The Book of Tor-Kul-Na

[underling]

Originally Posted by Nooblar

That would work if move was a radius. Instead, it's "total distance moved" not "net displacement." So moving a figure back and forth on two adjacent hexes won't grant you infinite move.

That's correct, it wouldn't. A figure would be limited by it's movement allowance.
What they have said is that TKN may not stomp any figure on a hex that it can't move to. So TKN's movement rate is, in effect, the stomp attack "radius." And in TKN's case, that special stomp attack radius is 6 hexes.

Originally Posted by Nooblar

bk13, you make a great point about disengagement and precedent. I'm pretty sure this was an oversight and not intentional. It will be interesting to see if they change TKN's card to rectify this.

I don't know what the designers had in mind with this ability. And it's not my job as a player to try to figure out a designer's intent. What I do know is that the card's text does seem to be a bit vague. Nowhere on the card does it say that a stomp attack takes any movement points to make. However it does seem to imply that a stomp takes no MPs to perform (as there is a break in TKN's normal movement while the stomp is resolved), and TKN may resume moving after the stomp attack is made.
I don't really care which way the ability is supposed to work, as it's cool either way. But what I do know is that there's enough ambiguity in the description that it wouldn't hurt getting a ruling from Hasbro.

As for the disengagement issue, you could make an arguement either way. On the one hand, the one hex move after a successful stomp attack is not part of TKN's normal movement, and so it's not counted as a disengagement. On the other hand, you could argue that a disengagement attack is always allowed if a model is disengaged from, regardless of whether it's part of a normal move or not.
Kevin

[Nooblar]

Yeah, if your philosophy is "Do what the card says, not what it doesn't say," then TKN has no reason to take disengagement for this special ability, whereas other cards' special abilities specifically mention taking disengagement. So the card doesn't say to fly, so it doesn't fly. The card doesn't say to take disengagement, so it doesn't take disengagement. Simple.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by bluekitsune13

Flying is a whole different ability though. That doesn't make sense to relate it to disengagement, if that's what you're trying to do jcb. I mean, I agree that it's something the designers just forgot about. Still, look what happened to Taelord. Isn't it officially declared he has stealth flying?

My understanding is that Taelord officially has regular flying and disengage, and that the disengage got left off his card. More a layout/printing error than a rules thing.

Originally Posted by Nooblar

Yeah, if your philosophy is "Do what the card says, not what it doesn't say," then TKN has no reason to take disengagement for this special ability, whereas other cards' special abilities specifically mention taking disengagement. So the card doesn't say to fly, so it doesn't fly. The card doesn't say to take disengagement, so it doesn't take disengagement. Simple.

Generally, when a card says "he will take any leaving engagement attacks" or the like, it's because the figure's powers are forcing a choice on you. You have a choice in how to move Raelin: 6 boostable walking, no disengage, or 6 boostable flying, no disengage. Spider-Man has a choice between 6 boostable walking, no disengage, or 4 unboostable "stealth flying." Taelord has a choice between 5 boostable walking with disengage or 5 boostable flying with disengage.

With TKN, there's no choice to make. He has one way to move: normal walking. Therefore, a reminder that he takes swipes when trample stomping was not needed. The designers didn't make an oversight, and the card doesn't need a reprint.

[Hahma]

He moves six with no free movement. It's pretty clear to me, I don't see the problem here. Only wishful thinking or youthful exuberance would lead somebody to confuse his stomp ablility within the confines of his movement of six (as well as being able to end on the space due to his doublebasedness), and his stomp ability meaning he can continue to move as long as he stomps successfully. IMHO.

[The Super Atheist]

Just compare him to Braxas. Braxas kills 3 things per turn. tor-kul-na would probably kill around the same amount. do you honestly think that hasbro would give him A FREE MOVE(S)?! to kill half of my army in one turn, and then finish off the rest the second turn? And then go and get healed by the nagrubs?

are you crazy?

[P_J_Keller]

It's late when I'm reading this, but doesn't the word "continue" mean that the stomp counts as normal movement?

If KTN starts out next to a squad figure, stomps him, and moves into that space, the fact that he is continuing movement means he used one movement point to stomp the figure.

If it did not count as a normal movement space the card would have to say "start" your normal movement after stomping an adjacent figure.

Another loophole is what if KTN is surrounded. He fails the first stomp, his movement ends. According to free move theorists, he can still try to stomp the other surrounding figures as any succesful stomps would not count as moves.

I've played with KTN a couple of times now and this question never came up. It has to be that the stomp counts as a move, otherwise he is just too powerful as Rÿchean pointed out.

And with this counting as a normal move comes the rules of disengagement so that question is eliminated also

[bluekitsune13]

It's late when I'm reading this, but doesn't the word "continue" mean that the stomp counts as normal movement?

If KTN starts out next to a squad figure, stomps him, and moves into that space, the fact that he is continuing movement means he used one movement point to stomp the figure.

If it did not count as a normal movement space the card would have to say "start" your normal movement after stomping an adjacent figure. [/quote]

I believe they chose the word "continue" because it signifies that the trample 1 space move is not part of his normal movement. Let me explain it this way. TKN moves 3 spaces of normal movement, and comes to an enemy figure. He pauses his normal movement, and successfully tramples the figure to move 1 more space. Afterwards, he still has 3 normal movement points left over, so he can continue.

Originally Posted by P_J_Keller

Another loophole is what if KTN is surrounded. He fails the first stomp, his movement ends. According to free move theorists, he can still try to stomp the other surrounding figures as any succesful stomps would not count as moves.

No, that's not true (free move theorists? You're making it sound like a conspiracy ) When it says that if you fail to squash the figure, TKN's normal movement ends. Thus, he can no longer trample any other figures because he is not during his movement phase any more. He can only trample figures when in his movement phase.

Originally Posted by P_J_Keller

I've played with KTN a couple of times now and this question never came up. It has to be that the stomp counts as a move, otherwise he is just too powerful as Rÿchean pointed out.

The guy is 220 points! He should be powerful! Plus the trample is hardly a game breaker if he gets a free move out of it. When would he ever trample more than 6 figures anyway? I find that it's quite easy to use heroes against him. The new Drake from SotM can rip him to shreds. He's also easily taken down with ranged squads. But still, like I said, he's 220 points. Every unit, given the right conditions (and perhaps a bit of luck) should be able to take down their points worth of units before they die.

Originally Posted by P_J_Keller

And with this counting as a normal move comes the rules of disengagement so that question is eliminated also

Since I don't think that his trample 1 hex move is normal movement, the question of disengagement is a valid one for me.

Also, let me add that I'm not trying to skew the rules for my benefit. I'm simply reading what the card says. And this is what I think the true intention was. Either way, we really need a ruling from Hasbro though, because the card is very vague.

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by bluekitsune13

--Here's the reason I think it is a free move. It says If the wound destroys the figure, [you must] move Tor-Kul-Na onto the space the figure occupied, and you may continue Tor-Kul-Na's [normal] movement." I put some extra words in brackets to help you understand. Since there is no "may," that implies that you have to move into that figure's space if you destroy it. It also says that afterward you may continue his normal movement.

I put the above part in bold because you need to stop doing that. The move TKN onto the space part is clearly required without the "you must" part that you are adding and the reason it says he may continue his movement is to make it clear that he can continue to move and attempt to trample stomp again if he destroyed a figure previously during his move.

Originally Posted by bluekitsune13

The guy is 220 points! He should be powerful! Plus the trample is hardly a game breaker if he gets a free move out of it. When would he ever trample more than 6 figures anyway?

Every hex on the board is valuable and the difference between move 5 versus move 7 is huge. Giving a figure even 1 hex of free movement can and will change the out come of a game. You can spin it is not game breaking if you like, but the fact is anytime a figure moves more than they should or are allowed, it does break the current game being played.

If he moves 3, tramples and destroys then picks up the free move you are suggesting, he now has moved 4 with 3 move value left and he moves 2 more hexes to another squad figure, to attempt to trample stomp again. By your interpretation, he gets to attempt to trample stomp on a figure that was not within his move value when he began his movement. If he destroys that last figure he now has the ability to move a total of 8 spaces during that move; that can be the difference between engaging a Krav and not engaging a Krav in a single move. It can be the difference between closing on a hill to attack a high ground sniper that was previously not within striking distance of TKN. It has a huge impact. Please don't down play the significance of a hex on the board.

Anything can be made to be vague if you try hard enough to muddy the water.

[bluekitsune13]

[quote="Rÿchean"]

Originally Posted by bluekitsune13

--Here's the reason I think it is a free move. It says If the wound destroys the figure, [you must] move Tor-Kul-Na onto the space the figure occupied, and you may continue Tor-Kul-Na's [normal] movement." I put some extra words in brackets to help you understand. Since there is no "may," that implies that you have to move into that figure's space if you destroy it. It also says that afterward you may continue his normal movement.

I put the above part in bold because you need to stop doing that. The move TKN onto the space part is clearly required without the "you must" part that you are adding and the only reason it says he may continue his movement is to make it clear that he can attempt to trample stomp again if he destroyed a figure previously during his move.['quote]

Those words in brackets aren't "adding anything extra" to the wording already on the card. I did that just for clarification. When it says "continue his movement," I interpret that as movement that requires move points, not the "free move" that you get from moving into the figure's space if you destroy him. Like I said before, when you attempt to trample a figure, you "pause" TKN's movement. If his trample fails, his movement officially "stops," so he would now be in his "attack phase" instead of his "movement phase" now. However, if he succeeds in his trample and destroys the figure, he automatically moves one space (the free move) and then "unpauses" his normal movement.

I can kind of see what you're getting at though. We both agree that the 1 space that he moves when he tramples a figure is forced, right? Do you think that TKN can trample a figure if he moves at his full movement of 6 spaces? I'm sure we could argue that if he moves 6 spaces, he is no longer "at any point while moving." That means that he couldn't trample figures, because he wouldn't have any move points left over, right? At least according to your interpretation. However, even if I did think that his trample move consumes move points, I would still think that he could trample after moving 6 spaces, so potentially moving 7 spaces. However, that throws the whole "trample move consuming move points" arguement. If he uses move points for his trample move, he can only trample figures after moving 5 spaces!

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

Every hex on the board is valuable and the difference between move 5 versus move 7 is huge. Giving a figure even 1 hex of free movement can and will change the out come of a game. You can spin it is not game breaking if you like, but the fact is anytime a figure moves more than they should or are allowed it does break the current game being played.

If he moves 3, tramples and destroys then picks up the free move you are suggesting, he now has moved 4 with 3 move value left and he moves 2 more hexes to another squad figure, to attempt to trample stomp again.

By you interpretation, he gets to attempt to trample stomp on a figure that was not within his move value when he began his movement. If he destroys that last figure he moves a total of 8 spaces during his move; that can be the difference between engaging a Krav and not engaging a Krav in a single move. It can be the difference between closing on a hill to attack a high ground sniper that was previously not within striking distance of TKN. It has a huge impact. Please don't down play the significance of a hex on the board.

Anything can be made to be vague if you try hard enough to muddy the water.

Like I said, I'm not trying to put a spin on anything. I am simply reading the card the way it is written. That is the way I read it. And yes, I do know the significance of a single hex, and I don't think this power is game breaking at all.

[Su_Nan]

This whole issue is simple. If it takes one movement point when you move through a figure via. Phantom Walk or Ghost Walk, then it takes one movement point to stomp. Since both Trample Stomp and Phantom walk are about moving onto a space that is occupied by an enemy, and since Phantom Walk takes one movement point, then shouldn't Trample Stomp do the same?

It doesn't say on Phantom Walk that you don't get a free move when you go through the figure, much like on TKN's card for Trample Stomp. So why would you think the same goes for TKN?

[that guy]

The most important word on his card is WHILE. WHILE MOVING. It doesn't say move next to a figure, stop, roll the D20 and move into his space for free if it dies. It says WHILE moving. You are already using a point to move into the figure the D20 let's you know if you can do it or not. I can't believe this argument.

[bluekitsune13]

Maybe I'm just very daft, or I can't read as well as I thought.

Phantom Walk states: X can move through all figure, and is never attacked when leaving engagements. Phantom walk applies to "normal" movement. I do not see where TKN's card states that his 1 hex trample movement is considered "normal."

For those who think that it doesn't consume move points to trample, answer this question. Can TKN trample another figure if he moved 6 spaces? Like I wrote above, I would consider his 6th space moved to be "during his movement," so he could roll for the trample. However, if he did, he might move an extra 7th space.