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  #13  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 01:50 AM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Outside of the anguish these misguided, hateful people cause to grieving families, allegedly in the name of God, what breaks my heart is seeing the children that are being raised in this atmosphere. They have no real chance at anything resembling a normal life.


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  #14  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 02:09 AM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

God loves, does not hate. How many of the 7 deadly sins is this group guilty of yet they don't see how terrible they are? Ignorance is bliss I guess.

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  #15  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 11:23 AM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. ~ Chomsky

Bannister

That can only mean one thing. And I don't know what it is.
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  #16  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 11:34 AM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannister View Post
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. ~ Chomsky
True, true. That's why they had to win in court. Sometimes the wrong guy ends up winning in court, or having more money, or getting the girl, or winning the Super Bowl (not this year, but hey, it's happened), which is why...

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Don't let the a-holes of the world bring you down, friends.

That is all.

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  #17  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:07 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Cant I get in trouble for yelling FIRE, in a public place? Where does free speech begin and end? Where and why is/nt there a line drawn? Why cant military funerals be considered federal business? These people were property of the government when they were serving (alive), correct?

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  #18  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:10 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

"We are Anonymous.
We are legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Expect us.
Always."

-Anonymous


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  #19  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:14 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyelephant View Post
Cant I get in trouble for yelling FIRE, in a public place? Where does free speech begin and end? Where and why is/nt there a line drawn? Why cant military funerals be considered federal business? These people were property of the government when they were serving (alive), correct?
There are times when 'speech' alone can be dangerous or criminal.

Heck, just today there's a story in the paper about some PFC getting nailed for leaking documents to Wikileaks.

Other forms of "criminal" speech include various forms of fraud and theft, including, say, insider trading, or some theft by deception. Plus, as you say, speech that can cause physical injury, such as shouting "fire" in the crowded theater, might be criminal.

Historically, though, the exceptions to the rule of free speech (in a public place, don't forget, mustn't forget) are drawn narrowly.

I would have been surprised and deeply disappointed if this had gone the other way.

The fact is, in law as in all things, sometimes the a-holes win, and we as civilized human beings will be better off if we try not to keep score that way.

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; March 3rd, 2011 at 12:16 PM. Reason: inserting quote block, must stop leaving them out. Go get 'em, anonymous!
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  #20  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:17 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyelephant View Post
Cant I get in trouble for yelling FIRE, in a public place?
Not as long as there really is a fire. You can get in trouble for falsely yelling fire in a public place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyelephant
Where does free speech begin and end? Where and why is/nt there a line drawn? Why cant military funerals be considered federal business? These people were property of the government when they were serving (alive), correct?
Why would calling the funerals "federal business", mean that you would be unable to protest them? I would think calling them property of the government would give protestors more of a right to be there not less?

To be clear, I think everyone of these nut jobs are tools. But even tools get to voice their opinions.

Bannister

That can only mean one thing. And I don't know what it is.
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  #21  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyelephant View Post
Cant I get in trouble for yelling FIRE, in a public place? Where does free speech begin and end? Where and why is/nt there a line drawn? Why cant military funerals be considered federal business? These people were property of the government when they were serving (alive), correct?
Expressing deplorable viewpoints and attempting to incite a panic are 2 completely different things. It is honestly very important that we protect the right of unpopular speech as popular speech is rarely threatened. It is unpopular speech that can lead to social change and growth. For instance, civil rights was not a popular topic in the 60's. Many would have liked to quash it, but it was protected, even though a largely unpopular subject and it led to change.

Quote:
"Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a misquote that refers to Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919 and that is used to express the limits upon which free speech may be expressed under the terms of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.
Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute fliers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a "clear and present danger" to the government's recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:

The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout "Fire!". Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting "Fire!" when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which ruled that speech could only be banned when it was directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot), the test which remains until this day. Some now see the Schenck argument to be mistaken, contending that the pamphleteer's actions were more like yelling fire outside a building to prevent people from entering, rather than trying to encourage people to stampede out.

Despite Schenck being overturned, the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.
One of my most beloved quotations on the subject is a line often misattributed to Volaire*: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

* Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.

For Clarity, let me state emphatically that I think WBC is a bunch of despicable nut jobs.

Last edited by Cavalier; March 3rd, 2011 at 12:31 PM.
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  #22  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:32 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Really, the best way to fight these fools is to beat them at their own game.

They announce where they will be and when to gain support right? So show up with more people and protest the protest. Drown them out. Show them that average Joe American won't stand for this kind of behavior, legal or not.

The amendment goes both ways.

Sign suggestions:

God hates Bigots.
Stop giving Jesus a bad name.
John Smith was a ----. "Get Creative"

The groups sounds similar to other "non-profit" groups like PETA and a dozen enviromental groups, in their tactics.

Cheers,

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  #23  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:36 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannister View Post
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. ~ Chomsky
This is more of a moral debate than legal particularly when the organization is going against the good book they supposedly are supporting by their actions. Either way just because I believe they should have the right to freedom of expression that doesn't mean they aren't bastards for doing so.

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  #24  
Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:39 PM
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Re: When rights are taken too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delphic View Post
The groups sounds similar to other "non-profit" groups like PETA and a dozen enviromental groups, in their tactics.


Personal foul! Cheap shot, 15 yard penalty for Unnecessary Metaphor, automatic first down.

Delphic, you are saying they are publicity hounds, which is true, but heaven knows there are publicity hounds with causes all over the political spectrum. Just because you agree with some and not others doesn't make it right to lump these a*hats in with the ones you don't like.

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