So Dark You Can't Even See.

[Dualahorn]

I have a question about line of sight.
Here is the story. My spider goes deep into the dark depths of my cave. Then Syvarris comes along being in range, he decide to shoot my spider. I think he can't shoot the spider because it is pitch black in the cave and you can't honestly see spider without a flashlight. I think that even though the elf has a clear shot at the spider the attack is not valid because he can not see a part of the spider.

What are your thoughts on this matter.


Edit from Bunjee:
In order to save people some reading time, the consensus is as follows:
According to the Rule books (RotV manual pg 13, SotM manual pg 11, Marvel pg 6)

Line of Sight: To attack a targeted figure, your figure must be able to “see” it
from its location. Unlike Range, the Line of Sight is an imaginary straight line
between you and the targeted figure; it has nothing to do with the spaces on
the battlefield. If the targeted figure is (for example) behind a ruin or a cliff, so
that your figure can’t “take aim” at it, then no attack is possible.

The rules further state that you can verify by getting behind your figure to check if they can "see" the opponent. As this is not always possible, it is accepted that the imaginary line of sight exists if there is nothing that physically interrupts it.

Feel free to read the remaining pages of the discussion, you may find the logic paths interesting.

[nyys]

I think you may have an argument here. If you absolutely cannot see the spider due to darkness, then I'd say you can't shoot at it.

Though for simplicity sake (going with the fact that the game is designed for 8yr olds), I'm going to guess that an official ruling would allow your opponent to shoot.

How's that for answering without giving a resolution?

[KingArthur1976]

Everybody knows elves can see in the dark. (D&D throwback)

[GaryLASQ]

If that is your story then put it in the rules of a scenario for the battlefield. Any figure that goes into the cave cannot be targeted by a non-adjacent figure -- whether your opponent can sort of see the figure or not.

Even if the cave wasn't totally pitch black, then imagine it is. Scenarios exist for players to use their imagination.

[Sherman Davies]

Very interesting question.

I would say that Syvarris would not be allowed to shoot. I know the rules don't take lighting conditions into account, but they DO say that a figure must be able to "see" a non-adjacent target's hit zone in order to attack. Seems pretty clear cut to me, and I think 8-year olds would be able to grasp that as well.

Of course, there's always "If players disagree about whether or not there is a clear Line of Sight, just roll the 20-sided die; the high roller wins the dispute."

[temp.nerd]

"Syvaris shoots 2 random shots into the cave and then heres a spider groan"
Im guessing that is what would happen when an elf blind fires.

[Cavalier]

How are you moving your figs in a cave so dark there is no light in it?

As was said, if this is part of a scenario, then simply add the caveat to the scenario rules. You cannot, however, make that stipulation mid-game and have it considered fair.

[CheddarLimbo]

Originally Posted by GaryLASQ

If that is your story then put it in the rules of a scenario for the battlefield. Any figure that goes into the cave cannot be targeted by a non-adjacent figure -- whether your opponent can sort of see the figure or not.

Even if the cave wasn't totally pitch black, then imagine it is. Scenarios exist for players to use their imagination.

That is a great custom scenario rule! I've made a few maps that have "cave" side paths that exist off the main board, where you enter or exit on one spot, then pop out somewhere else on another part of the map. It would be a great idea to add the "darkness" restriction to combat in that sub-level area.

[Tai-Pan]

I think the question here is how are the official rules interpreted pertaining to this particular case. I really have no good answer. I do however have an interesting question.

If you can't shoot at it because it's all dark in the cave, then what happens when you play heroscape in the dark with no lights? No shooting allowed?

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by Tai-Pan

I think the question here is how are the official rules interpreted pertaining to this particular case. I really have no good answer. I do however have an interesting question.

If you can't shoot at it because it's all dark in the cave, then what happens when you play heroscape in the dark with no lights? No shooting allowed?

That is the point of my question above. If you made a cave deep enough that there was no light, it would be impossible to move figures in it. This could only come up in a scenario.

[Elf_Archer]

You could feel the hexes, I do that sometimes.

And, what if you played Heroscape outdoors, and suddenly a thick fog appeared.

AND, youe are playing on a huge Dr. W. sized map, and you cant see too far, and you have a figure with soo many boosts that is has 11 range.

Would you be able to shoot it?

And then it snowed on your board, and snow completely covers your Syvaris, would you be able to shoot it?

No I'm not serious, but what would you think about this anyways.

[rym]

Originally Posted by CheddarLimbo

That is a great custom scenario rule! I've made a few maps that have "cave" side paths that exist off the main board, where you enter or exit on one spot, then pop out somewhere else on another part of the map. It would be a great idea to add the "darkness" restriction to combat in that sub-level area.

You ever played Rÿchean's "Creeping Fog" scenario? (I'm crediting it to him though someone else may have come up with it. I do remember him mentioning it several times though). It's basically the idea that eachround, the effective range reduces by one. So, for example, after 7 rounds, the Krav's range is 1.