C3G HR Department: the Dumping Ground

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Balantai

Maybe we shouldn't qualify it to 2 hours of playtesting, but 2 hours of "X" work.

X = Art design, playtesting, etc. Whitestuff certainly made up for more than enough with his comic strip, box art and rulebook cover. I'm guessing that took him more time than we give him credit for.

I'm not against that - but we'd need a list of activities that we all agreed on qualified. I don't think simple card design or editing, for instance, are enough.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by whitestuff

The last thing that I wanted to say right now is that I think that you guys are a little hung-up on time spent play-testing. I can guarantee that I spent as much time putting art together as you guys did play-testing.

I'm not looking to toot my own horn. I'm pointing it out to show that there many different ways to contribute IMHO.

While I really appreciate all of the thanks and "exceptions" being made for me (honestly, I really do! ), I have to agree with whitestuff here. There are a lot of things to be done here besides playtesting - artwork, proofreading, research, hashing out rules, or whatever. And much of it is behind the scenes and not as apparent as playtesting, but it is just as time-consuming, if not more. I don't think any of those (including playtesting) is more or less important than the rest, so I wouldn't be in favor of saying a "Hero must playtest X hours per month", regardless of whether I was exempted or not. Just as I wouldn't be in favor of saying a "Hero must create X custom figures per month". I think the key is that any participant should contribute in a significant fashion, regardless of how that is, as long as it's in an area that's needed. Whether it is needed and significant will be decided by the rest of the team.


Since Sidekicks can design cards, I feel very strongly about not wanting C3G to be a "training ground" for how to design customs. I would suggest that anyone made a Sidekick should:

• First have a proven track record of making customs that are playable and thematic. I would really prefer that any potential sidekick have gone through the NM24 process at least once. I think of NM24 as the pre-screening or interview process. If someone wants to be a Sidekick, we should nominate one of their cards for NM24 and see how it goes. This is not only important to see how good they are, but also to see how they react to community criticism of their card. As Matt Helm puts it, we have to see if "they love their creations too much".
• Must continue to offer input and constructive criticism on C3G efforts. Not necessarily everything, but enough.
• In my mind, a Sidekick is a "Hero-in-training", so they should also exhibit qualities we would like to see in a Hero.

So by extension, I think a Hero should:

• Have been a Sidekick through at least one complete C3G "release cycle" (one set) and demonstrated a consistent level of participation.
• Have been through NM24 more than once, hopefully at least 3.
• Have been an active and signifcant contributor/creator of a C3G effort in addition to a traditional custom figure card. This could be a map, scenario, ruleset, glyph, etc.
• Have the trust of the rest of the Heroes, since they will be entrusted with a vote.

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm not against that - but we'd need a list of activities that we all agreed on qualified. I don't think simple card design or editing, for instance, are enough.

Agreed. When I wrote "art design", I was referring to what Whitestuff and GreyOwl did.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

• Have been an active and signifcant contributor/creator of a C3G effort in addition to a traditional custom figure card. This could be a map, scenario, ruleset, glyph, etc.

Honestly, this feels like a kind of sneaky way to get around the spirit of the move to ala cart. The idea behind ala cart is that we should be working on what we're interested in working on as a group - and returning the focus to units - encouraging designers to work on something outside of traditional units by dangling this carrot seems to work against this IMO.
I guess when it comes to things like editing and researching and designing - I feel that's something all of us should be doing and all of us have done. I think art design is something that clearly takes a commitment above and beyond that. For instance, I'd say you, Whitestuff, A3n, Hahma (photos), and myself (photos) all went above and beyond in that manner for the World's Finest set. I also feel playtesting is something that clearly takes a commitment above and beyond.
I don't honestly see many other things tangibly on that list. I don't think that research or editing or hashing out rules for instance do so. Especially with the move to ala cart, we'll be researching or hashing out what we're interested in during the design phase. There might be some onus on a designer who chooses to do a design that requires a little bit more research or hashing to do a little bit more there - but it's really hard to require and it's really hard for me to say that because they've made a design that calls for a little bit more of that and they've done a little bit more of that, they're going above and beyond for the group as a whole.
I think there may be exceptions for extensive research projects of sorts like Griffin's C3G Tutorial or the figure inventory that Griffin and Spidey are currently working on. But I don't think there will be that many projects that ambitious in the future, and that would still only cover you for a month, IMO. So I could see putting special occasions on the list for that, but you shouldn't be living off of that forever.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Honestly, this feels like a kind of sneaky way to get around the spirit of the move to ala cart.

That wasn't my intent, but I can kind of see where you're coming from. So I will clarify...

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

For instance, I'd say you, Whitestuff, A3n, Hahma (photos), and myself (photos) all went above and beyond in that manner for the World's Finest set. I also feel playtesting is something that clearly takes a commitment above and beyond.

Well those things, like playtesting and taking photos, would count for something in addition to making a custom figure. What I want to avoid are Heroes that only make custom cards and don't contribute in any other way. That's okay for Sidekicks, but not Heroes. It wouldn't be all that different from making customs in your own thread, except you get to design it collaboratively. If you also playtest, take photos, work on rules, make tutorials, do "project management", perform PR for the group, or do artwork - those all count in my book. You don't necessarily have to submit something through the process besides a figure.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

Well those things, like playtesting and taking photos, would count for something in addition to making a custom figure. What I want to avoid are Heroes that only make custom cards and don't contribute in any other way. That's okay for Sidekicks, but not Heroes. It wouldn't be all that different from making customs in your own thread, except you get to design it collaboratively. If you also playtest, take photos, work on rules, make tutorials, do "project management", perform PR for the group, or do artwork - those all count in my book. You don't necessarily have to submit something through the process besides a figure.

Whew. I was worried I was picking a fight here for a second, which is really, really not my intent, so I'm glad to see we're closer to on the same page than I originally thought. I absolutely agree that one of the main points here is that it has to be about more than just design.
Heck, if we open it up to this many options, I think we ought to think about holding sidekicks to a more than just design standard as well. We might make the requirements a bit higher than a hero, but sidekicks are, after all, able to create customs that get collaborative treatment and are playtested for them by the group.
I guess what I'd be interested in doing is breaking down that list you just put up: "playtest, take photos, work on rules, make tutorials, do "project management", perform PR for the group, or do artwork" and saying just what would be required from each area to make it fairly qualify for someone's monthly quota - and then maybe establish standards for each for a sidekick or for a hero (have a list of what either could do to fulfill their monthly quota).

[Balantai]

Let's just be careful we don't go overboard. What might seem reasonable to one "Hero", might not for another. The last thing I want is for my favorite hobby to feel like is work. Whatever we decide will need to be put up for a vote.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

While I really appreciate all of the thanks and "exceptions" being made for me (honestly, I really do! ), I have to agree with whitestuff here. There are a lot of things to be done here besides playtesting - artwork, proofreading, research, hashing out rules, or whatever. And much of it is behind the scenes and not as apparent as playtesting, but it is just as time-consuming, if not more. I don't think any of those (including playtesting) is more or less important than the rest, so I wouldn't be in favor of saying a "Hero must playtest X hours per month", regardless of whether I was exempted or not. Just as I wouldn't be in favor of saying a "Hero must create X custom figures per month". I think the key is that any participant should contribute in a significant fashion, regardless of how that is, as long as it's in an area that's needed. Whether it is needed and significant will be decided by the rest of the team.

Well didn't the main playtesters do proofreading, research, hash out rules amongst other things? Haven't Bats and Griffin done playtesting in addition to those things listed above, not to mention creating the scenario's and maps and an incredible amount more?

I feel like I contributed beyond just the playtesting by doing research, contributed online, building and tearing down scenario maps to test and take pictures of. Build them again to check how they worked in in the rulesbook, proofread and edited first few pages of rulebook amonst other things. Did a nice tutorial for re-basing figures. I think that while there is more to do than just playtesting, the main playtesters have done more than just playtesting. With the exception of artwork, we've done everything you listed and more.

I'm not going to push anything, it's not worth it really. But I can say that I will be cutting down on my playtesting. If no one else wants to do it, it's on hair off my ass.

[Griffin]

I updated the front post with all of GO's suggestions. We don't have to agree right now on what our standards are, but I think that we can stay in the brainstorm mode for now, collect our thoughts there, and then decide on our direction as we get closer to Ala Cart.

[Griffin]

I really don't see why anyone of us would ever argue against Playtesting as a requirement (unless you can't or are lazy, sorry, but I am gonna be honest). I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect our Heroes (lead designers, spokesmen, voters (senators really), and directors) to spend 2 hours a month playtesting the customs that we are creating for the game that we all claim to love.
In the future, there is not going to be as much work to do as there was in the World's Finest, but the one thing that there will be a butt ton of is Playtesting.
In all honesty, I really don't think that during Ala Cart, anyone of us could find enough work outside of playtesting to compare to what the playtesters have gone through... and to compare research, proof reading, PR, etc. (something that all the playtesters also do) to playtesting is kinda insulting to those of us who are determined to get it done and pull some of the slack...

I don't wanna make this grudge match, but I need to be honest. Please don't disregard my ramblings or think ill of me, I love all of you guys, but if we want to maintain a high standard of customs, we need more involvement in the playtesting before some people get frustrated and walk.

I am only asking for 2 hours a month for playtesting.... just 2 hours.

[IAmBatman]

I'm hard pressed to disagree with anything you wrote there, Griffin.
But in the spirit of not wanting to turn this into a Civil War or anything, I'm certainly willing and open to listening from the perspective from the other side.
I guess, to me, I'd have to see that the standards for something like research or PR or whatever were as high a commitment and provided as high a value as playtesting - on a monthly basis - for them to cover the same requirement for me.
I know that, especially when we get to ala cart, this project is going nowhere without dedicated playtesters. I sure can't say the same thing for dedicated PR guys ... (and I'm not sure even what qualifies as PR for this conversation exactly ...).

[tfelts]

Just my 2 cents...I think you guys are doing a GREAT job and agree with the requirements Griffin has on the first post. I plan on helping playtest sometime in the near future, but really don't expect to design any cards / units, etc...

I want to be labeled as a 'fan'...I will be willing to help out where ever and whenever I can, but don't need a vote, and have the freedom to come and go if life has other things that need to be done...

Thanks again for all the hard work all of you guys have put into this! It is definitely something that my son and I have been enjoying the last few weeks and plan to enjoy for years to come!

If scenarios or maps need playtesting at anytime let me know! I have at least one of every set / release and in some cases two or three of some sets, so I should be able to reconstruct any simple standard map...and I really enjoy scenarios!

Tim