes

I just played this one in a 600 point tournament... with Raelin. The PKs are fine without Raelin, but TKN and the grubs really like having her around. A similar approach would be PKx4+Zombiesx4, which is thematically awesome but might result in the zombies dying to quickly to be effective.

One more obvious option:

10 Otonashi
240 Gladiatrons x3
120 Blastarons x2
150 Major Q10
520, 23 hexes

That's certainly competitive, with the G&B dominant over gruts/dwarves and Q10 giving the 4th Mass trouble.

PKx4+Stingersx4 doesn't really fit my style of play but has some very obvious appeal as a counter to the army above.

Again, my point here (other than to satisfy my compulsive need to spit out armies) is that the point total has a huge impact on which armies are dominant in a 1-general environment.

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by ollie

5. To use Vydar, who I think has better general-specific armies than Utgar, as a particular example: glads/blasts is one of the best armies around and I would say it outperforms anything that Utgar can assemble.

I think 24 Stingers would do well vs glad/blasts at a 500 point level, especially if there are no glyphs.

[nyys]

Originally Posted by dok

Aquilla options:

Spoiler Alert!

60 Darrak
110 Migol
350 Axegrinders x5
520, 22 hexes

...look less attractive, because they don't match up well against sustained WTF.

At TotalCon back in February that exact army was played by more than one person and performed extremely well (I went 3-1 with it in General Wars). Though as you pointed out, it was the 4th mass that did me in, and some of the other folks that fielded them (the Axegrinders).