When rights are taken too far.

[mac122]

Originally Posted by delphic

Really, the best way to fight these fools is to beat them at their own game.

They announce where they will be and when to gain support right? So show up with more people and protest the protest. Drown them out. Show them that average Joe American won't stand for this kind of behavior, legal or not.

The amendment goes both ways.

Sign suggestions:

God hates Bigots.
Stop giving Jesus a bad name.
John Smith was a ----. "Get Creative"

The groups sounds similar to other "non-profit" groups like PETA and a dozen enviromental groups, in their tactics.

Cheers,

Delphic

I believe you are on the right track. But in the context of a funeral, I would recommend supporters fill the public areas near the site and stand silently in honor of the fallen soldier and out of respect for the family. WBC could still protest, but they would be pushed further away from the site. I believe this tactic was implemented or at least discussed in the St. Louis area a few years ago when WBC threatened to demonstrate at a funeral.

[delphic]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Personal foul! Cheap shot, 15 yard penalty for Unnecessary Metaphor, automatic first down.

Delphic, you are saying they are publicity hounds, which is true, but heaven knows there are publicity hounds with causes all over the political spectrum. Just because you agree with some and not others doesn't make it right to lump these a*hats in with the ones you don't like.

I don't see much different in comparing PETA to these folks.

Two years ago there was a young Canadian man murdered on a Grey Hound bus by a wack job with a Katana Sword. The Young Man was decapitated.

PETA within a week had posters up comparing this tragedy with the slaughter of cows. Made the family feel really special.

It isn't that I don't agree "which I don't", it is that the tactics are the same. Using tragedy to bring attention to your cause in an inapropriate way.

Cheers,

Delphic

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by mac122

But in the context of a funeral, I would recommend supporters fill the public areas near the site and stand silently in honor of the fallen soldier and out of respect for the family. WBC could still protest, but they would be pushed further away from the site. I believe this tactic was implemented or at least discussed in the St. Louis area a few years ago when WBC threatened to demonstrate at a funeral.

Now *that* is a good idea.

From the Wikipedia article about Matthew Shepard and how the counterprotesters dealt with the hateful bigots outside the courthouse:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Romaine Patterson, a friend of Shepard's, organized a group of individuals who assembled in a circle around an anti-gay group wearing white robes and gigantic wings (resembling angels) that blocked the protesters.

edit: In response to some private communication I've received, Delphic is entitled to compare Westboro Baptist Church to PETA and environmental groups if he wants, I am entitled to say that's an unfair comparison, but I'm not going to hijack the thread with that side conversation.

[Chardris1287]

The westoboro church is just insane. But what is really a tragedy is the child abuse they are spreading to their children. Teaching their children that people are nothing but ___s (censored for heroscapers) and evil, and deserving of hell just for not believe what they believe is absolutely terrible. I don't think the children even understand what they are protesting when their parents drag them out to funerals, hand them a sign, and give them a line to parrot back to people.

[delphic]

edit: In response to some private communication I've received, Delphic is entitled to compare Westboro Baptist Church to PETA and environmental groups if he wants, I am entitled to say that's an unfair comparison, but I'm not going to hijack the thread with that side conversation. - Dad_Scaper


So given the actions of PETA as describe here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...ta-mclean.html

What exactly is unfair in the comparison? The issue is bigger than one group going to extremes. It is another example of how militant protest groups operate and manipulate, only the focus changes group to group, not the tactics.

Obviously, I have hit a sore spot here. Perhaps you back PETA and don't like the comparison, however it is fair, on topic and correct.

You called me out brother.

Cheers,

Delphic

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by delphic

The groups sounds similar to other "non-profit" groups like PETA and a dozen enviromental groups, in their tactics.

Delphic I called you out for your broad comment about "PETA and a dozen other environmental groups." I did not call you out just for PETA. You are still called out and your agenda is there for all the readers to see.

For what it's worth I don't give two craps about PETA, but this is a thread about the Westboro Baptist Church and you tried to use it as a tool to smear "environmental groups" - not just PETA, but "environmental groups."

I was perfectly happy to let it go, but you are right, it's apparently a sore spot. Not *my* sore spot, but a sore spot nonetheless.

[BassistofDoom]

Originally Posted by Chardris1287

The westoboro church is just insane. But what is really a tragedy is the child abuse they are spreading to their children. Teaching their children that people are nothing but ___s (censored for heroscapers) and evil, and deserving of hell just for not believe what they believe is absolutely terrible. I don't think the children even understand what they are protesting when their parents drag them out to funerals, hand them a sign, and give them a line to parrot back to people.

Absolutely right. These kids are growing up surrounded by hatred for other people and are taught that God is a hateful being as well instead of a loving, caring one. It is terrible that they are witnessing all of this before they are even old enough to understand it and will have that in their heads as normal and right.

[delphic]

Dad_Scaper

You still have not answered my question as to why the comparison is unfair or false. I could post links to news stories about a plethera of militant envirnomental groups that have stooped just as low.

I am not anti-environementalist.
I am not anti-animal rights.

I am Anti-extremist.
I am Anti-propaganda.
I am Pro-Decency.
I am Pro-Free Speech.

So again, I don't understand the reason you felt you needed to call me out on a very supportable and related arguement.

I am agreeing that this church group is in the wrong, I am just pointing out that this kind of extreme act is perpetrated to bring attention to an issue and they are not the only protest group to do so.

Pointing out specific acts of these groups and holding them responsible is the only way to fight them.

I hope you understand my motivations a bit better. What exactly are your again?

Cheers,

Delphic

[Greyelephant]

Originally Posted by Bannister

Not as long as there really is a fire. You can get in trouble for falsely yelling fire in a public place.

Why would calling the funerals "federal business", mean that you would be unable to protest them? I would think calling them property of the government would give protestors more of a right to be there not less?

To be clear, I think everyone of these nut jobs are tools. But even tools get to voice their opinions.

Bannister

Given by what I seen in this thread http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=34871 it seems that in certain cases people can be removed from public places where ferderal employees are speaking. I guess that's what I'm basing my thoughts on. I know it's not apples to apples. I'm just frustrated and feel like justice wasn't properly served for these scum bags. I feel sorry for families who've had to endure seeing loved ones make the ultimate sacrifice, only to have these scum bags show up and make things worse for them. I just can't imagine how that would make me feel if I was in their shoes.

Originally Posted by Cavalier

Expressing deplorable viewpoints and attempting to incite a panic are 2 completely different things. It is honestly very important that we protect the right of unpopular speech as popular speech is rarely threatened. It is unpopular speech that can lead to social change and growth. For instance, civil rights was not a popular topic in the 60's. Many would have liked to quash it, but it was protected, even though a largely unpopular subject and it led to change.

One of my most beloved quotations on the subject is a line often misattributed to Volaire*: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

* Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.

For Clarity, let me state emphatically that I think WBC is a bunch of despicable nut jobs.

That was a nice history lesson. Thanks for that Cav, I never knew.

Originally Posted by delphic

Really, the best way to fight these fools is to beat them at their own game.

They announce where they will be and when to gain support right? So show up with more people and protest the protest. Drown them out. Show them that average Joe American won't stand for this kind of behavior, legal or not.

The amendment goes both ways.

Sign suggestions:

God hates Bigots.
Stop giving Jesus a bad name.
John Smith was a ----. "Get Creative"

The groups sounds similar to other "non-profit" groups like PETA and a dozen enviromental groups, in their tactics.

Cheers,

Delphic

I was listening to the radio today. A man called in saying that his nephew died in 2006 during a tour in Iraq. During the funeral this "church" showed up spewing their hate. However, a truck driver knew that they might show, so he had a professionally made banner placed on the trailer of his rig that displayed several Marines with their heads bowed. He parked the trailer directly in front of these clowns so that the family of the lost soldier wouldn't see them. Then on top of that, a group of bikers showed up, parked their bikes as close to the scum bags and revved up their motors every time one of the scum bags tried to yell something hateful.

He said that you wouldn't of even of known that there were people protesting. I thought it was very touching to hear of people going out of their way and spending their own money/time to fight these scum bags. God bless them.

[Greyelephant]

Originally Posted by delphic

Dad_Scaper

You still have not answered my question as to why the comparison is unfair or false. I could post links to news stories about a plethera of militant envirnomental groups that have stooped just as low.

I am not anti-environementalist.
I am not anti-animal rights.

I am Anti-extremist.
I am Anti-propaganda.
I am Pro-Decency.
I am Pro-Free Speech.

So again, I don't understand the reason you felt you needed to call me out on a very supportable and related arguement.

I am agreeing that this church group is in the wrong, I am just pointing out that this kind of extreme act is perpetrated to bring attention to an issue and they are not the only protest group to do so.

Pointing out specific acts of these groups and holding them responsible is the only way to fight them.

I hope you understand my motivations a bit better. What exactly are your again?

Cheers,

Delphic

I guess (If I could arbitrate for a moment) that the difference is these scum bags are doing it solely for monetary purposes. Trying to lure you into a law suit.

Environmentalists like PETA, have a reason beyond just themselves. More of a broad agenda, I guess?

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by delphic

What exactly is unfair in the comparison?

If PETA was like WBC, they would have showed up at McLean's funeral screaming about how McLean was a cannibal that deserved to be butchered. That's just a whole level beyond pure sensationalism in my mind. It indicates a mindset willing to violate one of the core concepts of human decency - respect for the dead and the grieving process of the survivors.

~Aldin, killing time

[delphic]

So here is a suggestion for dealing with this kind of extremist hate group.

The Canadian Criminal Code, seperates the rights of free expression and propogation of HATE.

Public incitement of hatred

"319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Wilful promotion of hatred

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction."

Delphic