Migol and the Axegrinders of Burning Forge Discussion Thread

[Zealot]

I haven't had the opportunity to play the Dwarves yet but from every angle I look at them, I don't see them as a niche unit.

In the vast majority of tournaments I've been to, there is always at least 1 large or huge figure in my opponent's army (most of the time it was one or both of the Q brothers but I digress) so getting use out of fearless advantage doesn't seem like a problem to me.

I love their sculpts and have been wanting Dwarves in Heroscape for a while but its the "Dwarven Strategic Bonding" + Migol that really sold me on how much fun they would be.

Think about it this way...
The knights have some powerful heroes but once they die the knights lose some of their advantages (extra movement from Gilbert, attack from Finn, etc...)
The Macdirks lose their attack once their chosen hero bites the dust making them a 2/2 permanently.
The Orcs (melee or arrow) need their large and huge characters to be worthwhile at all attack and defense wise.

The Dwarves may only have 1 hero but he is a TANK (offensively AND Defensively), and once he does die the Dwarves effectively lose NOTHING, they just permanently gain movement. They still get their bonuses to attack, defense, and their movement jumps to 6 for the rest of the game.

My last point is touching on what Aldin said, the Knights have a better defense but the Dwarves have serious terrain advantages. First of all is their size, they are small enough that they can be hidden very easily from ranged fire and can sometimes avoid engagements all together due to terrain height (I play Hivelords and Nagrubs extensively and a height of 3 with "Climb" is amazingly useful offensively).
The second point is what Aldin directly said, because of climb and their ability to have a move of 6 whenever you want, the Dwarves will often be able to achieve height before the Knights would which would give them a defense of 4 anyway.
Never underestimate Climb + a move of 6.

I just bought the hero pack and 3 packs of Dwarves, I can't wait to play these guys.

~Zealot, who is "very dangerous over short distances."

[spiteofthedice]

Originally Posted by Zealot

In the vast majority of tournaments I've been to, there is always at least 1 large or huge figure in my opponent's army

I don't always find this in casual play, but I see their value against some of our heavyweights like Q9 and Krug. I also realize that playing the dwarves against these heavyweights will not always mean launching 4 attacks of 4 dice every turn. Rather, it may simply mean that Krug doesn't manage to do as much damage because he's trying to stay away from the dwarves. Hopefully, though, they will get to actually use the ability often enough for it to prove useful as more than a metacognitive factor.

Originally Posted by Zealot

the Dwarves have serious terrain advantages. First of all is their size, they are small enough that they can be hidden very easily from ranged fire and can sometimes avoid engagements all together due to terrain height
Never underestimate Climb + a move of 6.

This is very interesting. It makes me think about the simplicity of the maps we often play on. I think if we create more rugged terrain, I would see more value in the 6M+Climb+hiding combo. Point conceded.

Originally Posted by Zealot

I just bought the hero pack and 3 packs of Dwarves, I can't wait to play these guys.

Wait, you haven't even tried them yet? Ok, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

[Bonecrusher]

Originally Posted by Aldin

You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

~Aldin, ascending to ever greater heights

Actually, I think you were saying the Dwarves can go higher because of climb and six move as compared to two separate moves. But the Knights will still have height more because JD > Extra move from not bonding.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Bonecrusher

But the Knights will still have height more because JD > Extra move from not bonding.

Knights flat out can't climb anything higher than three, need some luck to get the right amount of extra movement for climbing and aren't very mobile in congested terrain where Sir Gilbert can't see everyone. JD is great for river crossing, but mediocre for climbing.

~Aldin, highlighting the Axegrinders' positives while still acknowledging the great points about the Knights

[StarofEarendil]

I've actually seen Dwarves vs. Knights, and it was interesting. While the Dwarves were able to take the map's main bridge first, gaining height advantage over the Knights, but even then, though they killed off most of the Knights, they all ended up getting killed (even Migol, the last one to die). Gilbert even persisted for a few rounds Migol died.
I also tried a Dwarf army against Q9-Krav build (on Derelict). The Q9-Krav build also had the two 80-point viking champs and the Marro Warriors. By round two, the Dwarves had cut down both viking champs, and then went on to engage the Krav, while one Dwarf engaged Q9 from height. Five attack from height from the Dwarves can be quite powerful.

[mccombju]

Originally Posted by Zealot

First of all is their size, they are small enough that they can be hidden very easily from ranged fire and can sometimes avoid engagements all together due to terrain height (I play Hivelords and Nagrubs extensively and a height of 3 with "Climb" is amazingly useful offensively).

Zealot, could you expand on the circumstances when you use the height of 3 to avoid engagements? Would you use it to wall off Tor-Kul-Na or Migol Ironwill from attacks? Or would you use it to encourage an opponent to move to a space where they think they will get to attack from height, only to be denied that satisfaction? I'd like to hear about your experiences with this strategy.

[Zealot]

Originally Posted by mccombju

Zealot, could you expand on the circumstances when you use the height of 3 to avoid engagements? Would you use it to wall off Tor-Kul-Na or Migol Ironwill from attacks? Or would you use it to encourage an opponent to move to a space where they think they will get to attack from height, only to be denied that satisfaction? I'd like to hear about your experiences with this strategy.

I was mostly referring to the ability to deny an opponent height advantage on me. Many maps are built with rugged terrain that often has height differences of three. Battlements and Bridge walls are a good example. If you use that knowledge to avoid engagements then you can effectively give yourself a first strike advantage against opposing melee units. Having figures that are so short but able to climb as well as a tall figure gives you the ability to avoid ranged fire more effectively while not limiting your vertical movement.

The Nagrubs I use specifically to keep my hivelords alive (obviously) but the height of 3 plus climb sometimes allows me to move a Nagrub next to an enemy figure without becoming engaged, meaning that my enemy has to lose their height advantage in order to strike at me. This tactic would be even more effective with the Dwarves because of their higher attack and defense, ESPECIALLY if you use this strategy with Migol.

I don't try to block off my Hivelords from enemy attacks with my Nagrubs unless I have 4 squads, 3 or less squads and they are only for healing and occasionally attacking if possible while still being engaged to my hivelord.
Dwarves, I think, would be more effective offensively because you would be able to deny your opponent some attacks from height while easily acquiring them for yourself.

I hope that helps, I tend to ramble.

~Zealot

[mccombju]

Thanks for the clarification, Zealot. Cheers!

[Sokol]

I ran two games of Dwarves v. Anubian Wolves the other night (4 squads of each and their respective heroes: Khosumet and Migol (dwarves = 390 points, wolves = 375 points). The Anubian Wolves won both times. The first game ended with 3 wolves standing and the second with 1 wolf left. It was a blast, but I had hoped the dwarves would stand up a little better than they did. I always pictured them as being a little more durable. I was amazed at how fast they fell, even when the wolves rolled poorly. 3 defense just doesn't hack it.

I will have to try a few Knights v. Dwarves battles...that sounds like fun.

[Bonecrusher]

Originally Posted by Aldin

Knights flat out can't climb anything higher than three, need some luck to get the right amount of extra movement for climbing and aren't very mobile in congested terrain where Sir Gilbert can't see everyone. JD is great for river crossing, but mediocre for climbing.

~Aldin, highlighting the Axegrinders' positives while still acknowledging the great points about the Knights

How many height differences of three can the Dwarves take advantage of? That height diff is uncommon (not many on a map), the chance you would be next to a height of > 3 is also uncommon, and the chance the Dwarves would have enough move (Bonding, having to bring up new Dwarves cause of 3 defense, etc.) is uncommon. Sure they aren't very mobile in congested terrain, but the Dwarves aren't very mobile when they bond. When the Dwarves don't bond, they have one less squad member. The Dwarves huge advantage is that they are incredible against large/huge figures (AKA Q9).

~Bonecrusher, trying to like the Dwarves.

[1Mmirg]

FWIW, I've seen the dwarves in action on maps with battlements (like the Embattled Fen and Invasion). The battlements are perfect for the dwarves--they can hide behind them and also hurdle them. Fun stuff.

[Dysole]

Let me also add that I played a game where Migol got to sit on Gerda from almost Round 1. (Which is pretty dang evil) Once that happened, the Dwarves were deadly and wiped out pretty much everything by their lonesome. (Q9 sat in the back and took pictures) It was a Protectors army so I don't know how much that means, but I say that if you can get the Dwarves a +1 defense bonus go for it. Hmm...maybe SOTM Raelin is a good person to put in an army with them?

They also crushed an Arrow Grut army, so I think they will do well against armies with large figures. I also think pairing them up with a Q9, Q10, Braxas, Nilfy, or somthing that can take on small squad figures helps a ton.

The Knights may have the better constant defense and be better overall but since I need more of them and don't have Sir Gilbert, the Dwarves are the best I got.