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#757
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
Congrats to Typhon on WoS map #22, Odin Wept!
I believe the beginning of this thread and the post in the display thread are correctly updated. Let me know if I missed anything. |
#758
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
Spaced my mind for a second, but I have added Pigeonhole to the timer.
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#759
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
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#760
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
Fulcrum by Dignan
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I believe that the difference in power level between bonding melee and non-bonding melee is exacerbated by Fulcrum (if you care, see spoiler at the end for some of my thoughts on map design accommodating melee). As one specific example – it doesn’t seem fair to say that Fulcrum is balanced for melee if that opinion is based on playing Knights with Gilbert strictly because of how powerful an ability dispatch is on a map like Fulcrum. Spashing units into water is so much more viable when you can do it with a dispatch roll, and then move units onto high ground immediately after. Units like Heavies, and Grimnak particularly, are well equipped to punch through screens a player may lay through the middle of the map. As an important side note, I am NOT saying these units are easy to play on fulcrum, just that they by nature open up more possibilities than are available for other melee units – making them more viable to play on the map. From my experience and seemingly from the experiences of others, non-bonding melee just struggles too much to compete even against mid-tier ranged units due to the level three 3-hex piece, center design, and water placement (this of course depends on army composition, etc.). Overall, I find myself disagreeing with the sentiment that Fulcrum promotes the use of diverse armies. I do agree strongly, however, with the argument that Fulcrum demands that players approach the game in a different way than they would on most other maps. It accomplishes that purpose very well, and therefore deserves continued recognition and use by the community. Yet, unfortunately, I do not believe that recognition should be in WoS. I support the nomination to remove Fulcrum from the WoS.
Spoiler Alert!
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#761
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
Fulcrum by
@Dignan
A lot has already been said about Fulcrum's gameplay on both sides of the discussion, so I won't beat that horse any further. But I enjoyed having the chance to take a close look at it with the standards of WoS in mind. I did go into my recent games on it expecting to find that it had fallen out of favor with me as I played matchups into dragons and Raelin/range. Instead, I found that I really enjoyed those games and the strategies that I used to approach them. I don't think Fulcrum is a perfect map. I also don't know that a "perfect" map exists, because people can always argue for one more slight change to improve it. (OEAO probably disagrees but I haven't played Odin Wept yet.) I think, when evaluating maps to be the best-of-the-best maps for WoS, there is a definite balance to finding maps that, despite any flaws they might have, are exemplary in the gameplay they provide. I do think that Fulcrum is one of those exemplary maps. I could see an updated version replacing it, but I think it reaches the level that WoS maps should hold as the best-of-the-best. If I said no to keeping it, I feel like I would have a hard time saying yes to a host of other deserving maps. I vote YES to keep Fulcrum. Monthly Utah Tournaments in SLC!!
Maps | Customs | Battle Reports 10 Points Under Videos "I'll save myself some time and say I pretty much 100% agree with Bigga" ~Flash_19 Last edited by BiggaBullfrog; March 27th, 2024 at 10:11 PM. Reason: Flash please don't make me change my signature. |
#762
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
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#763
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
Man, so it does come down to me. Our first map to pass 6 votes cast, and it is going to go all the way to 8.
I'll start by quoting myself from 2.5 years ago: Quote:
I was actually reflecting on that Tiamat Incendiborgs game recently (what I didn't mention in my earlier review is that I was playing Cathar Spearmen). Just last week I was playing Cathars again on Fulcrum (this time into Q10 and dividers) and it really was a similarly frustrating experience - more on that later. Similarly to how Flash approached his review, I wanted to understand the gulf of opinion on Fulcrum. Obviously as a panel of judges we don't all see things eye to eye, from our individual evaluations of a map to our boundaries of what exactly a WoS map is. As an example, I personally prefer Nightfall to a few maps we have in WoS, even maps I think are well-deserving of their WoS status! This excerpt from dok's most recent review struck me as the most in-depth defense of the gameplay of Fulcrum. Quote:
But I think the map suffers (and leads to major negative play experiences) in one specific (but by no means rare) subset of this melee/range matchup category. I find taking non-knights melee into podded range/screen armies (add Raelin to taste) to be a matchup that is slanted significantly towards the range player. To quote dok again, this time from a Codex article: Quote:
Even bringing a ranged component to your melee army (say, MBS with your Romans) isn't necessarily a big help: The jungle helps Q10 weather the few 4v8s while he throws however many 2v5s it takes to punch through MBS' 3 life (or, if you anticipate it, you shift Q10 forward by 1 space so he can throw 4v5s or 2v4s). Then it's back to worry-free pod play while your opponent has no recourse but to single-file into their pointless screen attacks. Or if your "ranged" component is Cathar then it's really game over, the best you can do is low ground 3v9s (or 3v8s into the aforementioned Incendiborgs). I do think I'd feel differently if the melee player had more options into a pod: a wider approach path, an alternate approach route that required more careful screening by the range player, or a glyph spot where a TD could put Wannok to provide some external pressure. But as-is, the frustration factor of the one-dimensional games of playing melee into podded range lead me to vote NO on Fulcrum this time around. |
#764
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
So with 5 "Yes" votes and 2 "No" votes, Superfrog's vote will determine whether Fulcrum stays in or not, correct?
Edit: Posted this like seconds after Superfrog's deciding vote. I suppose Fulcrum's out, then. Kind of a shame, personally speaking, since I really liked the map, but I understand why it's controversial. The user formerly known as Bloody the Marro Stinger! |
#765
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
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#766
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
It's a dark day for map-making everywhere...
Seriously, I'm glad to see the close attention paid to these votes and for the honest willingness among judges to vote carefully and without following trends or the opinions of others. I'm sad to see Fulcrum fall out of the WoS, but I'm encouraged by the care and honesty that is clearly taken by the WoS judges. No one can say that this set of maps it not carefully judged and curated for the benefit of all Scapers. This group makes tough calls. Clearly. New? Read this. | The INDEX 2.0 | Mmirg's Maps Magnify Your Scape: BoV | SoV | C3V (Playtest!) | C3G The Dice Tower Con w/ Scape! |
#767
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
This was very interesting to observe. Thank you to everyone who put in the time to write a review.
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#768
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
I'm glad Fulcrum was removed. Imo it hasn't aged well as our scene has continued to become more and more competitive and find more and more ways to abuse map features to their fullest.
Sir Heroscape's Content
Customs, Maps, Battle Reports YouTube Channel, Trade List, 'Scaper of the Month, Burnout Format Tourney Record: 309 - 141 Online Record: 19 - 22 |
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