Is there really bad units?

[hobosock]

I've always thought that there aren't any bad heroscape figures. The design team spends way to much time play(test)ing with them for a bad one to be released. Recently I read a thread titled "Embrace the Suck" that brought an interesting view point. There are bad units so that there can be some strategy in the game. How much strategy could there be if all units were equally good?

I think I've settled for a middle road. I still maintain that there aren't bad units, but I think that there are some that aren't as useful. This way, there is still strategy in picking the right units. Any thoughts?

[Warlord Alpha]

Meh, there are just units that aren't as useful as often as other units. Except for one or two units that appear to be totally flawed (yes Hatamoto, that means you.), most units have their uses and their moments at least some of the time. They are just not as universally awesome as units like Nilfheim or Q9, so they are perceived as "bad" relative to these figures. Remember, almost everything is relative!

[TnT2]

The figures whose primary ability depends on a low percentage d20 roll (Dund, Runa, Morsbane, etc) tend to create very bimodal games. When the power works, they do very well. And when it doesn't (as usually the case), they do very poorly. YMMV.

I tend not to enjoy playing these figures for this reason.

You should also read the threads on Power Rankings. There is a lot more advice and thoughts there.

Oh, and debate too

[Mr Migraine]

But remember, the Power Rankings are based on usefulness in a 1v1 400-600 point game on a small map. Units on the D and F list can certainly shine in other scenarios.

[chaoserver]

It depends, in 1v1 there are some units not up to par with certain others. Runa for example is pretty mediocre unless you have just insane luck, but in a game where others are fighting and you stand nearby spamming her aura she almost always will make up for her points and then some. The only unit off the top of my head that is just bad is shiori.

[Manatee]

Yes.

They're called Zettian Guards.

[Kroc]

I've often come down on the side of "the playtesters know what they are doing" but I gotta put in for the other side as well. Our accumulated hours playing the figures does dwarf what the playtesters can spend on each unit. And also the cost of some units depends on other future releases, some of which either don't come when expected or won't be released for a long time.

GB once said that costing was based on drafting on an optimal map for the given unit. This means that some units with niche powers (Dzu-Teh, Obsidian Guards, etceteras) will be generally weak, so they are correctly costed, but for specific situations.

But the power rankings? They are based on the tournament scene, where you have double blind drafting and generally 500 point armies. They don't tell us the true overall value of a unit. We are supposed to draft based on the map we are playing on.

And remember there will always be a F units and A units. The balance is very tight in HS, Many of the great players have won tourneys with "bad" units. There's an entire thread on having the guts not to use the best. This would be impossible in many games.

RevDyer is famed for his Sentinels/4th Mass army, before he won tournaments with that combo Sentinels were B-, now they are A-. Because one guy figured out how to use them.

EDIT: But gosh, wouldn't I be happy if you changed the "is" in the thread title to "are."

[White Noise]

Originally Posted by Manatee

They're called Zettian Guards.

Don't knock the guards. They've got the highest defense of any squad, and if I remember correctly someone won a tournament with them in their army.

[TnT2]

Originally Posted by Manatee

Yes.

They're called Zettian Guards.

As Kroc has just added, everything can be situational. We just played a defensive castle battle (with the capture the flag - Hellcat Keep), and my oppponent chose the Zettians to guard the glyphs. They started in position, with height. And just guarded the glyphs. They were more effective than any other unit we tried in that location.

[chas]

I'm always a positive supporter of the game and the design/playtest crew. There is a great creative variety in the heroes and squads. Most are different rather than being generally superior. Learning to use the less generally powerful figures is a great part of the game, and a balancing factor in handicapping superior players. I note a pal who won't use firearm units, for example.

However, that being said; yes, some units ARE better than others in general. I know because certain pals of mine have to be dissuaded from always taking them in their armies (you know who you are).

And yes, there HAS been some power creep since the beginning. For example, those hard to use D20 dependent units now usually get a a 25% or so chance, rather than needing only a 20 or 19-20, even if their powers are less effective. Synergies are usually effective immediatly now when the figures come out, rather than waiting for GODOT, er, I mean Capuan Gladiators and such. This is a Good Thing, as the newer figures are played more often.

But since I'm primarily not a tournament player, I could care less! VIVA HEROSCPAPE.

While we're being controversial, let's bring up the Marvel Imbalence. I said when Marvel, which I love, first came out, that it was a mistake to announce that it was not compatible with Classic. I stand by that opinion today, and the proof is the semi-discontinuation of the line. It was the biggest goof since Heroscape came out. And where are my darn Marvel expansions? They should have finished DC by now and be on to the Independents, like Heroclix. Hooray for customs... Note that the C3G crew have fixed their own Superhero set, as the creators of Marvel should have done at the get go, by providing it with squads, glyphs, and other game balancing factors, so that the superheroes were/are not too strong to fit in with Classic. And isn't this a tacit agreement with what I'm saying, actually? Eh?

JOIN OUR CULT! YOU HAVE NO CHOICE!

[Uprising]

The only terrible unit starts with an A and ends with a colarh.

[killercactus]

Every other unit in the game has a situation in which it can shine, IMO.

If your opponent drafts an all-melee army, Taro + Samurai would probably kick it's teeth in.

Knights x4 - 280
Gilbert - 385
Alastair Macdirk - 495, 18 hexes

This is a very solid, thematic, "A" build. It probably gets crushed to pieces by:

Hatamoto Taro - 130
Tagawa Samurai - 250
Kaemon Awa - 370
Tagawa Samurai Archers x2 - 500, 11 hexes

Which has one "A" unit, one "F" unit, and a bunch of "B"s and "C"s, but also drips of theme.

I'm surprised more players don't try Dund right now (especially with Agent Skahen) with all the common swarms out there. There's nothing better than winning initiative, hitting Crippling Gaze on your opponent's 4th Mass horde, and slaughtering Mass without any retaliation.

I'd like to try Acolarh with a horde of Warriors of Ashra. He gives them some extra speed to get into engagement, and once there, a saving throw on one of them would be very annoying. Ironically, this army also crushes the Knight army above:

Acolarh - 110
Theracus - 150
Warriors of Ashra x7 - 500, 24 hexes