Unit Strategy Review: How to use Deathwalker 9000

[Taeblewalker]

I added a bit about targeting elf heroes.

[Toad Rocket]

In response to Sarpedon I would say the one thing to consider with the OM placement is that DW9K isnt, or at least shouldnt, be used as first wave. First wave usually consists of swarmers and glyph grabbers to gain position/glyps ASAP. DW9K would be coming out typically as second wave or third/last wave. While this doesnt negate his flaws per say, but I think you slightly over embelished how bad the OM placement can be.

If your opening 3 turns are on DW, yeah, then that costs you badly for unit placement in the initial phases of the game. However, if you already have your swarmers out in the field, then the OM cost isnt as nearly as bad. Mind you, I do agree that he does have a higher cost of OM placement as an OM on him counts for only one move, though it is offset slightly by his special attack which allows you the oppurtunity to hit multiple units.

[Sarpedon]

Greetings, Toad Rocket.

I'm currently on vacation from generating threads/posts, but I reserve the right to respond. I hear what you say regarding the mid-late game use of DWK 9000 as being optimal and I would agree. However, I don't agree that its special attack helps much.

DWK 9000's explosion special attack is a bit like the Knights of Weston's Coward's Reward ability. If your opponent knows you have it and fully understands it, he will never give you the opportunity to use it: he'll keep his units spread out. That's why I think it's overpriced. Its special attack never gets a chance to be exploited in most (tournament) maps against most (good tournament) opponents.

Also, whether at the start, middle or end of a game, order markers on DWK 9000 still do less than order markers on the 4th Mass., Stingers, etc.. That is just a fact. Ranged common squads would take over the glyphs (even if they have to destroy the units you have holding them) while DWK 9000 (perhaps) destroys one per turn. There are just too many minuses and you can bet one of them will make you lose one way or another.

140 points could be better spent on a couple of decent ranged squads. Sure, DWK 9000 is fine to play at home, but I wouldn't recommend you take it to a (competitive) tournament. That's just my experience. Perhaps in the future something will make it more playable in tournaments, who knows. Anyway, have fun playing it in casual games.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

DWK 9000's explosion special attack is a bit like the Knights of Weston's Coward's Reward ability. If your opponent knows you have it and fully understands it, he will never give you the opportunity to use it: he'll keep his units spread out. That's why I think it's overpriced. Its special attack never gets a chance to be exploited in most (tournament) maps against most (good tournament) opponents.

Agreed, however, there are two notable caveats to this. One is that you may get the opportunity against some opponents whose figures rely on adjacency. Of course, most such figures don't have to remain adjacent, and can simply spread out and give up their associated bonuses. But is they give up their adjacency bonuses, that's a positive, too.

This leads into the second point, which is that simply by having an unrevealed OM sitting on a figure with explosive attack, you can limit what your opponent is willing to do in figure placement. This can have all sorts of advantages, like limiting how many figures your opponent places on height or how effectively a key choke point is blocked.

If throwing the "X" on an explosive attack figure (or occasionally a number, just to keep 'em guessing) weakens your opponent's figure positioning, then that can help you in ways that fall through the cracks in a simple "how much can this kill" analysis.

Of course, you can achieve this same effect for roughly half the price with one of the cowboys, and you can get a lot more bang for your big-ticket explosive attack buck by spending another 45 and taking Zelrig. So don't read this as an endorsement of DW9k, per se.

[Toad Rocket]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Greetings, Toad Rocket.

I'm currently on vacation from generating threads/posts, but I reserve the right to respond. I hear what you say regarding the mid-late game use of DWK 9000 as being optimal and I would agree. However, I don't agree that its special attack helps much.

DWK 9000's explosion special attack is a bit like the Knights of Weston's Coward's Reward ability. If your opponent knows you have it and fully understands it, he will never give you the opportunity to use it: he'll keep his units spread out. That's why I think it's overpriced. Its special attack never gets a chance to be exploited in most (tournament) maps against most (good tournament) opponents.

Also, whether at the start, middle or end of a game, order markers on DWK 9000 still do less than order markers on the 4th Mass., Stingers, etc.. That is just a fact. Ranged common squads would take over the glyphs (even if they have to destroy the units you have holding them) while DWK 9000 (perhaps) destroys one per turn. There are just to many minuses and you can bet one of them will make you lose one way or another.

140 points could be better spent on a couple of decent ranged squads. Sure, DWK 9000 is fine to play at home, but I wouldn't recommend you take it to a (competitive) tournament. That's just my experience. Perhaps in the future something will make it more playable in tournaments, who knows. Anyway, have fun playing it in casual games.

I hear you, and I do not really disagree with you. My only real point is that in your orginal post you compared to 9K to the Queen in chess. If you move the queen right off the bat you lose valuable set up with your pawns. But if you have your pawns set up, then having three turns in a row with the queen may or may not be a bad thing. Same with 9k, once your 'pawns' are set up then OM placement on him isnt that horrible.
However, I do agree that he is not efficient with OM usuage and yes, using a squad of 4th or stingers would be more efficient.
I am not really disagreeing with you in concept, but rather the extent you orginally expressed.

[Sarpedon]

Greetings, dok.

To your first point, yes, IF your opponent is playing with the Roman Legionnaires (who need clustering for defensive bonuses), the Nakita Agents, the Elf Wizards, etc., then you will probably get a chance to use the explosive special attack at some point. Nevertheless, an opposing army comprised of A and A+ units (tournament-worthy), in the hands of a decent opponent, will rarely, if ever, give you a chance. As you said, you could achieve this same effect with Shotgun Sullivan for much less money.

The second point about "keeping an opponent guessing" by placing the x marker on DWK 9000 I don't really agree with. If I have a competitive army, I will still secure glyphs and still attack because the threat is far less than the potential benefit that I will gain. One order marker on DWK 9000 and then what? He'll be (relatively) easy pickings for glyph, height and stinger drain-enhanced Marro Stingers (for example).

If I traded off two squads of Stingers for DWK 9000 I would still come out 20 points ahead! However, with only one order marker on it, I would not fear losing even one squad, let alone two. Beyond that, you would have had to have spent one or two orders getting DWK 9000 from your start zone onto a spot from which it could threaten my units in the first place. Again, "moving the queen in the opening".

Two or three order markers on DWK 9000 is (almost always) extremely wasteful and risky (you may lose order markers if its destroyed before revealing them and then the rest of your units will miss turns), and one order marker on it won't scare a capable player with a competitive army. Hmmm... perhaps the only real competitive edge that DWK 9000 may give you is that it may make your opponent believe he's facing a dunce and that he will subsequently underestimate you to his demise. I would concede that this could happen! LOL. Again, have fun playing with it.

[Einar's puppy]

Sarpedon, you are forgetting that special attacks are really helpful for taking out units like death reavers. They won't scatter from this guy.

[Taeblewalker]

[quote=dok;815708]

Of course, you can achieve this same effect for roughly half the price with one of the cowboys, and you can get a lot more bang for your big-ticket explosive attack buck by spending another 45 and taking Zelrig. So don't read this as an endorsement of DW9k, per se.[/quote]


Excellently put!

[Toad Rocket]

Just to be clear, in my defense of DW9k I never tried to contend that he was a good choice for a tournament army. His weaknesses outweigh his advantages expecially in relation to his cost when put in light of the competitive circuits.
I was just trying to say I thought Sarpedon was somewhat overzealous in his post about how horrible 9k is on OM effiecency. I was just trying to argue that in certain aspects OM placement on 9k can be beneficial. Though he will never be considered a strong tournament character unless he gets some sort of bonding with a squad.
My comment that his special attack slightly offset his one turn OM marker usuage because it could get multiple opponents. Or at least threaten that he could get multiple targets thus forcing your opponent to adjust his figures accordingly. Remeber, I said SLIGHTLY offset.

[Sarpedon]

Hello, again, Toad Rocket.

When I discuss units, I look at them from a tournament player's point of view. At home, I regularly create scenarios (such as an abandoned house) in which the units are pre-selected (30 zombies attacking the house against any 500 point army trying to "hold the fort"). No unit is bad or unplayable in such cases. In fact, at home, I almost always create interesting scenarios that feature NON-tournament-worthy units.

However, aside from discussing how to best use the units, there really isn't much to talk about. If I were to discuss how best to use the zombies, it wouldn't take long and there would be no chance for discussion. The most interesting discussions, in my opinion, occur between people who disagree about the merits of something. Merit (power or value per point spent) has no meaning in casual play. It is purely a tournament consideration.

If you wish to write about how best to use a unit in casual play and nothing more, that's fine, but it won't generate much, if any, discussion and it would be better placed in one of the Books of Heroscape rather than in a thread of its own. The whole point of having threads is for people to participate, discuss and disagree, not to intellectually inbreed.

Is DWK 9000 playable casually? Absolutely. Just like ANY other unit. I agree 100% with you there. Is his special attack better than nothing? Yes, of course it's better than nothing. On both those fronts we agree entirely. Did I overstate his weaknesses in regards to a competitive setting? I do not think so and, apparently, neither do you. Agreeing is peaceful, but not much fun.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

To your first point, yes, IF your opponent is playing with the Roman Legionnaires (who need clustering for defensive bonuses), the Nakita Agents, the Elf Wizards, etc., then you will probably get a chance to use the explosive special attack at some point. Nevertheless, an opposing army comprised of A and A+ units (tournament-worthy), in the hands of a decent opponent, will rarely, if ever, give you a chance.

You're overstating things quite a bit to say that only A and A+ units are tournament worthy.

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

As you said, you could achieve this same effect with Shotgun Sullivan for much less money.

Yep. The only time I would really even consider the Deathwalker would be alongside Ornak at 600+ points, because you can activate DW9k for half of an OM.

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

The second point about "keeping an opponent guessing" by placing the x marker on DWK 9000 I don't really agree with. If I have a competitive army, I will still secure glyphs and still attack because the threat is far less than the potential benefit that I will gain. One order marker on DWK 9000 and then what? He'll be (relatively) easy pickings for glyph, height and stinger drain-enhanced Marro Stingers (for example).

I'm not sure you followed my point. My point here is that you can keep your opponent from clustering units because they don't want to get hit with exploding attacks. If your opponent is always careful to never put two figures adjacent to one another within 12 hexes of DW9k, this will restrict their figure placement considerably. That gives you a tactical advantage, even if DW9k remains unactivated the vast majority of the time.

My point on OM placement was just that you can't always put the "x" there, or your opponent will catch on to the bluff. You have to occasionally activate him if you want to keep your opponent from putting figures adjacent to one another.

This strategy is easier to use with Zelrig than DW9k, but DW9k can manage it.

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Beyond that, you would have had to have spent one or two orders getting DWK 9000 from your start zone onto a spot from which it could threaten my units in the first place. Again, "moving the queen in the opening".

On most maps, DW9k can hit the center of the battlefield on his first OM. I might spend one OM to put him on height, but that would be it as far as opening moves go.

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Two or three order markers on DWK 9000 is (almost always) extremely wasteful and risky (you may lose order markers if its destroyed before revealing them and then the rest of your units will miss turns)

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

and one order marker on it won't scare a capable player with a competitive army.

It depends what you mean by "scare". The point is to force them to keep their figures non-adjacent. If they're not "scared" and start clumping units on height or at choke points, then that one order marker you put on DW9k will be well spent, as he can hit 3+ figures with a fairly strong ranged special.

[Sarpedon]

Hello, dok

I didn't claim that only A and A+ units are tournament worthy. I only said that all A and A+ units are tournament-worthy. There are others (few in my opinon, admittedly) from the other categories that are viable in certain army builds. Besides, that wasn't my focus. I was discussing DWK 9000's merit relative to those units, not the merits (tournament-worthiness) of other non-elite units. I wanted to clear that up.

I agree that using Ornak makes DWK 9000 better, but still not good enough. After all, Ornak can only activate two Utgar Heroes on the first turn, leaving DWK 9000 as before for turns 2 and 3. To include Ornak, as you pointed out, we'd then be talking about 600+ point armies which are rarely allowed in tournaments today. It's a moot point.

Regarding DWK 9000's explosion attack, we must, I suppose, agree to disagree. If I have lots of ranged elite squads I will NOT fear the single order marker placed on DWK 9000. Why? As I said, I'm willing to sacrifice one or two units to reap far greater rewards. Consider also that its special explosion attack is only 3 dice. Moving it onto height (as you said) or securing the attack glyph will not improve this special explosion attack (height would only improve his defense by one).

One thing more: are we assuming it will always/probably roll 3 skulls? The expected result is 1.5 skulls. That means it is just as likely to roll one or no skulls (unlikely) as it is to roll 2 or 3 skulls (unlikely). Is that so scary? Not really. It's a risk I would consider acceptable, especially if my squads have secured a defense glyph and/or are being boosted by Raelin.

Its explosion attack has a 50% chance of being only zero or one skull. That's the nail in the coffin. The "great" explosion is often a letdown itself! It is difficult to make it happen if and when an opponent clusters units and, on top of that, it is very likely to do little or no damage to defensively enhanced units. Good discussion.