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  #1  
Old February 5th, 2008, 03:04 PM
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ARM - Anti-range movement

The purpose of the Anti-range movement (ARM) is to discuss tips and tactics for the Melee-based army.

At the competitive level, Heroscape is largely range-dominated...but does it have to be? What are ways to overcome range advantage? Some suggested topics:

Rush one squad at a time (Bum-Rush) or keep your army in a big group.
Take high ground at all costs, thus denying them to your opponent.
Take the middle of the board.
Surround the enemy.
Charge the opponent's starting zone.

Also appropriate are army lists of successful Melee armies.

The question will arise, "What constitutes a Melee army?" This is a valid question. Can an army containing ONE ranged squad/hero (Krav, for example) still be considered melee? How about Dragons? Are Braxas and Nilfheim ranged squads, even though four and five range, respectively, are limited in their extent? What about Runa? These are also up for discussion.

Let the ARM begin!

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Old February 5th, 2008, 03:20 PM
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Re: ARM - Anti-range movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
The purpose of the Anti-range movement (ARM) is to discuss tips and tactics for the Melee-based army.

At the competitive level, Heroscape is largely range-dominated...but does it have to be? What are ways to overcome range advantage? Some suggested topics:

Rush one squad at a time (Bum-Rush) or keep your army in a big group.
Take high ground at all costs, thus denying them to your opponent.
Take the middle of the board.
Surround the enemy.
Charge the opponent's starting zone.

Also appropriate are army lists of successful Melee armies.

The question will arise, "What constitutes a Melee army?" This is a valid question. Can an army containing ONE ranged squad/hero (Krav, for example) still be considered melee? How about Dragons? Are Braxas and Nilfheim ranged squads, even though four and five range, respectively, are limited in their extent? What about Runa? These are also up for discussion.

Let the ARM begin!
Guns > Swords.


Make the enemy come to you. It seems to me that everybody feels the need to banzai charge the enemy. Stay on the defence.



That's a terrible idea.

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  #3  
Old February 5th, 2008, 03:49 PM
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I've always been a melee over range kind of guy. There's just really no ranged units that I like in the game except for maybe Sonlen. With that being said, in my last tournament I only had 1 ranged unit, Johnny Shotgun, not a powerful one even and I placed 4th out of 34, I think. I think that the knights with Sir Gilbert are a great counter to range. I know in a few games my opponents underestimated how fast my knights could get to them. I also think the move + 2 glyph is a lot more crucial than most people think it is. It helps to close that gap on ranged units usually in 1 turn. Obviously the EOV and even the Armoc and Venoc Vipers can be good against range with their high movment. The hounds and the deathstalkers have pretty high move and better than average defense and are good ranged counters. Cyprein is a great counter to ranged units. I think range has the upper hand, but I think the gap is a lot closer than most people think.

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  #4  
Old February 5th, 2008, 04:16 PM
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Yay for the ARM! I put together a list of the winningest melee armies from the Tournament armies played thread. In my opinion a single ranged unit or hero does not devalue the Melee-centeredness of an army, it adds spice. But anyway, what do we see in these armies?

First thing I notice is the Minions and Knights. Tough melee squads that can take a beating from those bullets in the time it takes to close to melee range. Heavy gruts also make two appearances, but Nerak is probably instrumental to keeping them alive long enough.

Second, two of the three armies without losses include Braxas and probably focused their tactics around her.

Third, there are either vast quantities of one squad (3+) or one big bullet sponge like Krug or Charos. They are going to get a lot of chances to shoot you, so you better be ready to take it.

Elstree
Runa
Minions of Utgar x 3
Marro Warriors
(500 points)
4-1 (second place out of eight contestants)

Matthias Maccabeus
Knights x 3 - 210
Alastair - 320
Thorgim - 400
Finn - 480
Isamu - 490
record 3-1

Knights x 3 - 210
Alastair - 320
Gilbert - 425
Johnny - 490
Isamu - 500
record 4-1

DrLivingston
Braxas, Krug, Deathreaversx4, Isamu (500 pts)
The army was evil. I made no friends that day. Braxas melted Velenne's & Rodriquez's armies of Blastatrons/Gladiatrons and I beat Luke on a lucky roll destroying a glyph sitting Raelin.
Results 4-0 (note: this was in a heat of battle variant tourney)

Velenne
Army: Braxas, Charos, 2x rats
Dragons rule. I'll say it again- DRAGONS RULE. Keep your rat screen up, and it's only a matter of time before Braxas wins the day.
Result: 4-0

Lonewolf
Army = 5xHeavy Gruts + Nerak(400 pts)
Win against TheMainMan, Chaos Child, Skynight, Lord Paul. Loss to Carravagio.
Results 4-1 (note: also heat of battle)

Uprising
Rhode Island - NHSD Team Tourney
Krug, Nerak, 4x Heavy Gruts
3-1

Greg the Elder
My very own Tracktown Throwdown tourney May '07
Minions of Utgar x4
Marro Warriors
4-0

So what does this mean for us in our current competitive climate? I think minions still are a very viable option. I'm curious about the possibilties with Tor-Kul-Na and some nagrubs.

TKN - 220
SBN - 160
Nagrubs x4 - 120

or

TKN - 220
Nagrubs x3 - 90
Marrden Hounds x2 - 180
Isamu - 10

or

TKN - 220
Nagrubs x3 - 90
NGS - 90
Romans x2 - 100

Or any number of other combos. That 190 left over after TKN and 3 nagrubs can fit a lot of guys.

I actually pondered bringing this to my tournament last year:

Valguard - 110
Romans x2 - 100
Braxas - 210
Kelda - 80

It tested real well against Q9 and company, but I decided against it out of an irrational fear of counterstrike.

Thanks for starting this thread, Messenger!

EDIT: took out the army with Aubriens in it...whoops!
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  #5  
Old February 5th, 2008, 04:18 PM
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Some melee armies that I've had good success with:

Cyprien - 150
Sonya - 45
Zombies x5 - 300

Total = 495 (I only have 4 squads of Zombies and played DED instead of the 5th, but I think more Zombies would be better).

Ornak - 100
Tornak - 100
Grimnak - 120
Blade Gruts x4 - 160
Marcu - 20

Total = 500. This army has fantastic synergy and moves rather quickly. It works much better if there is a strong glyph on the board (Attack, Defense, Move) that Marcu can get and hold very early (and he won't turn on you, thanks to the Red Flag). It forces the enemy to focus on him and gives your Orcs time to close. And one that I've never tried but I think would be loads of fun...

Venoc Warlord - 120
EOV - 100
Venoc Vipers x7 - 280

Total = 500. It has 25 starting spaces, so you're probably down 1 Venoc, but a couple of Frenzy rolls and this could be menacing. Watch out for the AE though... And just for fun.....

Drake SotM - 170
Deathwalker 7000 - 100
EOV - 100
Ninjas of the Northern Wind - 110
Isamu - 10

Total = 490. All of these characters have strong protection against ranged attacks. Not much synergy, but the opponent doesn't have much choice but to close to melee.

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  #6  
Old February 5th, 2008, 05:53 PM
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Re: ARM - Anti-range movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaGoomba Slayer
Make the enemy come to you. It seems to me that everybody feels the need to banzai charge the enemy. Stay on the defence.
Are you suggesting turtling (staying in your starting zone)?

I agree with your overall assessment that rushing in generally gets you shot in the face, but how do you overcome the back-up and shoot tactic employed by ranged squads? At some point you must make a run for them. When is the best time?

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

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  #7  
Old February 5th, 2008, 06:31 PM
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how about a 500 point team of:
1x Setinals of jandar
1x Sir denrick
1x Concan the kyrie warrior
3x knights of wenston

all the figures have ok defence with 4 a piece and the knights can human bond...
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  #8  
Old February 5th, 2008, 06:46 PM
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I'll echo the thumbs up for Minions. Codeman has been playing them recently with decent results. He finished 3-2 and 7th out of 30 at the last tournament he was in with a 550 point army of 5x Minions of Utgar. I beat him in his last game, but by less than 100 points. His dice rolls and the glyphs that turned up definitely could have turned out a little better for him. In one game that day, he got Valda and Common Attack and absolutely cleaned house.

Didn't someone get 2nd on NHD in Texas with 5x Zombies and 2x Shades of Bleakwoode? I'd like to get more details on how that went down.

For the other half of the topic, trying for back to back turns between rounds is often a good way to advance.

Part of me thinks that adding Thorian to some glyph pools would help give all melee armies a boost, even though it would have the unwanted side-effect of boosting Q9 even further against ranged squads.

Also, Sacred Band, Roman Legionnaires, and Blade Gruts are almost too cheap. In games much over 400 points with 24 hex limits, 10-12.5 points per hex for these guys means that you'll sometimes have to get more Champions/Warlords than you actually want. I think all three of these squads would see more play again in tournaments with lower point values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #9  
Old February 5th, 2008, 07:43 PM
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Re: ARM - Anti-range movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaGoomba Slayer
Make the enemy come to you. It seems to me that everybody feels the need to banzai charge the enemy. Stay on the defence.
Are you suggesting turtling (staying in your starting zone)?

I agree with your overall assessment that rushing in generally gets you shot in the face, but how do you overcome the back-up and shoot tactic employed by ranged squads? At some point you must make a run for them. When is the best time?
This tactic has some merit in that, if you just sit there and make the range come at you, they probably only get one shot at you before to run up and engage them (if you have fast front-line troops).

However, what that doesn't take into account is height differences and positioning strategy. If I'm playing a ranged army and the melee army is just sitting there, I'm going to take my time securing every high point, glyph, choke point, etc. that I can, and I'm also going to make sure my reinforcements aren't far behind my front line shooters. I think it's worth melee armies taking a couple extra shots on the way in if they can deny their ranged opponents high ground, tactical positioning and glyphs.

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  #10  
Old February 5th, 2008, 08:21 PM
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I'm surprised ROTV Drake hasn't gotten more love in this thread. Is that because there's so many special attacks out there now? He and a squad or two of rats would be greatly challenging to an all 4th Mass army, I'd think. Even with Q9, by the time he's in range of Q9's special attack, the Quelix gun will only be able to go off once before Drake can close in and take a swipe with his 6 attack. Especially if he has Marcus at his back. And with Marcus comes the Romans and bonding - bonding being an essential tool for challenging ranged foes with Melee. If you can bond and use multiple commons, you might not get everybody there, but you should get enough there to overwhelm inferior defenses ...

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  #11  
Old February 5th, 2008, 08:25 PM
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Re: ARM - Anti-range movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaGoomba Slayer
Make the enemy come to you. It seems to me that everybody feels the need to banzai charge the enemy. Stay on the defence.
Are you suggesting turtling (staying in your starting zone)?

I agree with your overall assessment that rushing in generally gets you shot in the face, but how do you overcome the back-up and shoot tactic employed by ranged squads? At some point you must make a run for them. When is the best time?
Yes i'm suggesting turtling.

Why? Thousands died trying to storm trenches in World War 1.
I also have just played a real-time strategy game against an all-out attack enemy. Many of his soldiers died in his hopeless assualt, and my resulting counter attack. I captured his factory to gain 2x the reinforcements, then parked my whole army around his spawn point for easy kills. Single grunt respawns, 2 gunships, a heavy tank, 7 grunts, 5 bazooka guys, and an AA vehicle disenegrate the bastard.

End of rant.

I'm also suggesting getting some range of your own, maybe the AE, the Krav, a squad or two of Microcorp, etc.

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  #12  
Old February 5th, 2008, 08:34 PM
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The answer to range is more range. Barring that the answer is high movement.

This I really want to try some day...

120 = Venoc Warlord
120 = Venoc Vipers(3x)
065 = Armoc Vipers(1x)
150 = Cyprien
045 = Sonya
---------------
500 = Total

Its got 7 move + slither, 9 move + slither and frenzy, 8 move stealth flying, and 6 move flying.
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