Δ+ Unit Debate #2 - Kozuke vs. Ninjas

[kolakoski]

Well met!

The Kozuke Samurai and the Ninjas of the Northern Wind are two of my favorite squads in the game - and are both 95 points in Δ+ [100 and 110 in Classic, respectively].

As per Mega's Debate format, evaluate for the following:

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

[MegaSilver]

You really need to put in the modified point totals if you are going to continue to use my Unit Debates format.

EDIT: I see that you already did that. XD

You can add the poll from the advanced options near the bottom.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

You really need to put in the modified point totals if you are going to continue to use my Unit Debates format.

Modified point totals? "both 95 points in Δ+" covers it, doesn't it? What I do have to do is to remember to include the poll!

[DanieLoche]

Her... that's not the good card for the Ninjas... right?

I prefer the Samourais, because I'm very, very, very unlucky with my 20-sided die!

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by DanieLoche

[T]hat's not the good card for the Ninjas[,] right?

I prefer the Samurai, because I'm very, very, very unlucky with my 20-sided die!

No. It wasn't. Fixed. Thanks!

It's also unfortunate that Disappearing Ninja doesn't work against Special Attacks - but hope springs eternal when it comes to the Dark Ladies!

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

. . . if you are going to continue to use my Unit Debates format.

If I were going to copy your format that slavishly, I'd include:

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

Not that it's not worth taking - retroactively!

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

1) Kozuke. More attack, comparable defensive special (power-wise) and more speed when it matters. No disengage hurts in certain matchups, but isn't always a negative. NotNW have some situationally better matchups, but in general the Kozuke are superior.

2) Kozuke. Most armies can use an army card that can deliver a knock out punch. That's what the Kozuke are. You hold them back waiting for your moment and then unleash them for maximum devastation. They play well with others. Ninjas are a bit more subtle in that you want them to be a heavy hitter, but you also want to get your opponent attacking them and getting stymied by Vanish. Much harder to make that work.

3) Kozuke. This goes back to the matchup issue. If I'm facing an army with a bunch of normal ranged attackers and I don't have a defense booster then the Ninjas are the way to go. But as a general-purpose, plug and play solution it's Kozuke every time.

4) Kozuke. They get the first attack because they are situationally faster. They attack with more dice. When Ninjas Vanish they don't get a kill, but when Kozuke counterstrike, that there is a dead Ninja.

5) I'm not conversant enough with Delta+ pricing to create full builds, but Kozuke should benefit nicely from the Delta+ SotM Raelin's long range defense boost while supporting a ranged component (the Delta+ Harqs would be good here) that has some sort of screen (Dividers maybe?). The Ninjas are harder to place in a synergistic group. Mixing them with Phantom Knights and the Krav Maga or Nakita Agents could be fun.

6) Addressed this earlier. Kozuke are a hammer, waiting in reserve for their moment to unleash havoc. The Ninjas are an iron gauntlet in a silk glove, attempting to distract while working for a decisive blow.

7) Ninjas. But only because Ninjas are cooler when it comes to creeping around in the dark. I think the Kozuke and their dash and bash are actually probably a bit better suited.

~Aldin, whiling away a bit of time on a Friday afternoon

[orgsbane]

4. Head to head. I was with Aldin on this one, but when calculated, the Ninjas crush the Samurai. The Ninja's win 61% of the time. http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/...quest=findprob

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by orgsbane

4. Head to head. I was with Aldin on this one, but when calculated, the Ninjas crush the Samurai. The Ninja's win 61% of the time. http://math.lfc.edu/~yuen/heroscape/...quest=findprob

Look at the all important "Squ #2 moves first" to see the Kozuke winning about 60% of the time. That's the first strike they get for having greater effective speed.

~Aldin, swiftly

[orgsbane]

Oh, I see that now! I am happy. Everybody knows Samuria are better than Ninjas! (Ducks the punch that will soon be coming his way)

[shafizele]

*throws ninja star and hits orgsbane.

Anyways, you can obviously see I'm rooting for the ninjas. I think they are a much better clean-up squad, maybe not head to head against the samurai, but definitely better in most situations (like grouped squads or spread out heroes). Delta pricing isn't something I'm entirely familiar with but the ninja's in my house do fine at 110 points so they'd do much better at 95.

[orgsbane]

Ow. Stinkin Ninjas! anyway, delta pricing basically changed around the points. Over used squads (like the 4th Line) become overpriced, and expensive, less used units become cheaper. It's pretty cool. http://www.heroscapers.com/community...60#post1777360