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Old July 27th, 2009, 09:26 AM
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Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD 2009

When:
Date: October 17th, 2009
Time: Registration begins 10:00AM, Round 1 begins @ 11:00AM

Where:

Armada Games
10910 N. 56th Street
Tampa, FL 33617

Tournament Structure:
4 Swiss Rounds followed by semi-final and final
Ranking by Wins and SOS
Tiebreakers by ALS (whole-card, no fractional)
During Semi-Final - remaining players play a 5th swiss round

SOS Notes:
+1 SOS if no A+ units in army
+1 SOS if no more than 3 identical common units appear in army

The A+ Units:
• Major Q9
• Raelin I (RoTV)
• Deathreavers
• 4th Massachusetts Line
• Marro Stingers
• Sir Gilbert

If any Wave 9 units are placed into the A+ category by the Heroscapers community prior to October 1st 2009, they will count as A+ for SOS bonuses.

Glyphs to be used for random glyphs:
• Glyph of Wannok (Wound)
• Glyph of Gerda (Defense +1)
• Glyph of Dagmar (+8 Initiative)
• Glyph of Valda (Move +2)
• Glyph of Ulanlva (Unique Attack +1)
• Glyph of Kelda (Healer)

Armies:
500 point armies (No Marvel)
Reinforcements to Armies (+75 points) for Semi-Final & Final
Armies cannot exceed 24 hexes (including reinforcements)
Wave 9 allowed
See Post #2 for more information on Reinforcements



The Maps:(Post #2 below has a listing of all the maps voted on, so you can see quick pictures of the maps chosen among them)

Tournament Schedule:
(4 Swiss Rounds+Finals)

09:30 AM -- Map building begins
10:00 AM -- Registration begins
10:45 AM -- Registration ends
11:00 AM -- Round 1 Begins (50 minutes)
12:00 PM -- Round 2 Begins (50 minutes)
01:00 PM -- Lunch break until 01:50 PM
02:00 PM -- Round 3 Begins (50 minutes)
03:00 PM -- Round 4 Begins (50 minutes)
04:00 PM -- Semi-Final Begins (50 minutes) - top 4 players
-------------- Remaining players compete in a 5th swiss round during semi-final
05:00 PM -- Final Begins (50 minutes) - top 2 players
06:00 PM -- Prizes, Dinner, Cleanup, Casual Play



Prizes:
  • $25.00 Gift Certificate from House Mouse Games
  • $100.00 in Gift Certificates from wargamersheadquarters.com ($50/$25/$25)
  • All players must bring one Heroscape-related item as a prize (this is your entry fee into the tournament). This can be a regular Heroscape product or something useful with heroscape (suggestions and past prizes have included dice towers, lexan mats, gift certificates to online gaming retailers, dice bags for holding dice/glyphs/markers, custom figs and custom terrain).
  • Prizes are being arranged to be sent from WotC via Heroscapers.com (as of 10/6/09)!
Attendees Confirmed:
Himsati - Tournament Organizer
Sup3rS0n1c
Torog
Zealot
ellak96
Syvaris
RennixTheThf
Star Wolf
nicktheant
SmoKingToad
rudyvalentine (and wife)
Mr Migraine (plus 3)
randomskyfears (and girlfriend)
BurnyFlame (plus brother)
Boondocksaint (plus fiancee)
karl with a k (we'll drag you there)

and Necroblade (in spirit at least...)

Last edited by himsati; October 7th, 2009 at 08:37 AM.
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  #2  
Old July 27th, 2009, 09:49 AM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

This post lists the couple of main topics that need to be discussed
1) Location
2) Maps to Use
3) Misc. (Reinforcemnts, Whole Card ALS, etc.)

LOCATION ISSUES:
There is an issue over the location of the tournament. The higher our numbers the better the prizes support for NHSD (which means we really need to hold one tournament on October 17th at one location if we want it for an "official" NHSD).

So below are the pros and cons. I need to know your preference if you have one and if one of the locations makes it impossible for you to attend.

Cool Stuff Games:
Pros:
Centrally located in the state, has the space, has side-items to entertain for those not playing in semi-final or final (video games, movies) and sells soda and snacks.
Cons:
Doesn't have the map-building materials on-hand, video games and movies might prove a distraction, doesn't regularly run HS at the store.
Questions:
Can any setup be performed the night before?

Armada Games:
Pros:
Has the space, regularly holds HS game days/nights, has the materials to build at least half of the needed maps to run the tournament so setup could begin the night before by Torog and Zealot.
Cons:
Distance - this is a longer drive for anyone on the East Coast of up to 1.5 hours extra.
Questions:
Do they have available snacks, any restrictions of any kind?

We are a big state and the discussions of having Florida Frenzy x.0 move around the state as well as having separate North / South tourneys (the gang in South Florida holds a tournament after NHSD but that doesn't garner them prize support from WoTC) might be time to start up again once we get through this year's NHSD.

My last note on this: We've always had trouble with getting people and materials together to build a lot of maps in the last year with Necro leaving to northern pastures... So a major need is to either have materials available from the store or to make sure people coming have materials and can get to the store to build maps in time before round 1 begins. Please consider this when discussing as it is a hurdle for us.

MAPS:
They've got some great maps for GenCon and I know most of you are probably not going, so I'd like to look at the GenCon maps to make our selections from. I'd like us to pick 5 maps so that if we have 3 - 4 of each map we can host easily 30 to 40 players:

Please pick 6 maps and then from all the picks we'll take the 5 that were selected the most.


Highways and Dieways download page


Fire Isles download page


Sidewinder download page


Ticalla Sunrise download page


Derelict download page


Just Passing Through download page


Invasion download page


Common Ground download page


Slash and Burn download page


Fossil download page


Sentinel download page

MISC:

ALS Change from Fractional to Whole-Card
1) ALS is only used as a Tie-Breaker when Wins/SOS are identical
2) We have only needed to use ALS to break a tie once in 2 years and that was for 13th and 14th place...
3) Fractional Scoring has been difficult without a chart or calculator and has always taken upwards of 5 - 10 minutes extra for people to do (one of the factors that slows us down greatly at tournaments)
4) Hasbro uses whole card scoring at GenCon, which is the precursor and sets the tone for NHSD, unit rankings, etc.

Unless I hear a big grumble from the community I think we'll see a much smoother tournament with simply using whole card scoring since it has so little impact on the players' rankings in the last two years. So if you hate it let me know, if you love it let me know, if you don't care... don't let me know.

Q: What is ALS?
A: ALS is Absolute Losing Score. If you lose the match, you count up the points from all your opponent's cards that you destroyed. So if your opponent has Jotun and you destroy him, 225 points are added to your ALS for that match.

Q: What is Whole Card Scoring?
A: Whole-Card scoring means you ignore any cards that are not completely destroyed (you must destroy all 3 Krav Maga Agents to get the 100 ALS points, you must completely destroy Kaemon Awa to get the 120 ALS points). Only killing some of the squad or partially wounding the hero means you don't get the points for the card.

Q: If my Airborne Elite or Rechets of Bogdan dont' make it onto the board, do they count as destroyed for ALS?

A: If you win the match your opponent doesn't get the points for them since you didn't need to even use them. If you lose the match the winner automatically gets 500 (575 for semi-final and final) points regardless of what you put on the board or not.

Q: If I destroy my opponents entire army do I list ALS?
A: No - the scoring system automatically gives you a 500 ALS for having destroyed his entire army (575 for semi-final and final) regardless of the actual number of points he has in his army.

Q: If my army is less than 500 points and my opponent destroys my entire army, how many kill points does he get?
A: 500, that's the allowable point total and how Hasbro totals it. But again, ALS really only matters to the loser of the match.

Reinforcements (the twist)
We are going to add in reinforcement this year like they are doing for the GenCon Championship. When you list your army you will list the 500 points that make up your army and then you will list the 75 points that make up your reinforcements (and you don't have to tell anyone else). During the Semi-final (5th swiss for remaining players) you get to break out the additional 75 points.

Q: What if my base army is 495 points? Can I have 80 points of reinforcements? If base is 450 can I have 125 points of reinforcements?
A: Yes - Your base army cannot exceed 500 points and with reinforcements it cannot exceed 575 points. And you cannot exceed 24 hexes worth of figures to meet start zones no matter what.

Q: Do I have to announce my entire army
A: You must list your base army on your tournament sheet and a separate card will be given to you to put your reinforcements on.

Q: Can I swap figures between my base army and reinforcements between tournament rounds?
A: No - the reinforcments are added to your base army during the Semi-Final (5th Swiss for remaining players) and Final Rounds.

Number of Matches?
You'll note we are doing both swiss rounds and a semi-final and final. GenCon (which is the biggest of the tourneys each year) only does this for the Championship and does it over two days. For us to do this timely and allow travel time for our competitors we are doing 4 swiss and the 5th swiss will be for remaining players during the semi-final to determine final placement for prize selection.

4 Swiss rounds is more than enough to determine semi-finalists. Assuming we have upwards of 40 players we will have the following undefeated numbers at the end of each round:
End of Round 1 = 20 undefeated players
End of Round 2 = 10 undefeated players
End of Round 3 = 05 undefeated players
End of Round 4 = 02 - 03 undefeated players

Last edited by himsati; July 27th, 2009 at 10:44 AM.
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  #3  
Old July 27th, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

This looks great, himsati. I'll see if I can make it up.

One note on ALS, I'm not positive (I can check if you like), but I think that at our last tourney Blue Dane and I tied for 4th place (in both Wins and SOS), with about 30-50 points being the difference between him advancing to the semi-finals and me being knocked out of contention.

Nonetheless, I concur that partial points are a pain and that Hasbro, Gencon, and many major tourneys have stick with whole card scoring. Here is ollie's work on different tourneys and their structures, fwiw.

I think the changes you are making are excellent. Again, I hope I can make this work; we'll see...
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Old July 27th, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

Location:
I can do either as long as we have the available time for setup and the materials between the store and players...

Himsati's Map Votes:
Sentinel
Slash and Burn
Just Passing Thru
Derelict
Fire Isles
Sidewinder

I feel that looking at this combination of maps doesn't force us to rely heavily on a specific expansion set to where we need 10 copies of an expansion no one has to make the maps.

Thoughts on Misc:
Obviously you know my thoughts already since I created the thread on this. Most of this is to try and match up with what WoTC does for their official tourneys for the purposes of time, ease of play for participants, prize support (just in case), etc.
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Old July 27th, 2009, 10:50 AM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
Nonetheless, I concur that partial points are a pain and that Hasbro, Gencon, and many major tourneys have stick with whole card scoring. Here is ollie's work on different tourneys and their structures, fwiw
I've seen Ollie's work and actually used it to do final summaries against several other threads concerning the tournament scoring, what they are doing at GenCon, etc. And even as you noted, when you had to use ALS its not like you managed to tie in ALS as well. It seems pretty rare that even with whole cards that a full tie in Wins, SoS and ALS all occur at the end of a particular match.
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Old July 27th, 2009, 11:19 AM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

I knew you had seen ollie's work; I thought perhaps some of the other members might not have. And, yes, I have never seen a tie in all three categories.

I had never used partial scoring until we had a tourney here and it was just kind of assumed to be the tourney standard. Now that I see that it isn't actually the standard, I have to admit that I am considering going back to whole card scoring.

I love the idea of incorporating the GenCon maps and reinforcements model. Very fun choices.
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  #7  
Old July 27th, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

Looks great, waiting to hear about location though

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Old July 27th, 2009, 12:52 PM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

Heh, others come to the site to procrastinate, but I produce "work". I'll pass that along to my boss.

I wanted to throw the main argument for fractional scoring in for consideration: I agree that it does not make a big difference for tournament standings, however it does make a big difference when deciding games that have gone to time. Fractional scoring advocates (of which I am one) claim that it gives both a more accurate estimate of which player would go on to win and does less to distort the game prior to time being called (in terms of making moves you might not otherwise have done if you were playing as if the game was to be completed). Your arguments of convenience and officialness may well still trump these, I just wanted to be sure you had the most powerful reasons for fractional scoring in mind when rejecting it.

And while I'm gatecrashing anyway, is there any interest in setting up a Florida NERV region? (See the link in my signature for more details.)

Last edited by ollie; July 27th, 2009 at 12:57 PM.
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Old July 27th, 2009, 05:02 PM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

I think the fact that Cool Stuff Games is a HeroScapers site sponsor is an additional "plus," along with having tons of HeroScape in stock. They also seem willing to host regular game nights if anyone in the area wanted that. So they get my vote for the National HeroScape Day, while we could do Tampa for other competitions, like FF 3.5.

On the tournament structure:
-If you want to do reinforcements, the point value should be lower, and not start at 500. Perhaps we can have 425 armies, and then 75 points of reinforcements?
-I like whole card scoring. However, your example of the Airborne Elite is unclear. What happens if "time" is called, and they have not dropped?
-That brings me to how to call time. I have always had a big problem with stopping in the middle of the round. I say that 5 minutes before the end of the round, we simply say "last round" and play a complete round from there.

-For Strength of Schedule (SoS) boosts, how about:
(+2) if no Marvel (but allow Marvel)
(+1) if no more than 3 identical common squads
(-1) Q9
(-1) Raelin (RotV)
(-1) each squad of the A+ commons after the first squad
The last part means one squad of 4th Mass takes no penalty, but 4 squads get (-3)

Next, I like the glyph suggestions, but how can we play the Kelda (Healer) one unless it is face up? We could play them face up to start (that works for me).

I have always hated the 24 hex limit (not that I ever exceed it), so I would prefer to play no limit and that the player must add hexes to the back of the start zone to accommodate all their figures.

Lastly, I'll have to think about the maps, but I prefer to have at least one designed by one of the attendees. And I really don't know if we'll be getting more than 30 people -- I expect there to be around 24. You can put me down as being one of those 24.

-----
Edit: I see nothing wrong with having a Florida rating system like the NERV, but 1) we need a good name and 2) we need to have more tournaments.
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Old July 27th, 2009, 05:45 PM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

Hello Florida Scapers,

Location:
I would like to cast my vote for Armada Games as our location this year for a several reasons. The number 1 reason for me is their "opened" stock of Heroscape which we would be allowed to use for set up. Armada Games has somewhere around 8+ ROTV master sets as well as numerous RTTFF and VW expansion sets that we would be able to use to supply our terrain need for the tournament. I've worked the Heroscape display table for them before at conventions and I didn't have to use ANY of my own collection to build some large show maps to teach people on. This is my single biggest reason for pushing Armada since it would allow Rennix, Torog, and Myself to set up ALL the maps for this year's tournament the night before thereby expediting the registration process the next day.

My second reason for supporting Armada for the location this year is the table size. I have no doubts about the number of tables available to us at Cool Stuff games but their tables look roughly the same size as the ones at Sci-Fi games which always felt a little cramped to me. I will have to get the exact measurements from the guys at Armada but they have 6 custom built tables each of which can hold up to 3 large Heroscape boards with room for cards and figures to spare. These 6 custom tables are in addition to their numerous regular size tables like the ones at Cool Stuff.

My third reason for wanting to hold the tournament at Armada is the Heroscape and other gaming products they have in stock. Armada has 4 full sets of both Wave 1 and Wave 9, numerous random boosters from Wave 7 and 8, Castle sets, Master sets, Forgotten Forrest, as well as Orms Return.
The "other" gaming products I was referring to is their "in store" demo games. Armada has a bookshelf, filled with board games, card games, and miniature games that are free use inside the store. So anyone waiting around for the tournament to start, end, or isn't participating but wants to have some fun trying new games for free would have multiple choices available to them.

My last reason for wanting to hold the tournament at Armada is the store's hours of operation. Officially, Armada games opens at Noon and closes at Midnight; HOWEVER, the guys at Armada have told me repeatedly that they would be willing to open earlier for special events (we'd pretty much have dibs on the whole store that day, reserved for tournament, etc...) in addition to the fact that they usually stay open well after 1 in the morning on Saturday Night which would give people LOTS of time for casual play after the tournament, Heroscape, or otherwise (demo games I mentioned).

Oy, that was a long post. Definitely put me on the list for participating in this year's tournament. (I have to try to keep my title ) and I will post my choices/input on the maps, glyphs, etc... in a later post.

One final note, I definitely like the 500pt with 75pt reinforcement idea simply because 500pts is a solid army build (very common) and the reinforcements will only even matter during the semi-final and final rounds so the first 4 Swiss rounds will be completely unaffected. (it won't slow us down any until the last rounds anyway).

Sincerely,
~Zealot

---- Let's all be honest here ----
---- This is what you thought of when you saw my name wasn't it?
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Old July 27th, 2009, 05:52 PM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

Great points Zealot, I vote Tampa too

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Old July 27th, 2009, 06:02 PM
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Re: Florida Frenzy 3.0 - NHSD

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
And while I'm gatecrashing anyway, is there any interest in setting up a Florida NERV region? (See the link in my signature for more details.)

YES, THERE IS.




As location choice goes, I would immediately say Cool Stuff Games. However, that does seem a bit selfish since the main reason is that it will shave 3 hours off of my total driving time. I'll think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnyFlame View Post
Edit: I see nothing wrong with having a Florida rating system like the NERV, but 1) we need a good name and 2) we need to have more tournaments.
I'm pretty sure ollie was talking about making a Florida Region in the NERV system. I think Ohio has done the same thing. It makes a Florida leaderboard in addition to adding our scores to the national board. It's not a different rating system.

Last edited by Mr Migraine; July 27th, 2009 at 06:10 PM.
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