Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

[superfrog]

At 2-2, Apocalypse Now is not inducted into WoS.

4 maps remain on the timer, leaving 2 slots open to immediately join the timer. We continue to welcome community nominations.

[Typhon2222]

@superfrog , @1Mmirg , @OEAO , @Flash_19 : THANK YOU, gents, for giving Apocalypse Now four thoughtful votes. Am grateful.

[Sheep]

Resubmitting Yngvild Pass.


Requires: 1 RotV and 1 TT
.PDF Download

Each pothole next to the glacier level 3 snow has been removed.
Added a level 1 ice space to each side of the glyph level 3 snow.

The new version was used at HexiCon and NE Ohio Basement Brawl (link to .org). It was also used online for CCL Qualifer #2

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Yngvild Pass by Sheep


Yngvild Pass is a really fun map. I watched several OHS games on it last week and it really made for good games across all the matchups that I was able to see.

Obviously it's most similar to Platypus, but it has two major advantages (both relating to the glyph areas) that in my opinion make it a superior map.

The first benefit is that the glyph area has an extra hex of width. This means it doesn't get clogged in the same way that Platypus can, and the glyph areas flow more freely.

The second benefit is that the central passages are also an extra hex wide, meaning that the level 3 run can be attacked from both sides. This is accomplished without adding much extra width to the map vs. Platypus (16 vs. 15 hexes wide) because the divider between the central lane and the glyph section is 0 hexes wide (a ruin) vs. 2 hexes wide (a 4-hex glacier).

I find the subtle asymmetry of the 2 ruins here very nice, both configurations protect the glyph from LoS on most/all of the level 3 run, and then the ruins are placed to avoid choke points as much as possible from there. With Percolator getting some upvotes recently, I'll just say here that this map would work nicely with either double small ruin or double large ruin, or (obviously) the way it's presented here.

I had one person ask me how a map can be good with so much height being same-level (26 level-3 hexes). I will note that this is comparable to some other WoS maps (Platypus has 18, H&D has 24), but I'll also point out that all the height runs here have some forward momentum to them, which means that in practice none of them feel campy.

to induct.

My thoughts on Yngvild Pass remain unchanged, and the updates here only improve it (although not very much, it's the same map by and large). Playing Ascension (which I also like) a few times recently has reminded me how difficult it is to have a great 1x RotV/1xTT map, and I think Yngvild Pass is (one of) the best we have.

to induct.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by Sheep

Resubmitting Yngvild Pass.


Requires: 1 RotV and 1 TT
.PDF Download

Each pothole next to the glacier level 3 snow has been removed.
Added a level 1 ice space to each side of the glyph level 3 snow.

The new version was used at HexiCon and NE Ohio Basement Brawl (link to .org). It was also used online for CCL Qualifer #2

Same as Superfrog, I'l give Yngwild Pass an upvote as I was about to upvote the first version and the second version seems even better.

I've played the first version bunch of times and the experience was always excellent.
While looking simple it's a map that brings a lot to the table with the big glacier and the ruin effectively cutting center of the map horizontally in 4 different zones. And all 4 different zone having super interesting micro-positioning choices.
It is a map that really shines with thoughtful glyphs selection from the tournament organizer but which also works fine without that.

The center in between the 2 part of the startzone is also a point of interest, but not too strong as it can't cover the glyphs zones, so figures in the glyphs zones have free reign over the startzone while the figures on height in between the startzones have nothing to attack. While I feel some level 3 near startones is often a problem but it isn't for me on this map, I actually even see this level 3 helping melee fight range in some situations.

While having no "melee helpers" sets on it, I feel melee is completely fine on this map, the map feels very nice is to navigate through, making attacking plays on the different zones very possible, or just simply forbidding range to settle there by being there first.
Incent to go forward is very high and the action usually start extremly fast, and almost everywhere at once.

The map is beautiful, very cohesive TT+RotV landscape.

While not looking complicated, Yngwild Pass checks all the criterias of a great tournament map and should be part of the Wargrounds of Scape. YES to induct.

[Typhon2222]

Good people, I think I should withdraw Mime Raths from consideration. I don't think it's a very strong contender.

But @MegaSilver , you rock for having nominated it. Thanks for the vote of confidence — so glad you like it.

[Typhon2222]

With ScapeCon East now concluded and some feedback in, I guess I'll nominate my Odin Wept to the WoS.

Odin Wept
Uses: 1 BftU, 1 TT, 1 VW



An earlier version of the map was selected for ScapeCon 2022, but feedback from the event revealed some problems. That version's 3-hex outcrops/glaciers were positioned further forward. As a result, the map could be abused by ranged pods setting up shop on the big 24-hex slab just outside the SZ.

This version solves that problem by moving the 3-hex glacier/outcrop closer to the SZ. And since it was posted 8 months ago, it has been used in at least 7 tournaments that I know about:

OST 3
Dallas Draft Tournament (4/30/23)
Utah Monthlies (5/27/23)
OHS 52
Utah Monthlies August 2023 (8/26/23)
Denver tournament (11/11/23)
ScapeCon East 2023 (Nov. 10-13, 2023)

Some feedback on it (and HUGE THANKS to everybody who gave it).....

from @Dignan (link): "It served us well. I enjoyed the game I had there and I saw a lot of interesting play on the map."

from @Grey Waves (link): "This map feels very unique compared to most of the maps I've played on in tournaments, thanks in part to the unconventional terrain combo. I love the jump from level 0 to level 2 straight out of the start zone and how the glacier kind of forces you to pick one side or the other (but figures can still move smoothly from one side to the other if they need to). The shadow tiles are placed very well, and the glyphs are just out of the way enough that you need to put in effort to grab them, but not to the point where they feel unreachable. I haven't got to play as many games on this one so far, but I'm definitely looking forward to playing on it again in the future."

And from the recent ScapeCon East:

from @Shurrig (link): "....I’m always impressed with how much Typhon can get away with with such a limited terrain combo. Those 24-hexes a placed quite precariously, but just getting them up to level 2 is quite the achievement. My games on Odin Wept were fun even though I was 0-2 on it for the weekend, and neither losses felt like they were the map’s fault. It’s quite small which is good for melee and I really enjoyed the interactions between the lava and shadow tiles here. If it were at all possible to open up that level 2 lane of shadow to prevent the lava speed bump it’d make me like the map that much more, but as it is it’s still quite good."

from @Foudzing (private message): "Well the new version seems like a complete success to me, also did hear only good things about the map. The shadow lava combo is just such a sick combo gameplay-wise, the map seems very balanced range vs melee, it's just bumpy enough for range to get few free attacks but not much."

Finally, as for terrain.... I think its unique combination of terrain sets it apart, and would help fill a niche that no other map in the WoS currently does. And its requirement of only 1 dungeon set will make it more flexible than those dungeon maps which call for 2.

Thanks for your consideration!

P.S. @superfrog encouraged me to nominate the map. So if you don't like it, blame frog!

[superfrog]

I still have yet to play this map but I am excited to review it

[Shurrig]

Great map Typhon, happy to see it nominated!

[Shurrig]

I'd like to submit a nomination for the removal of Fulcrum from the WoS.



As of yet, I do not think there has been a map that has gone up for reconsideration for the WoS. I've spoken with some of the judges from the WoS about this map and they seemed to more or less agree with my thoughts, and after playing on this map the most out of any other maps at Scapecon East I believe Fulcrum does not hold up to the standards of the modern competitive map meta. You can check out my abridged thoughts on this map here in the Tournament Map Feedback Thread, but I'm going to expand on those thoughts here as well, as this nomination for removal does not come lightly.

The biggest issue for me is that there is no reason to develop left on this map. Yes, you are often not sacrificing any movement from your front line going that way, but your back line as well as 4-movers will spend at minimum a full round trying just to get up on that hill, all the while your opponent gets to shoot at you from height either on that level three 3-hex or the hill they've most certainly beaten you to. The right side is simply way too powerful for range, and if you don't have flying, good luck. Speaking of flying range, Zelrig loves this map. So does Mimring. Oh, so does Nilfheim. All three of these dragons can safely bomb your start zones in one to two turns, no problem. Me-Burq-Sa as well, who will happily hop between hills while your Death Chasers rush your opponents given how small the map is. The size of the map would usually be a plus for melee 90 percent of the time, in my experience Death Chasers had no problem, but more often than not the center is too chokey for it to be of any use, so melee is stuck scratching their heads figuring out what it is they want to do.

Furthermore, and maybe this falls more into the opinion category of critiques, I don't think this map utilizes its terrain very well. I've compared this map to Percolator before to demonstrate my point, but I'll reiterate again that that map just does the terrain combo better. So does another one of Ulysses's maps, Flaxen Shard. The jungle placement here is just very problematic. When the range that was already shooting at you from level three height out the start zone gets cover as well, I look at that and truly wonder why. To be fair I don't think the level three spots in the middle are as bad, but even then you have that one hex on level four on either hill that is a concern.

My intention here is not to nominate a removal of a well-established map for the sole sake of doing so. I think Dignan is an incredible map maker and was one of those cartographers that inspired me to start making my own maps. However, time and time again this map has only further shown that its flaws competitively far outweigh its novelty in uniqueness and design. I believe there may be ways to retool this map to fit the standards of today's modern competitve map pool (Dark Fulcrum, for example), but for now Fulcrum just creates way too many problems for me to ever want to play on it in tournament.

[superfrog]

Thanks for the nomination. Certainly removing a WoS map is not something we’d do lightly, but the ability to do so was an important feature of the new rules we launched 2 years ago.

Reminder of the process: anybody can nominate a map for reconsideration, and it enters it queue like a normal nomination. If it again receives 75% or more of the votes cast, it remains inducted. If it falls short of 75%, it is removed.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Shurrig

I'd like to submit a nomination for the removal of Fulcrum from the WoS.

I support this . Never been a fan of the original.