Orlando

[All Your Pie]

I don't actually find interpreting a person's level of anger to be a particularly good judge as to whether they're right or wrong. "Harsh words" as you put it and well-reasoned arguments are not immediately contradictory. Often that whole idea is merely another tool of oppression, as people who are negatively impacted by a system are more likely to be angered by it, but that's sort of a digression.

As far as sources are concerned, you admitted that the ACP is not a particularly strong one and I'm prepared to let the matter lie there. I suppose I am just confused as to what exactly you are trying to call out or correct here that is so heinous you cannot bring yourself to stand by and watch it happen.

[Elven Lord]

Originally Posted by All Your Pie

I don't actually find interpreting a person's level of anger to be a particularly good judge as to whether they're right or wrong. "Harsh words" as you put it and well-reasoned arguments are not immediately contradictory. Often that whole idea is merely another tool of oppression, as people who are negatively impacted by a system are more likely to be angered by it, but that's sort of a digression.

As far as sources are concerned, you admitted that the ACP is not a particularly strong one and I'm prepared to let the matter lie there. I suppose I am just confused as to what exactly you are trying to call out or correct here that is so heinous you cannot bring yourself to stand by and watch it happen.

Long day. I'm done here.

Edit: It was your last couple of sentences I took issue with. You basically told me that you had no interest in hearing what other people have to say, which is fine. Then you started using flowery language like "crusade," which implies an insult. If you would really like to debate what the Crusades were/meant/were for, I would be happy to carry on such a discussion in pm's. I hold a degree in history and I am studious where my beliefs are concerned. I'd like to hear what you have to say, and I'm sure we can both learn a lot.

[Dad_Scaper]

The grieving country generally, and the grieving LGBT community particularly, does not need to be reminded at this moment in time that you think the victims of this massacre were living sinful lives. Ok? Regardless of your distinction between the "sin" and the "sinner." Because, remember, from the perspective of the sinner, the sin is not a sin and is inseparable from him or herself.

So judging one - the sin - is judging the other: the sinner. From their perspective. Your response that it's not how *you* feel, separating sin from sinner, doesn't change the fact that you have assessed one of their immutable (from their perspective) features and pronounced that they are damned to hell for having it. They are unworthy, ungodly, unless they change to conform with *your*, not their, idea of a better way to live.

Ok? That's the shorthand version of a much more lengthy discussion I've had *elsewhere* on this site, in more suitable contexts.

Let's just say that we can all take it on "faith" that people who believe such as you disapprove of people - like the victims of the massacre - living their lives as they see fit, without harming anybody, but finding romance in homosexual, rather than heterosexual, relationships. There is no reason to say it here, just as there is no reason for an astronomer to hop in here and tell us about his opinion about why Pluto shouldn't be a planet. It's not relevant or helpful.

The manner in which you're defending yourself is, regardless, ridiculous. You cited a hate group's literature and then, confronted with that fact, uncorked this little passage:

Originally Posted by Elven Lord

I would like to point out that two of your three sources refer to one of your sources when identifying ACP as a hate group. SPLC designates it a hate group, but I don't think the SPLC is a reliable source for the simple reason that the group actively seeks to identify "hate groups."

You complain that the SPLC shouldn't be cited because identifying "hate groups" is part of what they do. Well, when I try to decide if there is radon in my basement, I ask a radon finder (or radon finding tool). I don't ask the mailman. As to the SPLC's criteria, they are here:

Originally Posted by SPLC's own definition

All hate groups have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics.

So, now you know. Read more about their work here. Being labeled a "hate group" by the SPLC is nothing to take lightly.

All of which is only intended to demonstrate that this argument will get you nowhere. I, for one, do not expect that further explanations of the advantage of accepting Jesus in your heart will be helpful in this thread. Live how you want, proselytize if you must, but just see how incredibly tone deaf it is to do so here. Ok?

I'm not looking for an apology or an explanation. At least, not in the thread. I just want it to stop. If you feel like you must reply to me, do so in a PM, though I'm not asking you to do so. I'm just asking you to stop posting here, if you cannot do so without keeping your judgment to yourself.

[Aldin]

It really is unfortunate. Frankly, I'm disappointed with all the political talk in this thread, not just the most recent posts by Elven Lord and marrowick. But as a Christian I do find those particularly disappointing.

People died. Sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, fathers and mothers. Death is our enemy (1 Cor 15:26), people are not. These are our neighbors, whom we are to love and uphold - as are the grieving loved ones they left behind (Mark 12:31). There may be a time to express a concern for sin in someone else's life, though the burden of taking care of your own sin first is a heavy one (Matt 7:3-5). This is not that time. This is a time to mourn (Ecc. 3:1-8).

~Aldin, choosing love

[marrowick]

Originally Posted by Aldin

It really is unfortunate. Frankly, I'm disappointed with all the political talk in this thread, not just the most recent posts by Elven Lord and marrowick. But as a Christian I do find those particularly disappointing.

People died. Sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, fathers and mothers. Death is our enemy (1 Cor 15:26), people are not. These are our neighbors, whom we are to love and uphold - as are the grieving loved ones they left behind (Mark 12:31). There may be a time to express a concern for sin in someone else's life, though the burden of taking care of your own sin first is a heavy one (Matt 7:3-5). This is not that time. This is a time to mourn (Ecc. 3:1-8).

~Aldin, choosing love

Hmm, I'm afraid there was a mistake on my end, it appears that I din't spread my condolences in my first post. I'm sorry if my first post didn't express that for I agree with Aldin and was simply trying to express love to ALL, the victims, their families, and the shooter (not to say I love what he did, but that he needs our help). They all need our love right now for us to help them. As you're saying Aldin, love was my only intention.

[Elven Lord]

I am sorry also. As I mentioned in my first post, my original was lost when the session failed. I had included condolences in it, but I'm beginning to think the session failure was an opportunity for me to include condolences and condolences only. Instead I did not include them at all.

It is hard being Christian in a post-Christian country, but that is no excuse for the poorly expressed (and located) notions that I brought here.

The condolences I had offered in the original was as follows:

My prayers go out to the families of the victims, and to the victims themselves. I pray that God, whose plan and mercy are known only to him, welcomes them into the heavenly place he has set aside for them.

I also expressed that I am angered that anyone should have trouble obtaining life-saving resources on account of identifying differently than they are expected to.

~EL who has not stopped praying since the Orlando shooting.

[wriggz]

Thank heavens for small miracles, and I mean that with no Sarcasm or condensation, but in full honesty.

It is the small miracles of apologies, understanding, kindness and forgiveness that will move us forward. No law of the land can truly force us to be better people, but when we open our minds (and hearts) to each other the true goodness of humanity is revealed. Let us take that spirit forward, for I'm sure that is what the victims would want.

[Tornado]

Aldin: Were those bible quotes from memory?

I had a great question for you recently and it has evaporated from my short term memory.
I look forward to our next discussion.


"What we need now, is love sweet love."

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Aldin: Were those bible quotes from memory?

More or less. I remember the words, but not where they are so I toss 'em in google and it pulls up the reference for me to add.

~Aldin, old dude

[Tornado]

Nice.

Tornado ~ older dude?

[chas]

Oddly and sadly, partisan politicians have tried to frame the Orlando discussion around whether we should treat this awful event as an issue centering around:

A) Gender hate crimes

B) Terrorism, with a possible Moslem connection

C) Gun control

How goofy! My answer is:

D) All of the above

[vegietarian18]

Originally Posted by chas

Oddly and sadly, partisan politicians have tried to frame the Orlando discussion around whether we should treat this awful event as an issue centering around:

A) Gender hate crimes

B) Terrorism, with a possible Moslem connection

C) Gun control

How goofy! My answer is:

D) All of the above

I agree, but the amount of people who use A and C to deny B is an actual problem worth discussing